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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Булгаков on August 13, 2017, 04:37:34 AM
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So I'm stuck on the side of the road in the heat, with a battery that I can't charge due to thermal interlock. (I hope there's no other problem).
I rode 40 miles, then charged, then 40 miles, and charged, then I rode 57 miles, and now I cannot charge. It's saying 127deg F, and the dash shows no battery status, just like when the BMS died before. With they key on I get BMS LED 1&4 blinking, with key off, only led 4 blinking. The dash showed 17% remaining before I parked.
All charging at 6.6kW, all driving 55-60mph .
What speed are others able to consistently drive on road trips?
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My road trip speeds are pretty variable (35-70mph) but tend to have longer breaks (group rides do that).
Unfortunately you'll need to wait until the battery temperature gets to ~122F (50C) before you can charge again. Then you'll need to monitor the battery temperature when charging to make sure it's not being pushed up (it should stay about the same or drop very slowly when charging at 6kW). You'll need to take it easier on the throttle for the rest of the trip (high current is what heats the battery, so hard acceleration is the primary heat generator, and then consistent higher draw - like freeway running).
What's the ambient temperature there?
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Currently it is 38c/100f - typical southern US summer.
Yes, I think if I can get it to enable charging I might try even charging at only 3.3kW just to hope I don't get stuck again.
I thought I was driving lightly but I guess the battery disagreed with me.
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I would pour water on it...
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There's not much to recommend traveling at high temperatures. The Zero doesn't have a high-powered cooling system built in or much room for one.
- 55mph seems to be the best speed for dissipating battery heat, combining a reasonable amount of air flow and a relatively low drag.
- Charging builds up heat if it's above 4kW; so reducing your charge rate to 4kW should alleviate some of the charging-related heating.
Traveling at 55mph and charging at 4kW, though, will limit your daily travel to maybe 300 miles per day, though. You can travel more quickly in the early morning and in the evening but that risks wildlife and car encounters. On the other hand, longer charge times might allow you to get some real naps in.
I should say that 4kW with the SCv2 is achievable by disconnecting one unit from a 2-unit installation, but reconnecting that unit when the battery can handle it should be done while the bike is de-energized.
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Also charging to 90% generates less heat than charging to 100%. Internal resistance increases.
If you monitor battery temp and it approaches 50C/122F, it's better to ride at 55-60 mph to cool the battery, it cools fastest when there's airflow.
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Yes repeated cycles of highway riding and fast charging can eventually overheat the battery. A few things that can help:
1) If traveling in summer, try to ride at night when its cooler and the sun isn't shining on the black battery case or the black asphalt below which radiates up into the battery
2) don't use the onboard charger, its placement is terrible and much of the heat goes right into the battery
3) riding slower helps in 3 ways -
a) lowering the discharge rate and hence the heat produced
b) giving you more time to dissipate the heat for the same distance travelled
c) giving you a more efficient watt hours per mile, so your total trip requires less charge/discharge cycles
4) Upgrading to a newer model Zero helps in 2 major ways
a) increasing the total battery capacity of the bike means the C rate of discharge and discharge is less for the same speed of travel and charging
b) with the exception of the 2015 battery increase in size, each battery improvement has also gained a more efficient design that has less internal resistance, meaning less heating for the same power output
So combining those two and a 2017 13.0 will have much less heating than perhaps a 2014 11.4 for example. For most people it's not an issue, but for those who are traveling and supercharging, transferring the supercharger to a newer model year bike will be the most significant thing you can do to reduce battery heat if you can't modify your riding speed any more.
5) Adding an aerodynamic fairing - this will be the same thing as riding 40 mph instead of 70 mph according to what your battery sees. All it knows is that its now only having to deliver 7500 watts instead of 15000, meaning 2 things. You get to go twice as far with half the C rate of heating. However a fairing might prevent some of the air cooling effect, the benefits will far outweigh that
6) And as Tony mentioned above setting battery limits also help. Charging to about 80% and discharging to 20% can really help prevent battery heating. If you need to charge higher than 80% slow the charge rate down the higher you go. And if discharging below 20% ride slower and slower. Riding hard the last 20% will really heat the battery fast.
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Thanks, Terry.
