ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gstrub on July 31, 2019, 07:25:00 AM
-
It’s coming up on 600mi. I don’t want to tow (again) to dealer if not necessary (350mi each direction). What can I do on my own, if I need to do anything, for this recommended visit?
-
Standard 600 mile service running you about $500 at your dealer. Oil and filter change, removing debris from the manufacturing process from your engine. Valve lash check. Chain tension adjustment and cleaning. No, but really:
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2020/2020-Zero-Owners-Manual-SRF.pdf
Sections 6.3-6.6
-
A competent motorcycle mechanic can do all on that list Except commissioning and timing the drive motor, which I have been told is important, requiring specific tools and training. I am anxious to learn more about this.
-
I wonder if the dealers would be willing to perform just the commissioning and timing of the drive motor.
I most certainly can do the rest of the 600 mi maintenance items.
Can imagine their response: No, for warranty reasons we have to perform all the steps (and charge a lot to do it). Bummer!
-
1. Check brake fluid levels. Add brake fluid as necessary
2.Rear Brake: Check operation, and for fluid leakage. Replace brake pads if necessary.
3. Front Brake: Check operation, and for fluid leakage. Replace brake pads if necessary.
6. Wheel Bearings: Check bearings for smooth operation. Replace if necessary.
7. Drive Belt: Check belt tension. Inspect belt for signs of damage or cracking. Replace belt: every 24k miles.
9. Steering Bearings: check for looseness.
11. Front brake lever pivot shaft: Apply silicone grease lightly. Check operation. Service/rebuild if necessary.
16. Kickstand Switch: check operations and replace if necessary.
17. Drive Motor: commissioning and timing.
-
I was just quoted $271 for this initial service.
-
Do not skip on motor commissioning and timing. It should be no-cost for the warranty period of the vehicle as it requires dealer tools and is required for maintaining warranty. The process takes about 20 minutes, the bike is lifted so the drive wheel is off the ground and they hook up a laptop and play video games with the throttle for 5 minutes until the laptop software is happy and the new settings are written out to the motor controller.... or that's the way it was for 2016 DSR anyhow. I'm not 100% sure for SR/F but if you would be kind enough to insist on observing the commissioning process you could confirm or deny that for us, would really be sweet!
-
Here is the process on Cypher II. Commission the encoder, then time the motor electronically. I'm going to try to shadow our tech while he does it on our SR/F and see how much it differs.
-
And once calibrated, do you know what causes it to get out of wack with use?
You'd think this being all electronics it would be consistent for a long time and not drift out of calibration eventually, unless there is a part that wears out and compensation to it needs to be made regularly.
Just curious what is going on in there.
-
And once calibrated, do you know what causes it to get out of wack with use?
You'd think this being all electronics it would be consistent for a long time and not drift out of calibration eventually, unless there is a part that wears out and compensation to it needs to be made regularly.
Just curious what is going on in there.
Me too. ???
-
And once calibrated, do you know what causes it to get out of wack with use?...
Permanent magnets are not all identical (that is much more expensive material science and manufacturing yields), and can change properties when heat cycled. Some change is expected in the first 600mi and then none or very little change thereafter. The periodic commissioning can highlight problems like dirt and broken or shifted encoder magnets.
-
Does anyone know what the dealer should charge just for motor commissinoing? Really everything else in the 600 miles service I can do myself but need dealer to do just this. I wanted a general idea before I called him to see if they are being fair.
-
Does anyone know what the dealer should charge just for motor commissinoing? Really everything else in the 600 miles service I can do myself but need dealer to do just this. I wanted a general idea before I called him to see if they are being fair.
Most dealers in my area charge a minimum 1 hour of labor to do just about anything. I was charged 1.75 hours for the 600-mile service on my 2018 S, which included motor commissioning. I estimate that about 3/4 hour was the labor to just perform a walk-around inspection. So I would think 1 hour of labor, times your local labor rate ($150 an hour around here), should be about right for the motor commissioning. ???
-
On page 6.5, the manual states "Commissioning and Timing" and we have been concentrated on the Commissioning here.
What about Timing?
Is that a separate procedure we should ask for or is that part of Commissioning?
Anybody knows?
I setup my dealer appointment for the week after next as I will be out of town next week and only requested commissioning. They set it up so I can wait there which shouldn't be too bad.
Hate those "drop it off and come back later or tomorrow".
-
On page 6.5, the manual states "Commissioning and Timing" and we have been concentrated on the Commissioning here.
What about Timing?
Is that a separate procedure we should ask for or is that part of Commissioning?
