ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on November 17, 2015, 02:11:38 PM
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Humour me here...
You know those trigger water sprayers for plants?
Plastic Trigger Spray Bottle Plants Water Sprayer 500ML https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00D12GD0A/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_R1Tswb68VBA7W
The trigger could be mounted on the left handlebar, just like a clutch lever. The nozzle (or multiple nozzles) could be suspended over the motor and the water bottle could go in the frunk. It would be no different than the spray that hits the motor when it's raining, so it shouldn't do any harm. A few squirts to wet the fins would be a bit like blowing on a hot cup of tea. I can't help thinking it could make a difference!
This one's for you Lipo. What do you think? It could be quite fun too. You might even leave a cloud of steam trailing behind you which might turn a few heads!
Feel free to vote below:
Bonkers or worth a try? [emoji4]
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I can make a napkin calculation for you but for that I will need the weight of the motor and the surface area that you plan to spray.
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I couldn't tell you on either count Erasmo. I don't think it's trivial to work out. However, it would be interesting to know how much heat would dissipate from a surface area of 100 cm squared at 90 degrees Celsius with 5 millilitres of water spread over it. Is that something you can work out?
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I could do that later at home but the result will probably be far too high since most of the water will be blown of the motor surface before it has a change to evaporate.
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Very kind of you Erasmo but I think we need a practical test:
Run a motor up to max a few times and see how long it takes to cool. Then do a run, pull over, spray the motor and get back on it to see if it makes a difference. I wouldn't encourage anyone to try spraying with a squirty bottle whilst riding. You'd need a proper setup for that. If you wanted to get serious an inline electric pump would get better results, especially with multiple nozzles providing a good drenching for a couple of seconds. A button on the handlebar to activate the pump and it would feel like having DRS in formula one for overtaking! You'd also have the pleasure of dumping a cloud of steam on the cars as you pulled in front of them. [emoji1]
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Turbo charged cars can (and do) have water jets to spray water on intermittently the intercooler. Its just a fine mist as the act of evaporation draws heat out of the radiator. It is not saturated with water.
The setup is a bit different as an intercooler is made of very thin material. But any water sprayed onto the motor would take out heat for sure. Just put a chunk of hot steel under the tap for a few seconds and it's cold. You could not saturate the motor as it would take a huge amount of water to cool for a long time.
A fine spray is the way to go and intermittent to let it evaporate. The question is how much water how often to lower the motor temp as much as you need.
Give it a go as it will definitely do something.
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What if we had water passing all around and maybe through the motor inside thin heat conducting tubes. Then instead of having to have a big drum of water we collected the water in an area that would be in the air stream so it would cool faster and then go back through the motor in a closed system. What to call it though ummm circulator passthoughlator I know radiator :) Sorry had to do it the joke was just begging for it. But while we are talking about cooling the motor I work around hundreds of motors most I see are rated at 1 to 5 HP on one end is their drive shaft and at the other is a fan blade only about an inch thick with a pretty good pitch blowing air over the motor and cooling fins. It has a mesh guard over the fan blade. They are all fixed on a conveyor system so no air passing over them at all. I figure it couldn't hurt as your just using the motor rpms to spin a small light fan blade.
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Kinda like what I do on my setup, but co2> water
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check the 2013- 2014 motor swap post for more pictures and discussion on cooling.
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And then there is mr badass cooling^^^^
Clearly not to many people clicked on the picture he posted
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Clearly not to many people clicked on the picture he posted
First thing I did was click the link to see what was being proposed before reading anything, thinking it was some awesome flush tapped and plumped water cooling system feed off the natural vortex force of the motor through a radiator near the front of the bike (because that is exactly what we need ... more fluids on electric bikes :/ )
I then cracked up laughing :D
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Sorry I meant blow up deans picture on the other thread of his go kart motor cooling..... It's interesting to say the least.....
The mist would have less effect than 1 20 oz bottle of liquid co2 blown over the fins, and does even more if it's blown inside the motor.... Single bottle will give you 15 degrees 2 bottles sprayed efficiently can bring the motor and controller to a little above ambiant temps
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Watercooling - brakes do it.
I recall back in my younger days (and others may remember better) there was a Camaro/Firebird/TransAm racing series with "identically prepared cars".
One exception to being stock I recall was a water spray into the brakes.
Googling water brake cooling still seems to be a thing. 100psi pumps seems to be in target and multiple nozzles offer plenty of control in an "undercarraige" environment.
i think it is very plausible to cool a race motor the same way. not for me though - it's raining these next few days and slipping to sub freezing temps later this week - so I don't see overheating to be problem for me in the near future.
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Here's a link back to Dean's post so you can zoom in on the motor:
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5218.msg36570#msg36570
I need to get my head around the IPM motor but one key point I've gathered from Burton's topic is that the heat builds up in the stator. That's the bit in the middle that goes round.
My understanding is that apart from the bearings, the stator doesn't touch anything. So apart from the tiny volume of air inside the motor, which isn't ventilated, there's no way to draw the heat out of the stator. That explains people drilling holes in the casing to get some airflow in there. That's a bit nuts though for anything other than racing.
Therefore the only way heat is dissipated from the stator is via radiation to the casing and a little conduction through the bearings. I'm not surprised they get hot quickly!
Using liquid co2 seems a little extreme, but must be effective!
My idea wasn't a piss-take at Lipo by the way, just in case anyone got that impression. If I do manage to get my hands on a Zero without selling a kidney, I'll give the water spray a go!
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My understanding is that apart from the bearings, the stator doesn't touch anything. So apart from the tiny volume of air inside the motor, which isn't ventilated, there's no way to draw the heat out of the stator.
Therefore the only way heat is dissipated from the stator is via radiation to the casing and a little conduction through the bearings. I'm not surprised they get hot quickly!
I believe you've hit the nail on the head, other than getting the terminology bass-ackwards (the rotor is the thing in the middle that turns, the stator is the outer housing that's stationary, hence "rotor" and "stator"). Besides it being difficult to get heat through the long path through the bearings, it can't possibly be good for the bearings! I'm pretty sure this is why filling the motor halfway with ATF works so well -- it provides a much shorter path for the heat to travel to the fins on the external housing. The distance between the rotor and stator windings is very small, but if it's air filling the gap it doesn't conduct heat very well at all. Any liquid will conduct heat much better than an air gap.
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Cheers Doug. Love the bass-ackward. New word for my dictionary!
I guess the IPM motor is the real Eureka moment, and by Zero themselves. A performance factor close to 1, I gather from YouTube. Not much room for heat wastage if you're close to 100% efficiency in a motor. Astonishing really.
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Not sure what to make of the posts on water cooling. I never claimed to be an engineer . I thought this forum was an opportunity for everyone novice and expert to discuss and work out problems. Even if heat in the rotor is a big problem , the heat it transfers to the stator and stator temperature is the real problem. I don't care if the rotor glows red, as long as the stator stays within tolerance. Moving more of the heat to the stator with oil only moves the problem, yes you can cool the oil. But I haven't seen good system for that yet. Im trying to cool the stator and water cooling is more than 7 times more efficient than air cooling. No , Im not using the motor set up on a street bike or a race bike, Im running it on a kart- total weight with driver less than 475lbs. We are competing against gas karts in the TAG and Shifter class. If electrics can be shown to be competitive ,head to head, in kart racing, the potential market for the components is more than current zero motorcycle production! It would be a huge WIN for electric motorcycles for there component sales to more than double. The Rattlesnake guys are on the fore front of what could be a huge bubble that will benefit everyone. Everytime I take the kart out , everyone is surprised when I tell them what the components are off of. People have never heard of Zero or Lightning. And these are gearheads Im talking to. They are unaware of the leaps that electric vehicles have taken. I had hopes that the electric motorcycle community would welcome karts. We can help each other.
