ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: flattetyre on February 20, 2020, 06:19:05 AM
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OK, been a huge fan of the LS-218 for years. But the preponderance of evidence suggests lightning has never actually sold a single one to a consumer unaffiliated with the company. Why?
--There are no youtube private owner videos. AT ALL. Does that make any sense in 2020 (or even years ago when the bike was "launched") for a really trick bike people would want to show off? Even Energica, a very low volume manufacturer has private owner videos. Even very very rare niche bikes like the Boss Hoss have private owner videos. That's pretty weird that there would be quite a few press videos, and the hillclimb, but no private owner videos of a bike that supposedly has been for sale for years. Isn't it?
--Lightning owners group on facebook is mostly filled with people asking where their bikes are. A couple people recently posted supposed deliveries of their strikes, but I have to question if these are actual consumers with no connection to the company. From everything else we have seen from Lightning, I think it would be a safe assumption that these posts are company propaganda.
--Generally sketchy nature of the company's promises and announcements is a red flag
Now an important question is what would constitute proof of Lightning actually having sold the LS-218 to a totally unaffiliated consumer. A good start would be someone not in California who can tell a plausible story about how they got their bike. Other suggestions on how to settle this matter conclusively are welcome.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
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How many videos are there of other bespoke vehicles? Is there a non-affiliated video for every superbike out there?
-Crissa
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Ok this is all I could ever find. I think the solar company put the panels on the van that took the bike to the salt flats so I guess there was still a connection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29aQXRrROhU
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How many videos are there of other bespoke vehicles? Is there a non-affiliated video for every superbike out there?
-Crissa
Instead of bespoke I probably should have said pre-production or prototype. And for an actual production bike that has gotten as much press and general interest as the LS-218, it would seem virtually impossible (of course, not impossible) for no unaffiliated videos to exist. The bike has gotten a lot of attention even outside the electric community. It's even in one of the most popular sportbike video games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
My challenge should be easily falsifiable if Lightning's actually sold these bikes! That's sort of the point; they're the ones making the original claim (we sell the LS-218 to regular motorcyclists) but it looks like may be good reason for skepticism. Maybe a better thread title would have been "How to prove Lightning has actually sold bikes to real consumer as they've been claiming for years"
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This question has been raised in the past. Also the claim of what defines "production" bikes. Access to DMV files may reveal how many Lightning bikes have been registered with them. The price alone for an LS218 would have kept any sales to very small numbers and it is hard to say how much tech is on the LS-218. That could have limited sales further. Right now it seems the Strike that is being delivered is very much a bare bones electric motorcycles. Much of the tech on the LS-218 could have been transferred over and used on the Strike. But this is only if the LS218 actually had any tech features and with lack of video and other feedback that is hard to know. I would think if Lightning sold a LS-218 there should be a VIN associated with the bike and that VIN should be somewhere in the DMV system.
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This has been discussed several times here. I've asked this question on multiple EV websites, forums & groups. Noone on them had, or knows anyone who had, what would reasonably be called a production LS-218.
One person, user Jayski (https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=8537) posted here. He identifies as an actual LS-218 owner who bought the bike for racing purposes (e.g., Land Speed record).
However, his bike is a 1-off custom build (custom motor, 750V battery system) especially done by Lightning over a year cooperating with him. It also doesn't have a legal lighting setup; I therefore wouldn't call it a production bike.
For that matter, the LS-218 claim to fame, "world's fastest production bike" is inherently bogus. That speed was attained by a bike with full-coverage custom enclosed fairing and custom gearing.
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Is there even any evidence that the recent strike "deliveries" are legit? Aside from all the other stuff it doesn't make sense that the bikes are in "production" but they only roll out like two.
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I can confirm I have seen one Strike in person. The one I saw is a Carbon Edition but has what is being referred to as a "temporary" battery. 10kWh battery, 3.3kW AC charging only, no rider modes, no programmable regeneration. The one we rode had a very hard time going over 80mph. We're going to try and get more up close photos and riding tests on Sunday.
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This question has been raised in the past. Also the claim of what defines "production" bikes. Access to DMV files may reveal how many Lightning bikes have been registered with them. The price alone for an LS218 would have kept any sales to very small numbers and it is hard to say how much tech is on the LS-218. That could have limited sales further. Right now it seems the Strike that is being delivered is very much a bare bones electric motorcycles. Much of the tech on the LS-218 could have been transferred over and used on the Strike. But this is only if the LS218 actually had any tech features and with lack of video and other feedback that is hard to know. I would think if Lightning sold a LS-218 there should be a VIN associated with the bike and that VIN should be somewhere in the DMV system.
