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Messages - yhafting

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1
Energica / Re: Limp mode at ~25% Battery
« on: July 18, 2023, 10:36:56 PM »
Quote from: Specter on July 10, 2023, 04:31:07 AM
Once you drop below 20 percent it will put you into I guess you could call it 'Rain Mode'.  It's very conservative on what it will allow you to do, your acceleration is limited but from what I have seen on my Ribelle, you can still get up to 80 MPH or more, just takes a bit to get up there, like maybe 15 seconds instead of maybe 3 or 4.

That is not true. There is slightly lower performance due to battery voltage dropping throughout the range, however if you experience any sudden drops in performance, it is usually due to cell imbalance, as is clearly the case for the OP. Ive had my share of poor performance due to cell imbalance, and i got a new battery on warranty- which does work well, even below 20%. A poorly balanced bike will at some point limit power output at nearly any SOC, but it can vary throughout the ride (ie if one cell is thoroughly depleted at 50% SOC, you will get limp mode at 50%, but stopping for 2 minutes may be all that it takes to clear it). 

A bike that is sold after running ~500 miles is probably not a good thing, because it likely has been sitting without being balanced for a long time. The bike does not balance well unless charged fully; although possible- it does not seem to be implemented that way (It may report some balancing attempt when DC charging at a rate that is near causing trouble with poorly balanced cells). 

When experiencing any sort of issue with balancing, make sure the bike does its balancing every day, rather than working it at 20-80%. If you are not able to bring the cells back into balance you will get all sorts of issues, and in the end you can have the bike limping above 50%. Balancing issues trumps any sort of longevity issues- there is no point in saving the top 20% if you have balancing issues which will cause issues with both regeneration at high charge status and limp mode at increasingly high SOCs.

The recommendation should always be prioritizing balance over longevity (replug when it has stopped charging to 100%). Make sure you replug when full at least once a week, and let the bike finish balancing. If balancing takes more than 10-15 minutes then do it again, if not before the next ride, then after. If the bike is not reporting 100% charge when starting a ride after charging to full, replug and let it balance.   

2
Parts, Mods And Hacks / Re: traction control through SEVCON or Zero-app?
« on: July 03, 2023, 02:21:16 AM »
Quote from: Specter on May 15, 2023, 05:41:57 AM
... The math can get a bit complicated, and very dynamic quickly too !!  it'd have to also  honestly be millisecond accurate to be of any real use too. ...
Aaron
No, the math here is dead simple. You set a parameter, and then that parameter is used whenever any other control input suggests other use. It does not have to be reactive if you limit acceleration or maximum speed.

Now a proper traction control would be better, and making something that is a lot faster than human and cuts power until traction can be regained is not that hard. Doing it so it gives a good feel of control is a different matter.

Personally i went and bought a bike with proper traction control two years ago, so I found a solution for me, but it would of course be interesting if someone had the chance to try out these settings, but I will not encourage anyone to go out and try breaking on asphalt to see if it works. If someone has the equipment setting the max acceleration low and then trying on gravel or some place you would expect to spil (snow, mud etc) to feel if it makes the difference
 or what it takes to make it work reasonably. 

3
Energica / Re: Key not in range issue.
« on: May 31, 2023, 01:51:47 AM »
Quote from: DonTom on May 29, 2023, 08:51:09 PM

I just don't see the big deal about seeing that "key not in range" message and hitting the mode button once to get rid of it.

-Don-  Reno, NV

The thing is that i get that message at least 4-5 times every commute, twice a day (somewhat less frequent when riding in less dense traffic, such as hitting twisty roads on a sunday). The message gets in the way of reading the dash frequently when filtering or in busy traffic, which simply isnt an option when i can avoid it as easily as using the passive key.

 For me, the "key" of the "keyless" is not really leaving the key in the pocket at all times, but not risking to leave my keys on the bike, having the keys or bike stolen or lost, or having to disconnect the bike keys from the chain every ride. Not saying i would not prefer the fob working, but the passive key is still much better than an actively keyed bike. Using the code for starting is just too slow to make any sense except in the event that the keys got lost or stolen.

4
Energica / Re: Key not in range issue.
« on: May 27, 2023, 09:56:10 PM »
Quote from: smithy on May 25, 2023, 01:26:20 AM
Hi All,

My Experia is running fine and no major issues to report.....except the silly "Key not in range" warning....My Experia is the "keyless" version, (I'm probably regretting that now), during my ~52km commute each way to work I can get as many as 6-7 key not in range warnings...not a deal breaker but it's becoming annoying. The owners manual says the key fob should be within 1.5m of the sensor which lives behind the dash panel just to the right of the TFT. I have my key fob in the "Frunk" for my travels and this makes it less than 30cm (1 foot) away from the sensor, I've replaced the fob battery twice and it seems to make no difference. I'm running version .042 firmware.