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I'll add Terry's experienced recommendations to the wiki!
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For the record, I was not joking about the water. it WILL cool off the battery case, and therefore the battery much faster. the motor too...
just set the hose to mist, or even a spray bottle works great... but a waterbottle will work in a pinch.
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I tried to make a table out of this:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Hot_Weather (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Hot_Weather)
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For the record, I was not joking about the water...
Battery Cozy becomes swamp cooler? Fabric means more surface area, means more evaporation. Add a fan for more effectiveness if it's dry.
We should make an effort to update PlugShare and other charging reporting sites/apps to include availability of water in the description or the amenities section, both for human consumption and battery cooling. Especially refrigerated water.
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Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, here it seems that this just a plain limitation for me.
Outside of a large city, most charging stations are more than 50 miles apart, and often are daytime only (businesses, dealerships, RV parks) so nighttime riding is not as much of an option, nor is just riding from 80% to 20%, and even 55mph is sometimes dangerously slow on these roads.
104-108F / 40C temperatures really limit the EV options here. I wonder if Zero will follow the example of the Nissan Leaf and improve battery cooling for southern US heat?
I think perhaps I will only be able to take road trips in winter?
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Also, I wanted to add that even when the temperature had reduced to 118/120F, charging at 3.3kw eventually raised it again until thermal interlock again.
Perhaps at 100-104F ambient temperature, thermal equilibrium is lower than .4C ?
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Also, I wanted to add that even when the temperature had reduced to 118/120F, charging at 3.3kw eventually raised it again until thermal interlock again.
Perhaps at 100-104F ambient temperature, thermal equilibrium is lower than .4C ?
I guess in that case, you used your onboard in addition to the 3.3kw-charger-modul?
We saw less raising temp when we didnt use the onboard while fast charging (7,2 kW) like Terry already wrote.
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Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, here it seems that this just a plain limitation for me.
Outside of a large city, most charging stations are more than 50 miles apart, and often are daytime only (businesses, dealerships, RV parks) so nighttime riding is not as much of an option, nor is just riding from 80% to 20%, and even 55mph is sometimes dangerously slow on these roads.
104-108F / 40C temperatures really limit the EV options here. I wonder if Zero will follow the example of the Nissan Leaf and improve battery cooling for southern US heat?
I think perhaps I will only be able to take road trips in winter?
Yes, that is a difficult set of limitations right now. I wish I could just point out a nice sport touring fairing that you could put on the bike for better range or lower power draw, but the market's not there yet.
I'm really curious whether some cooling fins could be effectively attached to the front sides of the battery case. However they'd be attached would have to be very thermally conductive or a direct mount to conduct heat properly.
I'll also echo Cama's clarifying question whether the 3.3kW charge figure was using the onboard charger as well.
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Limitng yourself to 50 miles per leg isn't really necessary.
Just monitor and manage battery heat, don't do too much back to back rapid riding and rapid charging. Indeed slower riding cools the battery *and* gives you more range. Take your time, give the battery a chance to cool, take the nonfreeway routes.
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Yes, to clarify, I was using the OEM charger as well, in order to keep the contractor enabled.
Besides trying to find non-highway roads between towns to go slowly on, I really wonder whether cooling fins of some sort could be added. I believe (2014) battery cases has air gaps around the battery so probably not very effective.
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Yes, to clarify, I was using the OEM charger as well, in order to keep the contractor enabled.
Besides trying to find non-highway roads between towns to go slowly on, I really wonder whether cooling fins of some sort could be added. I believe (2014) battery cases has air gaps around the battery so probably not very effective.
Yes precisely, the battery case we see is actually a sheet aluminum box around what used to be 4 cell boxes and now is 2 longbricks. So even cooling the case we can see and touch takes a long time because the heat from the battery has to go through an air gap. Right now the best thing is to not ride fast the first few legs of the day and keep battery heating to a minimum. You can charge to 100% just charge a lot slower at the top, and you can also ride down to 10% or lower, just really try to ride slower at the end.
And best not to use the onboard charger at all on hot days and save the battery heating from the very beginning.