Registering vehicle is done by the states in the US; I don't think there's a national registry.
However, there is a Federal requirement that each on-road vehicle be assigned a unique VIN in a standard international format. Part of the VIN, the World Manufacturer Identifier (WMI) identifies the manufacturer, so theoretically, just like you can lookup a specific VIN for things like recalls, you should have been able to search how many have been assigned to Lightning. Unfortunately, it appears that this isn't free info -- the SAE who assign WMIs charge $500/year for access to the list of WMIs.
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MVetter, Any chance you get take a look at the VIN of the Strike you have seen? Might be interesting to know what the last few numbers are as it might be an indicator of how many were made at that point.
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I can tell you from experience that if you don't have the right VIN with 17 digits and with correct numbers and letters, you will get booted out of the DMV office when you try to register the vehicle. However, I believe that there is a way to get around their regulations (such as for home-built and off-road-only vehicles), but that requires specialized knowledge and DMV connections. I have heard that there are a few companies that make a living registering weird vehicles for on-road usage, such as the stuff that Jay Leno owns. ;)
However, it sure sounds to me that Lightning must have received some sort of manufacturer's experimental exemption for their current Strike models, such as when a new pre-production model is being tested on public roads by a vehicle manufacturer - like when Zero was testing the SR/S, as an example.
What retail customer would buy a vehicle with temporary guts that don't meet the advertised specifications and likely comes with a promise that they might be changed in the future once the bugs are worked out of the design and what sort of guarantee would they receive for the vehicle? ???
And if something misfires while they are riding the motorcycle and the owner is hurt, hurts someone else, or causes third-party damage, I hope Lightning has a good product liability insurance policy. There are a ton of ambulance-chasing lawyers advertising on TV who would love to take the case and sue a vehicle manufacturer for damages - such as Russ Brown "The Motorcyclist's Attorney". ::)
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MVetter, Any chance you get take a look at the VIN of the Strike you have seen? Might be interesting to know what the last few numbers are as it might be an indicator of how many were made at that point.
I'll look today, but I recall it being something like 114, so it may be arbitrary, or it may be bike #4. Dunno. When dad made serialized Vetter fairings he would start the serial numbers at an arbitrary number so people never knew how many were made. Could be a case of that here as well.
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Ok this is all I could ever find. I think the solar company put the panels on the van that took the bike to the salt flats so I guess there was still a connection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29aQXRrROhU
Another claimed purchaser is an Apple executive, supposedly a daily driver.
Apple is of course famous for how they control publicity, and I would expect people who are known to be Apple employees to be very careful about publicity.
Maybe they've sold two.
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I can confirm I have seen one Strike in person. The one I saw is a Carbon Edition but has what is being referred to as a "temporary" battery. 10kWh battery, 3.3kW AC charging only, no rider modes, no programmable regeneration. The one we rode had a very hard time going over 80mph.
What makes more sense, that a regular consumer would actually accept that, or that someone in lightning's network is riding it for testing and to help them get press? In other words how do you know the bike is a legit delivery? Sure doesn't sound like one.
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What makes more sense, that a regular consumer would actually accept that, or that someone in lightning's network is riding it for testing and to help them get press? In other words how do you know the bike is a legit delivery? Sure doesn't sound like one.
‘Cause I’m looking at it and talking to the owner right now.
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‘Cause I’m looking at it and talking to the owner right now.
Well, fair enough, and how do you know that person isn't affiliated with lightning in any way other than having ordered a strike?
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flattetyre, Have you even read anything in this thread or watched the video? I think it is pretty obvious the guy that MVetter is dealing with isn't affiliated with Lightning. I say that because I have read this and other threads that MVetter has written and I have watched the video and I think it is safe to say that this isn't the kind of press that Richard wants for Lightning. There is very little positive that is being said about the Strike. I can't believe that Lightning would deliver a bike to a customer that has all of the issues described because it shows is just how screwed up Lightning really is. But I think it is great that MVetter is doing this because if a potential buyer is going to pay $20K for a bike it really shouldn't have the issues that the Strike seems to have.
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On the other hand, if someone thinks the bike is beautiful and want to get it built, or want to take delivery of what they have, that's fine, too.
Not everything comes out fully formed and perfect. Certainly all other manufacturers had their rough years.
-Crissa
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On the other hand, if someone thinks the bike is beautiful and want to get it built, or want to take delivery of what they have, that's fine, too.
Not everything comes out fully formed and perfect. Certainly all other manufacturers had their rough years.
