ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: dc5dd on August 19, 2013, 08:04:15 AM
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The concept is to take a Zero Motorcycle preferably the Zero S 2013 model and add a Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Horizon Fuel Cell and extend the range of the motorcycle. How much is anybody’s guess but I’m thinking that it depends on the fuel cell wattage as well as how much hydrogen you can store on the motorcycle. Since a fuel cell is not limit like a battery to its charge but by the supply of hydrogen it can theoretically supply the necessary power indefinitely. But the fuel cell cannot output the high currents needed (unless it is a very large fuel cell) for the motor thus a hybrid of battery/fuel cell is an ideal solution. I don’t have the motorcycle or the fuel cell yet I just would like an idea of how to proceed so I’m confident that I have the right parts. Also since the fuel cell and the motorcycle cost a lot I will have to get the setup in pieces.
The initial approach was to add the fuel cell on the motorcycle and charge while it was parked but thinking about it a little I came to the conclusion that that is no different than charging at a wall outlet, so charging on the go should be used, more on that later.
Horizon offers a 1000W and a 3000W that would go well with the motorcycle being light weight fuel cells (11lbs and 45lbs w/o the hydrogen storage, valves and tubing). The 1000W is a model H1000XP http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!h-series-10w-5kw/c1cb8 (http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!h-series-10w-5kw/c1cb8) used in SHELL Eco-marathon competition for lightweight and high efficiently, it should output about 100VDC@10A about the same as the on-board charger of the Zero S 2013 model. The 3000W is a model H3000 “Autopak"http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!autopak-/cpor (http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!autopak-/cpor) used in trial runs on small two door vehicles in UK with the added benefit of nitrogen purging that should extend the lifetime of the fuel cell by 2 to 3 times according to Horizon/Arcola. Similarly the H3000 should output about 100VDC@30A which would give a higher charge rate but also increase the weight about 35lbs. Both of these fuel cells come with a DC/DC converter that will output 100VDC regardless of the output of the fuel cells and also about 90% efficient converter.
Here comes the tinkering/assumptions and suggestions are more than welcome. As far as I can see the integration of the fuel cells on the on the motorcycle will require mounting of the fuel cell stack and its components on the motorcycle and the electrical interface to the battery pack. There is also the required 12VDC power supply for the fuel cell controls but I’m assuming that is an easy fix by tapping into the 12VDC source of the motorcycle.
There should be enough room to mount the fuel cell stack in the “gas tank†or maybe further modification is required to fit the fuel cell there. The hydrogen tank can sit behind the rider on a rack. I’m planning on using a metal hydride storage tank http://www.hydrogencomponents.com/BL-740.htm (http://www.hydrogencomponents.com/BL-740.htm) that measures about 5 inches in diameter and 8 inches in length about 12lb. That leaves the two other main components which are the DC/DC converter and the stack controller/command module, hopefully there is enough area around the gas tank to the seat to the battery pack, and this should also be the area to mount the hydrogen tubing and valves. The fuel cell needs to breath to convert the hydrogen to electricity so a mesh might have to be used in the gas tank area. These are the places I’m thinking of but suggestions are welcomed.
The big unknown for me is how to work the output of the fuel cell to battery interface. According to Horizon/Arcola I can customize the output voltage of the DC/DC converter I think close to 100VDC is what they can do maybe more if you order custom. What is the charging voltage for the 2013 Zero S? If the motorcycle is in operation (moving) and the fuel cell is connected will it charge or is there a way to fool the BMS into charging even if it is being used? I know from the manual and reading on the forum that the motorcycle has safety features and interlocks I need to know and understand these so that maybe there is a way to “keep†them but also charge the battery with the fuel cell while the motorcycle is in operation. According to the 2013 owner's manual page 6.11 the BMS communicates with the charger to stop charging is this true? I always thought the BMS just disconnects its main contacts??
I believe the beauty of the system (fuel cell and battery) is that it is almost plug and play if you can call it that. The fuel cell to battery interface is where it gets interesting.
Once again any suggestions/comments are more than welcome.
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A charging voltage of 100 volts will only yield about a 25% SOC, with full charge occurring at the termination voltage of about 116 volts. The DC charging port by the motor, not the AC input, would be the logical location to input the DC charging current but I doubt that the bike would allow driving while charging without some software programming. The 3kW option would not quite keep up with driving energy demands but would sure provide a long range. This could be the future.
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You can boost from 100v to 116V for the 2013 using a DC-Dc converter in Boost mode to get the 16 missing volts. but problem is that the power of 3000W can only take a Zero to about 60km/h max. no highway possible with 3kW supply...
you need more like 10kW to run on teh highway...that's a bit more than 3 f these 45 pounds fuel cells....
Doc
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And a fairly large hydrogen tank to get much runtime out of them.
Have prices come down at all? I looked at them recently and it was several grand for a 1kw setup.
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You can boost from 100v to 116V for the 2013 using a DC-Dc converter in Boost mode to get the 16 missing volts. but problem is that the power of 3000W can only take a Zero to about 60km/h max. no highway possible with 3kW supply...
you need more like 10kW to run on teh highway...that's a bit more than 3 f these 45 pounds fuel cells....
Doc
You are thinking of it the wrong way Doc. The bike would run normally because it is powered by the normal ZF battery. The fuel cell just recharges the traction battery. Think of it as having a 3KW charger with a very long lead. It would extend your highway range by 30% and your city range by much more.
