ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: ultrarnr on March 06, 2019, 05:42:38 AM
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Has anyone ever seen or heard of L2 chargers that can charge at 12kW? Are they in development? What about Europe? Just curious about what drove Zero to develop this option. Thanks.
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In Europe (and everywhere there are type 2 mennekes plug chargers) it is 3 phase with either 16, 32 or 63 Amps per phase. So 11 kW, 22kW or even 43kW total
In the Netherlands :
lots and lots of 11kW stations (typically at least 10 within a 10 km radius)
lots of 22 kW stations
fast chargers with 43kW AC are less common but still you will find at least 3 within a 50 km radius (at least here in the Netherlands)
So the 12kW charger by Zero can charge at 75-80% of its full capacity on a 11kW station if I judge the wiring correctly (2x 3kW charger on 2 of the 3 phases and 1x 6kW charger on the third phase). So at 11kW charging station "only" 9 kW (3x3kW) or maybe 9.8 (3+3+3.7) and at 22kW or 43kW stations the full 12kW can be used
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Thank you for starting this thread. I am very interested to see what experiences people have both with higher power home EVSE and how many support higher power in the wild today. It's my understanding that 90% of the charging infrastructure in the US is Level 2, but I can't quantify how many offer higher power. I do know that many of the EVSE in Europe along freeways offer higher power. But real experiences from people in the world would be very helpful.
Here are a few links of interest:
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80 (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80)
https://emotorwerks.com/store/residential/juicebox-pro-75-smart-75-amp-evse-with-24-foot-cable (https://emotorwerks.com/store/residential/juicebox-pro-75-smart-75-amp-evse-with-24-foot-cable)
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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I have alerted Terry to this thread. Prepare to harvest data.
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I've used about 5000 J1772's (3300 alone according to ChargePoint, stat pic below) in the last 8 years (sometimes 4 at a time) and I've seen just 1 J1772 station that can do 12 kW located in Tucson, AZ (pic attached, and FB link below) but it is no longer on the map. About 1 in 100 will do 8 kW, but 99% are 7 kW or less, and almost all Blink stations are about 5.5 kW or less.
But I've seen quite a few Tesla stations do over 16 kW.
And the easiest way to get 12 kW or more, (I have many times pulled 24 kW or higher), is using multiple J1772's at the same time. I've used thousands of locations with 2 J plugs or more, many have 4 or more.
https://www.facebook.com/ElectricTerry/photos/a.487822534646889/510584192370723/?type=3&theater
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYwYhYrg4XP/
When viewing the pic attachments, slide the viewer all the way to the right to see the whole pic
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Terry you really need to check out those EVGo stations I told you about. They advertise 7.4 but here's one putting out 10.6.
(https://i.imgur.com/0TXdaQQ.jpg?1)
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46 Amps lol!! (and it says 30 amps (rated max) below that hahahaha) I will check them out!
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This thread has made me curious as well..
How is Zero solving this?
In .no the only option when using type1 (or J1772) connector is 1-phase 230V up to 32 A, which equates to 7 kW.
All public charging stations are however equipped with Mennekes Type 2 connnectors, of which if possible, some support 3 phase 400V 32A outputting 22 kW.
So.. if J1772 connector is the only possible connector setup for Zero bikes, it severely limits their potential for all of .no (and other scandinavian countries)
..Not to mention people having to have a Mennekes to J1772 cable with them wherever they go in addition to the Schuko to J1772 setup..
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The new SR/F offers a Mennekes Type 2 inlet for the EU version of the bike. The J1772 is generally for North America.
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It is pretty annoying. Just as the J1772 seems to be coming into widespread availability, it's almost too underpowered and obsolete to be of any use.
I remember vividly waiting for CA 85 to open up when I was living in San Jose. It passed literally a block from my home and where I worked, so it was just perfect for me. Everybody thought it was going to really help relieve congestion all around. The day it opened, I eagerly jumped on it...and sat in a virtual parking lot all the way to work.
A day late and a dollar short.