Anybody have any ideas..?? Is there a later firmware version which may sort it..??

Smithy.

By using the passive key, you do not get the "key not in range" error.

I've done this for more than a week now without issues. Im still on fw 41 (still a bit worried there were no update on latest service..).

You only need the passive key near the bike when starting it, so it is not as much hassle as one could believe. Comparing to a normally keyed bike, it still has the benefit that i can pocket the key after starting it.  I keep the bike key on the same keychain as my other keys - which i would not do if i had to leave them in the bike while riding.

5
Energica / Firmware, BDY and DSB after changing battery
« on: April 29, 2023, 05:55:58 PM »
Hi all.
I just got my bike back after 5 months at the dealer: Winter storage, Service and Battery swapped (on warranty).
In the process of changing the battery, the VCU died, so that was changed too, adding two weeks to the process. 

I would expect the firmware to be upgraded to V42, but as it stands i still got 41.
on the settings/about menu i see the following:

FW: EN.A.002615.041
Version BDY: 8.0.1
Version DSB: 234

The Version BDY was changed from 7.0.2 from previous year, other than that everything is unchanged. Im not sure why the FW wasnt updated during service, are there reasons for not doing that?

Previously, as it seemed, the battery did not balance on ordinary AC charging (Only DC - if i were able to adjust the current accordingly throughout the whole process).
Is this related to FW or is the battery management disjunct from the VCU and FW status?

I would love to hear or see what BDY and DSB version means too..


6
Energica / Re: Clearing Faults
« on: February 15, 2023, 03:40:27 AM »
Quote from: Dryer667 on February 06, 2023, 01:02:10 AM
The second option is just cycling the bike enough times that the check "engine" light goes out. It doesn't actually reset or reboot anything. On Zero's and I believe Energicas, the check "engine" light can come up when there are minor faults that remedy themselves but the light stays on for 3-4 run cycles of the bike. On my Zero it actually has to turn on and off that many times, not just flipping the run/go mode.
I guess what you are referring to is switching between go mode and either kickstand down or killswitch 4 times which will reset the VCU. This procedure will clear fault messages that may otherwise hinder the bike from starting, such as carious "undefined faults", unless the fault is persistent (i have not experienced such persistence).

The downside is that any error messages may be lost in such a procedure, but it will get you going most of the time. If possible check the diagnostic screen before performing this routine.

7
Energica / Re: All weather brake disk?
« on: November 06, 2022, 04:05:23 PM »
Quote from: Demoni on November 06, 2022, 01:19:30 PM
You would be hard pressed to find solid rotors large enough to fit your bike. There are many reasons most all manufactures have swapped to semi floating rotors. The machining tolerances are tighter, they are lighter and they provide better braking performance.

Most factory rotors including those on your bike are quite stiff and do not allow much side to side movement. As you have experienced when you introduce dirt, rust and brake dust to the tighter tolerances of the rotor buttons it can lead to rotors not performing correctly.
Aftermarket brake rotors are often equipped with fully floating rotors, allowing much more movement side to side. This also mostly eliminates the stiction between the rotor and the carrier.

There are a few things you need to take into account when looking for aftermarket rotors: outside diameter (330mm), inside diameter (rotor needs to be supported by the wheel lips), thickness (thicker rotors may not be compatible with your calipers or pads), hole pattern, hole spacing and offset (required for correct positioning of the calipers). I do not know off hand what manufactures make rotors that will fit your bike.
Thanks Chris, i appreciate that input. I also noticed fixed 330mm disks are hard to come by. It seems a fully floating system, if available in stainless and correct size, may be easier to maintain then.   

8
Energica / All weather brake disk?
« on: November 05, 2022, 01:50:20 AM »
After riding the SS9 in 1.5 years, ive noticed that the brakes practically needs servicing (lots of brake disk cleaner) every rainshower i go through to maintain performance. 

Generally i now ride about 9-10kkm each year in which prehaps half is for pleasure, the other half is commuting (2x 42km per day), in all sorts of weather. Im not a particularly fast or slow rider.

