ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: ultrarnr on November 22, 2020, 07:04:15 AM
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Rideapart has an interesting article on Lightning Motorcycles.
https://www.rideapart.com/features/455680/what-happened-to-lightning-motorcycles/
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If they've only made a few bikes, why can't they fess up to it?
I wonder why it is that some of their stuff is so interesting and other parts half-assed.
-Crissa
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This is phenomenal.
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So the article got noticed by Richard and he invited Sabrina to come out to Lightning and see what they are building! I think it is safe to say not much at this point.
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Hope she's taken lessons in self defence.
Cas :)
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I posted about the glassdoor comments on the rideapart web site. Wonder if he checked out the web site! I think in the end Lightnings success has been crippled by Richard's lack of managerial skills. There are a lot of positive comments about face to face meetings and interactions but I think those who work for him see a very different Richard than the one customers may see.
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The open invitation to stop by on Friday afternoons and the part about the factory in China seems missing from the article.
A lot of this electric motorcycle stuff is for articles with paying ads.
Was kind of amusing the folks that essentially jump to the defense of Lightning for delivering bikes with smaller batteries that will be replaced and then it turns out the controler won't work with the larger higher voltage battery promised. How is that going, nothing in this article. Nothing to the effect more than the battery is sub spec to what was promised.
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How is that going, nothing in this article. Nothing to the effect more than the battery is sub spec to what was promised.
The article did mention the bikes had a smaller, crippled battery pack.
-Crissa
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Also no mention that Lightning lost their location and are now renting a small corner of Corbin's factory in Hollister.
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Also no mention that Lightning lost their location and are now renting a small corner of Corbin's factory in Hollister.
Now that is interesting. After moving into a big new modern building in San Jose and showing off photos of their factory in China, they are now hanging out in a corner of the Corbin factory? My how the mighty have fallen. ::)
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There was an update to the Rideapart article which I found VERY interesting!!!
Update: After looking closer at the Lightning Motorcycle Owners group we found (which might or might not be the one referred to by the commenter), we noticed that the group is run by CEO Richard Hatfield and that one of the buyers who confirmed having received their LS-218, Guido Seibt, is currently listed as "working at Lightning Motorcycles".
So it seems it takes an invitation from Hatfield to be apart of this exclusive Facebook group! Not going to allow riders who are interested in Lightning motorcycles to see what real owners are posting or to ask them questions about their bikes!
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It's ok the moles I have in there say there's literally nothing happening.
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If they've only made a few bikes, why can't they fess up to it?
I wonder why it is that some of their stuff is so interesting and other parts half-assed.
-Crissa
I've never had any direct-interaction with them, but from everything I've read (here, various facebook groups, journalist interviews, other wbe forums) it at least looks simple:
The owner/CEO doesn't really have the personality, skills or interest to run a business with retail customers.
While clearly he's interested in e-motorcycles, and has done a lot of development work on them, there's the problem of finding funding for it, whereas it's not a field with too much sponsorship money. Making production consumer e-motorcycles for retail, which are pretty expensive and sold only to the higher end market, requires full attention.
I've no idea what Hatfield's funding sources have been up to now, but it can't have been retail customers in any major way.
I've scoured the web multiple times, and it appears very unlikely the company has sold more than a mid-two-digit number of bikes ever since 2014, and that includes one-off projects to racers. Certainly no real consumer bikes at all (like the one thatwas reviewed in the videos here).
So the company's communications are severely lacking -- one of the missing skills -- and this going off on tangents (like enclosed bikes, a completely different market) long before the existing products have been sorted technically as prototypes, let alone productized, is typical of someone who's an inventor type, not an entrepreneur.
I've known plenty of both, working at a VC, and someone who's solely an inventor will never found a successful business, unless there's a closely-associated entrepreneur.
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Lightning strikes me as a company for a venture capitalist to wait around for to snatch up when it inevitably goes bankrupt.
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Lightning strikes me as a company for a venture capitalist to wait around for to snatch up when it inevitably goes bankrupt.
Why? What value would the company have? I doubt there's any significant inventory of working salable bikes, there's no customer base that's worth money, and any stocks of components would be small as they only build to order. The name doesn't have goodwill value at this point either.
Sometimes a company's worthwhile buying to keep an R&D team together, but the GlassDoor reports are pretty bleak about that.
I'm sure there's a lot of knowledge & experience that Hatfield and maybe a couple of others have, but for that you'd hire them, not buy the company.
Also, VCs don't make investments like that. Maybe you're thinking of private-equity funds? Completely different animal.
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Bump. Any news from Lightning these days?
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My last encounter with them was they are dipping their toes in the waters of CCS charging. I actually met with Hatfield and did a livestream at a DC station and recorded the bike getting some charge. During the video I cleared asking 2 questions ahead of time: 1.) Will you (Richard) explain how to read the BMS screen and 2.) What is the LVC for this battery pack?
He did go through line-by-line and explained the BMS screen. He then said the LVC (low voltage cutoff aka 0%) on the Strike Carbon Editions is 200vdc. The top end of the packs is ~300vdc or 4.15vdc per cell, 72S. This would put the bottom end of the pack at 2.78vdc.
Every other manufacturer tends to call 0% around 3.4vdc for comparison.
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Woah! Richard actually spoke to you without threatening to call the cops??
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...."And now fuck off, before I call the cops."
Cas :)
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Actually we all had lunch together afterwards. If you have access to the Lightning Facebook group the video is here (https://www.facebook.com/groups/415404339318408/permalink/888168805375290/)
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Impressive charge rate. Also clearly shows why it's best to unplug at 95% SOC as the station ramps down.
Glad to see everyone being nice and working toward a common goal. Nice job.
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Thanks for the video. Was able to view it without a Facebook account.
Those charge rates are pretty intense. Seems like it would damage the battery pack at such rates at high SOC.
Any news of Strike production or deliveries?
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Nope. Nothing. I am just reporting facts at this point instead of speculation.