-Crissa
Put a deposit on one of 3 choices
Wait
Pay in full at final assembly
On the other hand?
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Well, fair enough, and how do you know that person isn't affiliated with lightning in any way other than having ordered a strike?
I guess I can't, ultimately. What I will say is after the hours I've spent riding and talking with him I do not believe he is affiliated. He could be an amazing actor and a liar, but I do not suspect that even in the slightest. I believe he is a regular person who happened to put an order for a bike in just at the right time and paid the full amount.
(http://i.imgur.com/n3WhH9nm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/n3WhH9n)
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I believe he is a regular person who happened to put an order for a bike in just at the right time and paid the full amount.
I give your assessment the benefit of the doubt and contrary to what that other poster said I certainly don't think you are connected to the company. Can you think of any way we could independently verify that these bikes are actually being sent to unaffiliated consumers? How might we do that besides traveling to California and trying to talk with people who possess a Strike?
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I mean that's kinda what I did with the ONE, yes ONE I could find today.
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Morgan, admit that you're a Lightning shill and they haven't actually delivered any "production" motorcycles ;D
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No one said or thinks MVetter is a shill. His locked thread on the front page of this forum is great evidence of his impartiality.
On the other hand, the biggest electric motovlogger is definitely a shill, publishing almost completely one-sided info on Lightning as the company courts him. Your viewers deserve better, as many of them may know next to nothing of the situation and see your endorsement as a go-ahead to make a deposit, even though there is good reason to believe that may be an unwise move at this point in time.
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Listen bro, first off, that was sarcasm. A joke. Morgan and I are buds,so you can relax.
Second, if you haven't ridden a Strike, you don't know how good or bad it is. I have, and I loved it. Even as Brandon said in his video, the way the chassis feels is amazing, and that's what I focused on in my video. The FEEL of the bike.
I don't work for Lightning or get money from them, and it's not my product. There was no bias going on. All I do is share my experience. My channel is called newzeroland and I ride a Zero, yet I had no problem saying that I didn't like the SR/F. Go ride a Strike or talk to someone who has before pretending you know anything about them.
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I got to see it and damn, I thought it was beautiful. It may have reliability issues, but I dunno how much of these things will be safety issues. I think we freak out about the tiny chance of an electrical risk when a gas bike would be tons more dangerous.
*shrug*
I hope they get to finish that bike. Because it looks like a Lamborghini compared to the Energica's Ferrari and the Zero's well... Something Japanese. ^-^
-Crissa
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Because it looks like a Lamborghini compared to the Energica's Ferrari and the Zero's well... Something Japanese. ^-^
Haha that's a cool way to look at it ;D
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Lambos weren't known for their practicality or reliability ^-^;
So yeah.
-Crissa
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sam fite me irl bro im jacked as shit
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I feel like this topic has been beat to death but I'll still check the thread...popcorn in hand. ;D
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Winner to face Logan Paul for the internet championship of the world.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/3q9fg3.jpg)
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I feel like this topic has been beat to death but I'll still check the thread...popcorn in hand. ;D
If the topic is the title here pertaining to the LS218 things kind of got derailed.
There have been a few at least links put up on here to articles that referenced the LS218 as something that has been around for a while. I spent perhaps 10 minutes searching and the ones I found were carefully worded so that if the premise here in the title is correct they would not have lied.
I can put up a certificate of origion for a KTM freeride. How does it work in California do you get the certificate of origion and go to motor vehicle pay the sales tax and then get the title in the mail? Perhaps if someone put a copy of the certificate of origion? Incidentally my bike is not for highway use in the USA and the sae horsepower number is vacant and the gvwr says cc I guess closed course.
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Generally, posting documents like that on the internet is a bad idea.
-Crissa
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Yeah, most people even blur their license plates in photos.
I've talked to 3 people who own and ride LS218s (one was hit by a car and I saw his bike at the shop, so I can confirm that). His facebook account is also private, so all the photos he shared of his bike were only to friends. That could be the case with other owners. No one knows how many were sold or who they were sold to, but it's the same with a lot of expensive, boutique bikes.
Sarolea sold around 20 of their electric superbikes. But to who? We may never know, but it doesn't mean they're lying.
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The idea of this thread is to come up with a way for any of us to independently verify whether Lightning actually sold LS-218s to a regular consumer, ideally without going to California. I have faith that there is likely a solution to this problem if Lightning actually has sold LS-218s to regular consumers.
Re impartiality of the electric motovlogger, judge for yourself: we're talking a guy who we KNOW is courted by the company to the extent that the CEO goes on a ride with him, he has a deposit on an (undelivered) bike, and even moderates the Facebook owners group for Lightning. Ask yourself if such a person has a conflict of interest. Yeah, uh, in what universe DOESN'T he have a conflict of interest?
