ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Rangerx52 on December 15, 2019, 08:50:11 AM
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I bought a showroom SR 2 months ago, had 1k km on it. I love it, its a blast. I use it for my daily driver.
I drove to work this morning, and had really heavy rain. Got to work, plugged it in. Went to the bike when I was done, and the dash was flashing. The whole thing. not one light, all of it.
I unplugged the bike, turned the key, and the flashing went away. I went to move, and the bike seemed to be OK, I did notice that when accelerating from a stop, there would be a momentary hesitation sometimes, where the bike almost seemed to hop back a bit before moving forward. I got out onto the highway, everything seemed ok (it was lightly raining), and all of a sudden I lost all power to the motor- no throttle response.
I got to the shoulder, and tried turning off and on a few times. No go, red triangle flashing intermittently, green ring flashing on and off. It did go solid a few times, and when I hit the throttle, I could hear the field coils pulsing, but no movement at all. To me, seemed like the throttle was not getting a full signal.
Bike currently dead. turns on, doesnt move.
Any thoughts? seen this before?
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There's no pattern to the flashing? The manual has a series of codes for base level errors.
-Crissa
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Sorry to hear that. Not good!!
If the entire display is flashing it might be a symptom of a bad charger. We've seen that a couple times.
https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6034.0
But since it was so wet, maybe water got into a connector. I'd try unplugging as many connectors as possible and spraying contact cleaner in each.
On the other hand, I've ridden my FX a few times in pouring rain splashing through puddles, so the construction seems good.
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Let it dry - i had such problem with early models, they disappeared after drying.
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So that does narrow it down a bit.
Its dry out this morning, and the bike works. i havent taken it for a test ride, but t runs through the pretrip this time and lets the bike move. And the flashing dash, now i know its a charger fault- that makes a lot of sense since the bike was being heavily rained on, maybe it saw a ground fault somewhere (it was charging on a GFCI outlet, but maybe something on a different circuit).
i THINK maybe i got water into the switches for the killswitch and kickstand, and some into the throttle. Does the 16 use a variable resistance magura? is water getting into the throttle been an issue before?
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I had such problems after heavy rains or washing the bike with water. Early models had a so-so water resistance. You might ask a dealer what easy fixes are possible or google zero unofficial manual and see if there are things there
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Frigging seriously?
I started hunting for water permeable connections that could be causing issues. I found damn near all of them. Open contacts, exposed circuits, pooled water everywhere. There is -NO- water protection i can find on this thing. Im going to have to spend the next few days waterproofing everything before id feel safe bringing it back outside.
Unreal.
And whoever designed the throttle spring assembly, can burn in the darkest pit of hell.
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If you do this, please take pictures and share them in the unofficial zeo manual - not related to zero, will help community (and shame the designer).
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I wonder if the later years were assembled any better.
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Early models had a so-so water resistance.
Which years are considered "early models"?
-Don- OPCNM, AZ
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I had this with a 2012 and a 2013 model. Never an issue with the 2017 FXS
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I had this with a 2012 and a 2013 model. Never an issue with the 2017 FXS
Someone told me that had an '18 or '19 FX submerged in the water up to the handlebars when of road, with no issue. So maybe they're better water proofed (the fx platform) or maybe being a newer year.
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The issue with 2012-2013 models was that the BMS was inadequately potted. For that, there was a recall and everyone's BMS eventually was replaced, including mine.
You seem to have a much milder problem, in my experience. The bike may protectively disable riding when there is a detected ground isolation problem.
One source of this problem that few expect and is not too serious is moisture reaching the signal pins of the Accessory Charging Port. Usually the rubber boot covers this, but you have a demo model and it's unclear to me whether that presents a risk, but anything is possible.
One way to test whether this is why the bike won't move is to try pushing the bike with your feet while seated and see if while moving, it allows you to use the throttle to keep going. That is a sure sign that the cutout is self-induced and probably just needs a dry-out period.
