ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Nihil on September 14, 2014, 05:44:59 PM
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Hi everybody!
I'v considered purchasing an FX for my supermoto track-days and daily commute for a while now.
Had the opportunity to ride one at the track this past weekend... and it blew my mind!
I have to tell you, this bike is amazing. from the first lap I was faster then on my sumo XR650L, even though the FX had knobby tires!
Was really impressed by the bikes geometry. felt stable, good cornering speed and more then enough power to compete with the 450's on the go-cart track.
Also, the battery life exceeded my expectations, as we rode the bike all day long, to and at the track (40 km commute to the track), and it still had 30% charge left at the end of the day!
very impressive!
However, I was wondering what are my options regarding spare batteries and charging:
I need to ride it to and from the track- 40 km in each direction, plus half a day of 20 minute sessions with 20 minutes between them.
What I had in mind was charging one of the batteries of the 5.7 FX with a quickcharger during these 20 minute breaks.
Or maybe get a third battery that will charge for 40 minutes (session+break) and "juggle" 3 batteries.
Question is:
Is it possible/recommended to charge only one battery?
Will the bike lose power as it does when riding with only one battery?
If anyone has "real-world" experience track-day riding an FX I'd love to hear your take on this.
thank you!
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I will use my FX in the same way (if I get my butt in gear) but I think it will only work if I use my car to carry the bike to the track.
All my addition charger equipment and tools can't be carried with the bike - also a breakdown and no possibility to return is not what I will risk!
I think only one battery works for offroad but not for Supermoto. The power will be limited and you have not enough power at high speed.
If you have the money you can buy the adapter and charger to charge the batteries off board.
I will use the 20min "Kart-Break" to recharge the batteries "in side" the bike. Nice every place has grid access for the tire heaters
The biggest problem I see is the FX will get in motor overheating to soon. I will do some motor modification to try fixing it, but this will be a bigger task! Maybe winter break.
BTW we didn't get a real summer this year and this will additionally slow down my itch to build all I would need!
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Actually the bike did overheat while I tested it. it wasn't that bad, just a bit of "lag" in accelerating in very low speeds (hairpin).
I think I'll wait with the motor upgrade.
I don't intend to ride it with one battery, I want to charge a third battery outside the bike while I use the other two in the bike for 40 minutes (rest+break).
I'm just not sure using a charged battery with an empty one is recommended and will yield the same power.
Maybe I'll have to buy two quickchargers and charge them both outside the bike for 20 minutes?
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When charging out side you need additionally the Adapter 140$/150€per battery! or you can buy a Y-cable ~250$/270€ to use 2 Chargers (let confirm it from your dealer if it works at a FX I never asked for this but think it will be OK)
You are in Europa too?
It will not work like you think.
If the bike is turned on it will check the batteries if the voltage difference is to big (I think it is ~3V!) it will only use the fuller till the difference is fine to parallel the batteries :'(
BTW I don't plan to ride the offroad part much (health problem) - How was your experience to use it in the offroad part?
Do you go for a 2013 or 2014?
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ah, so I guess I must charge both batteries... which means I need two quickchargers..
I'm from Israel. Electric bikes are actually cheaper then ICE bikes since there is no tax on them here! ;D
The offroad part was ok-
We have a short dirt section with two turns (with walls), two ski-jumps (small bumps) and one table.
The bike had no problem with the small bumps, it just felt weird at landing when it suddenly accelerated forward and almost "ran away" from under me :D
The big table jump was not so bad either. just felt a little "heavy" when landing. almost bottomed out the suspension (I landed on the flat part of the table).
Overall- not a problem in my opinion.
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I see your summer is much better than ours. What I know from the News you will have much more problems with other circumstances than weather. Hope it will be save where you stay.
Will be very nice to see how the FX works for you, so maybe we can share some experience. Unfortunately fall starts now and I don't know if I will be able to have some turns on your race-track before it close.
