ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: untuned on July 16, 2019, 12:37:06 AM
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First off, I just want to say that this is a great forum! I’ve been lurking for a few weeks ever since I acquired a 2014 Zero S, which has been lots of fun so far.
Unfortunately the onboard charger is dead, and has been for over a year. The previous owner had bought the Quiq charger and had been using that without issue, which I am using now too, with the drawback that I cannot charge away from home. I read somewhere here that using the Quiq charger without the onboard charger will not balance the battery, so that got me a little concerned as I do not want to damage or shorten the life of the battery pack. There are only 10,500 km on the clock. I am loathe to drop $1200 CAD on a new onboard CALEX charger that could crap out in another 10,000 km (not to mention that I am cheap ;) ). I have read through several charger threads, but I can’t say I understand what real viable solutions are available. I am certainly open to DIY, in fact I would prefer it, especially if I could get a faster charger going. That being said, for the right price, 1.3kw is acceptable for the time being.
Can anyone comment on the reliability of a new OEM (Calex) onboard charger? Have the earlier problems been sorted? I have seen that folks occasionally sell them on this forum. Is it possible to balance the battery cells with an aftermarket onboard charger? I’m still on a steep learning curve for all things electric.
And if anyone reading this lives in the greater Montreal area, I’d be happy to meet up!
Cheers!
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...Is it possible to balance the battery cells with an aftermarket onboard charger? I’m still on a steep learning curve for all things electric.
Battery balancing would be a function of the Battery Management System that is part of each ZForce pack (monolith, powertank, swappable modules). It appears to get triggered above some higher state of charge (90%? from casual observation). There may (or may not?) be some CANbus component to talking with the BMS, as there are CANbus lines that run to the stock onboard charger.
You don't have to use an OEM charger. It is just LiION battery chem and spec sheets do exist for the pouch cells. An example of DIY that I contributed to: Elcon TC HK-H 1800W Charger (on Zero Motorcycles 2013+) (https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0). More testing and improvements are welcome.
As you guess the onboard charger is lousy value-for-dollar by today's measure. If you are so inclined and capable it is needed to fully document the CANbus messaging on the onboard charger so we can answer those other questions.
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Is it possible to balance the battery cells with an aftermarket onboard charger? I’m still on a steep learning curve for all things electric.
What's probably more important than the balancing, is to see if they are balanced! Use the Zero App (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ZeroMotorcycles&hl=en_US)and see how many MV you are out of balance. That is what really counts! IOW, don't worry about it until you're out of balance. (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Cell_Balance) The lower the MV reading, the better. After you get your readings, compare to others here to see if you're more out of balance than most others.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Hi Untuned, some of this was addressed in this thread. http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9053.0
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Thank you for the great information! The Elcon TC charger certainly looks like a great option even if it only outputs 700w from a 110v outlet.
Using the app, the cell balance fluctuates between 3 & 5 while charging; what does that mean? Is that volts or milli volts?
As far as CANbus mapping, I'm clueless. If I knew how to do it, I would certainly try.
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The app is in milli volts and yours is in excellent range. If it's at 15 or greater you might start looking for an issue.
Like Brian said on the other thread the BMS will balance your cells if the charger type can drop the power when "told" to. The Quiq charger has been doing this for you so good news is so far so good.
Sadly the Elcons that were sold by Hollywood Electrics that had been programed for Zero's charging range are no longer being made (sold).
If your skilled in programing and that sort of thing you could make one but please don't get a "dumb" charger setup as it could over charge the bike.
I can't remember off hand but the Zero charge tank may work with a 2014, I know it won't with my 13 and I know it's pricey but I would go that route over an onboard to get the better charge rate and options in town. I'm cheap too but seems much more value to me and there are used options on ebay and for sale on here. Note: a 2017 charge tank was at 3kw and 18,19 were 6kw so price accordingly.
Pure guess work here:
I hope Zero makes the new SRF 3kw onboard charges available for the old bikes. Even if you could only charge at 1.3 with them off wall outlets they would be running at half capacity and hopefully would last longer.
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Sadly the Elcons that were sold by Hollywood Electrics that had been programed for Zero's charging range are no longer being made (sold).