Anybody knows?
I setup my dealer appointment for the week after next as I will be out of town next week and only requested commissioning. They set it up so I can wait there which shouldn't be too bad.
Hate those "drop it off and come back later or tomorrow".
My understanding of it is, "Commission the encoder, then time the motor electronically."
Commissioning the encoder is setting the proper voltage (~4.3VDC) for the gap in position sensor. Then timing the phasing to the motor so the sine waves are in sync for controller output and motor.
-
Thank you, Curtis!
If this bike weren't so expensive I would take it apart and play electronic technician with it: Hook up my scope to it and see what I can hack and discover.
But I am holding that urge back mostly because of the lack of schematics and circuit's information. (Don't want to void the warranty either)
Currently limiting my tinkering to mechanical things like replacing the handlebar, sidekick extender, testing windshields, fixing the tank lid gap, fine-tuning belt tracking & tension, adding a parking brake, etc.
-
Commissioning the encoder is setting the proper voltage (~4.3VDC) for the gap in position sensor. Then timing the phasing to the motor so the sine waves are in sync for controller output and motor.
Not a sinewave. I looked at the signal on a scope from the motor controller while the motor was running (wheel off the ground). It's PWM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation), more of a squarewave.
The reason I checked it was because I have heard others here call it a sinewave and that didn't sound right to me, so I checked for myself. However, that was on my SR, but there is not reason to expect a different waveshape on the SR/F.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
So wait a minute...I was constantly sold on the "zero" maintenance aspect of these bikes...and now it turns out you have to get the motor commissioned all the time? My regular services for my ICE bikes and slingshot were always around $175...and now I am looking at still spending that on this zero that is way less capable? That is a bummer.
-
[...] and now it turns out you have to get the motor commissioned all the time? My regular services for my ICE bikes and slingshot were always around $175...and now I am looking at still spending that on this zero that is way less capable? That is a bummer.
A short while-you-wait service every 8K miles, skipped by many without apparent repercussion, is not "all the time".
You and others choose to stay away from EVs until they can do a superset of what ICE bikes do. Have fun with that! Yawn.
-
You do realize I have an SR/F right? And every 8k miles is about when I service my ICE bikes as well...you aren't very bright.
-
You do realize I have an SR/F right? And every 8k miles is about when I service my ICE bikes as well...you aren't very bright.
Sell it.
-
So wait a minute...I was constantly sold on the "zero" maintenance aspect of these bikes...and now it turns out you have to get the motor commissioned all the time? My regular services for my ICE bikes and slingshot were always around $175...and now I am looking at still spending that on this zero that is way less capable? That is a bummer.
There is some maintenance, just a lot less than on an ICE bike.
I have never had the motor re-commissioned since I owned either of my Zero bikes. Both have over 7,500 miles with no issues. Only a dealer can do it, and the Zero dealer here in Reno doesn't even know how to do it! At least not yet. They are kinda new to Zero and the one mechanic they had who was trained on Zeros quit about two months ago.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
But the cost is similar...I don't care if it is less maintenance if the price is the same. I also would be concerned about the warranty being voided if the commissioning isn't accomplished.
-
But the cost is similar...I don't care if it is less maintenance if the price is the same. I also would be concerned about the warranty being voided if the commissioning isn't accomplished.
I don't think it matters here in the USA. They would have to prove the lack of the maintenance caused your warranty issue and that is very unlikely to happen.
Besides, I think I heard somewhere (can anybody here verify?) if there is a maintenance issue that the owners cannot do (such as the motor commissioning) for them to void the warranty, the shop must offer the service for free. And we know that is not going to happen.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Yesterday I had the brake fluid and coolant replaced in my BMW R1200RS. Those two service items cost $342. In 1500 miles I will need the 24K mile service. I bet that will set me back around $800. So I have no complaints about the cost of servicing my Zero, every 8K miles or so. It is a lot cheaper than servicing an ICE motorcycle of similar performance.
-
Yesterday I had the brake fluid and coolant replaced in my BMW R1200RS. Those two service items cost $342. In 1500 miles I will need the 24K mile service. I bet that will set me back around $800. So I have no complaints about the cost of servicing my Zero, every 8K miles or so. It is a lot cheaper than servicing an ICE motorcycle of similar performance.
That is a terrible comparison, an SR/F doesn't really compare with top of the line motorcycles...besides in price. I think a more fitting comparison would be the 2019 Yamaha MT-09. Similar performance (actually better 0-60 with the MT-09) and the cost is under 9k. That gives you over 10k money saved up to spend on maintenance for probably over a decade before you even reach the price of the SR/F. You can do the oil changes yourself every 5k miles for under $30 and save the big maintenance for the shop.