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Impressive charge rate. Also clearly shows why it's best to unplug at 95% SOC as the station ramps down.
Except for cell balancing.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm happy to see Lightning apparently becoming more active lately. Hopefully they'll be an alternative in the future :)
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There are alternatives right now from Energica. They've been pushing the envelope of what an electric motorcycle can do based on their experience building bikes for MotoGP's E-series races, so you should be very skeptical of any company claiming to greatly exceed their capabilities.
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2022 news about Lightning, and I'm not even joking:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/generative-design-for-milling-lightweights-ev-motorbike-part
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2022 news about Lightning, and I'm not even joking:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/generative-design-for-milling-lightweights-ev-motorbike-part
Hmm, that's cool to be working with Autodesk on generative designs. On the other hand, it seems like a bit of a distraction. More-than-adequate swingarm designs were figured out 100 years ago. On the other hand, companies with expensive, high-end cool-factor products seem to win in the long run.
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2022 news about Lightning, and I'm not even joking:
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/generative-design-for-milling-lightweights-ev-motorbike-part
Hmm, that's cool to be working with Autodesk on generative designs. On the other hand, it seems like a bit of a distraction. More-than-adequate swingarm designs were figured out 100 years ago. On the other hand, companies with expensive, high-end cool-factor products seem to win in the long run.
Lightning doesn't have products; the term implies goods for retail sale. The LS-218 certainly wasn't a production motorcycle, and the "record" they claim for it relied on significant one-off modifications. One-off motorcycles for racing/prototypes don't count.
It's coming up on three years since the "launch" of the Strike, and still nada. I truly wonder where their money for ongoing operations comes from.
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wavelet, I have seen that brought up before in other threads and I don't think anyone really knows how Lightning stays in business or where they get their money from. Consulting was one idea that was brought up. And maybe funding Lightning is a tax right-off for some unknown company. Really hard to say.
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More news on Lightning! They are attempting another land speed record.
https://www.rideapart.com/news/565923/lightning-motorcycles-cbmm-niobium-tests/
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Yawn.
The third sentence in the "article"
The brand soon leveraged that success and the “fastest production motorcycle” claim to help market its LS-218 production model.
is already a total lie -- they had no success since only 2-4 LS-218s were ever sold, it was never a production motorcycle, and the record claim was a lie (enough changes were made for the speed run that it doesn't qualify).
And top-speed are a distraction, and have zero benefits for expanding the BEV bike market.
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I think it is partnerships like this (and the tilting trike project mentioned here) that help keep the lights on at Lightning. Heaven knows selling motorcycles isn't helping much.
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I think it is partnerships like this (and the tilting trike project mentioned here) that help keep the lights on at Lightning. Heaven knows selling motorcycles isn't helping much.
I can see consulting work funding a couple of people (there appears to be a consensus that Hatfield has a lot of experience & knowledge in BEV bike R&D), but not more, really. It's not like in cars where Rimac was able to generate lots of revenue from established carmakers helping them design electrics, or that established bike manufacturers spend money to speak of on electric racing either -- not enough expected electric bike revenue in the near-to-mid term to justify it.
A quick look at the various company-profile sites for Lightning yields contradicting info, but overall 20-25 employees, and $4M-$5M annual revenue; both seem too high for known sales or other sources of revenue, esp. after only $1-3M private angel funding total in two rounds since 2009. And in the NorCal Bay Area, not exactly a low-labor-cost location.
¯\_(?)_/¯
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I wonder whatever happened to Lightning's new factory? ;) Are they still getting it ready for the the Strike's big entry into the World's high performance electric motorcycle market? ;D
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Totally forgot they supposedly have a factory in China. According to this,
https://panjiva.com/Quzhou-Lightning-New-Energy-Technol/47914348 (https://panjiva.com/Quzhou-Lightning-New-Energy-Technol/47914348)
it's a parts supplier, not an assembly plant, and they haven't supplied that much stuff to Lightning US...
Some more details:
https://matchory.com/supplier/quzhou-lightning-new-energy (https://matchory.com/supplier/quzhou-lightning-new-energy)
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Yawn.
The third sentence in the "article"
The brand soon leveraged that success and the “fastest production motorcycle” claim to help market its LS-218 production model.
is already a total lie -- they had no success since only 2-4 LS-218s were ever sold, it was never a production motorcycle, and the record claim was a lie (enough changes were made for the speed run that it doesn't qualify).
And top-speed are a distraction, and have zero benefits for expanding the BEV bike market.
You say that but...
https://electrek.co/2022/03/01/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-targets-250-mph-land-speed-record-and-it-just-may-succeed/ (https://electrek.co/2022/03/01/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-targets-250-mph-land-speed-record-and-it-just-may-succeed/)
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Yawn.
The third sentence in the "article"
The brand soon leveraged that success and the “fastest production motorcycle” claim to help market its LS-218 production model.
is already a total lie -- they had no success since only 2-4 LS-218s were ever sold, it was never a production motorcycle, and the record claim was a lie (enough changes were made for the speed run that it doesn't qualify).
And top-speed are a distraction, and have zero benefits for expanding the BEV bike market.
You say that but...
https://electrek.co/2022/03/01/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-targets-250-mph-land-speed-record-and-it-just-may-succeed/ (https://electrek.co/2022/03/01/lightning-strike-electric-motorcycle-targets-250-mph-land-speed-record-and-it-just-may-succeed/)
The LS-218 wasn't a production motorcycle, so by definition they didn't have a speed record for a production motorcycle. Quite aside from the fact that the bodywork, gearing and some other stuff I forget was modified.
The Strike also isn't a production motorcycle, so the same applies to it.
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They entered a speed trial in the steam and electric semi streamliner class. I found the record book and posted it a few years ago.
Micah Toll must know this or similar if he reads the comments to these things.
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If you check it now you'll see the comments are locked.
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I haven't been following Lightning as closely as many of you probably have.
I remember the news about the Strike - incredible specs for the price.