I wrote up an unofficial manual entry here based on this, but there are a number of failure modes on this page worth checking for:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Common_Problems#Loss_of_Power_to_Motor (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Common_Problems#Loss_of_Power_to_Motor)
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I had this with a 2012 and a 2013 model. Never an issue with the 2017 FXS
Someone told me that had an '18 or '19 FX submerged in the water up to the handlebars when of road, with no issue. So maybe they're better water proofed (the fx platform) or maybe being a newer year.
I ride Weather or not (year-round commute of 55mls/day) so have ridden in many rain events in the past 2.5 years of ownership (2016 DSR) & knock on wood..... no issues yet.
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I have been poured upon (coming back from CMSP class notably) with no reaction ^-^
There's always a chance of water intrusion into any device or bike in the rain. Eventually even cars take on water!
-Crissa
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Yeah I cant see it being water at this point either. I cant find any water in anything beyond the handle clusters, I cant see anything actually wrong that I feel comfortable pulling apart. I tried the Bms resets, it did nothing.
So I have a completely dead bike now that wont ride, charge, or even download logs. And its everyone's winter break right now, so all the local shops and even zero HQ is closed. Figures.
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There are plenty of places for moisture and dirt to get trapped that would cause a ground isolation fault.
They’re not likely for most owners, but they are possible. The point is to figure out where the fault is.
The shops and Zero will open shortly. You’ll live waiting for them to open.
Have you checked for basic responses from the BMS via the front panel? It’ll at least tell you the battery state.
You can also check the DC-DC converter connector for dirt or a disconnection on the left side of the bike behind the frame spar in front of the frame tube. That connector is vulnerable to moisture and dirt if the grease isn’t fully applied. Honestly that should be a maintenance item.
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I ride every commute, in all weather, on my FXS. Maybe.... 40+ times in visibility-reducing hard rain. The FXS seems to actually behave better in the rain, and after, than my other Dual-Sports.
I have a nice SAFF-20 fan for after a wet ride, and I usually pat it down after as well.
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I have a chicken-coop radiant heater I use for our bikes. No light, just radiant warmth.
-Crissa
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I have a chicken-coop radiant heater I use for our bikes. No light, just radiant warmth.
-Crissa
Reminds me of a fix I did for a small commercial hot water boiler (heater) thats located outdoors.
It would notoriously fail the next day after a rain event.
Steps were taken to insure no water was infiltrating but the trips persisted until a low wattage heater was installed in the control compartment.
The heat kepted condensate from being an issue on the electronics.
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It rains a LOT where I am and my 2016 SR hasn't had any issues. Only lots of warnings that are solved by a 48 hour dry out period indoors. I have a strong feeling it would go through water almost up to the headlight. That being said I tape over my front battery BMS observation cover as the plug is not water tight when going through known moisture, and ensure there is plenty of dielectric grease in the factory locations. It did stop for 0.5 second after going through some "big sustained puddles".
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I would just grab the logs and let the bike tell you what the fault was, in my experience all of the log lines are blissfully informative on issues.
I have had water issues on my '15 SR, but it was purely in the throttle, which is an off-the-shelf part and not really Zero's fault, but definitely did suck >:(
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And heres an update.
Yes, water killed it.
I just got a response from the shop. Water was found in the controller plug, and the controller is dead.
Water killed my SR.
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How would water have gotten in there?
-Crissa
(Who lives where it is very wet)
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I have absolutely no idea. Isnt the controller under the seat? I bought this bike because i was sick of pulling apart my last bikes to keep them working. And here i am, i changed the handlebar, with another stock handlebar- havent screwed with or messed with anything else, and its dead anyway. I havent unplugged anything, i havent shifted or adjusted anything, i havent washed it (i havent owned it long enough to even WARRANT a washing), nothing.
As for living somewhere wet, i live in vancouver. Pretty sure vancouver is about as wet as it gets, without being underwater. Even the dealership says water isnt an issue for these bikes. then followed it up with a, "well it killed yours though" essentially. Cool. Glad i could be the one in a million.
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When does Zero actually grow up?
For an outdoor wiring harness you don't need space technology or
Also the SR/F does not load does not drive!!!
That is so difficult to control an electric motor ????? >:(
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Yes, yes it is difficult, and yes, yes it does require technology developed for space.
-Crissa
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When does Zero actually grow up?