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It would do a bit better than that on the highway - since your power draw is effectively reduced to 7 kW, and any driving time spent getting to the highway is even more significantly reduced, it would amplify your highway range by 10/7 = 43%. The fuel cell and associated electronics weigh 20 kg, but then you must add a fuel tank, valves, tubes, DC/DC converter, bracing, etc etc.
dc5dd - your example cylinder holds 740 liters H2 at SP, which is 66.5g (I think). The cylinder is just too small and too low pressure (< 550 psi). It could only power the 3 kW fuel cell for 20 minutes (~1 kWh electricity), and I'm not sure it could even supply the flow rate required to operate that fuel cell.
Quantum's Type IV H2 34L cylinder (http://www.qtww.com/assets/u/TankBrochure34L40L.pdf) holds 1.32 kg H2 at 5000 psi, weighs 16.8 kg, 83.8 cm / 33" long, 27.4 cm / 10.8" diameter, and can run the hydrogen fuel cell for approximately 6.3 hours to produce 19 kWh in total, reduced by DC-DC efficiency. I guess the entire H2 system weighs in around 60+ kg (~300 Wh/kg).
If the system were larger - powerful enough to allow for highway operation - this would be pretty attractive if you could quickly refuel for a highway trip in 5 minutes. But since it really just extends city operation (~400 miles), I don't think it's terribly useful. Refueling with H2 every week isn't a better option than plugging in to charge every day IMO.
For a similar volume and weight, you could add 4 more battery modules to the ZF11.4 bike, doubling its city range AND highway range and halving the effective discharge and charge C rate.
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There is a guy over at visforvoltage who is thinking of doing the same thing. Reviving an old Vectrix idea.
Vectrix had a working fuel cell prototype but it never made it to production.
more interesting details in this thread:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13439-fuel-cell-vectrix-rides-again (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13439-fuel-cell-vectrix-rides-again)
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Wow thanks for the responses.
@JefRo 116VDC got it
@frodus the 1kW cost about 6K to 8K with all the accessories, here are the two websites that have the cost not cheap but has high potential.
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=155 (http://www.fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=155)
http://fuelcellsetc.com (http://fuelcellsetc.com)
@Doctorbass NoiseBoy is right this will just be a "range extender" it should extend the range "alot" also you can carry another hydrogen storage tank with you for another increase in range. The tanks will have metal hydride that will absorb the hydrogen so it is also inert if the tank happens to be punctured.
@protomech interesting argue. I looked a the Quantum but that was compressed hydrogen (more dangerous) and also the tank was much too big can you imagine going down the road with a 3 foot tank strap to the bike :o, I'm wondering if Solid-H will make a bigger tank? As for the pressure and flow rate Solid-H says if you give them the specs they will work with you to get the proper pressure and flow rate. Hopefully it will not expend a great deal of power to get the hydrogen back from the metal hydride. For me the attraction comes when you can refill almost like a gas station fill up and not have to plug into anything for an hour or two.
@kingcharles thanks I'll give that a look
@kingcharles found a website on the webpage you give me and it has the lowest cost on fuel cell that I have seen, Thanks. http://www.thehydrogencompany.com/Fuel-Cell-Systems/1kW--5kW-Systems/13/15/1kW--5kW-Systems.htm (http://www.thehydrogencompany.com/Fuel-Cell-Systems/1kW--5kW-Systems/13/15/1kW--5kW-Systems.htm)
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1kw for 6-8grand? Wow... If you have that much money to throw around go for it.... You'd need a home filling station for another 2-3grand (for something that could fill a large tank).
I'd be spending my money on some side cases and more batteries... Or more energy dense batteries. The energy density on those systems is poor and there isn't much infrastructure for refuelling small tanks. Got a quote from horizon just now and it's $11.4k for 3kw. I could pay Zero to build me a bigger pack for that much dough. Or do it myself.
I was absolutely shocked at how expensive these PEMs still are.
Wow.
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frodus,
I can definitely understand what you are saying in fact I would agree with you on the cost but this was mostly a practical hobby for me. Practical as in when you are finish it will do something and not just be a dead end. I went to school for electrical engineering and never ready had a chance to practice my profession. This project would give me a hobby and let the rusty wheels in my head turn. One question though 6 -8 grand will allow Zero to build a bigger better pack? Maybe new battery chemistry? Sounds cheap??
Danny
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Add up a 3kw setup with hydrogen with the filling station and tank and DC converter and see what you come up with. I bet it's over 10k. I could absolutely build a pack with 3kwh that'll fit in a couple side bags for under 5k. But you may just ask zero if there are options.... Thats all I'm saying.
Terry Hershner has two or three zero packs on his bike... Its possible.
Its not really practical because of the efficency of creating hydrogen... Compressing it and then concerting to electricity then boosting get that to pack voltage... Or you could charge a battery at a slight loss from the charger and get near 100% back out. Plus the cost of a PEM system is pretty steep. I've been looking into it for years. The energy density on a PEM system is around 60wh/kg compared well over 100wh/kg for a Zero battery system.
Yes it will work... But are the costs worth if for you? If so... Then go for it.... But I think an extra pack would benefit you more.
I'm an EE too..... Nice to meet ya.
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Input from another EE. Sometimes we just want a brain challenging project to work on, especially after retirement. Even if it doesn't make economic sense. I'm trying to think of an example, hmm..........................how about converting a gas trike to Zero's drive system. ::)
Nah.
I fully understand frodus. If the money's there, go for it!
