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[MostlyBonkers]

For sure Lipo. [emoji4]

I'm of the opinion that people often rush to get results at the cost of the quality of the end product. It might feel like saving time in the short term, but in the long run it is inefficient at best.  I find that more time spent at the thinking stage pays dividends further down the line. I like Apple's approach. They may not be the first to market but they do a good job when they enter it. Even they make mistakes, but it's usually when they're rushing.

People get upset when they're sold something that doesn't live up to expectations. If a bike has a top speed of over 100 miles an hour, I'd expect it to easily manage 95 or so and sustain that speed until it ran out of fuel, or drained the battery. Especially on a bike that is marketed as being fun and costs a lot of money. If I owned an SR I would certainly expect it to manage my commute and keep up with all the traffic on the motorway. It simply isn't capable of doing that as I discovered during testing. It remains to be seen if the 2016 SR is capable. It does sound hopeful.

Even with the IPM motor, the heat will still build up in the stator and the rotor will gradually heat up too. A new liquid cooled IPM motor is likely to be what we'll see in a few years time. Just like with combustion engines, liquid cooling will give better control over temperature.  Electric motors work better at low temperatures so it makes sense to extract as much heat as possible from the system.

I know that in the real world battery capacity is likely to dictate sustained speed more than heat for many people. Yet again it makes me think of my commute though. I wouldn't be worried about range as long as I knew I could do up to 40 miles at high speeds and another 20 at low speeds.  I wouldn't need to limit my speed to extend the range because I'd be plugging in again when I got home.

If I manage to buy a Zero soon (Justin's 2013 S or a 2014 DS), then I'll change my route back to the one I was using for three years before I bought my NC750. Much less motorway. I prefer my old route in some ways, but the motorway feels like less effort on a daily basis.

No easy solutions for anyone here I fear! That's useful to know by itself at least.

[dean mcneil]

If the new motor can transplanted in earlier bike, there will be a market for the old motors. Let me know if anyone wants to sell there old ones.

[MostlyBonkers]

I'm not sure I follow Dean. If anything, this thread has proved that the IPM motor is the only real solution to the overheating issues, but at a cost. Are you hoping that bike owners will upgrade their motors? I don't think they will, due to cost and effort. It's more likely that the very few that it bothers will buy a new bike. I can't imagine Zero going to the effort of replacing motors in existing bikes.

Everything is relative and in a couple of years time when the whole range come with IPM motors, Zero may well be offering another trade-in deal to get folks to buy a new model with an IPM motor. I still think the SPM motors will stay in the bikes and become second hand runabouts. If Zero have spare stock of SPM motors that they don't need for warranty replacements, then you may be able to get a few cheaply.

I respect what you've done so far. Is it worth the bother to continue on that track though? An IPM motor with a cooling jacket or forced air cooling to keep the stator cool should nail it. No ATF or other fluids leaking onto rear tyres or leaching into the electrics.

Maybe I just don't get it and I hope I haven't caused offence.

[dean mcneil]

I hope the new IPM motors solve everyone's overheating problems, I however am not as optimistic as some. The engineers at zero are mainly concerned about  overheating under normal street use, I wish,but doubt the new motor will be able stay cool under race conditions.  I was thinking that some current owners may want to replace their motors with the new IPM, if it is a direct replacement. The new motors  hopefully wont be too much more than the current ones, appox $1800,  With new bikes costing $18,000, repowering MAY be an acceptable option especially if you can sell the old motor for $500 to $700. Its just a thought.

[Lipo423]

The new high temp magnets will just "alleviate" the problem (which for a lot of users -like me- should be enough), but I would not expect a miracle. After all you just increase the operating temp, but not resolve the issue, which is a conceptual one.

If by any chance they would offer the upgrade, I would go for it…but not at full cost…as this is something Zero made wrong (specially as repeated several times on the SR models), they should carry a lot of the weight, not the users that bought a kind of "sports" bike, which turned out not to be even close to that...
And, I would sell my old motor…not sure if at $500-700   

[MostlyBonkers]

So I figure that you like the idea of getting your hands on a few cheap motors so you can build more karts Dean? Or experiment with different cooling methods and have a spare or two.