Re the bikes themselves, they are unequivocally badass and nobody claimed otherwise although apparently the Strikes so far allegedly delivered are not completely finished, which is a shame. Anyway, the question here isn't whether the bikes are awesome (they are) the question is whether the company is being honest. There is cause for great skepticism on this last point.
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Lightning is a super small team and production has been slow over the years, so the number of people who actually own these bikes probably isn't very high. If there's an online database for registered vehicles, maybe you can search there. Does that kinda thing exist in the US? A VIN look-up website or something?
Re: me being a shill, you're spot on. Lightning paid me so much money to shoot those youtube videos that I'm going to buy all of you guys Lightnings. That way you can all be owners. And then I can question whether or not you really are owners ::) It's a genius plan, I know.
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You can give mine to someone else; it's a legit fire hazard.
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> Re the bikes themselves, they are unequivocally badass ...
Umm. Anybody not connected to the company verified this?
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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> ... If there's an online database for registered vehicles, maybe you can search there. Does that kinda thing exist in the US? A VIN look-up website or something?
Bloomberg did it for Tesla Model 3...
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/tesla-model-3-vin-tracker/
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It's illegal in the state to put the vin database information from California online.
So no,
-Crissa
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Sarolea sold around 20 of their electric superbikes. But to who? We may never know, but it doesn't mean they're lying.
In all press releases they talk about producing 20 N60 bikes, not having actually sold them. In the Dutch registration I cannot find any recent Sarolea, but the bikes might not have been sold in NL. Price is 70k euro ex VAT.
Edit:
Makes me wonder why Lightning wanted to produce an affordable bike so badly; shouldn't they have stayed at the higher side of the market?
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> ... If there's an online database for registered vehicles, maybe you can search there. Does that kinda thing exist in the US? A VIN look-up website or something?
Bloomberg did it for Tesla Model 3...
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/tesla-model-3-vin-tracker/
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Not quite. What Bloomberg did was collate information provided by owners -- they gave the VINs of the cars they bought & the dates, where they lived etc, which given production of many thousands allowed Bloomberg's tracker to estimate what the total production was, and when Tesla was shipping cars to which region and how many.
That's not relevant when you don't have any actual numbers to infer ranges from (and a manufacturer doesn't necessarily use continuous sequences -- though it's a reasonable conclusion if analysis of numerous VINs yields a lot of them).
Given the actual number of Lightning bikes is certainly small, whatever it is, you couldn't infer much even if you had VINs for several bikes.
There is a Federal database of VIN numbers, but AFAICS it only allows retrieving the record for a specific known VIN, to get recall info for that vehicle.
I have been able to find the WMI (the manufacturer code, characters #1-#3 of the VIN), or at least one of them assigned to lightning. it's "57S" according to this 2013 letter (https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/MfrPortal/Manufacturers/displayfile/147) (PDF) from the SAE (the authority that allocates WMIs) to Lightning;
however, I don't think it's very useful in itself.
AFAIK, a manufacturer doesn't report to any Federal or state authority how many vehicles it produced, certainly not an itemized list of their VIN numbers(*);
in fact, since recall notices usually provide the starting/ending VIN for the affected vehicles, I've seen automotive articles estimate how many of a vehicle model (or sub-model) were made based on that.
(*)If it's a public company, it may report total quantities in financial reports, but that doesn't apply to Lightning.
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The idea of this thread is to come up with a way for any of us to independently verify whether Lightning actually sold LS-218s to a regular consumer, ideally without going to California. I have faith that there is likely a solution to this problem if Lightning actually has sold LS-218s to regular consumers.
Did you bother searching out and reading the couple of hundreds or so posts/comments on this subject across this and many other forums, m/c & EV blogs, FB pages, etc., pretty much everywhere that covered Lightning online and had an option to comment?
If not, please do so before continuing to post.
- Everything that you've brought up has been brought up before' multiple times. Some of it 4-5 years ago.
- Most people who commented do agree that's it quite odd that there haven't been virtually any first ride reports / owner's perspective stories / related forum posts (e.g., what aftermarket farkle of type xyzzy fits the LS-218 or Strike) on either the LS-218 or the Strike.
- Some think it's so odd that it's highly unlikely Lightning has actually delivered production Strikes, and/or LS-218s, or any production bikes at all(*)
- There's no easy way to know 100% for sure, unless all the buyers come forward and detail their specific circumstances.