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Yeah, prevent getting into the vicious cycle
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My battery was cooking, over 180F when I finally got home, on my fourth leg. It was hot to the touch. Understanding that the aluminum box isn’t directly touching many cells, I’m going to try to put a heat sink on the front and sides and try again on the next hot day and see if they make a difference.
The plastic around the battery is just for looks, right? I can stick much larger sinks on if I remove it...
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Peltier plate could freeze the batery case very fast ;)
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I was just looking at those on Amazon. Unfortunately, just after I purchased two large heat sinks and some double sided thermal tape.
Ideas on how to keep the heat sinks from falling off? Apparently, 3M VHB, doesn’t like high temps.
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30F this morning, I wish my batteries would heat up while riding. I think they just get colder and slower.
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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You need a Battery Cozy.
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You need a Battery Cozy.
I don't suppose Aerostitch ever marketed the heated one they made. I thought about trying one or two 12v stick on battery warmers. Has anyone gone there?
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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You need a Battery Cozy.
I don't suppose Aerostitch ever marketed the heated one they made. I thought about trying one or two 12v stick on battery warmers. Has anyone gone there?
Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
I'm not a Battery Cozy person myself, but BTR and mrwilsn have worked on them, IIRC.
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Oop- should start a new thread to discuss battery too cold issues- this is the battery too hot thread!
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Well, I've done it again. Rode the bike a lot, and now I've been stuck on the side of the road again, in front of a charging station in the middle of nowhere for a couple hours. It was staying at a steady 117F for quite a while.
The bms won't report battery temperature or state of charge, and the contractor won't click on.
I reset the bms a couple of times, which may or may not have been a mistake, but there's nothing else I can do.
Last time this happened the contactor would enable, and I could see the battery temperature, but as soon as I tried to charge it would disconnect. Now I don't even get that.
Any ideas? should I start worrying that I fried the bms and need to get a tow truck?
update: 3+ hours later, it started working again, and the contactor started enabling and accepting a charge even though the BMS still shows 0%, my voltmeter has increased from 94v to 104v. Hopefully eventually it will figure itself out as well.
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Well, I've done it again. Rode the bike a lot, and now I've been stuck on the side of the road again, in front of a charging station in the middle of nowhere for a couple hours. It was staying at a steady 117F for quite a while.
The bms won't report battery temperature or state of charge, and the contractor won't click on.
I reset the bms a couple of times, which may or may not have been a mistake, but there's nothing else I can do.
Last time this happened the contactor would enable, and I could see the battery temperature, but as soon as I tried to charge it would disconnect. Now I don't even get that.
Any ideas? should I start worrying that I fried the bms and need to get a tow truck?
Hmmm been ridning 600+ miles today, mainly at about 50-55mph at 25-28deg C ambient and charging at 7-8 kw i’ve had no problems, but at the end of the trip the batt temp was somewhere in the 4ties.
I’ll consider that next time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yeah, here the day has reached 100F / 38C for much of the day. And with high humidity it stays warm at night too. I guess the battery just can't radiate heat quickly enough. My riding today was all between 50-60mph, but mostly 50/55.
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Perhaps you can increase the heat dissipation while charging? A good airflow on both sides of the battery(perhaps combined with some heatsinks) can waft away a lot of heat.
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dumping a cup of water on it occasionally might help.
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A mist from a spraybottle might be better, all the little drops stick on the battery. On the other hand spraybottles don't belong near motorcycles that are charging at high wattage.
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Last weekend I rode 50mi and charged 6.6kw. It was 94 degrees when I arrived. Charged fine. Rode another 50 mi, in the 40-50mph range. Arrive at hotel, it was still 94 degrees. Bike would not charge at 6.6 or with onboard. I did notice battery temp reading in the 150's for a short time while I was riding, but I never got a warning on the dash. I think ibattery was 130 when I tried. I waited several hours and tried again, no luck. I thought it may be the hotels charger, but now I'm thinking it was battery temp. What is the max temp one should initiate a charge?
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Last weekend I rode 50mi and charged 6.6kw. It was 94 degrees when I arrived. Charged fine. Rode another 50 mi, in the 40-50mph range. Arrive at hotel, it was still 94 degrees. Bike would not charge at 6.6 or with onboard. I did notice battery temp reading in the 150's for a short time while I was riding, but I never got a warning on the dash. I think ibattery was 130 when I tried. I waited several hours and tried again, no luck. I thought it may be the hotels charger, but now I'm thinking it was battery temp. What is the max temp one should initiate a charge?