Have you been in touch with Lightning? Their oil cooled motor that won Pikes Peak would be perfect for your application. They might even be interested in a partner relationship as you would be showcasing their technology. That chap who runs the company seems like a decent sort. He might give you an old test unit they have lying around. Put lots of Lightning stickers on your kart and you're away! 200 horsepower would be awesome! I'm not sure how you'd cope with all that torque. But then surely a kart has more grip than a motorcycle? Sounds like it could be a lot of fun to me.

If I were you Lipo, I'd write a letter to Zero now so it gets to them in time for Christmas. You might be the only one out there that's really bothered about overheating and they might just make an exception. It would make you happy and they wouldn't have an army of other SR owners expecting the same.

[Lipo423]

I already did…wrote an email a couple of weeks ago to their Southern European Sales manager asking to be quoted/to know if the motor can be replaced for the new 2016 model.

No reply yet 

I will probably write to the HQ in a few days, and see if there is any reaction...

[MostlyBonkers]

Now that I've got a Zero, I thought I'd use an opportunity to do a little testing this morning.

I'm afraid the audio is terrible in the video as I was in a layby on a busy road. You should be able pick out some of what I said and get the gist of it. I hope it holds some interest and that you see a lighter side to it as well.



When I posted originally, I assumed the casing would get a lot hotter than it does.  I think it's worth reiterating that heat generated in the permanent magnets attached to the rotor is the real problem.  The temperature sensor is in the stator which is attached to the casing. The rotor can only really radiate its heat to the stator as there is an air gap between the two.

Going full throttle into a headwind got the motor temperature above 100C very quickly regardless of whether I'd sprayed water onto the cooling fins or not. The motor temperature drops very quickly when not under load too.

With the long discussion that this topic generated, I actually think Terry hit on the best solution to this problem: Aerodynamics. He wrote a really good post in the topic on the Diginow fast charger.

I don't want to take anything away from the new IPM motor, it's just that it doesn't do anything for range at high speed.

You'll see from the video that I used lots of juice overheating the motor. Unless you plan lots of very short trips riding like a hooligan, overheating is unlikely to bother you. These bikes aren't built for motorways, or racing (without modification) for that matter.

[MrDude_1]

Statoraid.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/statorade.html

Fill the air gap. Change the heat emission to include thermal conduction. Cooling is increased dramatically.


Question is, does it work on a inrunner?

[buutvrij for life]

Wow! That's interesting!

But i don't see myself injecting something like that into my motor anytime soon...

[MrDude_1]

Wow! That's interesting!

But i don't see myself injecting something like that into my motor anytime soon...

By itself it won't do anything.  But if you want to cool the motor faster with scoops, mist, a water jacket, ect... it will let the rotor heat transfer out

[grmarks]

People get upset when they're sold something that doesn't live up to expectations. If a bike has a top speed of over 100 miles an hour, I'd expect it to easily manage 95 or so and sustain that speed until it ran out of fuel, or drained the battery. Especially on a bike that is marketed as being fun and costs a lot of money. If I owned an SR I would certainly expect it to manage my commute and keep up with all the traffic on the motorway. It simply isn't capable of doing that as I discovered during testing. It remains to be seen if the 2016 SR is capable. It does sound hopeful.

Even with the IPM motor, the heat will still build up in the stator and the rotor will gradually heat up too. A new liquid cooled IPM motor is likely to be what we'll see in a few years time.

My 2015 SR keeps up with traffic on the freeway no problem! Here in Australia the top speed is either 100 km/h or 110 km/h and at those speed (even on a 40 degree C day) I have had no overheating problems. If you are in stop/go traffic and pin it on every green light, then it will over heat.
Zero says the new IPM motors dump heat much quicker so if you back off for a few seconds its back to full power.

I don't think Zero will introduce water cooling in the foreseeable future as it goes against the company moto "sophisticated simplicity".
Air cooled motor and controller and no cooling in the batter is simple. Once you water cool the motor you will need to water cool the controller and the batteries.
The test results from the IPM motor in racing conditions showed that it took 5 laps (of a certain track) to over heat the motor, too laps more to over heat the controller, and another 2 laps to over heat the battery.
With the IPM motor the whole system is well balanced. It is unlikely you can ride as hard on the road as you can on a track.
When batteries drop in price and size and increase in energy density and sales drastically increase we may see a new sports model from Zero then, but why change the S and SR, they are just fine for what they do now.     