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I guess you have to hit the road the the chargers you have not the chargers you want.
The j1772 is only a stop gap for now and they work fine for home use but not for long trips in there intended form use.
The troubling aspect of DC charging as one EVA owner pointed out was that for now it was more costly than gas for the mileage traveled with a pay station.
Maybe I missed it but where did Zero say the 12kw option would for sure only have one inlet? The current charge tank has a j1772 inlet on the top so why can't the one for the SRF?
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…….The j1772 is only a stop gap for now and they work fine for home use but not for long trips in there intended form use.
The troubling aspect of DC charging as one EVA owner pointed out was that for now it was more costly than gas for the mileage traveled with a pay station.
…..
"for now" Now there is no road tax on recharging is there? In this state I believe there is a percent tax at the wholesale level for liquid fuels and then the per gallon both state and federal.
But from what I read on here if you have to pay to recharge the cost benefits in the advertising are quite questionable. Then at least with gas or diesel you can pay in cash and say no I do not participate in your bonus plan to save a few cents a gallon and keep track of what one does.
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Doug S, You are spot on. I have had dual Elcon chargers for my Zero SR for several years and thought they were awesome. They finally allowed you to go on extended road trip on the SR. Sure charge times were as long as two hours but despite that I made several trips out to western NC and had a great time. But then last spring I bought an Energica Eva and got to experience CCS charging with 20-30 minute charge times. I made a trip out to western NC in July in which most (but not all) of my charging was CCS. Needless to say I have no desire to do another road trip with the SR again. Faster charging is like a very addictive drug, the more of it you get the more you want and you never want to stop getting more.
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This is what we try to explain to our customers, yet many of them insist on the 6.6kW unit instead of the 9.9.
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The new SR/F offers a Mennekes Type 2 inlet for the EU version of the bike. The J1772 is generally for North America.
Are you certain of this? I cannot find any information supporting it..
I tried looking at this picture to get details, but it's too grainy..
(https://electricmotorcycles.news/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/merchandising.jpg)
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check out this big one from clippercreek
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80/cs-100-70-amp-80-amp-ev-charging-station
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check out this big one from clippercreek
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80/cs-100-70-amp-80-amp-ev-charging-station
I think those are the ones suncountryhighway runs on their high-amp J1772 stations. I've got some of them marked in the appropriate layer of the e-moto touring meta-map in google mymaps https://www.google.com/maps/d/embed?mid=1XlgoFYOj6345oZotVQ7KOuC_dBM&ll=38%2C-113&z=6
(BTW I could use help populating this map in other areas. If Zero really does offer a configuration of 12kw with a single j-plug, these stations will be in high demand.)
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Are you certain of this? I cannot find any information supporting it..
I tried looking at this picture to get details, but it's too grainy..
Yes, they've shown pictures of it and it's been discussed by Zero employees multiple times.
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*snip*
Yes, they've shown pictures of it and it's been discussed by Zero employees multiple times.
Great! Thank you! :)
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The new SR/F offers a Mennekes Type 2 inlet for the EU version of the bike. The J1772 is generally for North America.
Are you certain of this? I cannot find any information supporting it..
I tried looking at this picture to get details, but it's too grainy..
Here You go, a picture of the mennekes type 2 inlet on the SR/F
https://blogautomobile.fr/zero-sr-f-quand-lelectrique-passe-la-seconde-326754#jp-carousel-326764
interestingly all 3 phases have a pin connected to it which give 2 possibilities :
* it's either a 3 kW or 6kW version on 1 or 2 phases and the other pins are just unconnected OR
* they are 3 phase chargers !
(https://blogautomobile.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Zero-SR-F-Prise-charge-2000x1335.jpg)
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Nice!
Thank you! :)
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Off topic but when I look at the charge port I see a bowl full of water in the rain when charging, maybe I'm missing a drain hole
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There have been multiple reports of a drain hole, so not to worry.
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Off topic but when I look at the charge port I see a bowl full of water in the rain when charging, maybe I'm missing a drain hole
I do as well, but onsite reports have mentioned drainage.