Battery temperature is your problem -- At either 120 or 122F the bike will stop allowing the charge to happen.
It also appears to me that sometimes if I try to charge bike, and temperature rises above 122F and the contactor opens, that the bike then will not allow charging to start again until temperature is much lower than 122F -- sometimes 108F or 110F. But if I stop the charging before it reaches that limit, like at 118F, and let it cool down, then I can resume charging at a lower rate and not spend several hours waiting for it to cool down as long.
South USA in summer is hard for road trips on the Zero. Not many roads between cities where driving at 50MPH (or slower) is possible or safe.
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I thought it was the temp but doesnt make sense 3 hrs later it wouldn't charge.
Last weekend I rode 50mi and charged 6.6kw. It was 94 degrees when I arrived. Charged fine. Rode another 50 mi, in the 40-50mph range. Arrive at hotel, it was still 94 degrees. Bike would not charge at 6.6 or with onboard. I did notice battery temp reading in the 150's for a short time while I was riding, but I never got a warning on the dash. I think ibattery was 130 when I tried. I waited several hours and tried again, no luck. I thought it may be the hotels charger, but now I'm thinking it was battery temp. What is the max temp one should initiate a charge?
Battery temperature is your problem -- At either 120 or 122F the bike will stop allowing the charge to happen.
It also appears to me that sometimes if I try to charge bike, and temperature rises above 122F and the contactor opens, that the bike then will not allow charging to start again until temperature is much lower than 122F -- sometimes 108F or 110F. But if I stop the charging before it reaches that limit, like at 118F, and let it cool down, then I can resume charging at a lower rate and not spend several hours waiting for it to cool down as long.
South USA in summer is hard for road trips on the Zero. Not many roads between cities where driving at 50MPH (or slower) is possible or safe.
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Didn't you say that the battery was 130F when you tried to charge?
That is above the limit for charging, whether it is 3 hrs later or not. What temperature was the battery when you tried to charge again?
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I had my Zero outside charging and when I came out to check it, it had stopped charging because of the temperature interlock. Not even riding it. It was charged enough for me to get to work but I can’t charge it now because the battery is too hot.
I’m using the onboard charger but have a diginow on order. Will this help mitigate the hot charging issue while it is parked outside?
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Charging faster will heat up your battery more. Have never noticed it with my SR but have with my Eva using DCFC.
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I basically use the on-board charger only if I want to fully 100% charge bike and leave it plugged in for cells to re-balance.
Otherwise, I use either one of my frame-mounted QuiQ chargers if slow charging at 110V 15A residential outlet, or QuiQ chargers + evtricity quick chargers if I am fast charging. Fast charging heats up the battery enough without also having the heat from the OEM charger right below battery flowing upwards into battery.
Actually, if I want to charge at a full 9.9kW I use the on-board as well as other chargers, but that is rare now.
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You need a Battery Cozy.
Ok, what’s a Battery Cozy? When I googled it, I saw some kids riding toys and shoe insoles.
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Brian T Rice's neoprene project. He's talked about it here and on ZMOG
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Believe it or not, I've had battery overheating issues with my 2014DS recently here in the UK. I have a 30 mile commute with the first 20 miles on fast roads followed by 10 miles of mixed but mostly slow riding in London. I arrive at work with the battery cooking nicely around 40-45C and plug it in to charge. After 8 hours I come back and the temp has only dropped to about 35C. By the time I get home it's up to around 47C and then drops to about 26C overnight.
One evening I plugged it in to charge and it wouldn't. Fortunately it was fully charged for my ride to work in the morning. I'm noticing a significant power drop when the battery approaches 40C. I've had the bike two and a half years, covered 25,000 miles and this is the first time I've had issues with the battery overheating. In fact the power reduction is so severe that the motor stops overheating and the amber light stops flashing. My speed gets limited to 70mph and sometimes below.