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Dean, speaking for myself, I had no intention of being derogatory in any way. I think what you're doing is cool as hell, I want one, and I'll probably get one when I've made my second million (assuming I ever finish the first one). And I'd be REALLY surprised if the rest of the guys here don't feel exactly the same way.
I don't know either, but I suspect you're right that the majority of the heat is generated in the stator -- that's where the coils are attached, after all, and they're what those 660-amp currents flow through. What you're doing is fantastic in terms of pulling heat out of the stator. But the rotor might give you some grief, too.
You might think since it's just a bunch of magnets epoxied to a shaft that there's nothing generating heat, but the magnets have "hysteresis" and when you put strong magnetic fields on them (like the coils do when the motor is being energized) the hysteresis causes a fair amount of heat to be created in the magnets as well. It's not as much heat as the stator generates, probably, but it's harder to get rid of (as we've been discussing) and magnets in general don't like heat very much. It's my understanding that higher-temperature magnets and the epoxy securing them to the rotor is what distinguished the SR motor from the S motor in 2014 and 2015. My bike (an early 2014 SR) was recalled along with several others because the first few motors failed to get the higher-temperature magnets and/or epoxy.
In addition to the great work you're doing, I'd seriously consider half-filling the motor with Automatic Transmission Fluid, as some have done, or maybe some of the new ferrofluids others have posted about. Make it easier for the rotor to get its heat to the stator and your stator cooling work will be that much more effective.
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I am by no means an expert but based on what I have read, for an SPM design the thermal challenge is in the rotor. If the rotor gets too hot you can have demagnetization. As has been stated, its not so easy to get heat out of the rotor. The heat sinks and airflow around the stator help but you are really fighting that air gap in the heat transfer. Zero fights this in the 2014/2015 SR by using magnets that can withstand higher temperatures before they demagnetize. Hot rodders combat this further by slotting the side plates to allow air to flow through the motor and cool the rotor directly, which is great for removing heat but not so great for the long term life of the motor (dirt, dust, water, rust etc are not so great for the inside of the motor).
I think its important to keep in mind that the temp sensor on the motor is on the stator. If you rely on the sensor to tell you if the mod you make is effectively cooling the part of the motor that needs to be kept cool (the magnets) its possible you could actually do damage to the motor. The stator where the temp sensor is may be cooler and allow the controller to keep the motor at full power but the rotor may still be getting too hot and demagnetization starts to happen. And demagnetization doesn't occur all at once....does your Zero not seem as peppy as it once did? Zero's engineers know the stator temps that translate to a rotor/magnets that are too hot. I am by no means a guy who discourages modding (I love it in fact) but if you mess with the equation you do so at your own risk....but I think that goes without saying ;)
IPM designs, on the other hand, do not generate a significant amount of heat in the rotor. According to one website I found, "roughly 90% of the motor losses tend to occur in the stator, which can be easily cooled by heat sinking, oil cooling, or watercooling".
Thats why Zero's shift to the IPM design is so huge. Even though the motor still gets hot, the heat sink and airflow around the stator are much more effective at removing the heat. Here is a good commentary on YouTube from motorcycle.com on how a Zero rep described the process.
2016 Zero FXS - AIMExpo (https://youtu.be/HwXTugXJB4k?t=46)
Here is my source for info on SPM vs IPM....its a great read and has additional details about the benefits of IPM.
Interior Permanent Magnet Motors Power Traction Motor Applications (http://www.motioncontrolonline.org/content-detail.cfm/Motion-Control-Technical-Features/Interior-Permanent-Magnet-Motors-Power-Traction-Motor-Applications/content_id/789)
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I am by no means an expert but based on what I have read, for an SPM design the thermal challenge is in the rotor. If the rotor gets too hot you can have demagnetization. As has been stated, its not so easy to get heat out of the rotor. The heat sinks and airflow around the stator help but you are really fighting that air gap in the heat transfer. Zero fights this in the 2014/2015 SR by using magnets that can withstand higher temperatures before they demagnetize. Hot rodders combat this further by slotting the side plates to allow air to flow through the motor and cool the rotor directly, which is great for removing heat but not so great for the long term life of the motor (dirt, dust, water, rust etc are not so great for the inside of the motor).
I think its important to keep in mind that the temp sensor on the motor is on the stator. If you rely on the sensor to tell you if the mod you make is effectively cooling the part of the motor that needs to be kept cool (the magnets) its possible you could actually do damage to the motor. The stator where the temp sensor is may be cooler and allow the controller to keep the motor at full power but the rotor may still be getting too hot and demagnetization starts to happen. And demagnetization doesn't occur all at once....does your Zero not seem as peppy as it once did? Zero's engineers know the stator temps that translate to a rotor/magnets that are too hot. I am by no means a guy who discourages modding (I love it in fact) but if you mess with the equation you do so at your own risk....but I think that goes without saying ;)
IPM designs, on the other hand, do not generate a significant amount of heat in the rotor. According to one website I found, "roughly 90% of the motor losses tend to occur in the stator, which can be easily cooled by heat sinking, oil cooling, or watercooling".
Thats why Zero's shift to the IPM design is so huge. Even though the motor still gets hot, the heat sink and airflow around the stator are much more effective at removing the heat. Here is a good commentary on YouTube from motorcycle.com on how a Zero rep described the process.
2016 Zero FXS - AIMExpo (https://youtu.be/HwXTugXJB4k?t=46)
Here is my source for info on SPM vs IPM....its a great read and has additional details about the benefits of IPM.
Interior Permanent Magnet Motors Power Traction Motor Applications (http://www.motioncontrolonline.org/content-detail.cfm/Motion-Control-Technical-Features/Interior-Permanent-Magnet-Motors-Power-Traction-Motor-Applications/content_id/789)
I always assumed the magnets got hot from the radient heat of the stator. Are you saying a magnetic field applied to a magnet will make it heat up?
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This forum is absolutely for both novices, like myself, and experts to get together, discuss and work out problems. I'm sorry if I've played any part in upsetting you Dean. You really are in great company here, as I hope the last two posts demonstrate.
This thread is a great example of this forum at work. I presented what could easily be interpreted as a silly idea. I also like to think it had some merit, which seems to have resonated with a few. For others, it has been a source of amusement and that's fine too. I don't think a bit of humor does any harm every now and again. We all do stuff just for shits and giggles. [emoji4]
From my point of view, I was interested in both the overheating issue and the new IPM motor. I now have a good understanding of both, thanks to the posts here.
I think you'll find we're with you 100% Dean. People are in awe of what you have achieved with your Kart and it's great to see different uses for the Zero powertrain. Thank you.
I was doing some research yesterday and came across this video:
http://youtu.be/1bV8W5DZClQ
It's the application of an IPM motor in a kart.
The two key conclusions I draw from this topic are:
IPM motors are cool! If you'll excuse the terrible pun... [emoji6]
Seriously though, they were mentioned in the topic on the 2016 model announcements as probably the biggest improvement for this iteration.
Secondly, the point made about the thermistor living in the stator shouldn't be ignored. The best way to damage your motor, other than by drilling holes in it, is to let the rotor get too hot. Providing extra cooling to the casing, whether using water, dry ice, heat pipes or whatever will trick the system and likely result in damage. The exception to that being the use of ATF in the motor to pull heat from the rotor.
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I always assumed the magnets got hot from the radient heat of the stator. Are you saying a magnetic field applied to a magnet will make it heat up?
Both of those. It's all in that article which is well worth a read. [emoji4]
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Great information on the cooling…I was not aware of the ATF option…How many forum members have tried it?
Have we got any feedback? it looks like a good first step + external water cooling
I'm thinking in emailing Zero engineering with my cooling proposal…see photo ;D
Hope nobody gets offended…just trying to add some sense of humor to the topic...
I always assumed the magnets got hot from the radient heat of the stator. Are you saying a magnetic field applied to a magnet will make it heat up?