Having realised that the brake disk buttons need servicing every time (i do feel the difference), ive started to ponder whether fixed or floating disks is the right thing for me? Most of the time, i barely touch the brakes, but as any - there are times where i too need to stop the bike, so some performance is not a bad thing. However what will actually give optimum performance, given that i ride no matter conditions (as long as im able to stay warm).

Is it possible that a fixed disk rotor would be better since the rotor wont be prone to getting dust and debris into the rotor buttons?
Are there any other valid options that may perform better than the standard brembos, considering this?

9
Energica / Re: Periodic drain to 0% required on 21kw batteries?
« on: November 03, 2022, 01:27:31 AM »
Quote from: BigPoppa on November 01, 2022, 11:06:37 PM
Do I no longer need to drain it to 0% to maintain battery health?

I dont think it should matter for the battery health.

However i got rid of a lot of recurring messages (key not found etc) when i did. It does seem strange that it should help at all, and i have no idea if 0% is needed (could be 10 or 20% for that matter to me), but im 100% sure something was reset by doing that. It did not help on the "undefined fault" part i have seen, but i had a few other odd messages that went away along with the (daily) key not found errors. Im sure this is 100% fixable in firmware (mine was FW EN.A.002615.041, and BDY 7.0.2, DSB 234).

10
Energica / Re: 2017 EsseEsse9: “Undefined Fault”
« on: November 03, 2022, 01:14:09 AM »
Quote from: DonTom on November 02, 2022, 11:21:14 AM
Quote from: ColdSoda on November 02, 2022, 10:29:00 AM
[ Some think it may be due to charging to higher SOC but not allowing the balance to complete.
Why would anybody expect that?

I have a 2020 SS9- and I usually fast charge it to around 95% SOC before I disconnect. I can't see why that would only cause problems on the newer bikes.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
[/quote]

As Demoni / Chris says, the error message in itself doesnt indicate anything in particular, so what to expect depends on how it occurs.

What some experience (me included- bike sent to italy for diagnosis/repair) is a few things that may follow each other:
1: You get undefined faults when regenerating at high SOCs
2: The bike struggles with balancing while fast charging- ie the charging current bounces up and down- unless manually dialed down
3: The bike limits power at lower SOCs- quite heavily- say when going uphill at 80-90km/h and you try to overtake a car, and there is absolutely nothing to fetch while it is clearly not traction control stepping in.

During normal riding, 3 is hard to identify, because it is sporadic, and you can get limited in one go and 5 seconds later it is already better, and if you, like me mostly use the bike between 90 and 60% SOC this is not likely something you will see until something is very wrong. 1 and 2 on the other hand is easier to spot. Charge the bike to full and roll down a hill with regen on (i dont reccomend doing this, but it will likely provoke the fault if it is there). 2 will likely happen anywhere from 50% SOC and up when DC charging at full speed.

What it seems (there are other options too, however unlikely) is that the bike doesn't balance the battery properly, which results in one or more cells getting weak. Whether or not they can be saved is (to me, while writing this) an open question. A weak cell may both be depleted faster and reach high voltages faster, which explains both 1. and 3. since the bike has built in features to protect the battery from harm. For 2, it seems the bike has trouble adjusting charging speed on DC chargers when the bike really needs to balance.
 
If this is caused by issues having the bike balanced, it may shed some light if it is related to how we charge. I mostly charge AC on reduced speed overnight (due to power related tariffs on electricity), but although the bike reports starting to balance, it does not seem to help-- except for the last trip to the dealer (~350km) where i manually set the DC charging speed to the level where it would balance without bouncing up and down - - at that trip, i DC charged 3 times: The first time, i was limited to 15A at 65% SOC, and 10A at 69%, so i gave up at 70%. The next charging session i got 20A up to 68%, while the last session was much better (still not at full speed)- but then obviously the battery must have gotten warmer from the 7Celcius it started at.

To understand this i guess one would need to know how the bike balances and what triggers balancing.

Anyway, if the bike has these issues, changing firmware might help (if the issue is a bike not balancing batteries when it should), but that is in the long run, not for the next ride.

11
Energica / Re: Champ School on Energica?
« on: October 26, 2022, 05:22:52 PM »
Quote from: bbribelle on October 25, 2022, 11:22:01 PM
Has anyone taken the Yamaha Champ School (2day) on a 21.5 kWh Eva Ribelle?  I only live about 30 miles from the Willow Springs Raceway where the class is being held.  I'm beginning to have track range anxiety and am looking into charging options.  It would be great to know if someone has gone through the class with their Energica and how much charge was used.