Not exactly true. See my message (reply number eight) here. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9066.0)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Mine died. Two years in. Got an email saying they knew it was a weak point but they weren’t willing to help out/ offer any discount or warranty it. Really stung me and I am not sure I’ll be comfortable with buying another zero because of it...I hope it is rectified, and I’ll do my research, but it left a bitter taste.
love my 2016 DSR, but having to pay $900 (after labor) for a freaking charging system, was not expected from a bike I bought to have “minimal maintainence†and run cheaply. I know we’re still basically beta testers for the market and tech in general, but at such a steep investment cost (relative to other bikes of this class) I for one wasn’t expecting a charger to crap out.
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Mine died. Two years in. Got an email saying they knew it was a weak point but they weren’t willing to help out/ offer any discount or warranty it. Really stung me and I am not sure I’ll be comfortable with buying another zero because of it...I hope it is rectified, and I’ll do my research, but it left a bitter taste.
love my 2016 DSR, but having to pay $900 (after labor) for a freaking charging system, was not expected from a bike I bought to have “minimal maintainence†and run cheaply. I know we’re still basically beta testers for the market and tech in general, but at such a steep investment cost (relative to other bikes of this class) I for one wasn’t expecting a charger to crap out.
In Zero's defense (having recently purchased and installed a replacement Zero Calex charger for my daughter's 2014 S) I think you have to lay the blame for the somewhat unreliable Calex charger on the company that designed and manufactured it. While Zero did select the charger to use in their motorcycles, I am pretty sure that they did not design it or select its components, including whatever it is that is failing after several years of use. In my opinion, Calex should have discounted their new (and hopefully improved) model to Zero's customers who had their original ones fail and ended up purchasing the improved model.
Photo of the new and improved charger attached.
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+1 Richard. I wonder who paid for the new chargers when they died under warranty? Calex had to have some type of warranty with Zero.
We have to keep in mind this type of equipment was really only used for fork lifts and golf carts for so long and even then likely at a charging corner and not attached to the vehicle exposed to the weather and bumps of street use. I expect improvements and much better options in the future.
At this point holding off for as long as one can and wait for better options may be best.
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There is an OEM charger for sale on this forum, but it is from 2014 FX, so only 650w. The owner said that the connections are different, etc. What would it take to make it work on my 2014 S?
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Check out my listing in the marketplace.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9219.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9219.0)
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Untuned: I wouldn't go that route, your trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
Sadly at this point Diginow has dropped making new chargers for Zero and that isn't a good sign for future servicing from them.
I wish this wasn't so, but those chargers are now buy at your own risk. They might have spare parts to help you later and they may not.
I would say get a charge tank from Zero to have some level of service backing.
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Untuned: I wouldn't go that route, your trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
Sadly at this point Diginow has dropped making new chargers for Zero and that isn't a good sign for future servicing from them.
I wish this wasn't so, but those chargers are now buy at your own risk. They might have spare parts to help you later and they may not.
I would say get a charge tank from Zero to have some level of service backing.
Diginow never actually made the charger, they are off the shelf TC chargers and can easily be replaced by ordering through a handful of vendors. Diginow did make the 'brain box' though and assembled all of that into an easy to bolt on kit. I'm sure if you reached out to them they would help you fix / replace the interface module if that were to go bad. Worse case scenario, you could order a thunderstruck evcc to control the chargers, or theres even someone who wrote code for an arduino and a canbus shield to control the tc chargers. You would lose communication with the BMS so you'd just need to be more careful.
Long story short your not dead in the water, there are plenty of options if things go wrong with a used Diginow setup.
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Thank you for all your input. Though the functionality of the Diginow is very interesting, especially that it installs in the same place as the OEM charger, I am deterred by the cost. I cannot afford to put that much into a charger, and at this point, I don't need to have that much charging capacity. That's why the OEM 650w charger is interesting, because the price is right, even if the capacity is low. If I could get it to work without much grief, it would be a viable option for me.
What I am curious about is the 'brain-box' of the charger. If the BMS controls what the batteries receive, what does the control module of the charger do? What search key word do I use if I want to learn more? Charger controller? EVCC? I've never touched Arduino, but if detailed instructions were available, I might venture there.
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...That's why the OEM 650w charger is interesting, because the price is right, even if the capacity is low. If I could get it to work without much grief, it would be a viable option for me....
Glad to hear it sounds useful to you. That is exactly why I did document using the smallest and least expensive model of TC UHF charging module.