Both of those. It's all in that article which is well worth a read. [emoji4]
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Wow, awesome reading, thanks for the link mrwilson, does anyone know if the zero ipm motor is a concentrated design or distributed
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Hope nobody gets offended…just trying to add some sense of humor to the topic...
LMFAO....is the fan for cooling or propulsion? Or Both? hahaha
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Most likely to get the 2 stroke exhaust away from the driver!
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I appreciate your positive comments. The support is greatly appreciated. Zero currently has a setup that with a little tweeking can be competitive in karting. TAG and shifter karts are expensive to purchase AND expensive to maintain. They require constant maintenance. Thanks to zero, Hollywood Electric,Rattlesnake, and forums like this one, many in the karting field are finding out that its possible and cost competitive to build electric karts. The initial cost is close to shifter class cost ,however there is very little maintenance. Some Shifter motors must be completely rebuilt after only 20 gallons of fuel and the cost is around $1000. The motors themselves cost $4500. There is ever increasing pressure to reduce noise. The electric format eliminates many of the problems confronting karting today. Zero and other manufactures have a great opportunity to significantly increase there sales, component sales can provide a SIGNIFICANT source of needed funds to be used on R&D while also providing the manufacturers with a test bed for no cost R&D. This is a WIN /WIN relationship and the first manufacturers to support this will reap the benefits. Its now possible to simply convert a shifter kart to electric in a few hours, with little electrical engineering experience. We just need to work out a few problems -COOLING. Motor cooling- the ATF doesnt damage any of the internals? I not familiar with it. What about using the ATF to spread out the heat and water cooling to remove it. The radiator set up is light , No heavier than the bilge blower and in my case a reduction transformer to run it. Next BATTERIES, are there any pictures of one of the power packs skinned. There must be a way to ventilated or liquid cool these things- they are bricks. Im very interested in a the cooling plate for the controller, for my application it will be the final component to require cooling.THere should be a way to integrate the cooling for all these components.
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Hope nobody gets offended…just trying to add some sense of humor to the topic...
LMFAO....is the fan for cooling or propulsion? Or Both? hahaha
It is actually a high-tech bi-energy low-emissions model…the design is made in a way that when you go through exhaust/emissions inspection the internal combustion engine goes off automatically, and you ride the bike with the fan (not as sophisticated as Volkswagen, but pretty close ;D ;D
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Dean,
Send a message to Doctorbass as he has taken apart 2012 model batteries and might have something to offer you.
Which batteries are you working with the FX modules or a monolith?
As far as cooling the controller it shouldn't be too hard to find a cooling plate for the controller. ATF is used to get the heat from the rotor to the casing easier ... what you do with it when it gets there is up to you ;) If the ferrofluid ends up working on our motors it might be a better option as less would be needed and it likely won't damage anything.
Not sure on the ATF but I hear of people racing who have used it before (hope they are watching this thread)
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The batteries are 2014 power tanks. I will contact Doctorbass. thanks
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Deans motor cooling pics. Gotta give it to you man!!! Impressive out the box thinking.
Machined smooth
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/38C9E0EF-0FBA-402F-A4A5-EB3EA41BCA62_zpsspvmer1p.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/38C9E0EF-0FBA-402F-A4A5-EB3EA41BCA62_zpsspvmer1p.jpg.html)
And I can imagine how you felt when you got this on!!! Accomplished!!!
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/8ADFA2A6-3F26-46DD-AB30-F9F8934F84CD_zpsehrdl6l5.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/8ADFA2A6-3F26-46DD-AB30-F9F8934F84CD_zpsehrdl6l5.jpg.html)
I don't think you can safely pull the skin of a fx brick, the top connector plug and bms further insulate the batt, I would almost think a cooling plate for them to sit on and maybe on 2 sides might help a little bit the potting material inside the battery will also greatly hinder getting cool anything to the cells
Water cooling plate
The start
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/D741FBD0-65AA-4FC2-A21B-98FBAA748BBE_zpsz9catprd.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/D741FBD0-65AA-4FC2-A21B-98FBAA748BBE_zpsz9catprd.jpg.html)
I can't find the other pic for the life of me I'll grab a pic when I get home
When I actually go karting, here's the dogs $2500 pillow LOL
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/AE2BE7F8-B1E6-4E46-B6E0-0B3CBDAF699E_zpsdugyvgec.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/AE2BE7F8-B1E6-4E46-B6E0-0B3CBDAF699E_zpsdugyvgec.jpg.html)
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Very cool how you essentially made two identical "C water cooling heat syncs" to literally strap on the motor :)
Dean did you weld this or have someone do that for you?
I bet this thing accelerates hard.
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Thanks to zero, Hollywood Electric,Rattlesnake, and forums like this one, many in the karting field are finding out that its possible and cost competitive to build electric karts. Zero and other manufactures have a great opportunity to significantly increase there sales, component sales can provide a SIGNIFICANT source of needed funds to be used on R&D while also providing the manufacturers with a test bed for no cost R&D. This is a WIN /WIN relationship and the first manufacturers to support this will reap the benefits. Its now possible to simply convert a shifter kart to electric in a few hours, with little electrical engineering experience. We just need to work out a few problems -COOLING.
2016 could be a good year for karting. Zero says they will sell their drive train components to consumers in 2016. I think Burton said a 2014 SR motor cost him $1600 and I would expect the new IPM motor for 2016 might be a little more but should be in the ball park. The new IPM motor for 2016 will stay a lot cooler in the first place and a liquid cooling solution applied to the stator for added cooling should be much more effective.
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Mrwilsn,
This would mean Dean has time to work out the kinks in his water cooling solution before applying it to a IPM should he choose to upgrade.
And given with things like this we often create as a first, whatever he finds as issues he can resolve and make a second unit for the IPM even better ... then sell of his first motor with a premium to another kart racer.
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Mrwilsn,
This would mean Dean has time to work out the kinks in his water cooling solution before applying it to a IPM should he choose to upgrade.
And given with things like this we often create as a first, whatever he finds as issues he can resolve and make a second unit for the IPM even better ... then sell of his first motor with a premium to another kart racer.
I'm all for it! I hope Dean keeps us posted on performance improvements [emoji2]
I'm really curious to know what the bottle neck is on top speed with the new IPM motor. Seems like the motor itself should be capable of higher top speed. Need a bigger controller? Higher voltage pack? Lower coefficient of drag? Better cooling to motor, controller or battery?
Lower coefficient of drag is a gimee. You WILL reach higher top end at the same power if you make it easier to slip through the air (without adding significant weight). The only question is how much.
Bottom line, IPM motor should be capable of doing higher RPM. So if I want to get to 150mph without sacrificing 0-60 time, what do you have to do to get there? And if you can't get there, what top end can be achieved and what do you have to do to the bike to get there?
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
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My guess is that Zero only had the time and resources to bring the IPM motor to market in the same package as the 2015 SR motor. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2017 models bring a new controller that allows higher rpm and more power.
That's pure speculation, based on no info at all! I haven't even checked the specs for the 2016 SR to see if the numbers are any different. I'm also assuming the case is the same and it's just the internals that are fundamentally different.
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Regarding specs, I just compared the 2015 SR specs to the 2016 specs for SR and DSR, and noticed that the SR belt went from 132T/30T on the SR to 130T/30T without changing the top speed (granted, it's likely a rounding error or oversight), and top sustained speed went from 85mph to 95mph as already noticed.
All the other changes relate to battery capacity. IPM is literally just used to make the bike more robust at high outputs, at least for now.
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Regarding specs, I just compared the 2015 SR specs to the 2016 specs for SR and DSR, and noticed that the SR belt went from 132T/30T on the SR to 130T/30T without changing the top speed (granted, it's likely a rounding error or oversight), and top sustained speed went from 85mph to 95mph as already noticed.
All the other changes relate to battery capacity. IPM is literally just used to make the bike more robust at high outputs, at least for now.