-
Yesterday I had the brake fluid and coolant replaced in my BMW R1200RS. Those two service items cost $342. In 1500 miles I will need the 24K mile service. I bet that will set me back around $800. So I have no complaints about the cost of servicing my Zero, every 8K miles or so. It is a lot cheaper than servicing an ICE motorcycle of similar performance.
That is a terrible comparison, an SR/F doesn't really compare with top of the line motorcycles...besides in price. I think a more fitting comparison would be the 2019 Yamaha MT-09. Similar performance (actually better 0-60 with the MT-09) and the cost is under 9k. That gives you over 10k money saved up to spend on maintenance for probably over a decade before you even reach the price of the SR/F. You can do the oil changes yourself every 5k miles for under $30 and save the big maintenance for the shop.
Well that is the only comparison that I had as I perform the servicing myself on all of my other motorcycles. I was just trying to make a point regarding maintenance costs between electric and ICE motorcycles when performed at a dealership. Besides, both the insurance premium and the yearly DMV registration cost more for my Zero than my BMW. So it is hard to perform an accurate comparison between a particular ICE model, of which there are a great many to pick from, with a Zero, or other electric motorcycle, of which there are just a few to compare with.
-
I'm more than a little skeptical that anyone would buy an SR/F to save money :)
-
I'm more than a little skeptical that anyone would buy an SR/F to save money :)
If they bought a SR/F instead of LiveWire, they saved quite a bit! :)
-Don- Auburn, NV
-
I'm more than a little skeptical that anyone would buy an SR/F to save money :)
Excellent point! I've bought my two electric bikes because they are fun, not because they are practical. I like the fact that they don't need as much service, but that's not the deciding factor for me (or most of us I would assume).
Steve
-
I'm more than a little skeptical that anyone would buy an SR/F to save money :)
If they bought a SR/F instead of LiveWire, they saved quite a bit! :)
-Don- Auburn, NV
ok....then why do people insist on mentioning cost savings vs an ICE bike? Why does the argument always change when facts are brought into play?
People talk about performance, and then when performance numbers are put side by side an ICE bike...suddenly performance doesn't matter
Maintenance is brought up, but then it costs just as much as an ICE bike...suddenly maintenance costs don't matter.
Seriously, EV owners sound like flat earthers to me at this point.
-
I'm more than a little skeptical that anyone would buy an SR/F to save money :)
If they bought a SR/F instead of LiveWire, they saved quite a bit! :)
-Don- Auburn, NV
ok....then why do people insist on mentioning cost savings vs an ICE bike? Why does the argument always change when facts are brought into play?
People talk about performance, and then when performance numbers are put side by side an ICE bike...suddenly performance doesn't matter
Maintenance is brought up, but then it costs just as much as an ICE bike...suddenly maintenance costs don't matter.
Seriously, EV owners sound like flat earthers to me at this point.
I can't speed for all "people", but the ongoing costs for maintenance are lower, and I don't have to bring the bike the shop as often. I don't care if was cheaper to start with, I just wanted one. I firmly believe the earth to be round.
I bought a Clarity Hybrid to avoid going to the gas station. With our electric rates (northeast), it does not save me a bunch of money at this point (I don't care, I just like to plug it in).
My two cents...
Steve
-
For me, I liked the look of the SR/F, it's a blast to ride and probably in the upper quarter of motorcycle models for performance, I don't get roasted alive in urban traffic, I'm not a noise-polluting asshole, I'm funding the advancement of renewal energy tech, and I'm not contributing to bad air quality in Chicago (+ we can opt for the electricity we use to be fed into the grid via the wind farms near here). It's nice that complete refueling here is about 70¢ vs $25 that my last ICE bike needed for the same range, but there are tons of other modes of transportation that would be more cost effective. Maintenance is probably a wash compared to my last ICE bike. If I straight-up wanted to optimize for costs, I would buy a train/bus ticket, which is way cheaper than any bike, ICE or BEV.
-
Electric motorcycles and EVs in general pencil out as good investments for fleet vehicles, where the duty cycle is very high. Think of delivery trucks or security patrol vehicles.
For private owners, the equivalent is the high-mileage commuter.
If you want to be snarky about the price point to feature set not matching traditional gas bikes, understand that you're paying for a less expensive motorcycle with an extremely expensive battery, once that costs about $6000. The OEM has to pay the batter manufacturer, and QA and test the battery so it will last a long time with an owner. That costs a lot of money.