- It also depends on your definition of a regular consumer & production bike.
The case can also easily be made that noone who buys a Rimac is a regular consumer
All that said, why do you care?
If you're interested in the LS-218 specifically, flying to California to look into it and the company in person costs little compared to the cost of the bike & maintaining it (with no known dealer or service facility outside the factory).
Are you trying to form an opinion about whether you can in general buy a series-produced bike from them (maybe the Strike is more likely, given the cost) as you would from Honda? Save your effort, it's obvious that for all intents and purposes you can't currently. You shouldn't think of them in those terms at all, no matter what ignorant "journalists" and bloggers who regurgitate press releases write.
They're a tiny startup, not an experienced manufacturer.
(*)Personally, I'm in this last group.
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Here is some VIN trivia for you. I went back through my motorcycle purchase records and found the VIN of my first electric motorcycle. It was a 2008 Electric Motorsport GPR-S, produced in a home garage-sized "factory" by a small company in Oakland, California. This company only produced a handful of motorcycles that year, but they were actually purchased by customers all over the U.S. and I bought mine from an electric vehicle retailer, The Electric Green Showroom, in San Carlos (or was it Redwood City?), CA. (Photo attached).
The VIN of this bike (long since dissolved into its component parts) was: 1E9GSR16581456016 (My guess is that it was probably the 16th model that they produced that year, which I believe was their first year of electric motorcycle production, other than specialty and pre-production vehicles.)
At that time the company was selling through both retailers like the Electric Green Showroom and directly from the factory. However, when I went to purchase my 2010 GPR-S in the fall of 2009, I was told by the factory that they had lost their CA DMV retail selling license and I would have to make my purchase directly from one of their independent retailers like The Electric Green Store or Hollywood Electrics.
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Contrast their nhtsa filings with Lightning Rod Motorcycles, who at least submitted a VIN decoding document.
https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/8685
https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/14773
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There's too much instigating going on here and not enough investigating. Back when I put my deposit in for a Strike (in October 2018), I did as much research as I could. I emailed ex-coworkers to ask about the company. I hunted down the elusive LS218 owners to ask them about their bikes and their experience riding them. Everything I heard checked out. Every story that sounded suspicious, or too convenient (my bike is in the shop so I can't show you), ended up not being suspicious at all. I went to the shop. I saw the bike there.
We've built up this idea that the company is a huge scam operation just because they've been quiet online. When in reality, they're too busy building bikes.
You have to realize, I'm just a normal guy who called up a motorcycle company and asked for a tour. And everyone else's tour and test ride has also been guided by the CEO, so I didn't get special treatment. I put in a reservation partly as a test, to see if it was possible for a normal, non-investor, non-racer, average electric motorcycle enthusiast to buy a Lightning, and that's what I'm in the process of doing. And documenting that process for everyone else to see.
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And we're seen them on the street in California, ridden by someone who probably just thought it was cool, not someone anywhere near the factory.
It's a weird bike, sure, but just because there's not a huge number if videos of people riding say Arch motorcycles doesn't mean they're a scam.
-Crissa
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And we're seen them on the street in California, ridden by someone who probably just thought it was cool, not someone anywhere near the factory.
It's a weird bike, sure, but just because there's not a huge number if videos of people riding say Arch motorcycles doesn't mean they're a scam.
-Crissa
I don't think Lightning are an explicit scam -- there are far better ways of scamming money out of people with less work ;) .
They do seem to have the startup malaise / bug / feature (depending on whether you're the startup or its customers :D ) of being very over-optimistic about their capabilities & timelines, and, unfortunately, also being quite bad at communications with the outside world.
That said, they are IMO certainly guilty of making fraudulent claims (https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/performance/) about the LS-218 (calling it the "fastest production motorcycle" when that record was made with a one-off version of the bike, and claiming it has a specific EPA electric range, when in fact the EPA does not test or publish any efficiency/range figures for motorcycles at all, electric or ICE.
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Wavelet quote:I don't think Lightning are an explicit scam -- there are far better ways of scamming money out of people with less work.
Yes I 100% agree.
Richard has had great racing success. I think if a group of investors wanted to start an open class electric motorcycle racing series he would be a great guy to be one of the leaders.
But that's not what we're talking about so we have to address what is here now and what is likely to happen in the future with production motorcycles.
The LS218 was/is a custom bike. People can argue the use of "production" but that seems to be a loose definition that's hard to nail down.
On their website they have an * and state the salt flat run was with a aero pod and high speed gearing so I feel that isn't lying in any way they admit what they used to get that speed. Gates be damned, records by such and such group be damned the bike went real damn fast period.