Started googling and already at that time a lot of people complaining about having put down deposits for LS-218 and Strike... and then hearing nothing.
A CEO claiming that "We are already delivering" + and what seems to be not a single independent Youtuber showing off their LS or Strike? = Fake news!
There might be a Lightning someday, but if it's with the same CEO => Don't touch it.
It's not like the company went bankrupt and couldn't deliver or return deposits. They keep making records to lure in potential costumers. Records are impressive and cost some money but honestly not that hard... Production is hard!
Well this is just my opinion from whatever I have read and seen about this...
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I haven't been following Lightning as closely as many of you probably have.
I remember the news about the Strike - incredible specs for the price.
Started googling and already at that time a lot of people complaining about having put down deposits for LS-218 and Strike... and then hearing nothing.
A CEO claiming that "We are already delivering" + and what seems to be not a single independent Youtuber showing off their LS or Strike? = Fake news!
There might be a Lightning someday, but if it's with the same CEO => Don't touch it.
It's not like the company went bankrupt and couldn't deliver or return deposits. They keep making records to lure in potential costumers. Records are impressive and cost some money but honestly not that hard... Production is hard!
Well this is just my opinion from whatever I have read and seen about this...
Thing is, they don't even have real records of the type they're claiming. The so-called record for the LS-218 is for a production bike, when the LS-218 was never a production bike (only ~4 were ever produced), and the bike on the record run had non-standard one-off gearing, special bodywork and some other changes.
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Thing is, they don't even have real records of the type they're claiming. The so-called record for the LS-218 is for a production bike, when the LS-218 was never a production bike (only ~4 were ever produced), and the bike on the record run had non-standard one-off gearing, special bodywork and some other changes.
When I visited Lightning, they had a number of LS-218 bikes but seemed to be focused on building Strikes.
I originally wanted the LS-218 but after riding a Strike R I found it to be much more than I thought it would be.
I did see a number of LS-218's in a state of build, a factory mule with lots of recording instruments hooked to it, and a finished bike for display/test rides. Richard said he actually doesn't sell too many as they are very powerful and most people find it to be too much.
I also found it interesting that the employees who worked there that had bikes, all had the Strike models. I asked about the LS-218 and they all laughed and said they preferred the ergonomics of the Strike and the 218's just had so much power it seemed silly.
According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".
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According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".
It does not meet the definition of 'Production'.
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According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".
It does not meet the definition of 'Production'.
Where are you getting the definition of 'Production', and in what way does Lightning not meet this definition?
Would you consider Koenigsegg vehicles to be non-production?
As I watched them work, they appeared to be putting out bikes about once every two weeks. (My guess).
Is there a number you are looking for, or something else?
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It is a somewhat loose term, but I think it's fair to use the FIM's definition which means 125 units made on the initial visit with another 125 made within a year. https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/2023_FIM_Homologation_Regulations_For_Motorcycles_v1_27.01.2023_final.pdf?t=1680585786
If you look at the publicly posted financial statements from Lightning's investor page, it indicates they're selling between 4-8 bikes per year. https://netcapital.com/files/15128c6e-6501-4316-9a9e-3b5626a2b1dd/lightningmotorcycle_audit-report.pdf
And no two are identical.
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According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".
It does not meet the definition of 'Production'.
Where are you getting the definition of 'Production', and in what way does Lightning not meet this definition?
Would you consider Koenigsegg vehicles to be non-production?
As I watched them work, they appeared to be putting out bikes about once every two weeks. (My guess).
Is there a number you are looking for, or something else?
This isn't rocket science.
I don't really care about FIM's, or the Guiness Book of World Records, or other re-definitions of the term.
The commonsense, man-in-the-street definition and usage are simple: A production car is one anyone with enough money can go and buy through normal sales channels, if they have the money and it hasn't sold out. The number produced has nothing to do with it: Very limited-production cars like the Rimacs are still production cars: There are known, detailed, specs whichc identical for all exemplars of a model.
The recordbreaker LS-218 was not a production bike because it was a one-off vehicle with customized parts (which Lightning never disclosed publicly): Custom bodywork, custom gearing (maybe that is available off-the-shelf, no idea -- but the bodywork certainly isn't) plus several other modifications.
In most countries you couldn't homologate that particular LS-218, because you'd need to submit several additional identical examples for safety & equipment testing etc.
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Should the term Production also indicate to you, the user, that if you were to pull any two of the same model off the line and inspect them they should be more or less identical? Because every bike I've looked at up close is quite different from each other despite being the same model.
Having said that I am confident I could pull up two S2 Del Mars, Zero SR/S, or Energica EVA Ribelles and go "yeah these are the same thing".
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Should the term Production also indicate to you, the user, that if you were to pull any two of the same model off the line and inspect them they should be more or less identical? Because every bike I've looked at up close is quite different from each other despite being the same model.
Having said that I am confident I could pull up two S2 Del Mars, Zero SR/S, or Energica EVA Ribelles and go "yeah these are the same thing".
It would seem by your definition my Tesla Model 3 is not a production vehicle. Tesla continuously updates the hardware of its cars rather than waiting for a new model year. If you look up close you will find many updated parts in an effort to make a better product.
Maybe we should have a discussion about what it means to have a product in "Production".
Please review the links for known facts about Tesla's "Non-Production" vehicles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s
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It is a somewhat loose term, but I think it's fair to use the FIM's definition which means 125 units made on the initial visit with another 125 made within a year. https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2023/2023_FIM_Homologation_Regulations_For_Motorcycles_v1_27.01.2023_final.pdf?t=1680585786
If you look at the publicly posted financial statements from Lightning's investor page, it indicates they're selling between 4-8 bikes per year. https://netcapital.com/files/15128c6e-6501-4316-9a9e-3b5626a2b1dd/lightningmotorcycle_audit-report.pdf
And no two are identical.
How do you keep a manufacturing company operating selling only 4 to 8 bikes a year? I would think it would hardly keep a company with even a few employees financially functioning for even a month. ???