[Electric Terry]

Nice video Bonkers!!   I couldn't really hear you too well, but it was fun to watch the motor temp drop.  It goes down really fast when you pour water on it.  I've never really done a test like that with a camera.  Although it seemed to drop quite quick anyway even before the water.  Very interesting to see, thank you Bonkers!

But yes, since 2013 the bikes are good for almost everyones commuting needs.   And for those who need to go just a little faster for a sustained period, they can upgrade to a 2016 with the IPM and it's even better.  A full 16 kilometers per hour faster sustained speed.  This is pretty huge!  95 mph sustained now for the SR vs 85 mph for 2015 SR and 80 mph for the standard 2015 S.  Notice the 2016 S with the small battery is also 80 mph sustained.  Not that there's anything wrong with 80 mph mind you, that's 10 mph faster than any legal speed limit in California and most of the country and world, it's just interesting to note, that it's now battery limited vs motor.  The system is very balanced it seems.

But yes if aerodynamics were to ever improve, all these issues of sustained highway speed heating would go away, as well as increased range (everyone likes that right?) and longer lasting rear tires (something most people don't consider)  I had one last about 25,000 miles and I was carrying the weight of a small cow on the custom made FOX rear suspension during that period.  (It was just by chance, but one of the head guys at FOX Racing Shox who could call the shots on making a one off custom spring for my bike shared beers with me at the same place in Scotts Valley most Friday afternoons.  I was very lucky to have him as a big fan of what I was doing and willing to go out of his way for me.)

Anyway, all in all, everyone who has a 2013 and up Zero pretty much is being able to be a part of the future in the making now that it works well.  The 2010-2012 bikes were good, but the 2013 and up are are better.  And the 2015 and up are amazing.  And the 2016 IPM motor?  It just keeps getting more and more refined at this point.  It's truly an incredible time in history to be able to own and ride one of these amazing machines each day.  I've got almost 100,000 miles of electric motorcycle riding under my belt, and I still get a huge grin under my helmet each time I twist the throttle.

After riding gas motorcycles many 1000cc superbikes every day for almost 20 years, I've never once desired to ride another after riding a Zero.   Perhaps not everybody, but I must know over 100 Zero owners now who are multiple Zero owners, meaning I'm definitely not alone in knowing electric is just a more pure riding experience.  Haven't had a single girl burn her leg getting off the bike yet.  Zero is fixing its motor heat issue much faster than gas bikes are fixing their hot exhaust issue that's for sure.

Bottom line is if motor heat is an issue for you, try to get a good trade in deal on a 2016 model.  Otherwise, enjoy the ride for now.  If not in 2017, I'm sure by 2018 or at least 2019 something even better will come out we can only hope.  Changes seem to be less drastic and more about refinement now.  So if you're waiting to upgrade till the next big thing, well you are probably the type that still has a perfectly good working Palm Pilot and flip phone.  Why upgrade them, they work fine, right?  Don't worry, your time will come one of these days, just keep being patient! 

As many of you know I wake up an hour before the sun rises and I entertain myself here before getting out of bed, turning on the lights and making any noise to wake up the neighbors (and by that I mean my little husky puppy Charger howling with excitement wanting to ride the Zero once I start moving around, so please pardon my attempt at a little early morning humor.

Actually she's not so little anymore.  I post a pic in a post below.  Riding an electric motorcycle is literally her favorite thing to do in the world.  No noise to hurt her hears, no hot pipes or engine radiating heat to burn her.  I can affix a permanent carpet to the gas tank area, because, well I never have to add gas.  Thousands of reasons to own an electric motorcycle.  This is just one of lifes little bonuses as far as I see it.

[Electric Terry]

if you have facebook follow her here:

https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/

As you can see, she's quite popular with the ladies

oops, sorry for the thread highjack.  Back on topic.

Get a 2016 IPM motor bike and be done with motor overheating issues for anything reasonable.

There, time to get up now and let the husky pup out to go pee.

[MostlyBonkers]

Thanks Terry. You know, with comments like that, you'll only encourage me! [emoji6]

Nice post, by the way. I hope all readers are encouraged by it. Overheating isn't an issue for me and my commute and I don't think it's an issue for the vast majority of owners either.