That doesn't mean a street LS218 will go 218 MPH. The only issue there should be a full disclosure for the real world or even track specs of a street LS218 so a buyer would know what THEY are getting and not what the company can achieve through their racing efforts.
If someone has $40-60k and wants a super fast electric motorcycle Lightning could likely make you one.
But that's not the real issue either. It's the Strike, and in my opinion the results are from someone thinking a group in China was going to be this wonderful godsend.
They believed China could make super cheap batteries and components to make a 150MPH, 20kWh battery, Brembo-Onlins having, CCS charging, 6kw AC charging, liquid cooled, sub 500lbs electric sport bike for $20k.
Not only did they think this could happen they announced that it would happen in March of 2019 but there doesn't seem to be even a single example of THAT bike anywhere. Not even a demo. That is the part that gets me.
I think they thought it could happen but when it clearly wasn't going to happen that way they didn't come out and say we got duped and this China factory can't make a bike of this high quaility that we thought they could.
China can make cheap short range weak powered city bikes like they use in China but if they could produce a world class super bike they'd be making and selling it themselves.
There are videos of the knock markets in China where they sell all the things they make for US companies but for a fraction of the cost because there is no R&D they just steal the product idea and churn them out.
I STILL hope it gets made but I don't see how at this point. The excuses and reasons of tariffs and things are long gone, maybe the virus now? To me they don't need to be making a thousand a week or something like that but they should have 15 or so finished full spec Carbon Strikes at this point if they can make them at all. Lightning was small but the China factory wasn't so no excuse there.
That's my feelings on Lightning at this point yours may differ.
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……...On their website they have an * and state the salt flat run was with a aero pod and high speed gearing so I feel that isn't lying in any way they admit what they used to get that speed. Gates be damned, records by such and such group be damned the bike went real damn fast period.
I don't see the askerisk. I think I found the record on the internet site of http://nebula.wsimg.com/b314ca8f5567116ebfbffbec7755fae8?AccessKeyId=1B489604A3781742F233&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
Isn't there AMA/FIM and everything else is kind of outlaw.
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China produces the parts they use to make our bikes.
So why wouldn't they be able to make the bikes?
Well, because assembly and quality control is not as easy at all. You order assemblies, and you hope that the parts you get back are right. And all I've had manufactured is a few wiring jigs, and even then, half were wired together upside down. *shrug* A bike is soo much more complex.
-Crissa
PS, no star today, but they do use the careful wording of 'potential': https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/performance/
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Just so everybody is clear, the bikes have been designed and built in California. They have a full CNC setup there. All the testing is done before sending the files over to China to get the parts mass-produced in a larger facility. So it's not like they send plans to China without making the parts first.
As far as a 20kWh test bike, they have it. I've seen it. Richard posted a photo of one charging at 28kW. And better yet, the bikes that have been delivered with temporary batteries are being upgraded as we speak!
There is still too much speculation going on here. Why not email the company to ask what they're doing? Get a friend to go take a tour. Have a chat with one of the owners on facebook. There are better ways of figuring out what's going on than guessing.
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Technically he posted a picture of a station charge screen.
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Technically he posted a picture of a station charge screen.
Yeah what happened when people thought they didn't have a running bike? Someone went on a test ride. What happened when people thought they weren't delivering bikes? Someone took delivery of a bike. At what point do we stop doubting them?
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And I assembled my wiring jigs before sending the plans over to China, too.
It's just not so easy to get things done. Those last little bits are always difficult!
-Crissa
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Yeah what happened when people thought they didn't have a running bike? Someone went on a test ride. What happened when people thought they weren't delivering bikes? Someone took delivery of a bike. At what point do we stop doubting them?
I guess when I'm able to see it do all the promised things. I've obviously seen at least one of these bikes up close. I feel is it very poorly constructed and dangerous in many ways. People versed in motorcycles and batteries who saw it also all agreed. It is full of FLAGRANT safety violations. It is also way under-spec for what was promised.
As soon as we saw the bike we admitted that bikes are being delivered. We were wrong and freely admit that. Are they anywhere near the specs that were promised? No. Are they safe? In our, and many other people's opinions, no. I'm willing to bet that the Brammo Empulse we have here will outperform it.
Brandon was skeptical of Energica until he rode one. Bike delivered. We've both been HIGHLY skeptical and critical of the LiveWire until we rode one. Bike delivers. We've both been highly skeptical and critical of Lightning. We rode one. Bike did not deliver.
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I disagreed with the electric danger, M.