Trikester
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@frodus and trikester
I wish the price of fuel cell would come down too. I've been waiting and waiting it seems that the individual components are being develop but the entire system is way over the horizon. Particularly since PEM need platinum for material and that is expensive.
Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?
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Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?
My knowledge of software and programming wouldn't fill my coffee cup but perhaps the Doc, or Harlan, or some of the other software savvy people on this forum, can answer that question. Of course the best source for the info would be from Zero but as the manufacturer of these motorcycles they would be very wary of being involved in customer modifications of their product - liability being what it is these days. >:(
Terry (offthegrid) had a small solar panel mounted on the back during his cross-country ride. From what I understood (when he was telling me about it) that it fed directly to the battery through the external charge connector without charge control (it could overcharge if left on too long). Unfortunately, I didn't think to ask him if it supplied any power while he was riding. He must have tricked the charge controller into connecting the charging port while stopped, but whether it did that while riding, I don't know.
Trikester
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Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?
You don't need to fool the system. If you feed your current to the battery line (Sevcon controller to Battery box) it will charge your battery. It is the same as your regenerative braking system work.
The energy source need to have a "week" output characteristic curve or a current limiter!
You can see "Doc" doing this feeding 6kw in the powered on bike. Actually to power on the bike you can use the high current path, it you use the charging inlet you are limited by a 30A fuse and week cables!
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15516#msg15516 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15516#msg15516)
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That's a good video that Doc made. It explains a lot.
He didn't mention that the key has to be on for the switch in the battery to connect to the Sevcon. However, the video shows by the lights being on that his key is on. In the stock charging connector a signal line from the charger tells the battery to connect with the key off. On my 2013 battery modules there is no voltage present at the battery terminals when the key is off. It would seem that the charger signal could be created to connect the battery with the key off. Or: The internal battery switch is a mosFET. Maybe the charger could just connect to the battery through the body diodes of those switches. Termination voltage would need to take into account the drop across the diodes.
Trikester
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I've been chatting with horizon for the past week or so and have dealer pricing because I'm a business. I'm looking into maybe getting a small one to play with. They seem pretty cool.... Even if they aren't that energy dense.
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@frodus
the lowest seems to be 1kW which needs a DC/DC convertor. According to Acorla if you use their modified horizon setup with nitrogen purge it could extend the life of the fuel cell by 2 to 3 times. Which is very impressive but a 1kW from them cost about 1.5 to 2 times what horizon is charging.
Can I ask what is dealer pricing? According to the http://www.thehydrogencompany.com (http://www.thehydrogencompany.com) website a 1kW would cost $4.5k USD!
I'm getting a lot of good info here just need to dug more.
@BSDThw
Using the regenerative braking path is a great idea but the next question would be what about when the bike is off??? Need to look more into the what Doc did
@trikester
I'm thinking most on this forum are EE ;). I need to find a minimal invasive way to do this without altering the internals of any of the major electrical components. I think I have enough to dug with. More questions soon.
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Email me and I can get you initial some pricing. Its still not cheap but it's better.
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@frodus
Do you have the equipment to charge the storage tanks? I was thinking about this because it came up before and my initial thought was to purchase cylinders from Airgas or equivalent and if it pans out purchasing a reformer.
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Hi dc5dd
@BSDThw
Using the regenerative braking path is a great idea but the next question would be what about when the bike is off??? Need to look more into the what Doc did
If the bike is off the main relay is off => no connection to the battery! You should not power the Sevcon(Battery +/-) in "OFF"!
The Sevcon will pre-charge its internal capacitors normally. If you go to an "OFF" Sevcon you have a high inrush current to the Cs and than no connection to the Battery :-[
I am testing the possibility to run the Sevcon and leave the rest of the bike "OFF" (Main relay will be switched by the Sevcon) but it will take 1-2 days before I have finished!
I will post if it works!
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@frodus
Do you have the equipment to charge the storage tanks? I was thinking about this because it came up before and my initial thought was to purchase cylinders from Airgas or equivalent and if it pans out purchasing a reformer.
I have absolutely nothing except pricing... Which is lower than retail because I own a business in Oregon. I don't yet sell them nor own one myself.
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I will post if it works!
Did a 30-minute Test - charged the Battery with 45A and only powered on the Sevcon => main contactor. Worked pretty well but I will check out more.
If I have my charger-project done I will post detail information. (Still waiting on some parts)
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@BSDThw
The 1kW fuel cell can only output power similar to the onboard charger so I don't think the profile you were talking about is not a problem. Why not use the accessory charge connector or onboard charger connection and input the required trigger signal to connect the battery to the fuel cell/quick charger.
If in fact it is as simple as that and for me the charging while the bike is off is solve (maybe). On to when the bike is on ;D
On second thought BSDThw can the sevcon handle changes in VDC (35-48VDC) because the fuel cell will have these according to the power demand and this would allow me to do without the DC/DC converter for the 116VDC that I need to charge the battery pack. Which is one less component to do with. Man i need to read up on the sevcon controllers.
Does the BMS in the battery box monitor and equalize charge or the charger? I would think it is the BMS inside the battery box.
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With a 1KW fuel cell you can use the accessory charge connector I think I lost the common thread :-[ (1KW)
I didn't explain the Sevcon thing correct!
The Sevcon is not really involved in the charging, it will only activate the main contactor ( the relay you hear clicking when the bike is powered on )
If the relay is on you have an electric connection build for 420A, that is what I like to achieve.
You definitely need a DC/DC converter (the Sevcon will do nothing for you) , if you like to have it "perfect" you need a regulation that tries to set the fuel cell voltage to it's power maximum point. If you use a fixed ratio it should work but not at its best efficiency.
