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Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it. Does anyone else have any experience or data regarding bikes that have this issue--do they slowly degrade, or does the existing problem mean it is going to rapidly deteriorate to being unusable?

As-is, I am okay with having 25 miles of real range, that's all I need. Below that it is a paperweight for me, but I suppose it may have value to someone who only needs 10 mile range... as long as the rate of range degradation isn't quick, it is usable.

I guess I will find out, and will report back here...

I think you might be at the stage where it's worth downloading your BMS logs for parsing and seeing just how bad it might be. Fire up your app and download the logs. Send the files to this website: https://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/

From there you can start looking through and becoming familiar with which cell(s) are acting up and how badly.

Thanks your input and help MVetter!

Here is the section of the BMS log of the 5 minutes where I went from 47% to 4%, riding at 55mph on a fairly flat road:

03798     07/20/2023 20:51:18   Discharge level            011 AH, SOC: 47%, I: 27A, L:3524, l:3578, H:3558, B:034, PT:039C, BT:043C, PV: 99102, M:Bike On
 03799     07/20/2023 20:51:18   SOC:4450,8284,11958,22770,48,36,47,22
 03800     07/20/2023 20:51:18   Discharge cutback          82%
 03801     07/20/2023 20:51:18   186A
 03802     07/20/2023 20:52:18   Discharge level            012 AH, SOC: 42%, I: 18A, L:3474, l:3538, H:3545, B:071, PT:039C, BT:043C, PV: 98492, M:Bike On
 03803     07/20/2023 20:52:18   SOC:4723,8057,12232,22770,47,25,42,26
 03804     07/20/2023 20:52:18   Discharge cutback          69%
 03805     07/20/2023 20:52:18   157A
 03806     07/20/2023 20:53:18   Discharge level            012 AH, SOC: 33%, I: 15A, L:3419, l:3489, H:3534, B:115, PT:040C, BT:043C, PV: 98053, M:Bike On
 03807     07/20/2023 20:53:18   SOC:5029,7451,12540,22770,45,12,33,28
 03808     07/20/2023 20:53:18   Discharge cutback          54%
 03809     07/20/2023 20:53:18   121A
 03810     07/20/2023 20:54:18   Discharge level            012 AH, SOC: 25%, I: 20A, L:3378, l:3459, H:3515, B:137, PT:040C, BT:043C, PV: 97374, M:Bike On
 03811     07/20/2023 20:54:18   SOC:5290,7008,12802,22770,44,7,25,31
 03812     07/20/2023 20:54:18   Discharge cutback          51%
 03813     07/20/2023 20:54:18   116A
 03814     07/20/2023 20:54:34   Discharged To Low          012 AH, SOC: 22%,         L:3332,         H:3493, B:161, PT:040C, BT:042C, PV: 96593
 03815     07/20/2023 20:55:18   Discharge level            013 AH, SOC: 14%, I: 23A, L:3305, l:3419, H:3479, B:174, PT:040C, BT:042C, PV: 96077, M:Bike On
 03816     07/20/2023 20:55:18   SOC:5692,6589,13205,22770,43,2,14,38
 03817     07/20/2023 20:55:18   Discharge cutback          40%
 03818     07/20/2023 20:55:18   91A
 03819     07/20/2023 20:56:18   Discharge level            013 AH, SOC:  4%, I: 31A, L:3204, l:3416, H:3429, B:225, PT:040C, BT:042C, PV: 94192, M:Bike On
 03820     07/20/2023 20:56:18   SOC:6156,6412,13675,22770,40,1,4,48
 03821     07/20/2023 20:56:18   Discharge cutback          22%
 03822     07/20/2023 20:56:18   49A

I have no idea how to interpret this.... what is this telling me?

Is there a guide to interpret the line "SOC:6156,6412,13675,22770,40,1,4,48" and the line
 "Discharge level            013 AH, SOC:  4%, I: 31A, L:3204, l:3416, H:3429, B:225, PT:040C, BT:042C, PV: 94192, M:Bike On"

Although I can't be certain the previous owner was keeping it at 60%, he was aware that that is the best charge to store it at, and he said he was doing it... the first few years I was keeping it charged to 100% and plugged in when not in use, since that is what Zero was recommending... but in terms of discharging it to the lower SOC's that was rare, I pretty much kept it above 30% SOC. Most the mileage on the bike was from a 12 mile (each way) commute, which was pretty easy to do that round trip and get back home with 40% SOC.