-Crissa
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Yeah as was said before, Guido crashed his bike.. carbon fiber everywhere.. even his swing arm broke in half, to paint a picture of how bad the accident was.. and yet the battery did not catch on fire. I get that there are safety precautions when designing a battery (potting like Zero does, or building a 2 ton vault like Energica does) but saying the Strike could be killed with a garden hose is hugely exaggerating.
This is getting way off topic though. Real life actual Lightning owners exist, and we should be excited that there are more electric sportbike options available now! ;D
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Separation of cells is a valid solution to thermal runaway. They don't burn like logs - air gaps decrease rather than increase their fire potential.
It's just different, not just 'less safe'.
-Crissa
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I'll try to post this link like it is on their website (they do reconfigure it often)
https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
Right below the picture is a list of specs. Under the 218 MPH it says "with high speed gearing and fairing" it was a * but now it's gone but same disclaimer. You can also look up the salt flats run on YT and see it going over 213 on the Garmin unit. That's enough for me to credit them with going real damn fast on two wheels powered by electricity. Take from it what you will. To me it was an impressive feat but not fully connected to the street LS218 since it's a different setup.
Sam I really don't want to rain on your happiness man and I hope you get it all and can import it to NZ and make awesome videos with it.
Oh and I did ask for more info and video's of the Strike to Lightning back in April of 19 and got ignored so that opened up my concerns then.
But this guy with the Strike that Morgan and Brandon have been dealing with clearly didn't go into his Strike purchase with the same knowledge and acceptance of what he was getting into as you would be. To me that just wasn't cool. The bike should have been finished and fully speced out before letting a new rider take that bike out, I'm sorry, that's just so backwards and unprofessional, they should be ashamed.
What if that guy was in a wreck and got hurt or killed? If the bike isn't ready it isn't ready. If the guy is pissed and wants his money back because it isn't ready they have to suck it up and give him his money back. But you don't let a half built bike leave the company, for safety as well as the quality reputation.
I hope they make this guy's bike right asap. But they just can't let that happen again.
Sam let us know when they get the bikes up to full specs and out the door for $20k and I'll cheer them on to beat the band because that will be the best deal out there. Until then I have to take a "show me" attitude.
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I feel ya, man. They shouldn't have rushed deliveries. Maybe all the negativity online was putting pressure on them. Maybe the first owner was cool with the temp battery, so Lightning made that offer to some others? Surely they asked this most recent guy if he was ok with that too, otherwise he could have waited.
I'm going to wait a bit on mine, so they have time to sort out whatever issues there are.. but I'm still 100% in ;D No other electric motorcycle feels as good to ride, to me personally, so the cosmetic flaws and other little things don't bother me. I understand that most people won't feel the same, especially not for $20k, but I liked it that much.
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Surely they asked this most recent guy if he was ok with that too, otherwise he could have waited.
The guy we interacted with is a wonderful person but a fresh, green, brand new baby motorcyclist. He doesn't know enough about anything to ask intelligent questions about anything. And that's not picking on the man. I really like him.
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But this guy with the Strike that Morgan and Brandon have been dealing with clearly didn't go into his Strike purchase with the same knowledge and acceptance of what he was getting into as you would be. To me that just wasn't cool. The bike should have been finished and fully speced out before letting a new rider take that bike out, I'm sorry, that's just so backwards and unprofessional, they should be ashamed.
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Some people would disagree, but IMO selling what is in effect a prototype of an aggressive sportbike to a total newbie rider is completely irresponsible.
In the past, I've tried to dissuade potential new riders I knew from starting to ride, if I thought they didn't have what it takes to ride reasonably safely (e.g., sufficient self-discipline to wear basic safety gear, or an ability to concentrate on their immediate surroundings). I also always emphasize the need to start gradually in terms of power/weight of bike (less of an issue over here, since we have graduated licensing).
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Electrics also don't have the skill steepness of shifting, clutch, and even braking is easier. So I'm not sure the power is as much an issue with them as ICE powered bikes.
-Crissa
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Electrics also don't have the skill steepness of shifting, clutch, and even braking is easier. So I'm not sure the power is as much an issue with them as ICE powered bikes.
-Crissa
Strongly disagree.
Grabbing a handful of throttle can and will surprise a newbie, pretty much on any ICE bike >400cc; electrics even more so.
I know of amultiple cases, primarily in the US, of a complete newbie rider crashing a bike on his (it's pretty much always males) very first turn riding the bike out of the dealership after purchase.
Gear/clutch manipulation is far less of an issue IME of watching and helping new riders learn, than getting used to counter-steering and turning while leaning (*).