I noticed the same thing when I was combing through the specs right after the announcement. I'm not so sure it's a typo based on what I have been reading about IPM but it would explain a lot.
Assuming its not a typo, I can't figure out how Zero was able to change the gearing on the Zero SR from 2015 to 2016 and yet the 0-60 time and top speed didn't change. The new IPM motor puts out the same torque, weight stayed the same at 414lbs, and same motor controller.
The reduction in the number of teeth on the rear sprocket from 132T to 130T should result in higher speed but lower torque at the wheel.
Zero could limit the motor to a lower rpm in 2016 to keep the top speed the same. If they didn't and the gear ratios changed and the motor specs for the new IPM really are the same as the SPM then the 0-60 time for 2016 should have changed (2016 should be slower than 2014/2015) and the top speed should have also changed (2016 should have higher top end than 2014/2015).
However, the torque curves between an IPM and SPM are not the same. Which is why I am dying to see someone do a drag between a 2014/2015 SR and a 2016 SR to see if the times really are the same and if the top speed really is the same or if that's just what Zero is putting on paper. After winter, if I decide to trade in for the 2016 SR and no one has done it yet I am going to be on the hunt for someone with a 2014/2015 SR to perform the test myself. For that matter, I want to see someone do a shoot out between the two....are you listening Troy? ;) Of course the 2016 should win but I would really like to see someone's impressions after jumping from one bike to the other.....is there a noticeable difference other than the ability to maintain high speed without overheating?
Furthermore, I am dying to see what the new IPM can really do with some hot rodding....like say... liquid cooling....ahem....Dean...or it might even be as simple as some reprogramming of the SEVCON.
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My guess is that Zero only had the time and resources to bring the IPM motor to market in the same package as the 2015 SR motor. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2017 models bring a new controller that allows higher rpm and more power.
That's pure speculation, based on no info at all! I haven't even checked the specs for the 2016 SR to see if the numbers are any different. I'm also assuming the case is the same and it's just the internals that are fundamentally different.
Probably right about time and resources but likely because if they wanted to do that and stick with a SEVCON controller they would have to increase pack voltage. Current Zero's sit at about 116V fully charged. The Size 6 controller is the biggest controller SEVCON sells that operates at that voltage. To stick with the SEVCON Gen4 line they would have to go to a 150V (fully charged) pack (125V nominal). See the image below from the SEVCON spec sheet. Also note that the SEVCON controllers at the higher voltage have an asterisk saying they are not yet available.
Based on what I have read it sounds like Zero is pretty committed to the lower voltage packs but things can always change. Maybe the shift to the IPM was to lay the ground work for a move to a higher voltage pack and bigger controller. ;D
I have been wondering about the case of the motor too....I'm pretty sure Zero website is using the same close up picture for the 2016 as they are using for the 2015 so will have to wait until seeing the real thing to know for sure.
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Thanks mrwilsn. What I find particularly interesting about those specs is the maximum sustained current for 60 minutes. The size 6 only manages 220A. That's a little less than half the current required to provide the 50kW of power that the SR motor is rated at.
I appreciate that 220 continuous is still 32 hp and more than enough to sustain 70mph. In fact it's probably about twice as much power that's needed. At that rate the battery would be empty in less than half an hour on all but the 2016. It does highlight just how deceiving all these headline figures can be, yet we still grasp onto them.
My VFR produces up to 170hp at the crankshaft. That's likely to be 130-40 by the time it's been transmitted through the gearbox and drive shaft. That at max revs with the throttle wide open. It never gets used like that. The reality is that I'm probably only using about 50hp most of the time - if that!
I'm labouring the point... All of this does help understand how an engineer might design to the limits of one component, thinking that less heat will have to be dealt with than is found later in testing.
I have no idea how flexible the sevcon controllers are in the way they can be programmed. Obviously reasonably flexible, otherwise an IPM motor just wouldn't run. I suspect that they were designed for SPM motors though. I'd bet on an entirely new controller being required to get the most out of an IPM motor. I reckon this is a short term fix to deal with the heat, but in the same packaging. There's a great opportunity here for a brand new IPM motor, built from scratch to optimize the IPM technology. Higher revs, wider and flatter torque band, more power sustained for longer. A new controller of course.
Back in the real world, where Zero don't have millions to spend on R&D, I think that what's on offer is great! [emoji4]
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Question on the Waterjacketed Cooling.
If the liquid had magnetic/ferrous properties - would the system be self-circulating?
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Wow advanced question. I'm interested in the answer to it but I think if you can get the fluid levels right heat convection should circulate pretty well on its on. Your way might create cold fusion and would just be too embarrassing to discover it when you were just trying to cool a Kart motor :)
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Assuming its not a typo, I can't figure out how Zero was able to change the gearing on the Zero SR from 2015 to 2016 and yet the 0-60 time and top speed didn't change. The new IPM motor puts out the same torque, weight stayed the same at 414lbs, and same motor controller.
The reduction in the number of teeth on the rear sprocket from 132T to 130T should result in higher speed but lower torque at the wheel.
Zero could limit the motor to a lower rpm in 2016 to keep the top speed the same. If they didn't and the gear ratios changed and the motor specs for the new IPM really are the same as the SPM then the 0-60 time for 2016 should have changed (2016 should be slower than 2014/2015) and the top speed should have also changed (2016 should have higher top end than 2014/2015).
We're talking about a 1.5% difference in gearing. That's not going to make a noticeable change to either the acceleration (3.3s 0-60 to 3.35?) or the top speed, assuming RPM limited .. Zero probably just copied the values from last year.
The sustained top speed is the big change, and hopefully the IPM motors alleviate the majority of the overheating concerns some people had with the SPM motors.
Probably right about time and resources but likely because if they wanted to do that and stick with a SEVCON controller they would have to increase pack voltage. Current Zero's sit at about 116V fully charged. The Size 6 controller is the biggest controller SEVCON sells that operates at that voltage. To stick with the SEVCON Gen4 line they would have to go to a 150V (fully charged) pack (125V nominal). See the image below from the SEVCON spec sheet. Also note that the SEVCON controllers at the higher voltage have an asterisk saying they are not yet available.
Switching to the 150V Sevcon Gen4 G120 - assuming that line is shipping - wouldn't bring significant benefit. The max and continuous powers are slightly higher if at all for G120 over G80 (2 min rating: G120 is 29% higher voltage, G80 is 22% higher amps), and Zero would have to either use a smaller cell or use much larger bricks to build their bikes.
Sevcon has a high-voltage Gen5 motor controller sampling now, in production for early 2016. Comparing the 400V Gen5 Size 9 (http://gen5.sevcon.com/Gen5%20Size9%20flyer%20Old%20style%20V152.pdf) to the 400V Gen4 Size 8 (http://www.sevcon.com/media/2462/Gen4%20Size%208%20Aug%202013%20web.pdf), the Gen5 is slightly more compact (26% less volume), lighter (6.8 kg instead of 10 kg), and higher power (50% higher peak current, 33% higher 2 minute current).
The larger controllers are liquid-cooled, but if similar improvements make their way down to the low voltage controllers (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business_bup/12911951.North_East_electric_vehicle_firm_Sevcon_to_recruit_20_skilled_staff/), whenever they ship, then Zero should be able to pump even more power into the IPM motor. Single-brick FX can output 20 kW, so a 3 brick 50 kW S and 4 brick 70 kW SR seem reasonable.
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Back to the spray bottle.
Back in 2013 I was riding my Zero powered e-trike in the Inyo Mountains in mid-summer and I had problems with motor overheating on the steep switchback sections of trails. I started carrying one of those squirt bottles to spray the motor after stopping to let it cool. The water spray made a big difference in how long it took to get going again.
Trikester
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There you go! I knew it was a good idea!!! Thanks Trikester. [emoji4]
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What oil is spec for internal cooling for electric motors, and can you use it in the liquid cooling jacket.. Would it be possible to plumb the interior and jacks with one liquid?
