ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: lolachampcar on February 05, 2013, 10:11:43 PM
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I was just looking over the accessories page and saw the $1800 extra for the CHAdeMO adaptor. I find that a bit surprising given that Zero has promoted the 2013s as CHAdeMO capable. I guess they are if you add 11 !/4 percent to the price of the bike (plus shipping and installation).
It does not detract from an awesome bike and we do not have CHAdeMO in FL so its no big deal for me. It is just one more bad taste in the mouth for marketing moment for me.
Unless I read it wrong, the fast charger for the 2013 S/DS is $399 PLUS $400. $800 for a 1.3KW charger seems a bit high given Tesla's $1500 to add a second 10KW charger to the Model S. Those that know a lot more than I about charger costs - does this seem like good value?
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what's the $399 and $400 respectively? one is charger, one is the J1772? $400 for another charger is a good deal IMHO.
Tesla likely makes more money on the car/built in charger so they can give the $1500 chargers away at or below cost. It's just upselling, but they already have you for the amount of the car... and likely they tell you that you need to order it at time of purchase. 10kw is an amazing price, but I'm almost certain that you would not be able to just go buy one, even after you purchased the car, for $1500.
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Given that a plain chademo plug is near $1000 in low volume by itself not counting wiring, support and at least some 50% markup on accessories this seems more than fair for a MSRP. If it becomes a popular option and ends up becoming standard on the bikes those costs will come down.
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For comparison:
A 1.4kw clipper creek 110 to J1772 adapter goes for $700. A 5kw level 2 "install on the wall" J1772 adapter from the same company costs $800.
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A single charger is 10.0 kWh * 0.95 / 7.4 hours = 1.28 kW = ~1.3 kW
Onboard + quick charger is 10.0 kWh * 0.95 / 4.1 hours = 2.31 kW = ~2.3 kW
Edit: The quick charger is definitely a 1kW Delta-Q QuiQ. It seems the quick charger is $750 for the FX/MX/XU, $800 for the S/DS per Zero's online store (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=149). This pricing seems very high, and I doubt it includes the J1772 inlet : /
I suspect the quick charger is a 1 kW Delta-Q. For the 2012 bikes this charger was priced at $400 .. so probably the other $400 is a J1772 inlet. Not sure where the charger would be mounted - maybe under the tank or under the tail?
Tesla's prices for their 10 kW charger are very good.
Consider the following comparisons with sample Elcon prices (http://evolveelectrics.com/Elcon%20Chargers.html):
Delta-Q 1 kW $400 $800
Elcon 1.5 kW $340 + $90 shipping ($430)
Elcon 2.5 kW $540 + $100 shipping ($640)
Elcon 8 kW $2180 + $240 shipping ($2420)
Tesla 10 kW $1500
The Delta-Q is (edit) very expensive IMO. More importantly, it's very bulky for the relatively low charging power. Then again, it's 100% passively cooled and sealed against everything up to immersion.
Note that the price for the J1772 inlet last year was $500 - so a 2 kW total charging system would cost $900 additional, and I bet the additional charger will be neatly integrated into the 2013 bikes.
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Edit: all of the below assumes the Zero has an additional Delta-Q ($800) integrated onboard and Zero's accessory J1772 inlet ($400). With only the stock 1.3 kW charger the Zero will charge no faster on J1772/240V than it can on a 15A 110V circuit.
Brammo Empulse R, 121 miles city / 56 miles highway
| Charge Type | SOC | Time | City, mph | Highway, mph |
| 110v | 0-99% | 8h | 15.1 | 7.0 |
| J1772 | 0-99% | 3.5h | 34.2 | 15.8 |
Zero S ZF11.4, 137 miles city / 70 miles highway
| Charge Type | SOC | Time | City, mph | Highway, mph |
| 110v | 0-95% | 7.4h | 17.6 | 9.0 |
| 110v | 0-100% | 7.9h | 17.3 | 8.9 |
| J1772 | 0-95% | 4.1h | 31.7 | 16.2 |
| J1772 | 0-100% | 4.6h | 29.8 | 15.2 |
| CHAdeMO | 0-95% | 1.0h | 130 | 66.5 |
Zero's wording for the quick-charge accessory seems to indicate that it can be charged on a separate 110v circuit. I'm curious whether this is true when the J1772 accessory is connected.. suspect it probably can. If all you have is a pair of 110v outlets, the Zero will charge much more quickly than the Empulse.
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From the price of stand alone chargers, Zero's pricing seems to be in line.
The CHAdeMO probably has active bits to deal with the CAN traffic (if not part of the bike's electronics) which may also explain some of the cost.
I see improved charge rates for J1172. Given that J1772 L2 is simply 240V, does that mean that the 2013 on board charger is 1.4KW @ 110V and 2.8KW @ 240V?
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No, see update to the post. The Zero has only a 1.3 kW onboard charger.
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Brammo Empulse R, 121 miles city / 56 miles highway
| Charge Type | SOC | Time | City, mph | Highway, mph |
| 110v | 0-99% | 8h | 15.1 | 7.0 |
| J1772 | 0-99% | 3.5h | 34.2 | 15.8 |
Note that the manual that comes with the Empulse says 7 hours on 110v and that is in line with my observations (I've never done a full 0% charge, but the status display quoted - and the actual charge took - under 6.5 hours from single digits).
