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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on February 18, 2013, 08:05:54 AM
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8 kWh 2011 Zero BATTERY project
STOCK ACTUAL SETUP
My stock DS 2011 is giving me 60 real Ah measured capacity before it cut.
That is with 50% highway and 50% city wich correspond to my average use.
This is giving me 60km range most of the time.
I can easy conclude that each Ah is about 1km range
But since the last Ah of a discharged battery represent less energy than the first Ah, it is better to calculate Wh ( What hour) energy wich is not dependent to voltage.
ex: from 0 to 1Ah consumed at 58V this is 58Wh energy
But with the battery at 46V ( near empty) the ah from 59Ah to 60Ah mean only 46Wh wich is 20% less energy for this last Ah
So let's now talk with What hours ;)
My stock battery measured full energy is 3000Wh so with 60Ah the average voltage is 3000/60 = 50Volts.
Adding 5kWh of A123 LiFePO4 cells!!!
The phase 1 of my project consist of using 32 of my A123 LiFePO4 pouches for the first 2kWh addition.
I choosed these A123 LiFePO4 battery because:
- They have excellent reputation and specs,
- Can charge in 15 minutes
- Have 2000cycle of life compare to LiMn
- I already have alot of hardware for 16s ( 48V(52V) standard)
- 16s LiFePO4 match the stock 14s LiMn voltage range
- They have awsome power ( 20 to 30C continuous)
- They are more compact than the LiMn Molicells
That first phase of the project consist of adding 40Ah of LiFePO4 wich will give about 40 more km range wich will extend to 100km ( 50% city 50% highway) wich is a great beginning.
THe big problem is finding the right room to locate them.
After many reflection i decided that the stock 900W quick charger is too big and have to be replaced by something more compact that i can cary or not ( not permanent on the zero)
i'll buy a Meanwell RSP-2000-48 power suply wich cost the same as a quick charger and is 4 time more compact but have the same efficiency and cahrge 2.2time faster
295*127*41mm (L*W*H) and weight 2kg !!
http://www.trcelectronics.com/Meanwell/rsp-2000-48.shtml (http://www.trcelectronics.com/Meanwell/rsp-2000-48.shtml)
They can be placed on both sides of the actual zero battery, they enter perfectly in the frame and are really thin !
If i add alot of range in battery , the only time i'll need for recharge will be on a planned trip and i'll be able to decide to cary it with me in a bag.
Believe it or not, the room that the stock delta Q quick charger have is exactly the room i need to install the first 2kWh of A123 cells ;D
Next phase will be to relocate and replace the controller. I'll install a Kelly 72V 600A model with regen. This controller is like half the size of the alltrax 48V 500A !
The Kely will be located under the seat neat the motor fan blower. It will still have short lengh cable and will be more accessible.
This will add room for another 2kWh, but this time the cellsl will be the 26650 cells ( same as in teh dewalt 36V cordless drill) I have about 320 of these cells that i carefully measured one by one after they was recovered from " deffective" toolpack. They will be in 16s20p config. The average Ah of these cells is 2.175Ah so this will give me 43Ah but i'll only use 40 to keep them balanced.
I plan on adding a common BMS with paralleled 16s balalnce connector that will connect to each 2kWh packs. ( as well i will ensure that all these packs will be connected in parallel only when their voltage is the same!
Now the great question you all wonder: Man... ? How will you connect them to teh actual electrical system ? The stock zero bms is 14s and your battery are 16s ?
Well, i'll only connect the main power connector in parallel, The added battery will have their own central BMS system of 16s.
I still wonder if i add a diode to both battery ( best would be a high current ideal diode made of mosfet) because i dont want to have one of the LIMn or LiFePO4 packs to overcharge a low cell due to connection loop because of the parallelling between both pack with their independent BMS.
Today i finished the first 2kWh made of pouch. I will add the connections and sealed enclosure later.