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Just some input from info that I've gathered. I use an 75-7 motor in my R6 conversion.
-Filling half the interior of the motor with ATF or transformer oil helps greatly with cooling the SPM motor
-To my best knowledge the SPM 75-7 uses 120degC rated mags and the SPM 75-7R uses 150degC rated mags
-The SPM motor RPM is limited by the mags (lifting at higher rpms) and processor speed in the Sevcons
-The IPM motor should be able to spin faster on the same voltage with an upgraded Sevcon (Im sure they're working on this)
Related directly to the topic on hand. Farfle (user on here and over on ES) created and arduino controlled spray cooling system for the outrunner motor he build. Seemed to work ok, but the water spray started to get on his rear tire and caused him to crash at a track day. Care would need to be down to protect the rear tire from getting overspray or excess water dripping on it. I do think it is a good idea, but my motor case hasn't gotten hot enough for this to work effectively.
edit: 75-7 can have 130degC mags, would have to be 120degC based on standard mags available.
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I could cool the jacket first. Then. Spray the interior and have it drain in a sump to be circulated by the cooling pump. Dry sump system?
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Could you use ec6 or fluid xp? they are nonconductive , and could be circulated thru jackets and motor internal?
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You could pump from motor, dry sump, then radiator, cooling jackets, then spray internal. That would cool rotor and both sides of stator. These liquids do not absorb heat as well as plain water but if they can be sprayed directly on internals , a considerable amount of heat should be captured. ???
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Really useful info there Nuts, thanks. I hadn't thought about water getting on the rear tyre... D'oh!
I wonder how much drag is caused by having ATF in the motor? I'm not trying to be negative, it's just a thought. I also wonder if introducing a fluid inside the motor reduces the magnetic field somehow.
Dean: I can't help wondering if you're at risk of over-engineering a solution to a problem that will go away by swapping the motor out with an IPM model when available. However, since cost and time are going to be big factors, then the ATF solution sounds like a no brainer to me. Especially since you've already got a cooling jacket solution in place. In fact, I would say that half-filling your motor with ATF is essential to stop the rotor overheating. Just going back to the point made about the thermistor living in the stator.
Whatever you decide to do, I reckon you've got a long queue of people that would love to have a go in your kart! [emoji4]
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Just some input from info that I've gathered. I use an 75-7 motor in my R6 conversion.
-Filling half the interior of the motor with ATF or transformer oil helps greatly with cooling the SPM motor
-To my best knowledge the SPM 75-7 uses 130degC rated mags and the SPM 75-7R uses 150degC rated mags
-The SPM motor RPM is limited by the mags (lifting at higher rpms) and processor speed in the Sevcons
-The IPM motor should be able to spin faster on the same voltage with an upgraded Sevcon (Im sure they're working on this)
Related directly to the topic on hand. Farfle (user on here and over on ES) created and arduino controlled spray cooling system for the outrunner motor he build. Seemed to work ok, but the water spray started to get on his rear tire and caused him to crash at a track day. Care would need to be down to protect the rear tire from getting overspray or excess water dripping on it. I do think it is a good idea, but my motor case hasn't gotten hot enough for this to work effectively.
This is good information, thanks…I believe at this point we all understand why the Temp indicator has a "built in error/margin" as 130c is not much, and we know what happens when you exceed the magnet operating temperature…not sure why Zero did not use the 150c -or higher- first place >:( as far as I know there are commercially available 200c neodymium magnets...
It is concerning in countries like Spain, where temperatures can go pretty high why they did not include those 150c first place…anyway, shame on the engineering department (another manufacturer that designs locally and sells worldwide) >:(
If any of you are interested in further information about magnets temp challenges take a look at this site:
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=temperature-and-neodymium-magnets (https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=temperature-and-neodymium-magnets)
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Lipo423,
I think you need to learn more abou available magnets. Higher temperature magnets become more expensive for the same strength and they also have a lower maximum strength available. I do not know the grade of magnet in the motors, but it is probably not possible to go to a mag greater than 150degC without having a lower strength. This means both lower torque output and lower efficiency at full current.
Additionally realize that the system as a whole should be balanced. Zero realized that the motor was the bottleneck thermally and has made changes to fix that with the SR motor, etc. Make the motor too good and you start overheating your controller and battery. So you might pay more for better magnets, but not get better performance because you've reached the limit on something else.
Realize with the IPM motor, Zero can use lower strength magnets and stil get the same torque output. This means they either save money on the magnets or they can go to even higher temperature magnets if they want. My guess is they saved money due to the lower losses and better thermal performance of the IPM motor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ah, yes: "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link". ;)
Trikester
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Lipo423,
I think you need to learn more abou available magnets. Higher temperature magnets become more expensive for the same strength and they also have a lower maximum strength available. I do not know the grade of magnet in the motors, but it is probably not possible to go to a mag greater than 150degC without having a lower strength. This means both lower torque output and lower efficiency at full current.
Additionally realize that the system as a whole should be balanced. Zero realized that the motor was the bottleneck thermally and has made changes to fix that with the SR motor, etc. Make the motor too good and you start overheating your controller and battery. So you might pay more for better magnets, but not get better performance because you've reached the limit on something else.
Realize with the IPM motor, Zero can use lower strength magnets and stil get the same torque output. This means they either save money on the magnets or they can go to even higher temperature magnets if they want. My guess is they saved money due to the lower losses and better thermal performance of the IPM motor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I definitely need to learn more about magnets, no question…my level of expertise goes more in electronics/control and batteries. That being said I would appreciate you help, as it looks like you know more than me.
-How many magnets does the motor have?
- What is the type? (N30, 40, 45, etc…)
Also, if you check the link below you will notice the level of strength in the high temp magnets is very similar to the lower temp ones…(in grade 30-45, I really doubt Zero is using higher grade than that)
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp (https://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp)
Concerning the controller and battery, I would agree -conceptually- with your statement (it is obvious), but I would disagree that this is the reason as I'm familiar with the Sevcom controller operation as well as the batteries.
The weaker link -today- is the motor my friend
Looking forward for the magnet-related info...
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I definitely need to learn more about magnets, no question…my level of expertise goes more in electronics/control and batteries. That being said I would appreciate you help, as it looks like you know more than me.
-How many magnets does the motor have?
- What is the type? (N30, 40, 45, etc…)
I dont believe I know more than you. Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to either of these questions. Specifics was the point I was trying to illustrate. You said "shame on the engineering dept" without considering any other logic to they're decision. I didnt think that was fair or that you had all the information. Clearly you understand the information which is good. Yes the very first model year with a brand new motor did overheat and now only three years later they have a new motor that should fix that. All in all I think it is good engineering work.
Also, if you check the link below you will notice the level of strength in the high temp magnets is very similar to the lower temp ones…(in grade 30-45, I really doubt Zero is using higher grade than that)
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp (https://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp)
Yes the strength is close, but I was only pointing out for those not informed that it is not always possible to just get higher temp mags without losing strength. Example say 75-7R motor uses 45SH (150degC). You'd have to lose significant strength to go to 180 or 200degC magnets.
Concerning the controller and battery, I would agree -conceptually- with your statement (it is obvious), but I would disagree that this is the reason as I'm familiar with the Sevcom controller operation as well as the batteries.
The weaker link -today- is the motor my friend
Looking forward for the magnet-related info...
My point is that people should keep in mind that at some point of modifying the motor with better cooling, they will reach the thermal limits of the controller/battery. I know of one example in which a oil filled motor was able to overheat the sevcon.
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One of the good thing about this forum is that you always find very knowledgeable people…in my case I do not get along very well when someone suggest I should know more about an specific subject with very little or none thought/background/data/information to back him/her up.