The cost savings for both is that if you crank out the miles, the savings per 10,000 miles is now substantial enough that by about 60-70k miles, you've avoided paying the cost of the bike again in fuel and servicing. And what you're amortizing is the cost of the battery.
People buy EVs for all sorts of motivations that don't have to be good, but buying them for cost savings has an actual spreadsheet analysis you can do.
Usually, you can mix the reasons of money in with "less work and grease in the garage" which is a little more along the lines of "more smiles per mile" kind of rationale.
-
I did a lot of spreadsheeting before I bought my 2014 SR, and I couldn't really justify the purchase price unless I planned on running the bike up into the 60,000 mile neighborhood or beyond...which I DO plan on doing, and I'm getting close to at 48,000. And that was to justify buying the bike by putting fewer miles on my car -- comparing to an ICE motorcycle, it becomes pretty much impossible to make a purely economic rationale for an electric motorcycle. The purchase prices are just too far apart, and the running costs too close together.
Economics isn't what made up my mind. What made up my mind was the test ride. It's been a long time since I had so much fun on a bike. Also, I was willing (and even wanted) to be an early adopter for this technology, to help bring economies of scale to the industry. Some people have to step up and bring the manufacturers up to the scale where they can bring the prices down comparable to ICE machines.
48,000 miles have done nothing to change my position. I've considered springing for a shiny SR/F, or maybe an EsseEsse, but I just can't bring myself to do it. The old girl has worked hard for me, and I know she's got at least another 20,000 in her.
-
Ongoing costs of EV and electric motorcycle ownership are much lower than those of gasoline powered vehicles.
Firstly and most obviously you never have to pay for gasoline. It costs me about $1.50 to "fill" my SR/F from empty after going about 100 miles. At $2.30 per gallon a gas bike would need to get just over 150mpg to match that cost.
Every machine requires maintenance. Electric motorcycles are no exception. All the moving bits can wear on any motorcycle. there are far fewer moving bits on an electric. The Zero will never require a valve adjustment or oil change but all other motorcycle parts, brake fluid for instance, require the same regular maintenance.
The 600 mile motor adjusting thing. That isa cost gas bikes don't have but there isn't a single full size bike I've seen that doesn't require a more involved 600 mile (or equivalent) service and many miles of break-in at reduced power levels. Most people ignore the break-in period for gas bikes and it seems to me quite a few people skip the electric motor adjustment.
Nevertheless it is a great idea to have a pro at your dealer look over the bike after that first few hundred miles.Things shake loose and this bike is newer to you than it is to the mechanic. Most home "mechanics" also tend to overlook things like steering bearings that a dealer will (hopefully) check.
TLDR: Yes, cheaper to maintain. Obviously.
-
Cheaper to maintain "obviously" if you keep the bike for close to 100,000 miles. This bikes most direct competitor is the MT-09...which is 10k less. 100k miles of fuel on the MT-09 at 50mpg and $2.30 a gallon will cost you $4,600 and you can do most of the maintenance yourself for under $50 a service interval. You cannot commission a Zero SR/F motor yourself, which seems to run about $175 an interval...adding up to over $2,000 over the course of 100,000 miles.
I'm sure the MT-09 has some high mileage expensive maintenance costs...but you are still starting out 10k ahead.
I would love to compare the SR/F to a top quality motorcycle, but that just doesn't make any sense. The fit and finish of this bike are subpar. I have panel gaps all over my SR/F, great looking bike...but the quality isn't there.
-
Gas prices in my area are around $4 a gallon. :(
-
Gas prices in my area are around $4 a gallon. :(
We've got the worse case scenario, $2.30 a gallon for gas, and electric at $0.19/KWH...
I still love my SR/F :)
Steve
-
I am paying $ 0.22376 per kWh, with electric power increases having been submitted to the PUC each year for the next three years. >:(
-
I am paying $ 0.22376 per kWh, with electric power increases having been submitted to the PUC each year for the next three years. >:(
Are you aware of this? (https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page)
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
I am paying $ 0.22376 per kWh, with electric power increases having been submitted to the PUC each year for the next three years. >:(
Are you aware of this? (https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page)
-Don- Auburn, CA
What I am more concerned about is Pacific, Graft and Explosion's plan to cut power to large areas of their grid should they believe that extreme fire conditions are occurring in order to reduce their fire starting liability claims. Once PG&E shuts down their electrical grid because it might cause a fire during dry and windy weather conditions it will take them days before they turn it back on even if there was no damage to the system as they will have to inspect hundreds of poles and wires before re-energizing the grid. If that happens it is going to be a real disaster, especially for large cities. I can't imagine what San Francisco would be like without electricity for a week. Probably something like a Mad Max movie. :o
And in the meantime, your electric vehicle will be parked and your computer will be blank, waiting for the power to return. :(
-
And in the meantime, your electric vehicle will be parked and your computer will be blank, waiting for the power to return. :(
Not mine. I will charge my Zero's with my RV generator just as I have done many times before at around 3.5 KW.