As for the rest of it:
In what way is braking easier on an electric? If you're referring to regen, not really relevant for braking from speed, and not much different than engine braking on most motorcycles (which have higher-compression engines relative to cars).
There are still two independent brakes on most bikes, EVs or not, which need to be operated in concert for optimal stopping, and they affect the suspension far more markedly than they do on a car.
Yes, ABS makes things easier than they used to be, but the vast majority of ABS-equipped bikes don't have cornering-sensitive ABS (a.k.a. C-ABS), which means grabbing the brakes when leaned over will cause the bike to stand up, changing direction and suspension geometry, and yielding essentially next to no braking while surprising the inexperienced rider.
So again, the turning/leaning issues dominate.
(*) Granted, over here, most drivers do their driving lessons (mandatory with licensed instructor -- we don't have Learner's Permits) & driving test on a manual car, but about half of riders get a motorcycle license before their car license.
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That bike currently doesn't have any mapping. So no watered down Eco mode. It's giving you all it's got all the time. I guess thankfully it's not near the spec full power, for the new rider's sake.
On an electric, throttle control is very important but I agree for me the counter-steering that got me with some oh crap moments when I first started riding.
Where as Lightning isn't responsible for mistakes a new rider might commonly make there are other major safety issues with that bike that could compound a simple low side lay down. If one of those battery cells gets punctured by a conductive object it will go very bad very quickly.
The whole situation has me really shaken for that guy's safety. He needs to take it back and make sure the needed changes are made.
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...And anyone grabbing a handful of throttle would have thrown their car into a ditch, too.
I don't see the argument here. Electrics can be set into Eco, Rain, newbie modes. (Not applicable to the Lightning, that doesn't have that yet... But every other does.)
Braking is easier on the electric because you don't have to shift to mediate your engine braking - regen happens on the same control.
Electrics are just much, much easier for newbies to ride safely.
-Crissa
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That bike currently doesn't have any mapping. So no watered down Eco mode. It's giving you all it's got all the time. I guess thankfully it's not near the spec full power, for the new rider's sake.
On an electric, throttle control is very important but I agree for me the counter-steering that got me with some oh crap moments when I first started riding.
Where as Lightning isn't responsible for mistakes a new rider might commonly make there are other major safety issues with that bike that could compound a simple low side lay down. If one of those battery cells gets punctured by a conductive object it will go very bad very quickly.
The whole situation has me really shaken for that guy's safety. He needs to take it back and make sure the needed changes are made.
Well, if he has a problem that results in an injury, there are plenty of lawyers in the SF Bay Area that will be happy to sue Lightning on his behalf. So many that they advertise on TV all afternoon long. :o
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Crissa I agree it was easier for me to learn on my Zero than it would have been on a gas bike for those reasons but I'm only talking about this Strike and it's owner for now.
Richard, I know but I would rather both parties survive unharmed.
You can cut corners in some businesses but not as a motorcycle company. They will have to do better in the future.
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Crissa I agree it was easier for me to learn on my Zero than it would have been on a gas bike for those reasons but I'm only talking about this Strike and it's owner for now.
Richard, I know but I would rather both parties survive unharmed.
You can cut corners in some businesses but not as a motorcycle company. They will have to do better in the future.
That comment was meant to be a warning to Lightning. Selling what appears to be a pre-production, half-finished, motorcycle to a new rider is not the best idea to do for any motor vehicle company, much less a new startup.
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Yeah I got it that's what I meant by the Lightning half of both parties surviving. And I agree and hope they "tighten up" as we like to say.
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Here is an example of how a startup can cut corners. Below is a photo of my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S. Note that when the chain interfered with the lower left side swing arm brace, the company just cut it off with a hacksaw. If you look closely, you can see the lower half of the brace on the other side and the part that was cut off in front of the support stand. :o
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I found this picture in my computer files of a (the?) Lightning LS-218 that I took at an EV event during the fall of 2012, complete with a titanium swing arm - it says so on the part. ::)
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> Grabbing a handful of throttle can and will surprise a newbie, pretty much on any ICE bike >400cc; electrics even more so...
Grabbing a handful of throttle is a fossil fuel habit, born of weak motors that require spin up before they have power. If you start on electric, you don't have these bad habits.
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Grabbing a handful of throttle is a fossil fuel habit, born of weak motors that require spin up before they have power. If you start on electric, you don't have these bad habits.
Eh. I started on ICE bikes 45 years ago now (my 12th birthday), and I didn't have any problem at all transferring over a few years ago. It's a foolish rider who doesn't familiarize himself with his ride before whacking open the throttle.