A drain hole can still get clogged with debris though.
I’ll just mention some hazards I’ve encountered and had to clean off my plastics while my bike is parked: leaves, bark bits, tree sap, and bird waste.
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interestingly all 3 phases have a pin connected to it which give 2 possibilities :
* it's either a 3 kW or 6kW version on 1 or 2 phases and the other pins are just unconnected OR
* they are 3 phase chargers !
(https://blogautomobile.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Zero-SR-F-Prise-charge-2000x1335.jpg)
Since the spanish video
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8792.0
shows a standard 3kw version with only L1 + N pins (+ safety ground and control pins), this indicates that each charger is connected to a new phase. As long as each charger can provide the required voltage (which is the only sensible way to do it when designing from scratch), I think we can safely assume that each charger is connected to a separate phase. Thus the premium version will likely use two phases on a mennekes plug, for a maximum of 16A per phase, and 12 kw version will draw 32A on L3-N and 16A on L2-N and L1-N. :)
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This is what we try to explain to our customers, yet many of them insist on the 6.6kW unit instead of the 9.9.
I think I'd opt for the 10kw option, although I probably would not use peak power that much (to take it easy on the battery, although Zero finds 12kw / 0.8C acceptable judging by the SRF). It's just handy to have 10kw when it's necessary and you're in a hurry. The step from 1.2 to 3.3 or 6.6kw charging is really enormous, but from 6.6 to 10 is not that much of a difference. For a 80% charge you go from 8h (standard) to 2h12m (3.3kw) to 1h6m (6.6kw) to 44m at 10kw. Those last 20 minutes cost 800-ish euro while the use cases where those 20m really count are quite narrow.
Law of diminishing returns I guess.
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Price is no object to a junkie
And yes I mean that as a joke. Mostly. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go figure out where I want to put a 4th charger on my SR.
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interestingly all 3 phases have a pin connected to it which give 2 possibilities :
* it's either a 3 kW or 6kW version on 1 or 2 phases and the other pins are just unconnected OR
* they are 3 phase chargers !
Since the spanish video
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8792.0
shows a standard 3kw version with only L1 + N pins (+ safety ground and control pins), this indicates that each charger is connected to a new phase. As long as each charger can provide the required voltage (which is the only sensible way to do it when designing from scratch), I think we can safely assume that each charger is connected to a separate phase. Thus the premium version will likely use two phases on a mennekes plug, for a maximum of 16A per phase, and 12 kw version will draw 32A on L3-N and 16A on L2-N and L1-N. :)
made a screenshot of it. It appears indeed that each 3kW charger is connected to a single phase (which makes sense)
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I personally know of 2 j1772 plugs that can do over 12kw.
The Delware House Travel Plaza on I-95 has 2 18kw j plugs and my sisters house in Florida where she recently installed a 40amp charger.
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Uh, what voltage is her 40 amp charger running at? Because it would have to be... 450 volts to make 18kW
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> The Delware House Travel Plaza on I-95 has 2 18kw j plugs.
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/53286
Yup, claims there are two.
> and my sisters house in Florida where she recently installed a 40amp charger
Um, 40 amp circuits are normally used to drive 32A 6.6kw evse. You need 100A circuit to for a 80A evse to get 18kw.
I sure hope someone doesn't make a your sister joke.
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Yeah, was a little off there. The 40 amp is really only 9.6kw.
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> The Delware House Travel Plaza on I-95 has 2 18kw j plugs.
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/53286
Yup, claims there are two.
Can confirm, there's several 18kW J plugs up 95, at visitor centers that end in "House". Maryland House, Chesapeake House, etc. Pretty much the only plug over 7-10kW that I've even seen. Have to park surrounded by semis, but at least there's food and bathroom at each stop.
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> > The Delware House Travel Plaza on I-95 has 2 18kw j plugs.
> > http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/53286
> Can confirm, there's several 18kW J plugs up 95, at visitor centers that end in "House". Maryland House, Chesapeake House, etc. Pretty much the only plug over 7-10kW that I've even seen. Have to park surrounded by semis, but at least there's food and bathroom at each stop.