If anyone at Zero is reading this, you need to implement active battery cooling as a priority. There's no point in people spending thousands of pounds on (still slow but faster) charging solutions only to find they can't ride fast for long distances and charge without having the power hobbled. My supposed 50+ horsepower bike turns into the equivalent of a 125cc learner bike at best after only a few miles on the motorway!
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Believe it or not, I've had battery overheating issues with my 2014DS recently here in the UK. I have a 30 mile commute with the first 20 miles on fast roads followed by 10 miles of mixed but mostly slow riding in London. I arrive at work with the battery cooking nicely around 40-45C and plug it in to charge. After 8 hours I come back and the temp has only dropped to about 35C. By the time I get home it's up to around 47C and then drops to about 26C overnight.
One evening I plugged it in to charge and it wouldn't. Fortunately it was fully charged for my ride to work in the morning. I'm noticing a significant power drop when the battery approaches 40C. I've had the bike two and a half years, covered 25,000 miles and this is the first time I've had issues with the battery overheating. In fact the power reduction is so severe that the motor stops overheating and the amber light stops flashing. My speed gets limited to 70mph and sometimes below.
If anyone at Zero is reading this, you need to implement active battery cooling as a priority. There's no point in people spending thousands of pounds on (still slow but faster) charging solutions only to find they can't ride fast for long distances and charge without having the power hobbled. My supposed 50+ horsepower bike turns into the equivalent of a 125cc learner bike at best after only a few miles on the motorway!
I wonder if the temperature sensor is failing? That sort of change, when there were no problems in the past, doesn't seem right. ???
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Believe it or not, I've had battery overheating issues with my 2014DS recently here in the UK. I have a 30 mile commute with the first 20 miles on fast roads followed by 10 miles of mixed but mostly slow riding in London. I arrive at work with the battery cooking nicely around 40-45C and plug it in to charge. After 8 hours I come back and the temp has only dropped to about 35C. By the time I get home it's up to around 47C and then drops to about 26C overnight.
One evening I plugged it in to charge and it wouldn't. Fortunately it was fully charged for my ride to work in the morning. I'm noticing a significant power drop when the battery approaches 40C. I've had the bike two and a half years, covered 25,000 miles and this is the first time I've had issues with the battery overheating. In fact the power reduction is so severe that the motor stops overheating and the amber light stops flashing. My speed gets limited to 70mph and sometimes below.
If anyone at Zero is reading this, you need to implement active battery cooling as a priority. There's no point in people spending thousands of pounds on (still slow but faster) charging solutions only to find they can't ride fast for long distances and charge without having the power hobbled. My supposed 50+ horsepower bike turns into the equivalent of a 125cc learner bike at best after only a few miles on the motorway!
I wonder if the temperature sensor is failing? That sort of change, when there were no problems in the past, doesn't seem right. ???
My bike has just been given a firmware update as a first step in the troubleshooting process. I'll have to see if it helps.
Part of me is wondering if I've just got so used to the bike now that I'm riding it harder than ever before.
I've used this latest experience to justify buying a petrol bike. On the grounds of safety, of course... ;-) My Zero is being put out to pasture while I run in the new bike.
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I'll throw in my experiences with my 2018 ZF7.2. I only use the onboard charger, but this summer when I've ridden it down to 0%, when charging it gets to 60-62% and then overheats and stops charging. I need to wait a few hours before charging again.
The most recent time, I got a small USB-powered fan (intended for computer use) and found it fit neatly on the fairing, pointed away from the battery to draw away heat. After a few minutes of this, the battery got noticeably cooler to the touch and I was able to resume charging much sooner.
I powered the fan off of a USB power bank that I keep around for my phone on long rides. It all fits nicely into the tank storage area.
If I had regular issues with fast charging like described, I would think two USB fans, one pushing and one pulling, powered by a USB battery in the tank area, would be a really cheap and easy fix. Don't have to mount them (could, though), just sit them on the fairing while you're charging.
This is the fan I use, which fits nicely on the fairing: https://smile.amazon.com/Thermaltake-External-One-touch-Retractable-AF0007/dp/B002OJN250/
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What is the ambient temperature when it overheats and stops charging? My 2016 6.5 has never stopped charging even if the garage was 100 degrees (to my knowledge, that is, since I generally plug it in overnight).