I seem to recall also that the amperage on a Level 2 charger was over 20 amps (compared to 12 amps on a 110v), but I didn't write the figure down. Next time I'm plugged in to Level 2 I'll record the amps and also do a time check to see if the 3.5h is accurate. Given that it was drawing more amps at a higher voltage, I would expect it would take less than the 3.5 quoted for a full charge, but perhaps there are other factors I'm not considering...
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flar: could you record the SOC % at two different times and calculate the charge rate that way? On both J1772 and 110v?
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flar: could you record the SOC % at two different times and calculate the charge rate that way? On both J1772 and 110v?
I got some 110v numbers today while charging at work. The bike went from 34% to 68% in 2.5 hours.
Later tonight I plan to plug into J1772 level 2 public charger, but I may not be able to get back to the bike before it hits 100% and I'm not sure how accurate the text messages they send when the bike cuts off will be.
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I think that from what i have read recently ;) Zero 2013 have integrated charger made of 4x 320Watts Meanwell HLG-320H Led power supply with adjustable current and voltage limit. i think its 2s2p ( 2 parallel time 2 connected in serie) These accept from 100Vac to 305V ac.
http://www.meanwell.com/search/hlg-320h/default.htm (ftp://www.meanwell.com/search/hlg-320h/default.htm)
DOc
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I think that from what i have read recently ;) Zero 2013 have integrated charger made of 4x 320Watts
So then the FX that I'm waiting for would have two of those chargers for the spec 640 watts - right?
Trikester
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I think that from what i have read recently ;) Zero 2013 have integrated charger made of 4x 320Watts
So then the FX that I'm waiting for would have two of those chargers for the spec 640 watts - right?
Trikester
I guess.. the 1300W they re talking abou is matching the 4 x 320W = 1280W so if the FX battery is samller i guess it's only 2 of these 320W psu connected in serie ( 2s). The bigger battery probably have 2s2p
Doc
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Yep. They should be 2s1p (XU/FX) and 2s2p (S/DS). Really a shame they didn't fit a 2s2p charger to the FX/MX - or at least make it an option.
Flar: 2.5 hours points to a 7.4 hour charge rate (2.5h/.34). Typically the last 5-10% will take 0.5-1.0 hours to charge up anyhow.. but if you're charging in a hurry the bulk charge rate is what's important. So 8 hours to full charge is probably about right.
For bulk charge on 110V then the Empulse should charge at 16.5 city miles/hour or 7.6 highway miles/hour.
My 2012 Zero S charges IME at 1.5 bars/hour, which can represent anywhere from 5 to 15 miles per hour.
Would be curious to get similar numbers for the 2013 Zeros. The smartphone app should report SOC %.
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If I buy an external charger from Zero for my FX, so I can charge batteries off the bike (motel room, etc.) am I going to have to handle two separate chargers? Or does Zero repackage two series connected chargers into one case?
Trikester
BTW - Almost makes me wish I still had my switchmode DC power supply company. We would probably be manufacturing EV chargers by now. As it was we were making big SLA chargers and charge controllers for the telecom industry. Well, actually I'm glad I'm retired and can afford to buy a charger, and have the time to ride. :D
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I don't know if it's possible to remove the onboard charger. I suspect it's a non-trivial task, but you probably have the right skillset for it : )
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As I suspected, I wasn't able to get back to the bike before it got to 100% on the level 2 charger, but when I plugged it in at 64% it was reading 24 amps charging.
The level 2 charge rate is listed as twice the level 1 charge rate, but if it is taking double the amps at 240v, then shouldn't it charge at 4x the rate of the 120v/12A charger? Or am I reading it wrong? Or is the J1772 port able to tell the chargepoint charger to feed it 120v instead of 240v? Or do they step the 240v down to 120v internally? Ummm?
I have been plugging into Chargepoint dual L1/L2 chargers as seen towards the bottom of this page (http://chargepoint.com/products-chargepoint-stations.php). They do list 120v/16A, but I believe that is through their Nema 5-20 outlet and I've been using their J1772 plug which I'm guessing is the one spec'd at 208-240v/30A.
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In theory J1772 can supply 120V AC but it typically supplies 240V AC.
Was the 24A supply-rate battery-side (DC) or wall-side (AC)?
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Was the 24A supply-rate battery-side (DC) or wall-side (AC)?
It was dash-side. ;)
Not sure what it is reporting on the dash, but that's what it said. The 12A matches what the included 110v wall charger supplies, but given that the battery pack voltage is listed as 103.6V then the two measurements would be very close so maybe it is a battery DC measurement...
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Probably battery-side then.
90 Ah / 24A = ~3.8 hours bulk charge rate.
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Hi flar,
sorry its off the topic but you are the first I realized riding a Brammo Empulse R :)
Would you like to write about your experience in the Brammo thread?
I still waiting that there is more "life" in this thread. I am not sure if they will make it to Europe in the next time, but it is always good to hear of real-live experience.