The BMS has an ON/OFF signal you should definitely use it to stop charging when the BMS monitor a "cell over-voltage" but how I understand this is a protection/fault situation. As I see with my Delta-Qs they reduce current before and the voltage will not top this level. The BMS can balance the cells but I have no information how and with what technology it work. I didn't monitor the charging very exact yet I don't know if there is a special signal for the balancing.
BTW: I don't know the 2013 model, I talk of my 2012 experience therefore keep in mind maybe it will be a bit different at the 2013!
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Bummer I thought there was a chance it would work since the controller is responsible for regen and the fuel cell as well as the motor voltage fluctuates. If you channnel the fuel cell back through the controller like the motor regen it can charge the battery???
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Your Motor is a three phase system AC with 120° phase shift, your fuel cell is a DC system.
What would work for a DC source you can feed DC in your standard charger but also you need ~85V DC :-X and have to look how to regulate your power correct.
You will like this, because solar and fuel cells are both DC-sources. I don't know how deep(VDC) the internal (Meanwells) at your 2013 can work.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14290#msg14290 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14290#msg14290)
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14301#msg14301 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2897.msg14301#msg14301)
BTW: If I understand you, you like to do this because you are interested to "play" with this technology?
I have never worked physically with fuel cells but have adapted a solar grid inverters to be powered from a fuel cell. It works as a "combined heat and power unit" CHP there the immense heat loss is used too. - I understand if you like to "play" with such a system I often do things being not necessary/efficient eq a revers mode at my bike ::) but it is fun.
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It wouldn't matter since you're going through the fets and onto a DC bus. You're just rectifying the ac. Putting straight DC likely wouldn't matter.... But there may be safeguards in place to require an rpm input in order to rectify.
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@BSDThw
Thanks for the info it'll take me a while to digest. Yeah I'm having fun the cost is high but I'm do it in parts first the motorcycle and it to run out of warranty and then the fuel cell system, then finally to put it all together, especially since there are no major electrical changes to the bikes for 2014. Early diopters always have a hard time because of the unknown I'm just tired of waiting for the commercial fuel cell motorcycles to come out besides this should be right up my alley. You know it might be even easier if feeding the DC through the onboard charger will work. I'm having trouble finding the DC/DC converter that will step up voltage from 35-48 to 116VDC, this way I'll only have to step it up to 85VDC (maybe) I'm not sure if that will be better?
@frodus
I'm thinking a electrical schematic of the sevcon and a understanding of the "safeguards" is in order here ;D
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Honestly, Good luck getting any circuit schematics from Sevcon. Sschematics wouldn't really help you (the power side of most inverters is pretty similar).... it would all be part of software control.... which you're just not going to get from any OEM. I know other manufacturers have done it with their inverters, but that doesn't mean the sevcon will. Is it possible? In hardware..... but software? Not so sure. There's external components required if you want the controller to boost voltage, and the controller firmware needs to support the flow of current through from the motor side into the battery. Also, This could NOT be done when the vehicle is running, so it does you no good, other than to have a way to charge it while stopped. You might as well use the charger as mentioned. I doubt the charger can be used at the same time your plugged in. Almost every production EV I've been in prevents driving off while plugged in.
My thinking is you are jumping in a little above your head and need to back off a bit. Going by your questioning about these bikes and the technology in them, you're new to it all. I realize you need a project and obviously have a lot of money burning a hole in your pocket, but if you don't have experience with power systems enough to know how an inverter works, you shouldn't be trying to use it in a way that is not intended. That's a good way to let smoke out of the controller or hurt yourself in the process. Also, if you don't have experience with Hydrogen Fuel cells, I suggest you get a small one to play with first. Hydrogen is no joking matter. In compressed cylinders it can be very dangerous. I realize there's hydrides that allow you to store hydrogen in crystals, but that requires compressed hydrogen too.... from another hydrogen tank, or from an at home hydrogen generator/compressor (not cheap). Another thing is that you need to convert the output to a useable voltage and may require a large DC-DC converter with controls associated with it (current and voltage control as well as an enable/disable). That's not to mention that you'd need to integrate to the Zero electrical system so that it can turn off charging once voltage gets too high (integrate into their BMS). All of this is an integrated system and unfortunately neither Zero nor Sevcon is likely to give you much in the way of schematics or sourcecode.
I'd spend the money on an extra battery and have them advice you on how to integrate that into your system. I know Terry has done that and it works very well and is way more cost effective.
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frodus
I'm not sure if I'll burn something up or not just throwing around ideas. If you think about the hybrid vehicles they are a combination of two different but similar system. If they can charge on the go why can't I? I just have to proceed with caution and thoroughly research the system as a whole and each individual component. And then if I plug it in and it burn something up then so be it. I've tried my best but need to revise my strategy.
I don't have all the money at once but I'm determine to see this through. Not only that but also that it is as much plug and play as possible so if I want to yank the fuel cell system out, the bike can still function.
Plug and play should mean something simple if possible so I would think if connecting to the sevcon becomes too complicate then that is not the route to go. The onboard charger would have been a good idea except the meanwell need at least 127 ~ 431VDC which is way above the fuel cell voltage. Need to look further into using the onboard charger or plugging into the accessory charger.
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frodus
I'm not sure if I'll burn something up or not just throwing around ideas. If you think about the hybrid vehicles they are a combination of two different but similar system. If they can charge on the go why can't I?