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Please review the links for known facts about Tesla's "Non-Production" vehicles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s
I would not presume to impart the FIM's regulations on a car.
edit- out of curiosity, how would YOU define production? Does it simply mean "something is being made?" or is there more to it?
How do you keep a manufacturing company operating selling only 4 to 8 bikes a year? I would think it would hardly keep a company with even a few employees financially functioning for even a month. ???
I don't know. These financials are provided by Lightning publicly.
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Richard Hatfield live q&a over zoom tomorrow:
http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/1380169/70d5104e98/543998511/a93bd29d54/
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It was interesting looking at the rendering of their Dual Sport concept and seeing the bags from the Energica Experia on it with the names scrubbed off. Like, not a similar bag from Givi, literally pixel for pixel the exact bags used in Energica's photoshoot.
edit- that was from the Investor Q&A Zoom yesterday.
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edit- out of curiosity, how would YOU define production? Does it simply mean "something is being made?" or is there more to it?
I personally would probably follow along with Wikipedia on this one as it's generally accepted by the masses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_vehicle#:~:text=Production%20vehicles%20or%20production%20cars,within%20particular%20countries%20or%20uses. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_vehicle#:~:text=Production%20vehicles%20or%20production%20cars,within%20particular%20countries%20or%20uses.)
"Production vehicle"
- There is no single fixed global definition of the term.
- There is no fixed definition of the number of vehicles or the amount of modification allowed outside of motorsports or national regulations or laws that determine what is or is not a production vehicle.
Rather than quote or harp on a term that has no global definition, it seems time would be better spent focusing on something more productive.
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In nearly every industry I'm familiar with (the only exception is large scale one-off software deployment), "production" is just short for "series production". That most certainly implies serial manufacturing of identical vehicles.
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Nobody likes our muscle bikes because they are just too powerful.
umm ok, whatever dude.
and the porn star is crying that his dick is too long too, nobody wants to see that right?
pretty much every hard core racer I have seen wants more power, not less.
Oh that Ducati is just TOO powerful, can you tone it down a bit? No I DON'T want a wrascal roustabout !
Well, at least Lightning supports charity, the whores for virginity foundation.
If they are copying pixel for pixel someone elses products to slap onto theirs, isn't that some kind of copyright violation or something? I mean I get it, it's the internet, and there's not much originality on that side of the planet and everyone steals everyone elses work but geez, at least doctor it up a bit and not just scribble the other guys name off it, or at least give credit to the origin of the work. I wonder what else they stole from Energica?
In production, well, there are several definitions depending on who's DICKtionary you want to use, and of course those def's will be twisted to align with the sayers goals etc etc. but my take, can I go in NOW and say I want one and it can be built, or is in stock, or being built if it's sold out etc etc. If it's something that someone wants to brag is 'custom' ok, can I still go in and order it and you can and WILL begin work on it now. Like my racing suit, .. each one is different, each one is unique, BUT each one is available as soon as you order it, the 'process' starts. You can look at a row of them and each is different, but you can see clearly, yes it's the Dainese leathers, type thing. That, is in production. Currently active being made, and for sale.
Production - It's not waiting for seed money, grift money, or competent help to make it happen. Selling 2 or 3 a year is NOT in production. Not advertising or not open for business is NOT in production.
Ok, so we just seen that some money was put down for one of these bikes.
WHEN will they start building it?
WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?
PRE order is not
PRO duction
If it does ever make the market, I wonder if they will go the way of Aprilla? Throw some of them out there and then you can't get any parts or service for them. If they don't have the parts to make new ones, they sure as hell are not going to have them to fix old ones! THAT is something one needs to take into consideration as well when getting something, just because they claim it's 'in production'. Oh I don't mind waiting 8 months to get a new set of brake pads !! I want 4 of those bikes !!
Aaron
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Y'know there is a lot of Lightning hate in on the internet in general. I want them to be successful. I remember when I heard about the $16,000 game changer that would soon be on the market. I was so stoked.
But when legitimate questions were answered with obvious lies, especially about production, I soured on the brand. Like many.
When questions like; "where are all the Lightnings?" "How come there aren't any owners posting videos and pics on social media?" "Where are the plugshare check ins?" the answer was there's a ton of owners but they only post on Lightning Specific media outlets that only owners, real owners, have access to. Mr. Hatfield insists, in an infamous expletive laden video and on other social media, that they've been producing and selling street legal bikes since 2016. I've only ever seen the footprint of the same 4 or 5 lightnings.
Answering the one question... How many lightnings have been sold to customers. (not employees or investors).
How many?
Like not even an exact number, give me the biggest "more than" number. More than 10? More than 50? More than 100?
Take a page from Trevor Milton. He admitted the "Test Mule" that appears in the promotional videos for his electric truck was either ICE Powered or rolling down a hill. He admitted his static displays at shows were plugged in and not functional. Now I have see a Hydrogen Nikola on the road. I personally know someone that ordered 50 Hydrogen Nikola Class 8 trucks. The truth recovered his company.
The source of all the distrust with Lightning is the one piece of information that all the lies and misdirection are surrounding.
How many Lightnings are out there?
Harley/Livewire published how many. We know about how many Experias there are because owners report their VIN numbers when asked. There is no question Zeros are the most common, at least here in the US. So far, all I ever see are #lightningstrikenumberone and his three buddies out and about.
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That, is in production. Currently active being made, and for sale.
Production - It's not waiting for seed money, grift money, or competent help to make it happen. Selling 2 or 3 a year is NOT in production. Not advertising or not open for business is NOT in production.
Ok, so we just seen that some money was put down for one of these bikes.
WHEN will they start building it?
WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?
Aaron
Whew! I swung by Lightning today to see how my bike is doing.
..."Selling 2 or 3 a year"... I am not sure where this number comes from.
Walking into the shop today, I see 3 new bikes ready or almost ready to go out the door. I am not sure where they are all going, but they are craking them out!