First you state that I should learn more about available magnets, while you actually know the same as well as I…
Second also mentioned cost, while you do not know the answer either (well, I agree with you high temp magnets are more expensive, but in the 130c-150c temp improvement window from what I have been told it is just probably $100 additional cost, or less), for me that is marginal in a $18,000 bike, when one of your main selling/advertised points is "High temp magnets for higher motor performance"
Third, you find unfair my comment about the engineering department…well, I have worked with a bunch of engineers in my life, and sometimes the engineering director's office is too far from the marketing one…and there you go...I still keep my statement, Zero should have perform more testing on the SR motors before being launched, and added the 150C magnets first place.
Last, but not least, concerning your last point, I fully agree on this one. We should keep in mind other's components thermal limits, no question, although Sevcom size 4 + current battery pack are up to the job within "non-racing" use and higher temp magnets, which is the way I ride my bike in the warm Spain...
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Hum, In my application the motor is the first to overheat, followed by the battery then the controller. I was proactive on the controller - adding a large heat sink which was inexpensive and easily installed. The motor has been on ongoing problem, first was a fan blowing on the motor , then forced air ventilation- bilge blower, both helped some but neither was enough to enable me to run without dry icing the motor between rounds. Not good for the motor and a pain in the ass. Using atf in the motor , from what every says has had only limited success, some problems-it leaks everywhere and wicks out leads, and I have not seen any detailed specs on pumps parts and coolers that are recommended. Im hoping the water cooled jackets help- Im desperate for a solution. It may be necessary to use the atf to spread the heat and the jackets to dissipate it. Why atf? There are specialty fluids designed for use where non conductive fluid are required. Since atf is a lubricant this seems to cause a problem. Has anyone looked into these other non conductive fluids. We really just need to absorb the heat spread it uniformly without causing damage or causing additional friction? Lets hope the new motor HELPS with this problem. I would be extremely surprised if it eliminated the cooling problem for any application other than moderate to heavy street use. Creating a field with 400 amps creates HEAT. The new magnets may tolerate the heat better but they dont dissipate it. Please explain where Im off the path. This doesnt seem like rocket science or is it.
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I think one of the things zero is doing is staying away from cooling of any type except for air cooling. Including cooling means you have to keep those components up and i think they are taking the zero maintinance route. One idea i have not seen is a rotor that has a pass thru in the center similar idea to a hubless wheel. This would allow for aircooling of the rotor as well as the stator. I have never seen a motor with this design, but it would be interesting from an engineering prospective.
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If the spokes were twisted like a radial fan and both end caps were vented , with filters , it would pull air in one side and out the other.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL2_NMraTEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL2_NMraTEc)
You can watch the whole video or skip ahead to the 4:00 mark. Oil sump motor casing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWqrASC7sxw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWqrASC7sxw)
To hear about their IPM motor.
He was doing all this in like 2012 so not new. Biggest thing I see is he runs 380 volts.
Safety? We don't need no stinken Safety.
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I think everyone keeps mentioning ATF because it's cheap and one or two people have tried it. There are certainly more suitable fluids out there. Good point about leakage.
I like a couple of other ideas that cropped up. After all this discussion, keeping the system dry and venting the casing has to be a top runner. A hair dryer with an air filter on one end and tubing to the motor on the other? That's off the top of my head... No intention of taking the Mickey. That in addition to cooling the casing of course.
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Exposing the motor while using filters will not block moisture and in some cases chemical mixed rain/snow/salts from getting into your motor.
After riding for one season with an exposed motor in a location which salts its roads I can tell you the motor will start to rust on the inside. I cannot tell you what effect, if any, it will have on the life or performance of the motor.
I still think fully ventilated motors are only suitable in race conditions where the exposure to the elements isn't an issue because you are not putting on 13-15k miles a year in those conditions.
Now if you were to take the inlet / outlet for the air cooled motor and move them well above the ground you still run the risk of rust due to humidity ...
Having taken apart my motor I can tell you ATF will leak from the motor if you do not reseal it properly and it will enter into the encoder area for sure.
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I would definitely be great to get someone who has actually perform the oil-cooling option...
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This is cracking me up! I thought drilling holes in the case was daft, apart from for racing. Then with filters I thought it may be worth consideration. Now that's blown out of the water thanks to Burton pointing out humidity.
Whilst searching YouTube for details on IPM motors I found a video on a Toyota Prius motor from 2001. Not new technology then. Why did Zero go down the SPM route when IPM is so obviously a better technology? Is it unkind to think that any engineer worth their salt would have gone down the IPM route from the outset? We wouldn't be wasting our combined intellect picking the bones out of workarounds that shouldn't be needed. I don't even own one and it's making me grumpy! I'm probably being unfair and overly critical here. Zero isn't Toyota. There is a lot to be said for getting it right in the first place, rather than littering the ecosystem with the casualties of poor design though. You're right to be upset Lipo and I doubt it's worth trying any of the fixes mentioned here. I would definitely write to Zero and find out what they are willing to do about it. If they don't offer you a worthwhile solution, based on your use case, then I don't know. Unless you're willing to risk serious modifications that have the likelihood of making matters worse, that is.
Forgive me, but as we reach the conclusion of two topics that have run to dozens of posts each, I see two fundamental truths here:
1. Lots of people have experienced overheating.
2. There isn't really a practical solution other than slowing down.
A third option exists but it means coughing up for the latest model and taking a massive hit on the depreciation of your existing bike. I don't see how to put a positive spin on this one.
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Yes Bonkers you stirred up a lot of posts from one little squirt bottle. It showed some interesting things and ideas and that is great good job mate. I will say this for my part I have never went into overheat mode on my 2013 DS. I don't go on the interstate as my part of Atlanta traffic is going 90mph when I'm going to work and I don't want to die. I think the FX and for sure the earlier SRs overheated if they were pushed hard for a longer time. I'm waiting on some real world reviews on the new motors to see how much better they really are. From what I see with the new bikes, now they are preforming the way they were advertised for the 2013's. Not dishonest but bugs show up in the real world and changes needed to be made and they have been. Better brakes and springs and motors and batteries and the price has stayed around what they were or better. Not too bad for a small company in a niche, but growing, market. Cheers. Oh, wait while I have a Brit here lets talk about my Jaguars' issues some time :)
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This is cracking me up! I thought drilling holes in the case was daft, apart from for racing. Then with filters I thought it may be worth consideration. Now that's blown out of the water thanks to Burton pointing out humidity.
Whilst searching YouTube for details on IPM motors I found a video on a Toyota Prius motor from 2001. Not new technology then. Why did Zero go down the SPM route when IPM is so obviously a better technology? Is it unkind to think that any engineer worth their salt would have gone down the IPM route from the outset? We wouldn't be wasting our combined intellect picking the bones out of workarounds that shouldn't be needed. I don't even own one and it's making me grumpy! I'm probably being unfair and overly critical here. Zero isn't Toyota. There is a lot to be said for getting it right in the first place, rather than littering the ecosystem with the casualties of poor design though. You're right to be upset Lipo and I doubt it's worth trying any of the fixes mentioned here. I would definitely write to Zero and find out what they are willing to do about it. If they don't offer you a worthwhile solution, based on your use case, then I don't know. Unless you're willing to risk serious modifications that have the likelihood of making matters worse, that is.
Forgive me, but as we reach the conclusion of two topics that have run to dozens of posts each, I see two fundamental truths here:
1. Lots of people have experienced overheating.
2. There isn't really a practical solution other than slowing down.
A third option exists but it means coughing up for the latest model and taking a massive hit on the depreciation of your existing bike. I don't see how to put a positive spin on this one.
I agree with 100% of your comments mate (specially with the fact that I'm piss-off)…the options are not 100% clear (maybe the oil could work/improve slightly the situation, but we would need to get a report from a non-racing user)
I'm not racing, and my times of crazy riding are over, just trying to not having to get "temp anxiety" and enjoy the bike alone or with my son…and believe me when I said that you do not need to ride very aggressively to get the temp bloody light off
It is very luckily that I will make an official complain to Zero next spring/summer as I suspect it will get much worse >:(
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Thanks New2 & Lipo. I think I may be a bit of a perfectionist and that often leads to doing nothing. At least Zero have had a go.