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I have just started running my 2011 X in SuperMoto. Of course I don't have the speed or capacity of your FX's. Same concept though. Right now I am running it with one battery. In the mornings when it is cool it works great. I have had issues with the motor shutting down in the heat of the afternoon. I have to work on a way to keep the motor cool. My long term goal is to get two batteries and swap them out and quick charge the one not being used. Who knows what the future holds for battery technology. Keep us posted on your FX supermoto. Since mine is an older model I can keep up with the 100's and below. The 250's and 450's though are too much on the straightaways.
C
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That's great that you guys are going out and racing your bikes! Electrics are so well suited for supermoto. You should all post pictures and video. The build Im trying is a vintage supermoto / scrambler conversion and I plan to race it too.
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I've only done one Supermoto day so far on mine but in short it was awesome. Inexpensive, lots of track time, relaxed, and everybody from little kids to pros. No other Zeros there that day but several of them have been making regular appearances around here in NorCal.
Re: One battery. Tried it, no good. The power is fine at first but since you get to a much lower SOC by the end of the session, the power tapers off much more quickly that when you have both. It also overheated faster which I think means the battery itself may have thermally limited. I've only ever had the motor temp limit in all other cases. Didn't have the app connected so I don't know for sure. One battery is only good for short dirt loops in my experience.
I guess you have a car coming along with you to support? Otherwise I don't know how you're planning to bring all this gear. You certainly shouldn't strap a battery and chargers on the tail!
My setup: two Honda EU2000i generators, two Delta-Q chargers (sounds like there are better options but I was wrapping it all up in a loan so I went with what Zero had), and the necessary adapters. I charged both batteries while I was on track which was plenty to get them full. I drained about half the charge in the 20min session, riding hard.
Motor temp limit was reached each session in the last few minutes. My going easier on the throttle I was able to keep it from going completely flaccid. I've heard some have filled (partially or totally??) their motor with ATF which helps the heat get out to the finned exterior, and reportedly completely cured motor overheating. I'm very interested in trying that but I'd really like to hear what others have done to avoid causing problems. At my Supermoto event I had two computer case fans I'd rigged up to run off my 12V accessory port and just laid them on the motor between sessions. I really want to solve the motor overheating for highway (overheats after ~8mi) and extended dirt hill climbs (thousands of feet continuous climbing does it.)
I've got the upgraded rear shock and the Lindemann Engineering-rebuilt front forks which feel significantly better on the street but the real test will be taking them off-road for the first time this Saturday!
Enjoy! I will try to track down some Supermoto photos...
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Only found one, but here's me lining up a torquey double-pass into turn 1. :o
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ATF ? what is ATF ?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid)
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Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Also, what BSDThw said.
It's light viscosity and reasonably temp tolerant. Not sure if there may be something else that would be good. 230F+ is a little on the high end for standard ATF. Synthetic might be a good idea.
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It seems to me that the Zeros have overheating issues often and its to be expected since that motor is AIR-COOLED yet behind a Big square battery that blocks air flow and heats up with use. So ATF or not that heat should be shed and tough the ATF is a great idea it only transfers heat within the motor. Here's the issue that I see with oil cooling. Oil is twice as thermally conductive as air but still closer to an insulator in terms of heat transfer ( its like 60x less conductive than aluminum ). Now back to the motor case, if the heat is shed from the windings to the oil to the aluminum case that's great, but unless there is something to snatch the heat off that case and fast it'll be saturated. What to do now! Since your not riding in the rain and showering the bike with oil is a bad idea your left with that lovely free air flow that's smashing into the brick of batteries (s, sr, and ds models) or the Fx controller and whatever they wedged behind it. Long story short without ducting or a water jacket and radiator (mounted at the front of the bike) then that motor is stuck in a sauna.
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I wonder if a liquid cooling kit like this one could be adapted...
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=AN8SINGLECIRCUIT (http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=AN8SINGLECIRCUIT)
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Only with the oil and a few fittings that would need drilling and tapping. I don't know how or if the fluid movement in the motor would interact with magnetic flux if at all. You could do a few other things with water cooling too without opening up or drilling your motor.
One other thing in my last post I said only if you mount the radiator in the front of the bike but in truth you could mount it at the rear if the air was routed to the back. In that case it might be simpler to route some tubes for air flow to the motor. By the way that's the kind of stuff that I do to ICE bikes so if your in the New England/New York area or really on the east coast I'd be happy to troubleshoot any non-electronic issues that your facing with your electric motos. Particularly lightening, cooling or custom body or chassis mods.