Is having the power tank an issue? How does the power tank cells appear on the BMS log (or does it)?

What, there isn't a recent thread where I can whine and complain about range!?! I guess I'll have to start one!

Greetings Zero owners, I'm back, and as whiny as ever.

I had sold my 2014 Zero S with power tank two years ago... and about a month ago I bought it back, with only a few hundred miles more on it, now at about 24,000 miles (bought it back for the same price I sold it, $5k). My reasoning is I now I have new job that is 25 miles from my house, and they have an entire line of free chargers in front of my building, mostly unused. I thought for sure the bike could go both ways on a single charge and thus I'd be getting "free gas" (and could justify another motorcycle!)

Well, uh, long story short, both times I tried to do a full loop on a single charge (50 miles total), even riding conservatively (55-60 mph or slower, with 75% at that speed and 25% slower) I ended up with the bike showing zero percent charge 5+ miles before reaching my destination. When I did it riding back to work it was super stressful because if it died I would have been late to work and it is a new job. Way more exciting than I needed it to be, but I did make it to work. I was pissed, because I was riding very conservatively, and (at least on this and most days) don't go above 60 mph. (Btw I weight 165 lbs and the bike has a windscreen)

Today riding back home I had quite the experience:

The bike went from 47% SOC (102 volts) (I had stopped half-way for 1+ hours on my way home) to 3-4% SOC (voltage unknown) in about 2.5 miles going 60 mph on flat ground(no exaggeration) and I still had 8 miles and a 2000+ foot climb to get back home. Basically I rode 5-6 miles uphill with the display showing 0% SOC, going 45-55 mph, with some power limiting, but still able to go 45 mph up until the last mile or so.

I made it home without the bike dying... but I wanted to know how large the "empty tank" was... as an experiment, I kept going up the hill, figuring I could turn around and roll back down even if it dies now. So it went about a mile more and it finally died. When I got home the phone app showed the battery at 97 volts (sitting for an hour or so it went up to 98 volts and showed 14% charge).

So is this normal behavior? I looked up the graphs on the wiki page ( https://zeromanual.com/wiki/File:Soc_vs_voltage.png ) and I guess that's what it shows, and the bike is shutting off at 97 volts. So that is a hard limit? I have the memory of people on the forum saying that 87 volts was the magical "empty" voltage number. No?

Actually I have been taking screenshots of my app with the bike having gone 25 miles (either to work or to home) and voltage ranges from 104-106 volts after 25 "easy" miles.

Some questions:
1) is my apparent rapid discharge while riding normally (47% to 3% in less than 3 miles) a sign of a battery problem or just some weird SOC calculation issue? 

2) How about going from full charge to 105 volts in 25 "medium" miles (55 mph)?

3) I have screenshots showing 14% SOC at 98 volts and on a separate occasion, 15% SOC at 103 volts. why such a big difference in voltage at the same SOC?What other parameter figure into the SOC number? Cell balance?

4) Reading the wiki page on the Zero battery made me realize that even if I can do both directions on a single charge, it would make sense to charge the bike at home and at work to improve battery longevity... or is there enough buffer to where the effect of riding to 97-98 volts is not going to make a major difference in battery longevity? The cost and trouble are actually minimal, mostly I'd just be losing bragging rights of saying I don't pay anything for "gas"...

5) Will my SOC display become more accurate now that it "knows" how far the bike can go before hitting the shutoff voltage?

Thanks in advance,

-Alan

< 24k miles. This is a Zero S ZF 11.4 model with the power tank upgrade = 14.2 kwh total battery capacity. Yellow body.

Always factory serviced, latest firmware updates and recent new drive belt. Front fork oil has been recently changed.

Includes the Zero Delta-Q off-board charger. The onboard charger has failed three times and I believe that if it were replaced again it would fail again due to a design issue, but the Delta-Q is small enough to carry on a rear top bag or case. In the past year the main motor controller was replaced ($1000) and the ignition switch was replaced. It has new tires (Continental Road Attack front, Metzler Roadtec 01 rear).

I have not noticed any obvious loss of range on a full charge after ~24k miles. The bike has been dropped at a standstill twice but never been crashed. Has many, many years of life left in it.

The only modification it has is the rear brake is now controlled by the left lever (since there is no clutch lever on the left side). I found this much easier to modulate the rear brake under hard braking versus a foot brake pedal .