Because you don't have the tools you need to do so. To truly integrate a system like they do on production Hybrid vehicles, you need to design from the ground up and integrate with all of the onboard equipment (chargers, BMS, controller, hydrogen fuel cell, DC-DC boost converters etc). Hybrids represent millions of dollars in development cost that are amortized over years and years of vehicles sold. To do so on a one-off-basis, you're looking at developing your own VCU, or at least licensing from Zero to talk to their VCU and implementing your own VCU that can operate the hydrogen side of things and also allow "charging" while running. That rules out using the controller for "regenerative" charging because you can't use it as a charger while running the motor. It also rules out the charger (most likely) because IIRC, the Zero won't drive with the vehicle plugged in (aka power going to the charger).
I just have to proceed with caution and thoroughly research the system as a whole and each individual component. And then if I plug it in and it burn something up then so be it. I've tried my best but need to revise my strategy.
That research will help, but you'll likely run into the same problem. I have been consulting in EV's for almost 5 years now and have worked with several startups on ground-up electrical designs. To do this with a Production vehicle where they've already got a VCU inside will cause problems for you. You can't just bypass the BMS and start charging, because if you do have a full lithium cell and turn on the hydrogen generator, that cell starts overcharging. The BMS needs to stop your system when ANY cell goes high, not just pack voltage.... so you need to figure out a way that would allow that.
Also, I don't know if the power supplies/chargers/DC-DC you may use will be useable with their output tied to the motor controller. Motor controllers are very noisy electrically.... Also they need to be protected with diodes to ensure current doesn't flow back into the supply.
I don't have all the money at once but I'm determine to see this through. Not only that but also that it is as much plug and play as possible so if I want to yank the fuel cell system out, the bike can still function.
The best advice I have, since you're determined... is to talk to Zero and see if they have a way for the BMS to turn on/off an external power source. I know they turn on and off the charger, but you need one that turns on/off your Hydrogen Generator, so it needs to function while in DRIVE. The charger won't function in Drive (or the charger disables drive).
I'd suggest building all of this on a much smaller scale, then scale up.
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I just started with my 3 * 24VDC RSP 1000 Meanwell in Series (for a 1012 battery). It works pretty well - so maybe you will find DC/DC converters you can use in series too. But you have to take care the DC/DC is isolated (and adjustable). Often it isn't because you can built cheaper without isolation;).
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Bsdthw... How do you terminate charge? Or do you?
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I have 3 Delta-Q doing the end of charge perfect, my Meanwell stack will have a lower Voltage than the end of charge voltage + I will use the MBS signal (white line) to shut off if the cells not balanced enough.
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Ahhhh, so there is a line that comes off of the MBS to allow you to shut something off. I appologise, I'm still learning about the Zero's. That's really good to know.
That might be all he needs..... that and DC-DC boost converter system of some sort.
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I believe the Delta-Q and the Meanwells on the 2013 will work from DC, so if you have a DC output from the Fuel Cell Stack, you can plug that into the chargers input power and it will work. you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped. I know it makes the most sense to design the output of the fuel cell to work as a battery charger itself, but simply plugging in the onboard charger is a very simple way to prove that the concept works or not, and has all the safety systems in place.
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Biff thanks for this information.
you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped.
I don't need it for my "normal" charging but be interested, do you know - is it the same with the 2012 Model.
Hi-jacking this thread but maybe useful for the Fuel Cell too.
I have cut the "orange-red [Key switch in]" line 1 at the Sevcon and connected a toggle switch (Keyswitch) which has its second position connected to Battery + (tapped at charger + line)
Yet I can switch the Sevcon on and the bike is still off. I now use the line contactor way to the battery what do you think doing this?
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I just went to Randy's Cycle in Marengo IL and rode the 2013 S model it was great. By the way Randy is a great guy him and his staff didn't give me that salesman feeling i would recommend them for Zero purchase if you are close I had to drive six hours but that was for business. One initial impression is that the seat is HARD!!! maybe just me.
@BSDThw
I look through the meanwell but the voltage of the fuel cell was too low (45vdc max). I'm not understanding something doesn't the BMS inside the battery box manage the charge? and all i would have to would be to provide the proper voltage? From there all you would have to figure out how to input the charge with Zero's safety measures. The meanwell from 2013 and the delta q from 2013 just provide charge and the trigger signal?
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@Biff
I wouldn't think that just simply plugging the fuel cell into the onboard charger would work. I think that would be the first safety measure Zero would put in but there might be a way to bypass this. Which would be perfect because that way the fuel cell is simply a charge source much like a portable electric generator.
Biff if im understanding this correctly plugging the fuel cell into the meanwell and delta q will allow the system to charge while the motorcycle is on but only while the motorcycle is on and if the the motorcycle is off but the fuel cell is on the motorcycle safety measure will not allow it to charge even if it will be turn on later
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How I understand a BMS it is not a charger it will observe the battery parameter and send signals. If it would switch active it needs powerful (expensive) components. I don't know if it is able to cut off the line but I guess not!
The other important job is to balance the cells. There are different systems active/passive... I guess Zero will not tell you what is inside because this is one of the important parts to spent our battery a long-live-time. I think it is a passive balancing while charging. If a cell voltage get higher then others you just "burn" energy with a resistor (it will be a small current - balancing can take 72h when I remember correct) you will wast energy but while charging it will be not a big deal. Active balancing will exchange charge from the full cell to a weak cell.