Question what needs answered: Does ((1)) a TC charger module that is programmed by the factory for charging profile yet also respond to CANbus or does ((2)) the module need to be enabled (by the factory!?) to respond to CANbus and charging profile is not required to provide to the factory?
"Brain-box" is not needed for the smaller charging currents i.e. QuiQ chargers officially sold by Zero Motorcycles have no such thing.
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My reply isn't technical or anything but I can share my experience. My OEM charger on my 2016 Zero SR with 23k miles just recently failed as well. I happened to live near the official Zero dealership in Orange, CA. I was going to do a direct battery replacement until I asked the owner of the dealership for his recommendation. He said that the OEM Calex charger has been improved and there has been less failures, but it's still an old design that Zero won't probably spend money on fixing. The charger on the new SR/F is a new design by Zero and they probably worked out the kinks.
With that said, he advised me to buy the Quiq charger for a near zero-fail charging solution. He said they are solid, never seen one fail, the cooling/connections/contacts are beefy and should never experience heat issues. So I went with tge $600 Quiq charger since I just use the bike to go to work. The other solution is the $2,300 charge tank option but that's for someone that likes to ride long distances often.
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My reply isn't technical or anything but I can share my experience. My OEM charger on my 2016 Zero SR with 23k miles just recently failed as well. I happened to live near the official Zero dealership in Orange, CA. I was going to do a direct battery replacement until I asked the owner of the dealership for his recommendation. He said that the OEM Calex charger has been improved and there has been less failures, but it's still an old design that Zero won't probably spend money on fixing. The charger on the new SR/F is a new design by Zero and they probably worked out the kinks.
With that said, he advised me to buy the Quiq charger for a near zero-fail charging solution. He said they are solid, never seen one fail, the cooling/connections/contacts are beefy and should never experience heat issues. So I went with tge $600 Quiq charger since I just use the bike to go to work. The other solution is the $2,300 charge tank option but that's for someone that likes to ride long distances often.
If you have 240 VAC around, for a hundred bucks more you can buy a 2.5 KW charger from Elcon, but you will have to run your own wires and make adapters as I did here. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9053.msg80250#msg80250)
Also see here. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9066.0)
The Zero Delta-Q chargers are only 1 KW regardless if 120 VAC or 240 VAC. The ELcon will still give you a little more power, perhaps 1.2KW, at 120 VAC.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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This is a bit of a sidetrack, but has anyone looked into repairing Calex chargers, maybe making them more durable? Was a failure mode determined? If not, maybe someone has an old dead charger they could donate for an autopsy?
I would think that in this crowd the issue has been examined closely, but I'm new here.
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This is a bit of a sidetrack, but has anyone looked into repairing Calex chargers, maybe making them more durable? Was a failure mode determined? If not, maybe someone has an old dead charger they could donate for an autopsy?
I would think that in this crowd the issue has been examined closely, but I'm new here.
Unfortunately, they are tightly sealed in such a way that makes them not reasonably possible to repair. Just junk the bad one--or use it for a boat anchor!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Found this. Yuk! Designed to fail. We're lucky if it hasn't caused fires.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Calex_Charger_Teardown
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Found this. Yuk! Designed to fail. We're lucky if it hasn't caused fires.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Calex_Charger_Teardown
But the latest version is new and improved. ;)
Is Zero still using the Calex charger on the SR/F? ??? If so, they must like them for some reason.
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But the latest version is new and improved. ;)
Does that mean if mine craps out and I replace it, I will get the new improved version?
For now, I try to reduce the time my onboard charger is running by always using a couple of quick chargers even when I am not in a hurry. I figure this way the charger components will not be as hot for as long.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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But the latest version is new and improved. ;)
Does that mean if mine craps out and I replace it, I will get the new improved version?
For now, I try to reduce the time my onboard charger is running by always using a couple of quick chargers even when I am not in a hurry. I figure this way the charger components will not be as hot for as long.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
Yes. The improved version has a plastic box attached to the middle of the power cord. My son-in-law called it a "choke". I think it is designed to eliminate sparking when the power cord is connected or disconnected from the bike at the chassis. ???
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Yes. The improved version has a plastic box attached to the middle of the power cord. My son-in-law called it a "choke". I think it is designed to eliminate sparking when the power cord is connected or disconnected from the bike at the chassis. ???