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About the riding fast on highway.
In my experience it's not battery temp but the motor temp wich is cause of power cutt-off.
At 100°C warning, at 117°C power reduction.
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About the riding fast on highway.
In my experience it's not battery temp but the motor temp wich is cause of power cutt-off.
At 100°C warning, at 117°C power reduction.
That was my experience until recently.
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At 100°C warning, at 117°C power reduction.
Confusing Fahrenheit for Celsius?
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About the riding fast on highway.
In my experience it's not battery temp but the motor temp wich is cause of power cutt-off.
At 100°C warning, at 117°C power reduction.
The motor power reduction is because the motor becomes too hot (which would fry the magnets), this is the result of the fact that an electric motor has a continuous and a peak power. Only continuous power can be sustained without the motor starting to overheat. So the Zero reduces the motor current in order to not destroy the motor.
The battery temperature is something entirely different. For maximum power, you want it to be as hot as possible and for maximum lifetime you want it somewhere around 20°C. With powerful riding or charging with a lot of power the battery starts to heat up because of the internal resistance of the cells. At 50°C the BMS will open the contactor in case of charging, at 60°C it will also open to prevent you from driving.
Low SOCs do also cause a power reduction in order to prevent the pack voltage from sagging too low.
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What is the ambient temperature when it overheats and stops charging? My 2016 6.5 has never stopped charging even if the garage was 100 degrees (to my knowledge, that is, since I generally plug it in overnight).
I understood it to be 122F. The last/only time this happened when I checked the battery temp, it was at 124F.
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Soooooooooooooo. Supposing we forget Mostlybonkers's other well documented problematic issues with his once new 2014 Zero DSP bike and overheating motors, Zero's claimed battery longevity in miles then and now nevertheless looks amazing based on their own stat's even for the DSP 2014 owned the O.P.
However we now have at least one data point suggesting that if you try to attain the stated battery milage in a "New" DSP sold with zero miles driven and AFAIK rarely ever ridden with the additional weight of an extra pillion passenger, the big battery Zero DSP nevertheless suffers from unexpected and premature battery over heating (caused by battery internal resistance build up) such that by 2018 that it is problematic for the original intended commuter purpose. Hmmm!!!
And that is after being used as recommended for the purpose as a commuter bike and in a relatively cold climate after only a fraction of the stated Zero attainable battery mileage has been acheived and by a guy that is mostly sensible IMHO ;).
So who, if anyone, is on target to make the Zero claimed battery milage and how many miles have you acheived so far on your post 2013 Zero bike please?
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I still have a long way to go before I reach Zero's estimated battery life of 455,000 miles for my model Zero. If only I could live that long. ::)
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The firmware update has been done and I've got my bike back. I really need to ride it, which I haven't had a proper opportunity to do yet, and report back. Aside from trying to determine whether or not the battery is heating quicker than before, I'm also curious to see what the range is like now.
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After the firmware update I'm getting some very odd behaviour with the SoC. It drops very quickly, even going down to 0% this morning on the motorway. It recovered after I left the motorway and I arrived at work with 29% SoC. Can't rely on it now at all. I was going steady and my speed was limited to 60mph at one point when the SoC was at 0%. All very odd and I've got a support ticket open with Zero.
My best guess is that there is a severe voltage sag under load. Probably a bad cell that's not holding charge and causing issues with the other cells it is in series with. If the BMS is clever enough to detect an issue with a series of cells and take it them out of commission, that would put more load on the rest of the cells in the battery and could explain the extra heat being generated. Otherwise, perhaps all the cells are suffering from age and pack resistance as a whole has gone up. All pure speculation and just throwing ideas out there really.
One good thing about the firmware update is that I can now extract the battery logs using the app, which I couldn't do before.
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After the firmware update I'm getting some very odd behaviour with the SoC. It drops very quickly, even going down to 0% this morning on the motorway. It recovered after I left the motorway and I arrived at work with 29% SoC. Can't rely on it now at all. I was going steady and my speed was limited to 60mph at one point when the SoC was at 0%. All very odd and I've got a support ticket open with Zero....