And I will still be using my computer and watching TV, getting on the air with my ham radio stuff, etc.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
And in the meantime, your electric vehicle will be parked and your computer will be blank, waiting for the power to return. :(
Not mine. I will charge my Zero's with my RV generator just as I have done many times before at around 3.5 KW.
And I will still be using my computer and watching TV, getting on the air with my ham radio stuff, etc.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Oh, you are one of those personal air polluters that the news media warns us about. ;)
-
Oh, you are one of those personal air polluters that the news media warns us about. ;)
Not always, at least 95% of my driving/riding is electric. Too bad not everybody can do that well.
BTW, this coming Tuesday I will be in Mountain View. If the SS9 there has a sold sign on it after that, or is no longer there, you will probably know why. If it sells before then, I can order one. Or at least look at the other Energicas there.
And BTW, that trip will be by battery as well, but in my Tesla M3.
So I pollute less than most people, by far. But I do have to give my many ICE vehicles some exercise once in a while before the gasoline gets too old.
In fact, it's about time for me to run my RV generator. They like to be ran a lot or they start giving serious problems. The guts of them need to stay dry and running them as often as possible takes care of that.
FWIW, I hope to replace my RV with an ERV someday, but nobody makes a decent one yet.
Elon Musk, are you reading this? :)
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Good luck next Tuesday. My guess is that the blue SS-9 will be waiting for you. :)
-
Good luck next Tuesday. My guess is that the blue SS-9 will be waiting for you. :)
Even if I buy it, it most likely will be a while before it ends up in Auburn. From there, I will ride it to Reno to show off to my riding buddies. It will probably be my main bike to ride between Auburn and Reno, as there are several CCS chargers on the way (as well as J1772, if I want to take a much longer lunch break!).
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Good luck next Tuesday. My guess is that the blue SS-9 will be waiting for you. :)
Even if I buy it, it most likely will be a while before it ends up in Auburn. From there, I will ride it to Reno to show off to my riding buddies. It will probably be my main bike to ride between Auburn and Reno, as there are several CCS chargers on the way (as well as J1772, if I want to take a much longer lunch break!).
-Don- Auburn, CA
Are the ccs chargers from Electrify America?
-
So to circle back:)
Towing my bike to the closest dealer will cost me about $200 and 2 days. If I skip the 600mi service, what is the risk? Warranty? I literally just had the bike there at 400 miles for a repair.
-
Are the ccs chargers from Electrify America?
The ones from Walmart are.
Plugshare (https://www.plugshare.com/) can show the brand used as well as the type of charger. Use the "hamburger" on the upper left corner.
But even the HD shop has CCS and it is Chargepoint. I just looked at the CCS charger at Rocklin HD shop the other day:
-
I had commissioning and timing done at 1449 miles. Dealer made a slight adjustment.
-
guess I am confused, why does this commissioning need to be done?
-
guess I am confused, why does this commissioning need to be done?
The motor does NOT run from DC, but from PWM. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation) The motor can get out of sync form the pulses as the motor ages. I assume usually not by much, but should at least be checked once in a while, perhaps the greatest changes are just after being built, just like with an ICE bike. Nothing is perfect, everything changes a little.
There are three wires from the motor controller to the motor, each 120° out of phase. One rotation makes the full 360°. If the timing to the motor is the slightest bit off, efficiency can decrease a lot. If it gets way out, even worse things can happen, such as losing control of the throttle.
The safe way is to have it done. However, many have gone many thousands of miles with no issues without it being done. So it could depend on luck.
From what I have heard from others here, is that a total loss of regen in the eco mode can be the very first symptom of a very serious problem. At that point, do NOT even ride the bike to the dealer. Have it towed. It can lose all control to the point that even the kill switch will not work. And you have no clutch. You will have to grab the key to shut the bike down.
So don't you think it's best to avoid it getting to that point where it will have to be towed? Simply have it checked once in a while. Especially if it has never been done. I have around 7,000 miles on my SR. It's never been done. But it will get done in a couple of weeks from now. I already made an appointment at the nearest dealer to here.
-Don- Auburn, CA