Oh, so then you must have received the new style of on-board charger when you replaced the one on your daughter's bike. That's good to hear.
I never connect or disconnect the AC when live to the connector to the OBC. I do that down the line, such as turn off the CB to my Tesla Wall charger or disconnect from the J-plug. So I never get sparks on the AC plug on the bike.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Here is the new version of the charger. Note the model number on the case.
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Is Zero still using the Calex charger on the SR/F? ??? If so, they must like them for some reason.
I had the darned 'tank' off (plotting a fix for the panel gap, but that's another story) and took pictures of everything except the chargers.
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I had the darned 'tank' off (plotting a fix for the panel gap, but that's another story) and took pictures of everything except the chargers.
Can you post those pictures?
Even if it is just the start of the story, I want to see how the take comes off and what room there is around it.
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Can you post those pictures?
Even if it is just the start of the story, I want to see how the take comes off and what room there is around it.
Sorry for late reply. Was out of town and didn't have my log in for this site.
Pics aren't that good for illustrating tank removal but it's easy. There are six screws- metric bolt head on outside (8mm?) and a Torx bit cutout in the middle. The Torx is way easier if you have it. The silver part on the tank stays attached to the big part. Remove the one lowest screw on each side of the front plastic that holds the tank to the frame downtube. Remove two screws located by the ignition key. Remove two screws located by the charging socket that are difficult to get out and worse to put back in. There is a flexible plastic piece surrounding the charging socket. I removed it before lifting the tank but now think I didn't have to. You do want to remove it before reassembly though. Then just lift. already have someplace soft to put it down, not heavy but bulky and easy to scratch. Installing is simply the reverse. the big trunk bucket will stay on the bike.
Here are a couple shots that I do have. I was mostly just looking at the hinge assembly. clearly a design error and no doubt quite costly to fix. The multi-part tool to mold the tank cover will cost more than one of the bikes to replace or repair. The hinge pivot is 8mm too low. A home fix won't be easy but I'm working on it.
Pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/Hnui1P6 (https://imgur.com/gallery/Hnui1P6)
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> Diginow never actually made the charger, they are off the shelf TC chargers ...
Well, they say they are customized. They never denied they are from the same factory.
That said, I've been able to use code intended for TC off the shelf units to control (via canbus) the units I bought from diginow. See my other post for the code.
> Long story short your not dead in the water, there are plenty of options if things go wrong with a used Diginow setup.
Yes, see for example Daniel Montero's build of a system he built with Lennart Otten's units, did quite a tour of europe last month. It's on youtube.
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Here is the new version of the charger. Note the model number on the case.
I was a little alarmed to see that my new charger has “Revision A†just like the original failed unit.
But if 45-08234 is the model number on yours, then maybe the 45-08253 number on mine indicates even further development and improvement.
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Here is the new version of the charger. Note the model number on the case.
I was a little alarmed to see that my new charger has “Revision A†just like the original failed unit.
But if 45-08234 is the model number on yours, then maybe the 45-08253 number on mine indicates even further development and improvement.
The model number is EVC-116-1300. The older chargers had a model number of EVC-116-1200. I have no idea what the 45-08234 or your 45-08253 number represents. Perhaps it is the serial number of the particular unit. ??? And the Revision letter is really a mystery to me.
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The 45- number is the Zero part number and the EVC- number is the manufacturer part number. You can see the part numbers on AF1 Racing's site.I suspect droidish is right, perhaps they did make a significant change
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I finally got around to taking a picture of my new charger.
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If those numbers are correct it seems this charger is 95,186% efficient..
Not bad..
Let's hope it lasts longer than previous generations. :)
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I finally got around to taking a picture of my new charger.
That looks like an even newer version that the one that I bought only 6 months ago. Kind of suspicious that the charger keeps being revised. I wonder what was wrong with Model 1300? ???
I guess you just can't get good Chinese (or are they Canadian?) chargers anymore. ::)
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Kind of suspicious that the charger keeps being revised. I wonder what was wrong with Model 1300? ???
I have noticed countless items never stop changing--and I don't mean just with motorcycles, but with almost anything mechanical or electronic. And often with the exact same model number where some change was made at a certain serial number. I have no idea why such changes are made. Often seems just to be for the change and no other reason.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Kind of suspicious that the charger keeps being revised. I wonder what was wrong with Model 1300? ???