I asked Richard about non-waterproof bikes and he commented that the LS-218's are not waterproof. They are sold as track bikes that "can" be ridden on the street. He said he was not sure he could recommend it as they have so much power. In building the 218's, Lightning has some options for gearing, extended swingarms, and 800volt options. They make so much heat dumping massive amps to the motors, that Lightning has to leave an opening in the front for airflow for the batteries. This is spelled out to all potential customers and not hidden. Lightning recommends the Strike R/C for the street and 218's for the track only.
"WHEN will they start building it?" Mine started about a month ago, as they quoted me upon deposit.
"WHEN will that person reasonably expect they can see their bike?" Mine is almost ready for pickup. Yea!
My bike is almost completely built and exactly in the time frame they quoted. They are finishing up the cruise control buttons on the handlebar. Then they will be out doing drive tests, charge tests, etc. Ready for me Very Soon. (Next Week) Then it's up to me to schedule time for pickup, get insurance, and stop by the DMV. Oh, and bring some money.
I will post some pictures, but I can only attach one picture per post. So there will be a couple of posts after this.
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I will post some pictures, but I can only attach one picture per post. So there will be a couple of posts after this.
Stopping by to check on my new bike.
Here I found three new bikes getting ready to go.
First is the Blue Strike C, all finished waiting for customer pickup.
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Second up is a White Strike C, all finished. It needs a road test and charging tests. The customer has been notified to schedule pickup.
Lightning rides the bikes to ensure batteries provide power properly until properly depleted, then check the charging with CCS1-AC charging, then again with CCS-FC (DC Charging).
They also test the bikes with the major charging vendors to ensure compatibility.
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Next up is my bike, a Strike R. I requested no logos as I plan to use Vinyl Wrap to play with the
colors and graphics to my liking.
I requested the Black Wheels, silver upper triple clamp, and dark windscreen. I also requested a shortened license plate holder.
It's not a "Tidy Tail", but about as short as Richard could make it and still "look" legal. I forget all the mini-options I asked for, but after discussing with Richard, Lighting did all the reasonable requests. I asked about Dual Motors and was told "NO, you won't like that!" I thought dual 255hp motors would be fun!
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..."Selling 2 or 3 a year"... I am not sure where this number comes from.
Again, and I was very clear on this, the data Lightning provides publicly indicates that in 2021 they sold $175,790 worth of motorcycles. They're only making LS-218s and Strike Carbon or Carbon R models. The LS-218 is $38,000 and the Strike Carbon is $20k and the Strike R starts at $27k.
So, if in 2021 they sold only LS-218s that would indicate 4.6 motorcycles. If they sold only Strike Carbons it would indicate 8.78 motorcycles.
In 2022 they sold $82,992 worth of motorcycles. If that is LS-218 bikes it's 2.1 bikes. If it's base Strike R bikes it's 3 bikes. If it's Strike C bikes it's 4.15 bikes. Again, I did not create these numbers. I don't know how you get 25-50 bikes out of the financial data they are legally obligated to say is accurate.
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And, just for fun, here's a custom LS-218 delivered not too long ago.
LS-218 built for drag racing with swing arm extensions - 250 HP at the rear wheel, 275 HP at the motor shaft - over 1,100 lb ft of torque at the rear wheel - 490 lbs. - under 2 lbs/HP - verified numbers on the Dynojet chassis dynomometer. It is a beast!
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..."Selling 2 or 3 a year"... I am not sure where this number comes from.
Again, and I was very clear on this, the data Lightning provides publicly indicates that in 2021 they sold $175,790 worth of motorcycles. They're only making LS-218s and Strike Carbon or Carbon R models. The LS-218 is $38,000 and the Strike Carbon is $20k and the Strike R starts at $27k.
So, if in 2021 they sold only LS-218s that would indicate 4.6 motorcycles. If they sold only Strike Carbons it would indicate 8.78 motorcycles.
In 2022 they sold $82,992 worth of motorcycles. If that is LS-218 bikes it's 2.1 bikes. If it's base Strike R bikes it's 3 bikes. If it's Strike C bikes it's 4.15 bikes. Again, I did not create these numbers. I don't know how you get 25-50 bikes out of the financial data they are legally obligated to say is accurate.
I'm not sure how the numbers match up either, but in the last few months I have been haunting their shop, I've seen a number of new bikes go out. I just posted about new 3 bikes ready for pickup right now! They appear to be cranking them out.
I also asked about NACS charging in the future and was told they are working with Tesla about licensing and such. Richard also said he is planning to build an "upgrade?" kit for people with bikes who want to change their charging systems to NACS. I haven't heard anything from other manufacturers, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.
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I'm not sure how the numbers match up either
And you're fine with that, yes? Financials not jiving with what you're being told?
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I'm not sure how the numbers match up either
And you're fine with that, yes? Financials not jiving with what you're being told?
You seem to be the one that's doing all the telling.
I am showing factual pictures of what I see at the Lighting factory. I don't dig into their financials, I focus on riding bikes and having fun. If you have financials that show they sell 3 bikes a year, then you are correct. That is not enough for them to be in business. And yet they are in business cranking out new bikes. Mine included as promised with no upcharges or delays.
It seems like with every post you have something very negative to say about this little company and it's hard to understand why. If they bother you so much, why don't you play some other place? I don't think they are hurting you. Is there another agenda? Do you need to post your financials?
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Hey man I'm just asking questions.
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It seems as if their "engineering services" are what is keeping Lightning financially afloat. Building bikes is more of a sideline for them.
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It seems as if their "engineering services" are what is keeping Lightning financially afloat. Building bikes is more of a sideline for them.
Yup. The LS-218 was never a production motorcycle. The only 2 accounts of one I've seen on the Web by an owner were for highly customized non-street-legal racebikes. One was on this forum, for a bike with stronger engine, no lights and (possibly) a smaller battery.
The Strike was announced in April 2019 starting at $13K. I've yet to see any actual owner description, except for one motorcycie novice who was sold an incomplete prototype with half the battery (MVetter checked out that bike, as I recall).