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Since this thread seems to be completely hijacked already, let me try to dispel a little bit of confusion regarding air vs. liquid cooling.
First, many people believe a liquid-cooling system can dump more heat than an air-cooled system. But think about it -- ultimately, either system dumps the heat into the airstream. Liquid-cooling systems just do it at the radiator, rather than right at the heat source.
It's also commonly believed that air-cooled systems are more vulnerable than liquid-cooling systems to high ambient temperature conditions, but that's not always true. Light airplane pilots can tell you that often, air-cooled engines perform better in high temperatures than liquid-cooled engines.
In reality, the primary advantage of liquid-cooling systems is that you can bring the heat to the airstream, rather than the other way around. It's easy to design a radiator of whatever size necessary, mount it in an ideal place in the airstream, and pump the heat there using the liquid coolant. This can be a pretty considerable advantage.
A second main advantage of liquid cooling is the ability to thermostat the cooling system. That helps the motor get up to temperature faster, since you're not cooling it until it needs it. That's not especially useful for an electric motor, which doesn't have tight mechanical clearances that perform best when they're kept close to their ideal operating temperature (think sealing a combustion chamber on an ICE).
Of course, the downside of liquid cooling is extra weight, complexity and more failure points. Sometimes the design compromise makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously, Brammo went one way, Zero went another. Personally, I think the Zero design meets the needs of the vehicle at a lower cost, lower weight, and lower failure rate.
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There is no confusion I feel the same way in regards to electrical system cooling but the Zeros could use some air flow to the motor like I said.
And the Zeros seem to be the bikes that are overheating. (the enertias did overheat too due to the same lack of air flow)In Of course, the downside of liquid cooling is extra weight, complexity and more failure points. Sometimes the design compromise makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously, Brammo went one way, Zero went another. Personally, I think the Zero design meets the needs of the vehicle at a lower cost, lower weight, and lower failure rate.
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...the Zeros could use some air flow to the motor like I said.
That's certainly true if you're going to race one. The cooling on my SR is marginal for street use -- I haven't had it reduce power on me yet, but I have made the light blink by driving in excess of 75 mph on the freeway on hot San Diego days.
I wish the cooling was better on my bike -- it would only take some ductwork in the existing plastic bodywork pieces to provide much better airflow. But for my uses, which don't include racing, it's adequate as is. And I suspect that unless you're going to be racing one VERY hard, improved airflow over/through the motor would be adequate without going to a water jacket and giant radiator.
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Just stumbled on a youtube video where the racer seems to have done that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRQoei4pK8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRQoei4pK8)
Here are some screenshots. There seems to be a fan at the intake, but I wonder if that's necessary.
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For dry condtions above 15mph or so, I wonder if replacing the FX skid plate with a longer/wider one spaced 1/4" or so off the frame bottom and curving up around the rear motor fins to just below the swingarm crossmember might help. That front heat sink traps and channels a lot of air, it would be cool to shoot it up along the back of the motor - and maybe the front too, if some holes were drilled in the right places.
Ray
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Just stumbled on a youtube video where the racer seems to have done that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRQoei4pK8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRQoei4pK8)
Here are some screenshots. There seems to be a fan at the intake, but I wonder if that's necessary.
Cool (HaHa cool cooling I wasn't even trying) ;) the video shows it at around 1:00 but that tube is only pointing at the top couple inches of the fins. Not what I meant but that is the very basic concept. The fan looks like a "vortex" intake thingamajig that they put on auto intakes to swirl the air going in the motor. Its not likely of use. Ill gladly build a duct for free for one person that emails me the diameter of the motor at the top and bottom of the fins. Or If your in of around New England.
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That looks a lot like what Zero did with their 2011 models to cool the motor, except they pulled the air from behind the rear of the seat (through a hole in the rear fairing) and used a fan to force the air into the open motor to help keep it cool.
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I seriously doubt that setup cools anything besides the top fins and the fan is an obstruction to the natural air flow.