I have noticed countless items never stop changing--and I don't mean just with motorcycles, but with almost anything mechanical or electronic. And often with the exact same model number where some change was made at a certain serial number. I have no idea why such changes are made. Often seems just to be for the change and no other reason.
-Don- Reno, NV
Gotta keep those company engineers and product developers busy. ;)
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Well, you often can make the shell cheaper, the traces skinnier, fewer twists and turns, easier on the assemblers (be they robots or humans) and all that changes the revision.
Iterations are much quicker now a days and dies aren't used as long because tolerances are tighter. Anything to shave a penny on the unit.
Like, has anyone noticed socks tend to have fewer threads in them than before? Or sheets have more, but are using poorer quality threads? Suppliers are always dinking around trying to game the system.
It's just life moving. Evolution in process.
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That looks like an even newer version that the one that I bought only 6 months ago. Kind of suspicious that the charger keeps being revised. I wonder what was wrong with Model 1300? ???
I guess you just can't get good Chinese (or are they Canadian?) chargers anymore. ::)
Did your new charger come with a new cord?
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That looks like an even newer version that the one that I bought only 6 months ago. Kind of suspicious that the charger keeps being revised. I wonder what was wrong with Model 1300? ???
I guess you just can't get good Chinese (or are they Canadian?) chargers anymore. ::)
Did your new charger come with a new cord?
Yes it did come with a new cord that connected to the back of the chassis power connection port. It also came with a black box attached to the power cord, which is something that the earlier model chargers did not have. I think that box might suppress sparks when the power cord from the home outlet is connected to the bike. See attached photo.
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Just had the charger suddenly go dead on my 2015 SR. Took it to the local dealer for diagnosis. I figured it was the fuse since it died suddenly, but they say it's the charger, with a quote of $1400 or something to replace. I just drive it 20-30 miles per day around Chicago, so I declined that. Instead i asked how much the DeltaQ would be. They seemed rather confident that wouldn't work, but I see no reason it wouldn't as discussed in this thread.
I should be able to just remove the onboard charger and use the DeltaQ, right? Am I missing something, or going crazy?
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Just had the charger suddenly go dead on my 2015 SR. Took it to the local dealer for diagnosis. I figured it was the fuse since it died suddenly, but they say it's the charger, with a quote of $1400 or something to replace. I just drive it 20-30 miles per day around Chicago, so I declined that. Instead i asked how much the DeltaQ would be. They seemed rather confident that wouldn't work, but I see no reason it wouldn't as discussed in this thread.
I should be able to just remove the onboard charger and use the DeltaQ, right? Am I missing something, or going crazy?
I bought my charger from AF1 in Texas for $800 earlier this year. You can install the charger yourself in about 2 hours with common tools. The only hard part is hooking up the charger's new connectors to the bike's electrical connections, which requires nimble fingers and some effort to push the connections back together. When removing the old charger take a photo of the connections and wire routing which may help you when routing the new charger's wires and connecting the to the bike's wiring system. If I can do it anyone can. ;) However, it does help to have a second person there for moral support and to hold the charger box in place while you screw in its fasteners.
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Yeah it looks like a fairly easy job. I had the big Anderson connector out when running my own simple diagnostics. Only the socket plug looks like it could be a pain. But I think the DeltaQ would be a better option for me: cheaper, less weight on the bike, and seemingly more durable/reliable.
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Would the DeltaQ charger fit in the same space as the Calex one?
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Would the DeltaQ charger fit in the same space as the Calex one?
No, that is a home charger.
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Would the DeltaQ charger fit in the same space as the Calex one?
Totally different shape and to fit in the same space is unlikely.
The DeltaQ charger is kinda large for it's 1KW output. The OBC has more output (about 1.4KW) and I think is also smaller. I think the Calex is also lighter, but I never had one out so I cannot be sure.
The DeltaQ really was NOT designed for a motorcycle. It was designed for electric forklifts but reprogrammed for Zero motorcycles.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The Calex is heavier, and its w/kg ratio is slightly worse. With the skid plate removed you could mount a Delta in the same space (width is similar) but you'd lose some ground clearance, don't know if the mounting holes would line up though so might need some drilling. I'm going to assume in this scenario a dead Calex is being replaced as there'd be no reason to swap a working one with a Delta. For the new price it'd be worth it to pay the extra $200 or so for the stock charger.