So no, Lightning isn't a production motorcycle company.
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I can confirm the following motorcycles:
Guido, who works at Lightning, purchased a purple LS-218. It was involved in a traffic collision and, as far as I know has never been fully repaired. Guido left his job at Apple and now works at Lightning.
Kevin B purchased the aforementioned #lightningstrikenumberone. It was supposed to be Carbon specced but he took delivery of the base model with half the battery and no DC charging. It took ~2 years for them to upgrade his bike.
Kevin K purchased a Strike Carbon and seems happy with it.
James G purchased a Strike Carbon and they, like Kevin B, delivered a base model with promise of upgrades later. James is a track day junkie and avid motorcyclist and pressured them more aggressively for his bike to be completed. Not only did they upgrade the battery pack, they also changed the motor, controller, sprockets etc which LOOKED like what I've seen on the Strike R aka the same motor in the LS-218. I assumed it was a Strike R but Hatfield said it wasn't. I met with James to test the DC charging capabilities on the bike and helped him get it going. Later James moved to Arizona and Lightning failed to put glycol in the liquid cooling system. As it was just water it froze in the Arizona winter and all the coolant lines froze and broke. James had to send the bike back to Hollister for repairs. Current status unknown.
Jeff C paid for a Carbon and they delivered him a base model. This is the unit I have most direct experience with because Jeff lives 30 miles from me and was a fledgling motorcyclist. Jeff wasn't as assertive as James and for years was given the runaround on upgrades, notably the half-sized battery, DC charging, and AC charging where he had 3.3 instead of the promised 6.6kW. I have seen Jeff's bike up close and personal many times. Not wanting to incite drama I never took anything on it apart. But I did take a lot of photos and videos so I can back up claims I make about build quality. Not going to do that here, though. Jeff claims he was constantly ignored, gaslit, and sometimes accused of tampering with the bike by Lightning as they took a long time and several visits to get upgrades. During one of the times his bike was in the shop, Guido and Kevin B decided to go for a joyride from Hollister to San Francisco. Kevin B took his bike, and Guido took Jeff's bike without asking. How do I know it was Jeff's bike? They photographed the trip and the plates were visible. Jeff was not happy. In the end he never got everything he paid for and sold the bike out of frustration to a guy who works at the Costco in Salinas. He's given up on motorcycling entirely.
edit- forgot one!
Steven S aka Florida Man purchased a yellow LS-218 with a shamrock embroidered on the seat for track days. It did not have DC fast charging on it. After its arrival in Florida, Steven appeared to run into legal troubles and abandoned a trailer on the side of the road containing the LS-218, 2 Livewires, a Zero SR/S, and several Energica powertains. It is presumed to have been repossessed and liquidated at auction. Current whereabouts unknown.
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Given a majority of the e bikes seem to be sold mostly in Florida and California, is there some way you can queue or poll the DMV and ask, how many of XXX bikes, YYY cars or whatever have been tagged this year? They could tell you, yes we issued 200 plates for the Lightning 123 bike?
That should give an idea if any are sneaking out and not being reported to the IRS for some reason.
Aaron
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Given a majority of the e bikes seem to be sold mostly in Florida and California, is there some way you can queue or poll the DMV and ask, how many of XXX bikes, YYY cars or whatever have been tagged this year? They could tell you, yes we issued 200 plates for the Lightning 123 bike?
That should give an idea if any are sneaking out and not being reported to the IRS for some reason.
Aaron
As it seems like digging into Lightning's financials is the primary concern of some people, why don't we dig into the financials of other manufacturers?
Did anyone check into the financials for Energica? Honda? VW? (They are in debt hell. 196.79B for Sept. 30, 2023). Toyota (Also in debt hell, September 2023: $223.34 B, but they still sell cars).
I keep getting the feeling some people have ulterior motives as opposed to helping others.
Trying to drag a smaller motorcycle manufacturer down looks to be constant.
Is there a reason for this?
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why don't we dig into the financials of other manufacturers?
People do.
Constantly.
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If I was going to buy a new electric motorcycle, I would want to have some confidence that they were financially stable enough to stay in business for the many years that I would like to own and ride their motorcycle before I buy it.
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You show up out of nowhere, playing captain save - a - ho for Lightning, then when the people who are asking legit questions, ask them, you get all butthurt about it. How much are they paying you to shill for them? Or are you one of them trolling?
Or maybe, are you the ONE bike they are actually going to manufacture with you perfectly positioned to do the tictoc series on it, to try to undo all the earned bad rep they got? so they can then sucker others into sending them $$$ since their other money raising efforts failed miserably?
Next step I guess is you flooding the boards with your bike and saying how wonderful awesome bla bla bla it is, yet no other bikes will be made for the rest of the year? Shhh on that, just send $$$$ for preorders !!! they need to pay themselves, payday is coming up.
Of course people want to help the small guy, but there are a ton of crooks and losers out there too. If someone is blowing a lot of smoke yet you never see any fire, it makes one begin to wonder, is this another scam, or dead dream? But hey if you want to be the nice guy and give your money to a company that will potentially be gone in a year or so, and if you ever have problems, well good luck with that !! Go for it.
I did thorough research into the financials before i bought my E bike. Most intelligent people would do that.
WHO in their right mind wants to blow 30k for a bike to see the company go out of business the next year and they are stuck with a hugely expensive paperweight? One that might spontaneously catch on fire at that given the battery tech.
I wanted a Rivian, but after watching them for a while, good thing I didn't just blindly throw money at them. Their specs keep quietly shrinking... a lot like Tesla's power wall specs did. But hey, Rivian sends a shit ton of fluffy bunny hugging e mails out, and their newest update lets you recycle those unicorn farts into an air freshener in the cabin !!!! HURRY reserve yours NOW !!!!!!! It's only $1000 !!!!!
This isn't about Rivian though, this is about a company that has been huge on promises, pretty much nothing on actual product, yet promising more dreams, which are to be conjured out of what?????