Awesome. These? https://mdta.maryland.gov/md_i-95_travel_plazas/home.html
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Yeah, was a little off there. The 40 amp is really only 9.6kw.
And electricians generally don't wire up more than 80% of a circuit's rating for continuous loads.
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In the Reno-Tahoe area there's an older Eaton made station which claims 16.8kW and might be worth trying:
IVGID
DIAMOND PEAK
1210 Ski Way
Incline Village, NV
Note I've seen this station up close, it's real, though I was not able to put much of a load on it to test what it would allow.
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I've used about 5000 J1772's (3300 alone according to ChargePoint, stat pic below) in the last 8 years (sometimes 4 at a time) and I've seen just 1 J1772 station that can do 12 kW located in Tucson, AZ (pic attached, and FB link below) but it is no longer on the map. About 1 in 100 will do 8 kW, but 99% are 7 kW or less, and almost all Blink stations are about 5.5 kW or less.
But I've seen quite a few Tesla stations do over 16 kW.
And the easiest way to get 12 kW or more, (I have many times pulled 24 kW or higher), is using multiple J1772's at the same time. I've used thousands of locations with 2 J plugs or more, many have 4 or more.
Thanks, Terry. Unf I find this really discouraging for EV owners -- both moto and car -- in the US. For my Zero, which has far less battery than a car -- I have to use two plugs to charge in a resonable amount of time? I think the biggest factor holding adoption of EVs is charging infrastructure. We are nowhere near where we need to be.
Now I'm wondering about history. How did it come to be that the most prevalent stations (J1772 level 2) only supply 6.something?
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Manufacturers skimped on parts.
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Thank you for starting this thread. I am very interested to see what experiences people have both with higher power home EVSE and how many support higher power in the wild today. It's my understanding that 90% of the charging infrastructure in the US is Level 2, but I can't quantify how many offer higher power.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
Can you divulge at what temperature of the pack that charging is impacted? I am looking at the SR/F but MCN's long term review of their Zero was not encouraging with regards to charging and the pack temperatures being high during rush hour commuting
Does Zero plan to move liquid cooled packs?
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Can you divulge at what temperature of the pack that charging is impacted? I am looking at the SR/F but MCN's long term review of their Zero was not encouraging with regards to charging and the pack temperatures being high during rush hour commuting
Does Zero plan to move liquid cooled packs?
It's the same battery that's in the current line of bikes. I took a long trip up the coast on my SR this last weekend and was getting full 1C power as high as 126ËšF. I think the battery shuts off around 137ËšF.
The complexity involved in liquid cooling these packs is... quite high. Considering that and the fact that currently all the cells are potted makes this very unlikely. I'd be shocked if you were getting close to thermal cutback from rush hour commuting, though. You can drive a constant 70mph all day with full charges at all stops and not meet thermal cutback.
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I have went on road trips with my Energica Eva which involved multiple CCS charging stops. Charging speed slowing down due to the battery heating up only happened when air temps were getting above mid 80s or so. I live in North Carolina so this would happen occasionally in the summertime. I would love to see Energica go to a liquid cooling system for their battery but when you look at the frequency and severity of the problem it isn't that bad. Sucks when it does though. I don't see Zero ever going back to selling a CHAdeMO system so I am not sure how much benefit there would be for a liquid cooled battery when you only have L2 charging. I realize our European friends can charge a lot faster than we can in the US just because of higher L2 charging power. Maybe they see this issue differently though. No question though liquid cooling of the battery pack it going to raise the price of the bikes.
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> I realize our European friends can charge a lot faster than we can in the US just because of higher L2 charging power. ...
European Mennekes Level 2 can go to 6.6kw in each phase of 3 phases, or ~20kw, not really much higher than the 18kw J1772 plugs can do. It's just the charging networks not implementing faster stations, probably since the automakers are slow-walking EV in favor of their fossil-vehicle profits.