You'll be pleased to hear I have another topic up my sleeve... [emoji6]
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One of the reasons why our life becomes better everyday is because of perfectionism, not because of "it works, leave it like that Joe" people…
Do not be concerned for being perfectionist...there are a few like you in this forum ;)
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Haha, too true Lipo! That explains why we end up discussing topics until all avenues are explored and we've got to the bottom of things. We're just not happy until we've beaten the living daylight out of a topic and there's nothing left to discuss. This collective consciousness that we create is actually rather good I feel. Thank you. [emoji4]
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One of the reasons why our life becomes better everyday is because of perfectionism, not because of "it works, leave it like that Joe" people…
Do not be concerned for being perfectionist...there are a few like you in this forum ;)
That is nonsense, and you're just letting frustration take over. Perfectionism is the enemy of improvement. The alternative to perfectionism is not acceptance and complacency, but making reasonable compromises.
In short, perfectionists don't ship real products. Be glad you have a good product that is improving instead of nothing at all.
Offer something constructive rather than threaten an "official complaint", whatever that means. What are you going to do, report Zero to the Better Business Bureau or the Department of Transportation? Your complaints are petty, not perfectionist.
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I haven't got time to post a proper reply to your post right now Brian. I'd also like to ask Lipo to hold off replying for the time being. Please allow me some time to respond later today all being well. Thanks. [emoji4]
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One of the reasons why our life becomes better everyday is because of perfectionism, not because of "it works, leave it like that Joe" people…
Do not be concerned for being perfectionist...there are a few like you in this forum ;)
That is nonsense, and you're just letting frustration take over. Perfectionism is the enemy of improvement. The alternative to perfectionism is not acceptance and complacency, but making reasonable compromises.
In short, perfectionists don't ship real products. Be glad you have a good product that is improving instead of nothing at all.
Offer something constructive rather than threaten an "official complaint", whatever that means. What are you going to do, report Zero to the Better Business Bureau or the Department of Transportation? Your complaints are petty, not perfectionist.
Obviously we have a different concept of perfectionism (and I respect that). I do not know your experience in product & business development, I know mine…and I would agree with you, -if this is what you meant-. Anything taken to an "extreme" is not good, but thoughtful, and facts & data perfectionism will take you to the right place (in my experience). Perfectionism, as an isolated concept, is nonsense, no question.
If you pretend to justify a wrong product/marketing approach, with the "continuos improvement" words to back you up, good for you, I do not agree on that one at all.
We may also have a language issue with the meaning of "official complains" and for your information I already offered a constructive approach, I'm not that dumb, something that you are not aware of, and I do not blame you for that either.
...And, I'm not frustrated, I'm not happy or piss off whatever suits you better in English ;)
I apologize MostlyBonkers, I just realized your post, sorry about that :-[
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No worries Lipo, I was worried it would flare up a bit and I've been busy. Nicely put.
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Thanks MostlyBonkers, no problem
Opinions are like bottoms…everyone has one ;D
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For sure Lipo. [emoji4]
I'm of the opinion that people often rush to get results at the cost of the quality of the end product. It might feel like saving time in the short term, but in the long run it is inefficient at best. I find that more time spent at the thinking stage pays dividends further down the line. I like Apple's approach. They may not be the first to market but they do a good job when they enter it. Even they make mistakes, but it's usually when they're rushing.
People get upset when they're sold something that doesn't live up to expectations. If a bike has a top speed of over 100 miles an hour, I'd expect it to easily manage 95 or so and sustain that speed until it ran out of fuel, or drained the battery. Especially on a bike that is marketed as being fun and costs a lot of money. If I owned an SR I would certainly expect it to manage my commute and keep up with all the traffic on the motorway. It simply isn't capable of doing that as I discovered during testing. It remains to be seen if the 2016 SR is capable. It does sound hopeful.
Even with the IPM motor, the heat will still build up in the stator and the rotor will gradually heat up too. A new liquid cooled IPM motor is likely to be what we'll see in a few years time. Just like with combustion engines, liquid cooling will give better control over temperature. Electric motors work better at low temperatures so it makes sense to extract as much heat as possible from the system.
I know that in the real world battery capacity is likely to dictate sustained speed more than heat for many people. Yet again it makes me think of my commute though. I wouldn't be worried about range as long as I knew I could do up to 40 miles at high speeds and another 20 at low speeds. I wouldn't need to limit my speed to extend the range because I'd be plugging in again when I got home.
If I manage to buy a Zero soon (Justin's 2013 S or a 2014 DS), then I'll change my route back to the one I was using for three years before I bought my NC750. Much less motorway. I prefer my old route in some ways, but the motorway feels like less effort on a daily basis.
No easy solutions for anyone here I fear! That's useful to know by itself at least.
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If the new motor can transplanted in earlier bike, there will be a market for the old motors. Let me know if anyone wants to sell there old ones.
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I'm not sure I follow Dean. If anything, this thread has proved that the IPM motor is the only real solution to the overheating issues, but at a cost. Are you hoping that bike owners will upgrade their motors? I don't think they will, due to cost and effort. It's more likely that the very few that it bothers will buy a new bike. I can't imagine Zero going to the effort of replacing motors in existing bikes.
Everything is relative and in a couple of years time when the whole range come with IPM motors, Zero may well be offering another trade-in deal to get folks to buy a new model with an IPM motor. I still think the SPM motors will stay in the bikes and become second hand runabouts. If Zero have spare stock of SPM motors that they don't need for warranty replacements, then you may be able to get a few cheaply.
I respect what you've done so far. Is it worth the bother to continue on that track though? An IPM motor with a cooling jacket or forced air cooling to keep the stator cool should nail it. No ATF or other fluids leaking onto rear tyres or leaching into the electrics.
Maybe I just don't get it and I hope I haven't caused offence.
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I hope the new IPM motors solve everyone's overheating problems, I however am not as optimistic as some. The engineers at zero are mainly concerned about overheating under normal street use, I wish,but doubt the new motor will be able stay cool under race conditions. I was thinking that some current owners may want to replace their motors with the new IPM, if it is a direct replacement. The new motors hopefully wont be too much more than the current ones, appox $1800, With new bikes costing $18,000, repowering MAY be an acceptable option especially if you can sell the old motor for $500 to $700. Its just a thought.
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The new high temp magnets will just "alleviate" the problem (which for a lot of users -like me- should be enough), but I would not expect a miracle. After all you just increase the operating temp, but not resolve the issue, which is a conceptual one.
If by any chance they would offer the upgrade, I would go for it…but not at full cost…as this is something Zero made wrong (specially as repeated several times on the SR models), they should carry a lot of the weight, not the users that bought a kind of "sports" bike, which turned out not to be even close to that...
And, I would sell my old motor…not sure if at $500-700 ;)
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So I figure that you like the idea of getting your hands on a few cheap motors so you can build more karts Dean? Or experiment with different cooling methods and have a spare or two.
Have you been in touch with Lightning? Their oil cooled motor that won Pikes Peak would be perfect for your application. They might even be interested in a partner relationship as you would be showcasing their technology. That chap who runs the company seems like a decent sort. He might give you an old test unit they have lying around. Put lots of Lightning stickers on your kart and you're away! 200 horsepower would be awesome! I'm not sure how you'd cope with all that torque. But then surely a kart has more grip than a motorcycle? Sounds like it could be a lot of fun to me.
If I were you Lipo, I'd write a letter to Zero now so it gets to them in time for Christmas. You might be the only one out there that's really bothered about overheating and they might just make an exception. It would make you happy and they wouldn't have an army of other SR owners expecting the same.