This 'process' you describe sounds more like a Brady Bunch rerun.
I sincerely hope you get your bike, and you have a lot of fun with it, and if / when it has problems, you are able to get support on it. Although YOUR mind seems made up as well, a lot of the grief, these companies are getting, was brought upon them, by themselves.
food for thought.
Aaron
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I did thorough research into the financials before i bought my E bike. Most intelligent people would do that.
WHO in their right mind wants to blow 30k for a bike to see the company go out of business the next year and they are stuck with a hugely expensive paperweight?
Doing some research on Energica and it looks like it's for sale.
Looking into the financials, it doesn't look good. If you are concerned about long-term support (as we all should),
I would check with a financial advisor for their opinion on Energica's future.
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I am seeing that Apollo, and TBH at this point, not sure what to think.
Companies get bought and sold all the time, doesn't mean they are going out of business though. Im hoping that is not the case with Energica as id love to see them stick around a while. Sometimes companies get traded several times before they finally get a good leadership team that lets them do what they do best. Im not saying E's root leadership is lacking but if they are owned by an entity that is just a big corporate conglomerate, their overall owners may not have a clue what they do, or care a thing about it, just have it make us money, yet want to nit pick and micromanage and play american politics bullshit and not LET the company thrive. The sale might be the thing that lets them bloom and finally come out of their shell so to speak and hit the mainstream running.
All of this is just speculation though, as we don't know what is really going on and are going crazy over something in the newspaper, which might be mostly bullshit as well. The lamestream media loves to push false narratives as well for the page click revenue it generates. This could also just be a routine thing, we don't know at this point.
Beating up Morgan, although he's a hard core Energica fan, possibly even a salesman, does NOT mean he's on the core team that decides or is even privvy to this kind of thing. Him being quiet does not mean they are hiding something, merely, he doesn't know either.
Now that everyone's concerns have been made public, AND been laid out pretty specific. How Energica reacts will be a key factor to see what's really going on. Hopefully we can hear a little something here.
If they are losing money, the first thing they need to stop that is move the fuck OUT of Commiefornia. That right there, while the move might ding them pretty good, will save them millions in the long run. That state is NOT business friendly at all, which is why so many BIG companies are fleeing as well. Silicon valley is it's own communistic little marxist world, any other company that produces real products, needs to move where they are friendly towards business'. Florida is a great state, so is Texas, South Carolina is good too. Many states that would love to have them there. As it stands their stuff comes IN via Florida to begin with, because Cali's ports are such a disaster, and is trucked to them. that eats cash fast. Why not move to florida, have the stuff delivered first time right to your door? From what is being said, the shop they have there is not super big, so it's not like you are moving a billon dollar warehouse.
Hopefully we hear some genuine feedback and not speculation.
Aaron
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Perhaps it makes more financial sense to ship to an East Coast port (Scab probably) and truck to the West coast. It's a long trip through the Panama canal to the West coast ports.
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I am seeing that Apollo, and TBH at this point, not sure what to think.
Hopefully we hear some genuine feedback and not speculation.
Aaron
Sorry, but I am confused by your first statement and your last.
Can you refraise your first sentence? I am not sure what you are saying and would like to understand without any misconception.
>> Hopefully we hear some genuine feedback and not speculation.
I'm not sure what this is either. How do we determine if feedback is genuine and isn't speculation a subset of feedback? I'm lost on this also.
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You seem to be awful confused Apollo
Maybe you should check the financial's for Lightning as well:
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1646406/000166919123001110/xslC_X01/primary_doc.xml
seems they are in a bit of a financial mess as well this year.
Let us know when you get your bike. Be interested to hear how it runs.
Aaron
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Perhaps it makes more financial sense to ship to an East Coast port (Scab probably) and truck to the West coast. It's a long trip through the Panama canal to the West coast ports.
At the time yes it does. The west coast is a nightmare. Their ports are backed up sometimes for months before the ships that come in, can actually unload, and then getting the connex' actually unloaded and/or shipped to where they need to be. It's a Cali thing..... East coast, and Texas for that matter, the ports are very open, ships are in and out in normal times, and boxes on the move in short order. This is exactly what Energica and several other companies been doing, bringing it in East coast, and trucking to west. Saves a ton of time, and believe it or not, still saves money too with even the extra steps in it. That just goes to also highlight how high the cost of doing business in the West coast is, when they can essentially bring it in, and ship it across the country, for cheaper than getting it straight there with their prices, not to mention pissed off customers when something is delayed months.
Now we see companies are losing a lot of money. Where to stop that loss? 1. Earn More 2. CUT LOSSES. first logical step, get OUT of the place that is taxing you to death, and move to a more business friendly state, one would think. If you are having an issue earning money then you need to cut the cost of doing business.
aaron
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My newspaper and TV reports since the summer have mentioned that the Oakland, CA, shipping terminal is no longer backed up and is functioning well. No more ships cooling their heels in the ocean, just a few waiting in the SF Bay for their turn to offload.
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If they are losing money, the first thing they need to stop that is move the fuck OUT of Commiefornia. That right there, while the move might ding them pretty good, will save them millions in the long run.
As it stands their stuff comes IN via Florida to begin with, because Cali's ports are such a disaster, and is trucked to them. that eats cash fast. Why not move to florida, have the stuff delivered first time right to your door? From what is being said, the shop they have there is not super big, so it's not like you are moving a billon dollar warehouse.
Aaron
Energica's headquarters are not in CA as we all know. A support, setup, and distribution area is. This is mainly due to the super large number of units sold in CA. I don't have any numbers, but CA has more motorcycle registrations than any other state by almost double. CA also has more EV registrations than any other state by almost double. Most likely that's why they are in CA.