The only outlets which may available at the track are standard 120V 15A.  My original intent was to ride the bike down and back assuming there would be enough capacity for the class with whatever topping off I can get from the available outlets.  Trailering the bike down will save the charge getting there and leave me an out if I really run the bike down.

There are DCFC charges about 20 miles away on one of my routes home if I need some charge after the class.

The closest DCFC charger is 10 miles away in the wrong direction. I could run to the close charger during lunch and charge for about 30 minutes. 

Another option I'm considering is renting 240V 30A generator which ads expense and hassle but it may be the best way to go.

Any thoughts?

When i did a rider skill course this summer, i managed to end the day with 70% battery, charging only 10A@230V between sessions of 15 min each hour.

I dont remember every figure on top of my head, but i know i used more than a full battery during the day, and i charged to almost full during the lunch break. It is entirely possible to have twice my consumption if the track and rider is faster. Id expect the average champ-U student to ride faster than me (it is at least where i live- much more expensive than the course i went to).

One key is easy access. If you need to spend 10-20 minutes each break setting up charging, you will not enjoy your day half as much as if you can just plug the bike in when parking in the pauses. Im very happy that this was solved in my case. Talking to the other participants and crew between riding is half the experience.

If the track has a set up for tire warmers and such, at least have that readied. For a 230V 30A generator, you will probably run it at half capacity. If bringing it is easy id do it. Going electric is not about saving the environment on the first track day. Bringing the bike will surely draw attention enough and showcase what facilities will be expected in the future.

15A @ 120V seems a little underwhelming. I had 10A@230V which is more- but you will likely need more than that. Id much rather get AC between sessions than searching for a DC option (which may be occupied) every other or third run.

12
Energica / Re: Gearing Change Results
« on: October 01, 2022, 03:47:11 AM »
Quote from: tunafish_phd on September 26, 2022, 11:22:08 PM
As it cools off in my area a bit, I'm getting more motivated to do a bunch of sprocket changes again.

I'm putting together a loop with minimal stops and traffic and will be running on cruise control as much as possible. For speeds, I'm leaning towards doing 2 runs. One favoring the Speedo for Cruise control, one favoring GPS speeds, Just to see how things stack up, for a total of 4 runs.

Data Points to gather on each run:
1. Odometer reading vs GPS mileage reading
2. SOC at start/end
3. Wh/mi avg reading at a known point in the loop
4. Speedo vs GPS reading at 20/40/60 MPH dash

I realize these are only single data points, but I only have so much time/patience for this at this point.

If you want comparable results for different gearing, you need
  a fixed route, starting and stopping at the same elevation
  fixed speed throughout the course
  fixed temperature
  no winds
AND
  you need to compare how much charge you put into the bike each day- not the bike readout (lots of potential errors).

Even on a fixed route, my daily usage varies a lot.

I commute a fixed route of 83+-1km (depending on map service used to calculate the route).  On normal weekdays i charge my SS9+ for just that trip. I get data from the charging box (easee smart charger) which is used solely for the bike.

The lowest consumption i have this year is 5.8kWh one day, maximum is above 10kWh. In August i went relatively consistently below 7 kWh and in May i was mostly at or just below 8 kwh- for the same trip. Wind, temperature and speed has of course everything to do with this. I use significantly less when traversing congested traffic at 20-30 km/h than the usual 80-90 on the same stretches, and wind is generally bad no matter what direction it comes from, because it adds more than it subtracts when going against or sideways vs with its direction.   

Adding some data, i have run the bike down to 1% once and then 0% (not stopping) another time. Those days i charged 18.34k and 18.72 kWh, which may or may not seem reasonable considering 18.9kWh  advertised capacity, and charge loss is hidden within those figures, so the battery probably stored a few percent less. Range I got was about 230 km as reported by the bike, (i have no better measurement, as i spent the last km's circling very close to home to avoid having to push the bike up hill or for hours.

If the odometer is reasonably accurate i thus got 18,72kWh / 230km =  81,4 Wh/km when emptying the battery- That is a day i was not holding back (i wanted it done) so no slow riding, but no American or German highways either- mostly twisty roads limited around 60-80km/h. Comparably my commute varies from 70 to 120wh/km (typically between 84 and 96 wh/km) - as reported by the charger.

Using the bike to get reported wh/km is meaningless because it uses a moving average of a few km/s. The bike SoC status does change a few percent (around 10% of what is used on a trip of 41.5 km) after the battery has rested for a few minutes, or when temperature changes. SoC is thus not an accurate measure of consumption. 

TL:DR Single trip energy usage can be expected to vary quite a lot: 10%+ in similar conditions, and you need to measure consumption outside the bike to get good data. 