It works always and your weak cells are "repaired" the hole stack has a higher capacity as the weakest cell, but I only know this in 1-4A versions this wouldn't help a bike using 400A. And it will raise the price of the bike enormous.
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@BSDThw
So the charger supplies the energy and the BMS supplies the intelligence to charge the battery pack. If that is true all I would have to do is supply the energy if you don't take into account the safety measures of the system.
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The charger use a Constant Current / Constant Voltage method. Look for CC/CV and you will find better explanations in the WWW than I can write.
The Charger regulate the current at a fixed value till the end of charge voltage is reached now the current will be reduced to hold the voltage value. If the current goes down to a certain value you will claim your battery as full.
Having cells in series you can't be sure each has the same voltage therefore if the stack is out of balance maybe one cell will reach the max Voltage (now it starts to be dangerous) before the hole stack reach its end of charge voltage. The BMS will prevent exactly this scenario.
all I would have to do is supply the energy if you don't take into account the safety measures of the system.
You need a current limited source with an adjustable voltage point and I would definitely use a series diode to prevent a reverse current + use the BMS signal to shut off .
I don't know your knowledge of this but playing with batteries in our KWs is not a joke.
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Biff thanks for this information.
you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped.
I don't need it for my "normal" charging but be interested, do you know - is it the same with the 2012 Model.
Hi-jacking this thread but maybe useful for the Fuel Cell too.
I have cut the "orange-red [Key switch in]" line 1 at the Sevcon and connected a toggle switch (Keyswitch) which has its second position connected to Battery + (tapped at charger + line)
Yet I can switch the Sevcon on and the bike is still off. I now use the line contactor way to the battery what do you think doing this?
If the bike is off, and you are charging through the high power connection of the battery, the BMS will not know that it is in charging mode ,and may not balance cells, and may not update the State of Charge (unless you get it charged high enough to use Battery Voltage as the SOC measure)
@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC. that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.
-ryan
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@BSDThw
Thanks for the warning, I definitely understand your warning believe it or not I used to work as a project engineer for a short time in building substations @ up to 36kV and sometimes we had to do measurements out in the field :o
@Biff
that was what i was afraid of im thinking that maybe it is hardware or software or both needs to be "fixed". I wish there was a technical manual i recall there was a leaked document on another thread that i should have downloaded befors it was taken down.
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@Biff Thanks for this advice,
I should have mentioned I charge with 1 to 3 Delta-Qs at the normal inputs and additional with the Meanwell through the high power connection of the battery. Therefore the BMS should be activated?
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@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC. that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.
I assume you're still limited by the maximum DC output of the stock charger, as well as needing to provide sufficient DC power (900+W) that the charger does not fault? Is there a way to current-limit the onboard charger?
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kinda.... you could put a different algorithm in it that charges to a lower voltage, and it will "LIKELY" pull fewer amps because it's not pulling to that higher voltage. There's no direct current control that I know of, it's all based on the algorithm.
@BSDThw,
If you're directly connected to the battery, how does your BMS tell the chargers to stop charging when one cell hits HVC? Are you using that BMS signal to turn it on and off?
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@BSDThw and frodus
According to the 2013 owners manual if that is what you have
"Charger-Disable Interlock
When the charger is attached and plugged in to AC power, the BMS communicates with the charger. The BMS can send a signal to the charger requesting that charging terminates immediately. When the charger is disabled, the indicator lights on the charger displays that charging has stopped.
There are two conditions that cause the BMS to disable charging:
1. Too hot
The BMS detects an internal power pack temperature above 131°F (55°C).
2. Too cold
The BMS detects an internal power pack temperature below 32°F(0°C)."
Also according to the manual
"During an ordinary charging cycle, when the cells are balanced, the charger (not the BMS) senses that the power pack is full and terminates the charging cycle with a “green light.†The BMS does have a redundant back-up mechanism to prevent overcharging of the power pack. If the charger fails to terminate a charging-cycle when the power pack is full, the BMS will terminate charging itself to prevent damage."
This would indicate that the onboard charger can "sense" the SOC of the battery pack and terminate. I had always thought that the BMS signals to the charger to terminate the charge???
@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC. that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.
I assume you're still limited by the maximum DC output of the stock charger, as well as needing to provide sufficient DC power (900+W) that the charger does not fault? Is there a way to current-limit the onboard charger?
That one went over my head? What do you mean? Thanks
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The charger does not have any clue what the SOC is, it's only looking at voltage. DeltaQ aren't that smart. They have a set voltage and current max, an interlock (to signal to the bike that it is plugged in) and an enable line. From every install I've seen with the DeltaQ (the Zero may be slightly different), the BMS will enable and disable the deltaQ if the BMS commands it to.
It sounds like:
- The BMS will disable the charger if things are too hot
- The BMS will disable the charger if things are too cold
- The BMS will disable the charger if a single cell goes too high or the pack voltage goes too high
I also think that:
- The BMS knows when the vehicle is plugged in, and will not allow the bike to start
- The BMS will not give a signal to the charger to enable if the vehicle is in Drive Mode (and even then, if the deltaQ is powered, it would immediately disable drive mode)
The part that is going to give you a problem, is if you're in Drive mode, and try to power the deltaQ, it'll likely disable your controller. If you disconnect the enable on the deltaQ such that the deltaQ is always enabled, the BMS will NOT be able to control the charge if a cell goes too high, if the pack voltage goes too high, or if things get too hot/cold. You MAY be able to disconnect the interlock so that the BMS thinks the vehicle is plugged in, but it may never enable the charger.... see the catch 22?