Sounds familiar with the behavior of SoC on my '16 DSR since a few recent firmware revisions. Previously I could update the firmware and SoC would be predictable. What I've noticed about the new behavior is that after a reset (firmware upgrade / commissioning / poke BMS buttons) the SoC is invalid on any ride at the point where the battery is being discharged more than it previously has since the reset. On a longer ride when this happens if there is no load for a few moments the SoC climbs rapidly in its invalid state. At that condition the SoC can only go up, not down, while riding. Turning the bike off and letting it rest a moment, I turn the bike on and the SoC at its incorrectly large value will drop 1-2% per second on the display as the seconds on a clock and within a matter of minutes to the "correct" value. After a full charging cycle it may behave again so long as I am going on a ride using less and not more of the capacity of the battery than it has been ridden previously, and I do not partially charge the bike along the route.
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As many have advised on this forum, if you're happy with the way your bike is performing then don't do any firmware updates, which is the advice I've followed thus far with my 2017 DSR.
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My daughter is riding my old 2014 S with PT. The last time its firmware was updated was when it was delivered in January 2014. The motor has never been "commissioned". It still runs great and the SOC display seems to work accurately. It just takes about a week to get past 92% to 100% on the original charger. ???
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I was forced into a firmware upgrade as a troubleshooting step for my battery issues. I can understand the rationale and it did fix the issue with extracting the battery logs via the Zero app. However, the behaviour of the latest firmware is just bonkers! I can't believe that there was any kind of quality control around that release. On my way home tonight I was presented with 0% SoC and 21 miles estimated range. I rode many miles at 0% SoC. I may start a new topic entitled Lies, Damn Lies and User Interfaces! There's a big divide between the information going to the rider and what the hardware feels the battery is capable of.
I'm losing faith Zero, please take note! Oh and stop your soft Californian developers from smoking weed on the job...
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My daughter is riding my old 2014 S with PT. The last time its firmware was updated was when it was delivered in January 2014. The motor has never been "commissioned". It still runs great and the SOC display seems to work accurately. It just takes about a week to get past 92% to 100% on the original charger. ???
Motor commissioning became a critical maintenance item with the introduction of IPM motors (2016+). The service schedule is at the first 600 miles, then every 8000 miles thereafter. Most Zero Motorcycle owners I've met with 2016+ model year bikes have not yet topped 12,000 miles. My 2016 DSR is about 36,000 miles and I guess about three service intervals into the new motor because the old motor blew up and tried to kill me.
I was forced into a firmware upgrade as a troubleshooting step for my battery issues. I can understand the rationale and it did fix the issue with extracting the battery logs via the Zero app. However, the behaviour of the latest firmware is just bonkers! I can't believe that there was any kind of quality control around that release. On my way home tonight I was presented with 0% SoC and 21 miles estimated range. I rode many miles at 0% SoC. I may start a new topic entitled Lies, Damn Lies and User Interfaces! There's a big divide between the information going to the rider and what the hardware feels the battery is capable of. ...
If someone knows the true nature of why this is happening they are not talking about it. I'd bet there's an off-by-one error introduced in the code from changing programming language and/or an unexpected change in the compiled output from the development toolchain. Possibly there could be some way to encourage Zero Motorcycles by either lawsuit and/or keep your bike in the shop until this issue gets fixed, until it has been in the shop for so long (because I assume this will not get fixed) that you can invoke a lemon law and get an offer for a buy-back or replacement bike. Wash, rinse, repeat. Otherwise there's no incentive for a firmware fix and literally not anything we can do to help with a resolution. The programming code being secret leads to these kinds of problems that only money (and not intelligence) can resolve.
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Ahh, I didn't know the motor calibration was to do with the IPM motors. Thanks Shadow.
I'd love to understand why it becomes a critical item for servicing. The whole point is to get away from servicing and the crazy prices that stealerships charge for workshop time. It's far too similar to the requirement to check valve clearances in an ICE bike for my liking. They never go out, but it's a major inconvenience and expense to get them checked. In fact, the process of checking them is more likely to throw them out than anything else! Also, why does it need doing on bikes when the valves on cars don't need touching at all?
All off topic and I'm sure I could Google it all.