13
Energica / Re: Does it help bringing the bike to 1% SOC?
« on: August 26, 2022, 11:55:05 PM »
Quote from: DonTom on August 26, 2022, 11:16:54 PM
But what does that do?  Is it only for calibration of the SOC?

-Don-  Auburn, CA

It does something at least- I had 1 week without faults, warnings or MIL light after i got the bike to 1%.
Since i had MIL light yesterday, then Undefined fault (when decelerating before a red light) today, i will attempt running the bike empty again to see if what i did last time (1 week w/o issues) can be replicated by
A: Not using regen before 95% +
B: only charging to full once after draining the battery.
I'm guessing it won't hold indefinitely but all the better if it does.

It feels like regen is weaker before/after i run into the "undefined fault" causing regen and propulsion to release completely.

14
Energica / Re: Does it help bringing the bike to 1% SOC?
« on: August 24, 2022, 10:54:04 PM »
Quote from: SBK74 on August 24, 2022, 01:44:38 PM
Interesting topic. Talking with other riders last Sunday, it was mentioned that the 'Key not in range' issue was related to CPU capacity. On timed interval, the bike checks the presence of the key, however when the CPU is very busy, that task is being disturbed they said.

Now with that information in mind, indeed the message comes often when driving spirited or with speed bumps, that makes the E-ABS has to kick in. It could be that low SOC driving does not trigger TC or E-ABS as much, so the issue is less frequent. Just another point of view.

Hmm if the key not in range is a CPU capacity issue, that too might explain the throttle issues ive had.
I had throttle issue once today (perhaps more, but one time i am 100% sure). Today, i had one time i rolled on throttle with almost no response (it felt like a gas car when the air filter is clogged). After that, the throttle worked mostly as expected, although it is hard to tell, as it is mostly noticable when i ask for rather much power quickly (ie not so much during commute).

If the CPU is not able to service the throttle during riding, the firmware needs a thorough revision. Of course i cannot tell if there are more than one issue on my bike, but a CPU running too much could be an explanation. I wonder if there are ways to reduce the number of service algorithms run. If there is such an issue, removing something unimportant (bluetooth/ etc) may help a lot. Then again, I hope they have not put the same CPU servicing bluetooth, keys and throttle, but that would explain a lot.

What we need then is a way to reduce CPU load to see if that does help...

I would live happy without Bluetooth/ GPS/ connection to phone. I could safely go without Cruice control, although i would miss it. Air temperature is strictly not needed, but i love having it even if it is 5 celcius off. But then it does not seems there are any tangible ways of turning these things off..

15
Energica / Re: Does it help bringing the bike to 1% SOC?
« on: August 23, 2022, 11:15:16 PM »
Quote from: BigPoppa on August 23, 2022, 06:46:16 PM
Both my 13kw EsseEsse9 and my Ribelle state(d) this in their owners manuals. I’ve always struggled a bit with this. I left myself stranded about a mile from my house trying to get the bike down to 0% and had to call a tow truck to get it home.

Since then, as long as I get it down to single digits I consider that good enough (I may very well be wrong though). Has anyone figured out an easy way to drain the battery without having to ride it umpteen loops up and down your local street?

Also, I can now say with confidence that the Key Not In Range issue is firmware related. I just got my bike back from it's 6k service where I had the dealer update my firmware. I was 6 versions behind and since taking delivery of the bike, I never had the Key Not In Range message show up. In addition, I could leave the fob in my jacket pocket or hold it about waist to chest high above the bike and it would start without issue.

Since the firmware up date to 41, I now get the Key Not In Range message about twice during my daily commute (each way) and I have to sit the key on the tongue of the seat for the bike to recognize it and start up. My uneducated guess is that somewhere along the line the required signal strength for the key to be recognized was changed to a higher value and never changed back.
This is interesting. I got the key not in range message again today (unusually long since last time), but only once today. Usually when it happens the message occurs after each stop on that trip. Im also sure it is a fw. issue, since i nevery have a problem starting and stopping the bike, despite all those warnings.

Depleting the battery for every 10-20 charge cycle would mean every 2150-4300 km or so. Lets say every 3000 km, then i should have done it 5 times so far having past 15kkm. If i were to do so, that would imply risking taking the bike to 0 both late autumn and spring.. If such an exercise really is necessary, i would suggest finding a way to allow the bike to dump the last few percent of charge by itself (as a programmed option when on a stand and connected to the battery) rather than having the user doing so by riding the bike.   

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