BTW.... I have a history with installing and setting up BMS, namely Elithion and Orion. Most BMS I've researched all have the same basic features to protect the batteries.... They control the load by enabling and disabling the controller, and they control the charge by enabling and disabling the charger. Everything else is just warnings or data logging bells and whistles.
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I might have to bring some more info for you guys.
As Biff said The deltaQ and many other switching power supply based charger DOES WORK with DC at the input.
This is also a great way to get CHEAP Dc-Dc if you buy some 12V 5A or more power supply like the popular 12V 5A on ebay at 10$. these often take as low as 25v anc can sustain the rated load. I have found that idea 6 years ago and applied that method on my first ebikes built
I have posted a video of the Delta Q Dc as input 3 month ago: ;)
DC to power your Zero motorcycles charger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yisFzF_480#ws)
Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections. But once i connect the delta Q, it re-update and correct the SOC succesfully
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I thought the BMS or MBB used couloumb counting alongside voltage for the 'fuel' gauge? If you are charging with the bike switched on then it would just count the charge as if it was regen. Have you tried using your charger with the kickstand up Doc? So that the bike is in drive mode.
From what the manual says it sounds as if the BMS can terminate the charge independently of the charger. i.e. with a switching relay. But I think this is just badly worded.
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@frodus:
If you're directly connected to the battery, how does your BMS tell the chargers Voltage to stop charging when one cell hits HVC? Are you using that BMS signal to turn it on and off?
I just built and test it but I have adjusted the Meanwell Voltage lower then End off charge because finally I use 1 to 3 Delta-Q in parallel doing the rest . But I have tapped in the Plug of the on-board charger and use Bat+ and BMS signal (white) to feed my Hardware. I will use an op-amp ... to detect the BMS signal to shut off my additional chargers too.
@Doctorbass:
Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections
You can fix this very easy! Just return from the garage: I have used a separate power-supply adjusted to 3.2V (because this is what the Delta-Q does and I have no idea how much voltage the Zero BMS will stand) connected minus to the charger port minus and used a ~20KOhm resistor from +3.2V to the charger port (white ) charger activate line. The Zero was pulling the voltage down to ~1V what is similar to what it does with my Delta-Q. I connected my 45A direct to the Sevcon to Battery in and the fuel gauge was updated ;D
I think I don't have to explain how to use your 5V or 12V Aux to make 3.2V... ;)
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I thought the BMS or MBB used couloumb counting alongside voltage for the 'fuel' gauge? If you are charging with the bike switched on then it would just count the charge as if it was regen. Have you tried using your charger with the kickstand up Doc? So that the bike is in drive mode.
From what the manual says it sounds as if the BMS can terminate the charge independently of the charger. i.e. with a switching relay. But I think this is just badly worded.
That's what I thought but the manual specifically says that the charger can terminate charge whether it terminates itself or a contactor is a question but it says this, maybe its from a old manual carry over but I'm thinking they check errors like that.
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I might have to bring some more info for you guys.
As Biff said The deltaQ and many other switching power supply based charger DOES WORK with DC at the input.
This is also a great way to get CHEAP Dc-Dc if you buy some 12V 5A or more power supply like the popular 12V 5A on ebay at 10$. these often take as low as 25v anc can sustain the rated load. I have found that idea 6 years ago and applied that method on my first ebikes built
I have posted a video of the Delta Q Dc as input 3 month ago: ;)
DC to power your Zero motorcycles charger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yisFzF_480#ws)
Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections. But once i connect the delta Q, it re-update and correct the SOC succesfully
Doc
According to the Meanwell specification the Meanwell HLG-320H-54A will not work with 85VDC but require at least 127VDC can you provide some insight on this. Thanks
Update 9-23-2012
Well, I called Meanwell USA and their explanation is that the spec sheet is correct with tolerances from component to component they can not guarantee that the Meanwell will turn on at 85VDC in fact it probably will not. The tech says that he has see it come on at about 110VDC I asked about 116VDC and he says it should work but anything lower he was wary off. Also there might be a derating factor (kW) associated with going below their 127VDC specifications.
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My two cents. I tend to believe the manual when it says the BMS can terminate a charge if the charger fails to do so. If the BMS did not have this ability it would be worthless as a backup fail safe. If the BMS depended on turning off a charger that had already failed to turn off there is no redundancy, no fail safe. It has to have independent control to terminate an over charge.
In the switchmode power supplies that we manufactured we always had to have an independent OVP. It could not even be a part of the main controller chip in case that chip had failed. Our customers insisted on that.
Trikester
BTW - Had a great techi conversation with JefRo in front of the Recapture Lodge in Utah the other day. He also took my e-trike for a quick spin.
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My two cents. I tend to believe the manual when it says the BMS can terminate a charge if the charger fails to do so. If the BMS did not have this ability it would be worthless as a backup fail safe. If the BMS depended on turning off a charger that had already failed to turn off there is no redundancy, no fail safe. It has to have independent control to terminate an over charge.
In the switchmode power supplies that we manufactured we always had to have an independent OVP. It could not even be a part of the main controller chip in case that chip had failed. Our customers insisted on that.
Trikester
BTW - Had a great techi conversation with JefRo in front of the Recapture Lodge in Utah the other day. He also took my e-trike for a quick spin.
Trikester
I understand that the BMS can terminate charge but it is the manual saying that the charger can also terminate charge that I'm confused about.
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The way I see it the BMS tells the charger to shut off when full charge is reached. If the charger fails to do so, then the BMS itself has the ability to cut the input to the battery to prevent further charging by the failed charger.