I'm mostly concerned about the battery health with my bike, rather than the poor state of the firmware at the moment. Aside from the overheating, I had strong evidence that the range had dropped significantly before the firmware update. The bike is now unusable as I have lost all faith that it won't leave me stranded. There's something seriously wrong with the battery pack and it needs investigating thoroughly.
Unfortunately the tech in the Netherlands is on holiday this week so I may not get a response from Zero until well into next week. I just hope that this is an isolated issue with my bike, rather than an issue with all 2014 battery packs.
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Ahh, I didn't know the motor calibration was to do with the IPM motors. Thanks Shadow.
I'd love to understand why it becomes a critical item for servicing. The whole point is to get away from servicing and the crazy prices that stealerships charge for workshop time. It's far too similar to the requirement to check valve clearances in an ICE bike for my liking. They never go out, but it's a major inconvenience and expense to get them checked. In fact, the process of checking them is more likely to throw them out than anything else! Also, why does it need doing on bikes when the valves on cars don't need touching at all?
I hope nobody here cares much if I answer your off topic questions on ICEs.
There are many motorcycles that have self adjusting hydraulic lifters and need no valve adjustment. My Harley is such. Same with Honda Goldwings since 1985 (IIRC). Often cycle riders are looking for the best performance more so than less maintenance. If there were a high demand for less maintenance at the cost of performance, it would be a lot more common, IMO, on our ICE motorcycles.
I don't know where you get the misinformation about checking valves throws them out of adjustment. Unless you mean when tightening the cylinder head bolts it takes the valves clearances out of adjustment, as happens on my 1971 BMW, but that is part of the process that should be done before checking valve clearances anyway. It really means the cylinder head bolts needed tightening, and when they are tightened the valve clearances must be checked as that will change.
But most of today's ICE cycle engines use shims and buckets and checking the clearances on such is not going to change anything. And they usually don't change much on most bikes. I know of several people who have not checked the valve clearances from new to 75,000 miles and all were still in spec. (with Yamaha Ventures). But I had to do mine twice in around 80K miles. But were still very close to spec. I changed two shims, one size difference, in all those miles. So YMMV.
It's a mistake to think EVs require no maintenance, but they require a lot less than any ICE bike, AFAIK, and some ICE bikes today require little, such as my Triumph Trophy SE that goes 20,000 miles before anything really needs to be done, after the first oil change.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Thanks Don, much appreciated.
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This thread may be the one to ask if anyone has compiled a user degradation log of pouch cells in general, and Ferasis pouch cells as used in Zero bikes in particular, like the Tesla/Panasonic 18650B cell graph which curves upwards along the time axis and not downwards like Nissan Leaf pouch cells?
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This thread may be the one to ask if anyone has compiled a user degradation log of pouch cells in general, and Ferasis pouch cells as used in Zero bikes in particular, like the Tesla/Panasonic 18650B cell graph which curves upwards along the time axis and not downwards like Nissan Leaf pouch cells?
No, this is not a good thread for that. Please make a new topic.
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...I'm mostly concerned about the battery health with my bike, rather than the poor state of the firmware at the moment. Aside from the overheating, I had strong evidence that the range had dropped significantly before the firmware update. The bike is now unusable as I have lost all faith that it won't leave me stranded. There's something seriously wrong with the battery pack and it needs investigating thoroughly...
What I've witnessed is BMS per-cell data is available from the serial console output; a bit outside my expertise though. There's a few vendors selling cables to get into that function of the Zero diagnostic connector. It's not difficult or expensive but because of the seriousness what happens when someone might jackass and enter bad data, there's not been a fully spelled out tutorial yet (except Unofficial Zero Manual and some partial descriptions in various bike forums).
For this access you would firstly need to buy or build the physical cable and a computer with some (free) software to send and receive text with the bike computer. If you have that going then the easier task is getting a hint from people who are experienced navigating the bike computer menu. There are some non-public channels where that topic is explained better.
If your ZF pack is failed and Zero Motorcycles offers to replace it, consider to accept the offer and all should be good again. It's not uncommon that I've heard about a few 2014 bikes some ZF packs are better than others, and Zero Motorcycles was very reasonable with a trade-in or repair-replacement.