Located in Woodland, California. I am firm on the price, I will ignore offers below $5000.

3 days ago, I had to be fast (by fast, I mean legal top speed, but not EV friendly), and I reached 23 % SOC while I was at 12 miles from my goal. Then problems began : My top speed had been reduced to 55 mph,  At 18 %, 30 mph with praticaly no torque. and then the SOC dropped suddenly from 13% to 0 and the bike stopped.

I was 5 miles from home and someone had to pick me up. Fortunately kind people let me charge during the night and I get the bike fully charged the day after.

So one observation I have on my 2014 is that the firmware updates have *radically* changed the SOC display on the dash. Previously my bike was stopping dead at 11% displayed SOC. After the last firmware update about a year ago, I can clearly run to zero, although the temperature dependence of the display and the amount of "displayed recovery" is now huge. For example, I will ride home at freeway speed (about 25 miles) going from 100% SOC to 6% when I arrive home, then a couple hours later with the bike parked, the display shows 38%. Or it recovers from 30% to 68%. With older firmware there was some recovery, but not 30+%. I think it is both more accurate and more confusing....  maybe I am misunderstanding the details of your post, and I am not super into the technical aspects, but in general I do not equate anything the bike reports as some solid indicator of real battery capacity. The software also seems to be trying to estimate your future rate of discharge, ie, the display goes up in capacity when I get off the freeway and ride on the street. All this type of stuff has been reported by others here.

I think you'd have to literally do a scientific experiment, testing range under controlled conditions, when you buy the bike vs. 5 years later (for example) but even that is not "reality" because running to shutoff is controlled by the firmware.

So my question is have you been getting your bike's firmware updated regularly? But even with the same firmware, you could only make some sort of argument of loss of battery capacity if you had a test case where you typically would consistently ride X miles until the bike died, and now you are consistently only able to ride (80% * X) miles until the bike dies. Since you haven't been running the bike to that extent, it's unclear if you have lost any true battery capacity... right?

I was in love with the Dunlop GPR300s on my Ninja 400 after 2 trackdays, they stick like glue. However, using the Ninja as my commute vehicle quickly wore a flat spot into the rear within 2k miles. But about six weeks ago I got my Zero S back into action (bought the $600 delta-Q, my onboard is still toast), which had a brand new Michelin Street Radial on the rear. So I have about 1500 miles on it now (50 mile round trip daily commute), and the tire look brand new, no flat spot at all. Sounds like a rave review, however....

So last night coming home I get on the freeway cloverleaf from a stop light, it's a 90 degree turn to get onto the ramp. It's my regular way home so I know the turn pretty well. I braked hard, leaned over, rolled on the throttle as I straightened up and had my rear break loose a few inches! This is on a Zero S (54 horsepower) on dry pavement!!! Wow! It recovered fine and no problem, but I've never had that happen to me. No gravel, no bumps.

Okay, so I have reached the conclusion that I reached the performance limit of the long-wearing Street Radials. Feeling the Street Radial tire by hand vs. the GPR300 is like night and day. The Michelin feels (and looks) like plastic whereas the GPR300 feels like rubber. I also was keeping my rear tire at 38 PSI, hoping it would increase my range (didn't notice a difference). I just lowered it back down.

So yeah. I feel like these two tires are on opposite extremes of long-wearing versus high grip. I was ready to rave about the Street Radials, because before yesterday the grip seemed fine. I guess it's fine until it isn't!

Strangely, the GPR300 lasted longer on twisty roads and track days versus on my flat freeway commute. The flat spot is pronounced and I don't have much more than 2k miles on the rear.

Any suggestions for a tire that is somewhere in the middle of these extremes of wear and grip? 

How many miles can you get out of a Diablo Rosso II doing mostly flat commuter miles?

Thanks for the reply. So my onboard charger failed again (3rd time) and want to charge the bike without the onboard charger. As far as working with electronics, I was a manufacturing and design engineering technician for silicon valley tech companies for about fifteen years. Obviously I have no specific experience with this issue, thus my questions... I remember seeing a specific thread and diagram a while back but I can't find it now. It was a photo of a toggle switch connected directly to a connector, I think the onboard charger connector.

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

So I was informed I will need to have a "charge enable switch" if I am to charge externally from a "dumb" charger.

Is that this setup??? https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Advanced_Modifications#Charging_Off_Bike