Trikester
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When I monitor my chargers they will reduce the current at a certain voltage value. - The BMS protection line will never shut off mine.
When I give a voltage value 3.3V to the BMS it will pull down the 3.3V to ~1V and this enables the charger.
The derating looks as it is done with a µC algorithms because my voltage drop down when the current is throttled but the current will get lower and lower. An analog part would regulate the current up again, if the voltage drops?
But if I see the new 2013 batteries hot-plug able at the FX XU... I guess there are switching parts inside, with the 2012 batteries I would like to know.
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Yes, the 2013 FX/XU battery modules have disconnect FETs inside the battery case. As also do the batteries for the 2013 S and DS because they are internally made up of the FX/XU modules. So basically all 2013 bikes are FX / XU modules in different mechanical configurations.
Those 2013 S & DS batteries weren't recalled because the outer case provided the moisture sealing for the modules inside even if they weren't properly sealed..
Trikester
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I thought I would "concluded" some of the ideas and thoughts that we had on this thread so I wouldn't leave people hanging about what might come next. Anyway, I've had the 2014 SR for a little while now and I can say that it is a great bike, I'm not sure if that means anything since I haven't rode much before the SR interestingly the thing is that a lot people transition from the Vstrom which was what I had. For me the ability to finely control the bike was one of my greatest motivations to switch to the SR that and my beginning hobby on riding didn't mix well with all the hills in Missouri and shifting.
Mostly I was stuck on this statement:
During an ordinary charging cycle, when the cells are balanced, the charger (not the BMS) senses that the power pack is full and terminates the charging cycle with a “green light.†The BMS does have a redundant back-up mechanism to prevent overcharging of the power pack. If the charger fails to terminate a charging-cycle when the power pack is full, the BMS will terminate charging itself to prevent damage.
This is on page 6.10 of the 2014 manual and 6.6 of the 2013 manual. I know that most would either disagree and semi disagree with this statement but I did some research into this and I believe that it is true. The BMS serves as a backup in this case and if everything goes "smoothly" with the charging then the charger would terminate the charging. Having redundancy in the system is important especially if it is charging and protection of the battery. The other question that came up was that the charger (Meanwells) are a dumb devices that doesn't monitor charging so my thought was to trace the Meanwells into the battery box to see if there is a monitoring circuit that would prove that the charger does monitor charging under normal circumstances. I haven't done that yet as I'm having too much fun to start taking the bike apart.
Also as I mentioned before I would like the fuel cell system to be as much plug and play as possible and with that the idea was to use the on board charging path or the main vdc bus. The on board would be easier but limited in that if I was to upgrade to a 3kW fuel cell it would not take the current. Biff mentioned that I would have to be rolling for a long time to turn on the fuel cell to charge the battery and that got me thinking about an experiment to verify this. A gas 1kW generator could be used. I would have to switch it on on the highway or something and monitor the SOC after the ride.
This would be a temporary solution to get the fuel cell working in theory and a good first step, beyond that would be to connect to the main vdc bus which gets all sorts of complicated. Anyway I haven’t verify any of this just hypothesis but once I have some time to get the cover off the charger I’ll be able to verify the monitoring circuit. Also have to borrow a small generator. ;D
Anyway that's it for now. Just wanted to share thoughts and ideas, also to thank all that shared their ideas and thoughts. Thanks
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I know that most would either disagree and semi disagree with this statement but I did some research into this and I believe that it is true. The BMS serves as a backup in this case and if everything goes "smoothly" with the charging then the charger would terminate the charging.
I completely agree - even the 2012 Models are doing this. The Delta-q has an algorithms to reduce current when reaching maximum voltage and also the 72 hours check comes from the Delta-q.
The other question that came up was that the charger (Meanwells) are a dumb devices that doesn't monitor charging.
Owning a 2013FX shortly I have more understanding for the Meanwells used there. I woundered that I could never find the Meanwells even being familiar with Meanwells for my 2012 Project - the reason is it is not an ordinary power supply it is meant as a LED Driver.
The Meanwell HLG-320H-54 exist in different versions [A; B; C; D;] I had only a quick pry under the tank-cover and as much as I remember it is a type A but modified. The type A has the possibility to adjust voltage and current with an internal potentiometer. I saw cables running out the housing not belonging to a standard type A - I guess Zero has modified the chargers for there need. I am not sure if it is only to switch off the charger but if I had to develop it I would use the voltage and current adjustability to scale the charging. I remember a sticker Hi and Lo or similar at the two Meanwells. You always need 2 HLGs in series to reach 116V for the battery-pack maybe one is regulating current and one voltage?
Modified:
I have found out what it really is: the cables Zero attached to the Meanwell HLG-320H-54A are only NTC thermistors glued to the case. Reading the datasheet says "OVER TEMPERATURE Shut down and latch off o/p voltage, re-power on to recover" so if not stopped before it will stay OFF till re-powered! :(
so my thought was to trace the Meanwells into the battery box to see if there is a monitoring circuit that would prove that the charger does monitor charging under normal circumstances.
As I could see this additional cables are connected with the MBB. (I reckon the intelligence comes from there)
As much as I understand since 2013 the battery is driven by CAN communication.
(all this is taken by observation and is not proven!)
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BSDThw,
The leaked presentation tells that the Meanwells are indeed HLG-320H-54A. I've looked into these and they are LED power supplies with a number of protection features. Thanks for the info on the MBB it helps when you know what you are looking for :D