For an outdoor wiring harness you don't need space technology or
Also the SR/F does not load does not drive!!!
That is so difficult to control an electric motor ????? >:(
The motor doesn't run on simple DC. It's more of a type of PWM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation) applied every 120 degrees to get the full 360 degree turn. Not really all that simple, IMO.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Has Zero now invented the Sevcon controller as well?
There have been RC model cars for years that have the same technology
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RC cars don't:
- Have to run in the rain.
- Be reliable for more than a mile or so.
- Run on more than low voltage.
- Pull more than a couple amps.
Yeesh.
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Has Zero now invented the Sevcon controller as well?
There have been RC model cars for years that have the same technology
I have no idea who invented what, but yeah, as soon as a modern technology is designed, if useful, it becomes common place almost overnight no mater how complicated it was for the first few people to design it. Stuff is often very easy to mass produce after you once have all the technology required. Then prices come down fast and can even be used in toys.
-Don- in cold Cold Springs Valley, NV
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The motor doesn't run on simple DC.
Actually it’s a 3-phase AC motor.
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Actually it’s a 3-phase AC motor.
See here, (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Controller) where is says "MY2017 Zero SR. Scope at Sevcon M3 Output Terminal". The photo of the oscilloscope on the lower right of that page. You want to guess whose bike that is? I have no idea how to edit the Manual, Shadow did that part for me, but that was after we checked my bike on my oscilloscope.
The reason I did that is because of many people who do not know the difference between a "wave shape" and a "sinewave." So I wanted people to see it for themselves.
Such as where the Unofficial Manual says:
"This takes power from DC battery bus, encoding three-phase sine waves to match the motor's position sensor to apply torque precisely to the motor."
And:
"Motor commissioning refers to aligning the controller's sine wave programming against the motor using its position sensors."
Brian, for the sack of accuracy, please change the word "sine wave" to "wave shape". As you can see, that is FAR from a "sine wave" coming out of the controller to the motor. In fact, PWM is a type of square wave, as you can see from my photo.
This is a sine wave. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Simple_sine_wave.svg)
This is a Square Wave. (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SquareWave.html)
Both are "wave shapes".
Anything in-between the two, just use the word "wave shape" which can even include sine and square wave as a shape can be anything.
I am not so sure if I would call it "3 phase" or not. But the motor controller is outputted in 3 phases, each 120° apart. I could accept it being or not being called "3 phase". But I personally think of three phase as looking like this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase#/media/File:3_phase_AC_waveform.svg)
-Don- Reno, NV
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RC cars don't:
- Have to run in the rain.
- Be reliable for more than a mile or so.
- Run on more than low voltage.
- Pull more than a couple amps.
Yeesh.
1. Running in the rain and mud
2. My RC cars have been working for years with countless miles, what should be broken, is a
maintenance-free engine?
3 The higher the voltage the easier the control
4 Zero was too stupid to go to 300 volts with the SR/F
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I have no idea who invented what
You would just have to learn about Zero's technology.
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Well, three pulse patters would be three-phase, Don.
-Crissa
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Well, three pulse patters would be three-phase, Don.
-Crissa
Yeah, the perfect name, IMO, for the Zero's output would be "3 phase PWM". Good info. on page 8 here. (https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AP1609710_different_PWM_for_three_phase_ACIM.pdf?fileId=db3a304412b407950112b40a1bf20453)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Actually it’s a 3-phase AC motor.
See here, (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Controller) where is says "MY2017 Zero SR. Scope at Sevcon M3 Output Terminal". The photo of the oscilloscope on the lower right of that page. You want to guess whose bike that is? I have no idea how to edit the Manual, Shadow did that part for me, but that was after we checked my bike on my oscilloscope.
The reason I did that is because of many people who do not know the difference between a "wave shape" and a "sinewave." So I wanted people to see it for themselves.
Such as where the Unofficial Manual says:
"This takes power from DC battery bus, encoding three-phase sine waves to match the motor's position sensor to apply torque precisely to the motor."
And:
"Motor commissioning refers to aligning the controller's sine wave programming against the motor using its position sensors."