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I already did…wrote an email a couple of weeks ago to their Southern European Sales manager asking to be quoted/to know if the motor can be replaced for the new 2016 model.
No reply yet >:(
I will probably write to the HQ in a few days, and see if there is any reaction...
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Now that I've got a Zero, I thought I'd use an opportunity to do a little testing this morning.
I'm afraid the audio is terrible in the video as I was in a layby on a busy road. You should be able pick out some of what I said and get the gist of it. I hope it holds some interest and that you see a lighter side to it as well.
https://youtu.be/bgmL1rip8bs
When I posted originally, I assumed the casing would get a lot hotter than it does. I think it's worth reiterating that heat generated in the permanent magnets attached to the rotor is the real problem. The temperature sensor is in the stator which is attached to the casing. The rotor can only really radiate its heat to the stator as there is an air gap between the two.
Going full throttle into a headwind got the motor temperature above 100C very quickly regardless of whether I'd sprayed water onto the cooling fins or not. The motor temperature drops very quickly when not under load too.
With the long discussion that this topic generated, I actually think Terry hit on the best solution to this problem: Aerodynamics. He wrote a really good post in the topic on the Diginow fast charger.
I don't want to take anything away from the new IPM motor, it's just that it doesn't do anything for range at high speed.
You'll see from the video that I used lots of juice overheating the motor. Unless you plan lots of very short trips riding like a hooligan, overheating is unlikely to bother you. These bikes aren't built for motorways, or racing (without modification) for that matter.
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Statoraid.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/statorade.html (http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/statorade.html)
Fill the air gap. Change the heat emission to include thermal conduction. Cooling is increased dramatically.
Question is, does it work on a inrunner?
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Wow! That's interesting!
But i don't see myself injecting something like that into my motor anytime soon...
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Wow! That's interesting!
But i don't see myself injecting something like that into my motor anytime soon...
By itself it won't do anything. But if you want to cool the motor faster with scoops, mist, a water jacket, ect... it will let the rotor heat transfer out
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People get upset when they're sold something that doesn't live up to expectations. If a bike has a top speed of over 100 miles an hour, I'd expect it to easily manage 95 or so and sustain that speed until it ran out of fuel, or drained the battery. Especially on a bike that is marketed as being fun and costs a lot of money. If I owned an SR I would certainly expect it to manage my commute and keep up with all the traffic on the motorway. It simply isn't capable of doing that as I discovered during testing. It remains to be seen if the 2016 SR is capable. It does sound hopeful.
Even with the IPM motor, the heat will still build up in the stator and the rotor will gradually heat up too. A new liquid cooled IPM motor is likely to be what we'll see in a few years time.
My 2015 SR keeps up with traffic on the freeway no problem! Here in Australia the top speed is either 100 km/h or 110 km/h and at those speed (even on a 40 degree C day) I have had no overheating problems. If you are in stop/go traffic and pin it on every green light, then it will over heat.
Zero says the new IPM motors dump heat much quicker so if you back off for a few seconds its back to full power.
I don't think Zero will introduce water cooling in the foreseeable future as it goes against the company moto "sophisticated simplicity".
Air cooled motor and controller and no cooling in the batter is simple. Once you water cool the motor you will need to water cool the controller and the batteries.
The test results from the IPM motor in racing conditions showed that it took 5 laps (of a certain track) to over heat the motor, too laps more to over heat the controller, and another 2 laps to over heat the battery.
With the IPM motor the whole system is well balanced. It is unlikely you can ride as hard on the road as you can on a track.
When batteries drop in price and size and increase in energy density and sales drastically increase we may see a new sports model from Zero then, but why change the S and SR, they are just fine for what they do now.
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Nice video Bonkers!! :) I couldn't really hear you too well, but it was fun to watch the motor temp drop. It goes down really fast when you pour water on it. I've never really done a test like that with a camera. Although it seemed to drop quite quick anyway even before the water. Very interesting to see, thank you Bonkers!
But yes, since 2013 the bikes are good for almost everyones commuting needs. And for those who need to go just a little faster for a sustained period, they can upgrade to a 2016 with the IPM and it's even better. A full 16 kilometers per hour faster sustained speed. This is pretty huge! 95 mph sustained now for the SR vs 85 mph for 2015 SR and 80 mph for the standard 2015 S. Notice the 2016 S with the small battery is also 80 mph sustained. Not that there's anything wrong with 80 mph mind you, that's 10 mph faster than any legal speed limit in California and most of the country and world, it's just interesting to note, that it's now battery limited vs motor. The system is very balanced it seems.
But yes if aerodynamics were to ever improve, all these issues of sustained highway speed heating would go away, as well as increased range (everyone likes that right?) and longer lasting rear tires (something most people don't consider) I had one last about 25,000 miles and I was carrying the weight of a small cow on the custom made FOX rear suspension during that period. (It was just by chance, but one of the head guys at FOX Racing Shox who could call the shots on making a one off custom spring for my bike shared beers with me at the same place in Scotts Valley most Friday afternoons. I was very lucky to have him as a big fan of what I was doing and willing to go out of his way for me.)
Anyway, all in all, everyone who has a 2013 and up Zero pretty much is being able to be a part of the future in the making now that it works well. The 2010-2012 bikes were good, but the 2013 and up are are better. And the 2015 and up are amazing. And the 2016 IPM motor? It just keeps getting more and more refined at this point. It's truly an incredible time in history to be able to own and ride one of these amazing machines each day. I've got almost 100,000 miles of electric motorcycle riding under my belt, and I still get a huge grin under my helmet each time I twist the throttle.
After riding gas motorcycles many 1000cc superbikes every day for almost 20 years, I've never once desired to ride another after riding a Zero. Perhaps not everybody, but I must know over 100 Zero owners now who are multiple Zero owners, meaning I'm definitely not alone in knowing electric is just a more pure riding experience. Haven't had a single girl burn her leg getting off the bike yet. Zero is fixing its motor heat issue much faster than gas bikes are fixing their hot exhaust issue that's for sure.
Bottom line is if motor heat is an issue for you, try to get a good trade in deal on a 2016 model. Otherwise, enjoy the ride for now. If not in 2017, I'm sure by 2018 or at least 2019 something even better will come out we can only hope. Changes seem to be less drastic and more about refinement now. So if you're waiting to upgrade till the next big thing, well you are probably the type that still has a perfectly good working Palm Pilot and flip phone. Why upgrade them, they work fine, right? Don't worry, your time will come one of these days, just keep being patient! ;)
As many of you know I wake up an hour before the sun rises and I entertain myself here before getting out of bed, turning on the lights and making any noise to wake up the neighbors (and by that I mean my little husky puppy Charger howling with excitement wanting to ride the Zero once I start moving around, so please pardon my attempt at a little early morning humor.
Actually she's not so little anymore. I post a pic in a post below. Riding an electric motorcycle is literally her favorite thing to do in the world. No noise to hurt her hears, no hot pipes or engine radiating heat to burn her. I can affix a permanent carpet to the gas tank area, because, well I never have to add gas. Thousands of reasons to own an electric motorcycle. This is just one of lifes little bonuses as far as I see it.
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if you have facebook follow her here:
https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/ (https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/)
As you can see, she's quite popular with the ladies ;)
oops, sorry for the thread highjack. Back on topic.
Get a 2016 IPM motor bike and be done with motor overheating issues for anything reasonable.
There, time to get up now and let the husky pup out to go pee.
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Thanks Terry. You know, with comments like that, you'll only encourage me! [emoji6]
Nice post, by the way. I hope all readers are encouraged by it. Overheating isn't an issue for me and my commute and I don't think it's an issue for the vast majority of owners either.
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One thing I appreciate about electric motorcycles are their uniform and accurate throttle control. Most fuel injected IC motorcycles that I have ridden have a "snatchy" on/off throttle and also a lean-surge when the throttle is opened on acceleration. You don't get that with an electric motor. :)