Another fact that is interesting is that i might get a bit more range due to the " peukert effect" wich mean a pack that is drained at lower current is giving a bit more Ah... so the stock zero battery i have that is giving 3000Wh might give let say 3250Wh because it will have less load due to the current share that will make each pack to have less current draw then when it's a single pack.
will see...
Here is my first 2kWh of cells 8) ( one assembled and another not yet assembled)
Battery Fabrication ( YT video)
http://youtu.be/bvr-EoLs5pE (http://youtu.be/bvr-EoLs5pE)
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Woah Doc, that is very cool.
Let us know how it turns out when you let the electrons fly.
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Great work . Guess your Agni motor is happily performing! Keep us posted
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Those Meanwell power supplies are freaking awesome. How are, or are, you planning to water-proof the supplies? What are you using for DC/DC without the Delta-Q?
Zero is using the LED driver supplies, HLG for their 2013 bikes. The HLG supplies are much less power-dense, 320W in about 80% of the volume of the 2000W RSP supply. They are IP67/65 rated, which is probably more important to Zero.
I wonder if 3x RSP-2000-24 chargers in series would work well for the 2012 bikes. 72V / 18 = 4.0 volts per cell, slight undercharge. 80A of charging in the same weight, half the volume as the 12A Delta-Q charger.
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Those Meanwell power supplies are freaking awesome. How are, or are, you planning to water-proof the supplies? What are you using for DC/DC without the Delta-Q?
That is a great question Protomech. I will not waterproof them since i plan on using them on demand and to be caried in my side bags. But they have excellent reputation for abuse and moisture and hard environment. I might seal them and make some inlet and outlet that i can seal once the charge is finished. If i put one under the seat it will be a bit protected at least.
I am not sure to understand what you mean about Dc-DC and delta Q charger. The Dc-Dc of the zero (58 to 12V 30A) is in the bike frame hidden under the "gas" tank and have nothing to do with the delta Q charger.
The meanwell are CC-CV so thet are constant current and constant voltage ;).. Ok well.. they are constant current at 125% rated current due to the overload protection that limit the total power and current output.. but it work well for all my RSP meanwell power supply that i'm using as a charger for my ebikes.
The little RSP2000 can give 2500W DC output continuous of the input AC is holding the power. wich... yeah.. is absolutly awsome!
Ther eis also some server power supply that many are using on Endless sphere. Cheap on ebay, can be isolated to have many in serie or just connected in parallel !
Doc
Doc
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I believe the 2012 bikes use the Delta-Q QuiQ-dci with integrated DC/DC. Not 100% sure. Thought the 2011 bikes also used this, looks like I'm wrong there.
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I believe the 2012 bikes use the Delta-Q QuiQ-dci with integrated DC/DC. Not 100% sure. Thought the 2011 bikes also used this, looks like I'm wrong there.
I kmow that the 2011 and 2010 have an external DC-DC ( wich is not used to charge the battery but it is used to convert the 58V to 12V for accessories and any 12V device on the bike) it have nothing to do with the charging process.
The quick charger from delta Q are AC-DC converter.
The 2010 have the DC-DC inside the battery case as well as the contactor, fuse and relay. The 2011 have the DC-Dc external to the battery. they are sevcon DC-Dc of 12V 30A.
The Meanwell 300w of the 2013 battery are AC-DC converter used as a charger
Doc
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It's going to be interesting when I go to integrate all of this stuff into my Yamaha TW trike conversion. Lots of "head scratching" to look forward to.
I pick up my 2013 FX, from Harlan, this Friday (2/22) ;D
Trikester
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I believe the 2012 bikes use the Delta-Q QuiQ-dci with integrated DC/DC.
No,the 2012 has a separate DC/DC for 12V its under the tank.
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I believe the 2012 bikes use the Delta-Q QuiQ-dci with integrated DC/DC.
No,the 2012 has a separate DC/DC for 12V its under the tank.
Same as for the 2011.
Doc
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It's going to be interesting when I go to integrate all of this stuff into my Yamaha TW trike conversion. Lots of "head scratching" to look forward to.