Brian, for the sack of accuracy, please change the word "sine wave" to "wave shape". As you can see, that is FAR from a "sine wave" coming out of the controller to the motor. In fact, PWM is a type of square wave, as you can see from my photo.
This is a sine wave. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Simple_sine_wave.svg)
This is a Square Wave. (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SquareWave.html)
Both are "wave shapes".
Anything in-between the two, just use the word "wave shape" which can even include sine and square wave as a shape can be anything.
I am not so sure if I would call it "3 phase" or not. But the motor controller is outputted in 3 phases, each 120° apart. I could accept it being or not being called "3 phase". But I personally think of three phase as looking like this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase#/media/File:3_phase_AC_waveform.svg)
-Don- Reno, NV
Not sure about all that...... Too much to digest.
This https://youtu.be/iMn7dq7B1oo should clear up things a bit on 3-phase AC power.
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Yes, I would definitey agree that it's more Pulse width Modification - since that's how we change speed - even big power generation have to modify their frequencies so that the grid remains stable. Every time demand increases, the actual frequency begins to drag until they add more.
And while we want them to provide nice sine waves, the sine waves aren't required in the definition of three-phase. They just work better for the purpose of providing power without hiccups.
So it's very similar, even if what we're doing with the power is different.
-Crissa
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Not sure about all that...... Too much to digest.
That was a pretty clear video. Notice how it said in the beginning it's "different from how a 3 phase motor uses power". But there are accepted names, accurate or not.
IMO, the very worse case name is what they commonly call a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter". It's not even close to a sine wave, but that is the name that is commonly used and accepted. It's really a modified square wave (https://theinverterstore.com/faq-items/what-is-the-difference-between-modified-pure-sine-wave-inverters/), but then they may not sell as well to some people. In that case, I think the name as a lie designed for marketing, but is a very commonly accepted lie.
"A modified sine wave inverter actually has a waveform more like a square wave, but with an extra step."
IAC, knowing what it really is is more important than knowing the common name it is called. But it can lead to confusion in some manuals, unless explained as well as in your video.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have absolutely no idea. Isnt the controller under the seat? I bought this bike because i was sick of pulling apart my last bikes to keep them working. And here i am, i changed the handlebar, with another stock handlebar- havent screwed with or messed with anything else, and its dead anyway. I havent unplugged anything, i havent shifted or adjusted anything, i havent washed it (i havent owned it long enough to even WARRANT a washing), nothing.
As for living somewhere wet, i live in vancouver. Pretty sure vancouver is about as wet as it gets, without being underwater. Even the dealership says water isnt an issue for these bikes. then followed it up with a, "well it killed yours though" essentially. Cool. Glad i could be the one in a million.
Well, that's awful. I can't even be encouraging by pointing out that I rode my 2013 DS in the rain and sometimes snow in Seattle for almost 3 years.
Basically, water shouldn't have gotten through there.
The only thing that matters on this thread is trying to figure out what could lead to that and maybe how to prevent full damage if a symptom is detected.
The "controller plug" sounds like the Sevon's AMPseal 34-pin connector described here:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Controller_Connections
I can't work out how that would fail without it being a defect in the pin insertions during assembly or an incredible torrent of water. Did water under there really damage the controller? I'd love to see a teardown if possible to prove causation.
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For all of the aspersions cast in this thread, know that Sevcon's Gen4 controllers, while not the most advanced at this point, are pretty solid and mostly serve the industrial forklift and light truck market.
The AMPSEAL connector ought to be IP-67 rated, but sourcing the right claim for what's on there is tricky. Sevcon rates the controller overall as IP-66. The connector shouldn't be compromised if all the pins are filled in, but again that would be an assembly defect.
If you're going to claim something, cite relevant sources.
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Not sure about all that...... Too much to digest.
That was a pretty clear video. Notice how it said in the beginning it's "different from how a 3 phase motor uses power". But there are accepted names, accurate or not.
IMO, the very worse case name is what they commonly call a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter". It's not even close to a sine wave, but that is the name that is commonly used and accepted. It's really a modified square wave (https://theinverterstore.com/faq-items/what-is-the-difference-between-modified-pure-sine-wave-inverters/), but then they may not sell as well to some people. In that case, I think the name as a lie designed for marketing, but is a very commonly accepted lie.