Note that Ducati moved it's headquarters to CA a while back.(2003) They used to be East Coast based. (NJ)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ducati+North+America+Corporate+Headquarters/@37.4218949,-122.0602486,11.76z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x808fb5b476af9941:0x860448da97d7d32d!8m2!3d37.4100956!4d-121.9881435!16s%2Fg%2F1tj73v8g?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ducati+North+America+Corporate+Headquarters/@37.4218949,-122.0602486,11.76z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x808fb5b476af9941:0x860448da97d7d32d!8m2!3d37.4100956!4d-121.9881435!16s%2Fg%2F1tj73v8g?entry=ttu)
Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki are all headquartered in Southern CA.(and Hyundai, Nissan, Rivian)
Toyota Sales USA is in CA, but the business headquarters moved to Plano TX in 2017 to lessen the tax load.
I would suspect that someday in the future Tesla will shutdown it's CA plant.
There must be something good in CA.
Energica shows the US Headquarters in Mooresville NC, and Sales and Service to be in S.San Fran CA, but I suspect the NC location does most of the bike setups and shipping to dealers for the East Coast.
Energica may get a container of bikes to NC, then separate the bikes for West. They then load the
West Coast bikes onto a truck and ship. Delivery via rail would be cheaper, but that requires more lead time and a much larger shipment.
I would highly suspect the business operations at Energica NC have already looked over the books to determine the most economical way to get the bikes to customers.
For more info on how the inner workings of Energica operate internally, is probably better answered by MVetter.
He probably has more knowledge of how things are done at Energica than us.
Apollo
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No, Energica doesn't do any bike setup for east coast bikes at Mooresville. Everything that gets delivered to the east coast get shipped from California. The containers are not broken down into east coast/west coast so everything gets shipped to CA and then sorted out.
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No, Energica doesn't do any bike setup for east coast bikes at Mooresville. Everything that gets delivered to the east coast get shipped from California. The containers are not broken down into east coast/west coast so everything gets shipped to CA and then sorted out.
Correct. Italy --> Port of Oakland --> SSF --> dealers and/or customers.
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BTY, I just read an article that said that shipping things through the Panama Canal is becoming a real problem. The large lake that supplies the water needed to operate the locks has been dropping due to climate changes that have resulted in the country getting less rain than in the past. This has resulted in a reduction in ship transits through the locks and ships being backed up into both oceans. Not only has the fee to cross the Canal been going up but some shippers are paying the country a premium to jump the line to cross the canal ahead of other ships when they have time-sensitive cargoes. So I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is less expensive and likely faster to ship to Mooresville, transport the bikes to SSF via rail or truck, where they are assembled and checked over and then ship the assembled bikes directly to Energica dealers in the U.S.
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There was a time when bikes would go to the East Coast and be trucked to SSF. But Oakland is back online and it's my understanding that Oakland remains the better option. At least for now.
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BTY, I just read an article that said that shipping things through the Panama Canal is becoming a real problem. Not only has the fee to cross the Canal been going up but some shippers are paying the country a premium to jump the line to cross the canal ahead of other ships when they have time-sensitive cargoes. So I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is less expensive and likely faster to ship to Mooresville, transport the bikes to SSF via rail or truck, where they are assembled and checked over and then ship the assembled bikes directly to Energica dealers in the U.S.
The rabbit hole that is the logistics of international sea freight is a deep one. Panama is a unfortunate choke point for cargo traveling from the Atlantic to ports on the Pacific side of North America, and they know it. So long as the price they charge for passage is less than the additional time and fuel costs associated with a ship taking a Pacific route, shipping companies will keep paying.
Early 2021 saw a massive spike of goods arriving in US ports causing major backlogs. West coast ports were impacted the hardest partially due to stricter Covid restrictions, limiting cargo throughput. We were seeing delays of 45+ days for containers arriving to the port of Oakland. The temporary solution was to use East coast ports and then truck cargo cross country to our location in CA. Also during this time there was a imbalance in the distribution of containers used to transport goods on ships. Too many containers were arriving in the US and not enough were leaving to supply the international demand, causing major spikes in shipping prices.
Things have thankfully returned to "normal". All current shipments of Energica motorcycles come through the port of Oakland.
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Did Apollo ever get his bike back? I've seen some advocacy starting to follow Lightning around on social media. Like a Lightning employee will post about their awesome bike and someone will pop into the comments with something along the lines of "that's great for you and imma let you finish, but did [Apollo] ever get his bike back?"
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They probably need some more pre purchase deposits, to buy the parts needed to fix his battery so they can get it back to him.
That is the one part I simply don't understand about his situation. We have to discuss the plan forward? What's there to discuss, put a new battery in. Unless he bought the bike as a second hand used bike with an 'as is' warranty on it, (meaning no warranty) then it really should be a no brainer as I doubt there is much anything he could have done in the short time he had the bike to molest it to the point where it failed like it did w/o there being a problem in the first place with it.
I know ive been tearing my bike around the track with absolutely no battery problems with it, in fact to be totally honest Im kind of surprised the battery is lasting as much as it is per charge, id have expected a harder drain on it! Even if he was racing it, even THAT should not have killed his battery like that. Hell, even Mesa slamming his bike in the 170's has not ate his battery yet.
Id love to go side by side with his lightning on the track, I think it'd be a blast TBH. Drag strip would be neat too, or somewhere one could open them up w/o having to worry about the blue light special too much. I won't hold my breath though.
aaron
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And, just for fun, here's a custom LS-218 delivered not too long ago.
LS-218 built for drag racing with swing arm extensions - 250 HP at the rear wheel, 275 HP at the motor shaft - over 1,100 lb ft of torque at the rear wheel - 490 lbs. - under 2 lbs/HP - verified numbers on the Dynojet chassis dynomometer. It is a beast!
Doesn't look like this bike is delivered. Peter, owner of a biker bar in Hollister, went over to the Lightning factory and shot a video today which caught my eye because the machine looked familiar.
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Oh shut up Morgan, it's just in for it's 3000 mile timing chain adjustment so the diesel heads fire in synch. Those electric kanuten flappers get temperamental at times, especially when the spark plugs widen under the yaw of such a tremendous load on them! You are such a conspiracy nut!
Aaron