I pick up my 2013 FX, from Harlan, this Friday (2/22) ;D
Trikester
Great!!! PLease take some pics of the delivery and post them ;)
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ReplyQuote
Quote from: trikester on Today at 10:33:42 AM
It's going to be interesting when I go to integrate all of this stuff into my Yamaha TW trike conversion. Lots of "head scratching" to look forward to.
I pick up my 2013 FX, from Harlan, this Friday (2/22) ;D
Trikester
Great!!! PLease take some pics of the delivery and post them ;)
Report to moderator Logged
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Good suggestion! I probably would have not thought to take my camera.
BTW - I've got photos from August 2010 when the DS I waited 2 years to get, was delivered directly to my shop by TJ who was at that time a factory rep. Very personal service at that time by a very tiny company called Zero Motorcycles. 8) On the left side you can see a part of the big cardboard box it came in.
Trikester
My 2010 DS being delivered 8-21-2010, two years and one week after I placed my order and put down my deposit :o
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Wow that's a nice picture and i see your great Smile ;)
These day are awsome when we get something we have been waiting so long for!
I guess the 2013 picture with the FX will be great too! dont forget to bring your camara!!
Doc
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Here is the first ideas of the schematics for the wirring of the BMS of my 5kWh battery pack.
There is few conditions to not have any battery to overcharge or overdischarge the paralleled one and also to have a HIGH current BMS that can support 400A for interrupting power in case of protection activations.
This BMs is one well known for the ebikes but usually working at 40A on discharge and that i have modified to have it working to 400A using a contactor that is only active under the condition that the zero key is turned ON ( ignition) to not have the relay coil that drain all the extra battery juice 24h/24.
Doc
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I also have another vrevision that might draw less energy for the relay and DC-DC. total power draw is 3.5 watt including the 500A contactor
Doc
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I guess the downside is that you will need a second DC - Dc converter, but it would be lower power than the main one on the bike.
Trikester
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I have few EV-200 contactor in my lab so i also plan on replacing the one in the stock zero 2011. The Kilovac are excellent because they consume about 1.7W only and are 100% sealed.
Doc
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Here is an overview of the final version of the battery connectoin i chossed:
( no worrie i will replace the actual Alltrax controller adn will replace it by a 90V 600A Kelly =) so it will be able to take 84V on a fully charged battery. Also, the stock 14s LiMn BMS of the zero will remain intact and will continu to manage the zero battery. All the serie and parallel battery i will add will be independent BMS protected and all will have a diode to avoid reverse current problems. Also the recharge will be protected with diodes.
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Is this the bike with your recuperation?
How do you make recuperation with the diodes? I don't know how your recuperation work but I have done some thinking with additional batteries at the 2012 and diodes would destroy some nice ideas!
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Is this the bike with your recuperation?
How do you make recuperation with the diodes? I don't know how your recuperation work but I have done some thinking with additional batteries at the 2012 and diodes would destroy some nice ideas!
Yeah, The diode would bypass the regen i agree, but it's a choice betweenhaving regen or havingextended range with battery protection against reverse current if one or more battery disconnect.
That project is more complicated becasue from now i decided to keep the actual stock battery of the Zero and by that way the need of keeping the BMS and MBB.
The second thing i could do is redesing the battery to have only one battery with 84V and 100Ah, but i would also need to build a fake circuit that fake the 14s battery bank to the mbb to have it still working and not detecting error.
the actual 2011 MBB can not manage more than 14s and to have 84V i have to incresse the number of s (battery bank in serie) wich is a problem... so the way i choosed to have everything working together is to keep the stock zero battery with all the protections, and then to add with extra battery with protected strings in parallel and in serie
Doc.
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I see you do a lot of work in your bike, but every thing I saw of you was always really professional. I did some smaller mod during winter time but my garage has same temp as outside, and we had an awful long winter.
So it was not to much fun. The location//garage I saw of you seams to be more cozy than mine.
Will be interesting what you can get out of your 2011.
The leg of regen is not so bad I just was curious if you found an easy way to do it!
Curious how your bike will look in the end.