"A modified sine wave inverter actually has a waveform more like a square wave, but with an extra step."
IAC, knowing what it really is is more important than knowing the common name it is called. But it can lead to confusion in some manuals, unless explained as well as in your video.
-Don- Reno, NV
Pure Sine Wave vs Modified Sine Wave .......
https://youtu.be/qVeERT4nyz8
NOTE: This example is Single Phase but gives the basic example of converting D.C. into A/C.
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Brian,
I find the statement below to be confusing. Output of what? If you mean the motor controller, below is very inaccurate and even contradicts itself:
"The switching attempts to produce a smooth sine wave to each output terminal via Space vector modulation strategy of PWM."
The 3 output terminals of the Sevcon motor controller have NOTHING to do with sine waves. At that point, it is PURE 100% PWM which is far from a sine wave as my 2017 SR photo in your manual shows.
But a sine wave can be used in the process to make PWM. Likewise PWM can be converted into a sine wave. But the output of the Sevcon Motor controller is far from being a sine wave. And certainly not "smooth".
Compare my M3 with my scope (in your manual here (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Controller)) to this "pure sine wave (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5Ebon2pf6miJoqigDzKannWlQ7APfRjzXj-YCsKrF8QF8GFPEMMkgzx_NgrivTEikT47ooWkbBCl28OVm2ZU)" and you will see NO comparison at all.
BTW, I showed M3 there, but M1 and M2 would show as the exactly the same, just timed 120° differently between each.
Please change to something such as:
"The switching circuits produce PWM to each Sevcon output terminal via Space Vector Modulation."
-Don- Reno, NV
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These controller theory posts are a totally inappropriate discussion to be having on Rangerx's thread on his bike failure.
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These controller theory posts are a totally inappropriate discussion to be having on Rangerx's thread on his bike failure.
True, but I think his bike failure has already been well covered here and since the controller stuff started here, I figured this would be a good place to post it instead of starting a new thread.
I have no more to say on either subject anyway.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Update:
Turns out the plug had been compromised/damaged prior to me purchasing the bike. Was basically a ticking timebomb waiting for me to get enough water on the bike that it would get in and fry the controller.
Dealership played the "no warrantee, you bought it as is" card. Insurance said it was a manufacturing defect (never bothered calling the shop, looking at the bike, or even looking at the pictures that the shop took. Told me no, fuck off, and stopped answering my calls), and zero initially agreed with the shop after discussing it with them, saying it was unfortunate, but ultimately my problem.
So my $15k bike was tagged with a +$5000 repair bill just to put it back on the road after one month of ownership, with no wrongdoing on my part- pretty shit deal eh?
SO. After the initial options were exhausted, i contacted the regional Zero rep, asking for direct communication and elevation of my issue to whoever i had to bug.
I ended up talking to a guy from zero directly, i'd love to say his name, but i dont want to potentially cause him any unintended hassle, but despite what i have seen in some of the other posts, i gotta say WOW. A few phone calls back and forth, and they covered the damaged parts for me, and made sure i was taken care of. Looks like i'm still getting tagged for the labor on the install, but it's still a hell of a lot better than the prior number (and the labor is out of zero's hands, understandably). The customer service i got from them was top notch, i'm very happy with how they dealt with it all, especially considering the bike had been out of warrantee for a while.
Not an ideal situation by any means, but looks like its likely resolved. Keep your plugs safe, people.
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That is great news, Rangerx52. I am glad your problem was resolved to your satisfaction.
It is quite possible that the plug was damaged when your bike was assembled at the factory. That happened with my 2014S. When the accessory power tank was installed by my dealer, the bike didn't notice the extra battery. A technician from the Zero factory visited the shop and brought a new power tank with him. He first discovered that the previous PT was defective and after installing the new one the bike still didn't notice the PT. He finally located a wire connector with a bent pin, straightened out the pin and everything has worked perfectly since then. He said that it looked like the pin had been bent when the wiring loom was connected at the factory. (He didn't blame the dealer's technician - at least not to me.)