ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: oldnoah on June 28, 2019, 12:44:54 AM
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I have 2016 Zero S with 26k miles on it. For the first 2 years I didn't have any charging problems, but in 2018 I noticed the cable getting hot, especially near the receptacle on the bike. I tried cleaning the contacts, both inside the cable (with a file) and the male pins on the bike (with electrical contact cleaner), but it didn't work. I bought a replacement cable, which seemed to work for a short time, but it got hot again pretty soon. At this time I also started having problems with the bike tripping GFCI outlets.
This spring, when I took it out of storage, I noticed that the cable was burned around the neutral pin in the cable end. I bought two new cables, one for work, and one for home. They both burned in the same way. I bought two new cables, which were "medical grade" NEMA5-15P/C13 14 Ga cables, and then cleaned the pins in the connector in bike using a file. The first couple of charges seemed to stay cool, but then the cable discolored and then burned on the following charge.
Has anyone else had this problem?
The problem is compounded by the fact that the place I bought the bike stopped being a Zero dealer. They are still willing to work on the bike, but Zero doesn't consider them a service center anymore. The nearest dealer is 110 miles away. So I'm going to have to trailer it to the dealership.
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I've wondered myself how long the stock cable is suppose to last. Obviously the c-13 end is going to wear out faster, and when it does, it wont fit as tightly and overheat. Changing out the plug on the bike looks like a big job.
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Could this be a problem with arcing while plugging in?
I thought that I had read some users using a switched outlet so that the plug could be connected with no power, preventing arcing damage.
Then after the plug is connected, throw the switch to apply power.
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Relevant (which the OP seems to have already consulted and tried):
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Common_Problems#Stuck.2FWarm_Charging_Cord
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Common_Modifications#Spare_Onboard_Charger_Power_Cables
There should be a more generic version of this issue, since charging cords eventually wear out in one way or another, but your inlet or the onboard charger may be deteriorating. The inlet is cheap to replace but labor-intensive. The onboard charger is easier to replace but more expensive.
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Could this be a problem with arcing while plugging in?
I thought that I had read some users using a switched outlet so that the plug could be connected with no power, preventing arcing damage.
Then after the plug is connected, throw the switch to apply power.
No arching with me. I learned early on how to plug in to prevent arching at the bike end, but I like the idea of having a "switched" wall outlet.
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I have 2016 Zero S with 26k miles on it. For the first 2 years I didn't have any charging problems, but in 2018 I noticed the cable getting hot, especially near the receptacle on the bike. I tried cleaning the contacts, both inside the cable (with a file) and the male pins on the bike (with electrical contact cleaner), but it didn't work. I bought a replacement cable, which seemed to work for a short time, but it got hot again pretty soon. At this time I also started having problems with the bike tripping GFCI outlets.
This spring, when I took it out of storage, I noticed that the cable was burned around the neutral pin in the cable end. I bought two new cables, one for work, and one for home. They both burned in the same way. I bought two new cables, which were "medical grade" NEMA5-15P/C13 14 Ga cables, and then cleaned the pins in the connector in bike using a file. The first couple of charges seemed to stay cool, but then the cable discolored and then burned on the following charge.
Has anyone else had this problem?
The problem is compounded by the fact that the place I bought the bike stopped being a Zero dealer. They are still willing to work on the bike, but Zero doesn't consider them a service center anymore. The nearest dealer is 110 miles away. So I'm going to have to trailer it to the dealership.
I have had problem with arcing. But as we have 230V AC, 6A is really not enough to cause trouble with heat*.
But Arcing is a serious problem, so my solution was to buy a switch that i connect between the outlet and the cable. Having this off while connecting, there will be no arcing in the connection between the bike and the cable. Arcing within the switch may still be a problem, but the switch is easier to replace than the bike socket, so this is what i do.
In addition to this, the bike charger is very moodsick, meaning that it will trip my breaker frequently. I have reduced the amount of times the bike trips the fuse (16A fuse for 6A, solely used for the bike...) by having the bike keyed on before i turn on the power. Lately however, when running the battery low (~20-25%), or in warm humid weather, the bike still trips the breaker quite frequently, but it tends to work if i leave it off for a while before attempting again.
* For charging EVs in general, anything above 10A is considered unsafe using ordinary household (schuko) plugs. They are not made to last if you replug often, and they tend to go warm after being in use for months/ years, but if you keep the wire attached to the wall or a switch permanently attached to the wall outlet, you will minimize that problem.
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Could this be a problem with arcing while plugging in?
I thought that I had read some users using a switched outlet so that the plug could be connected with no power, preventing arcing damage.
Then after the plug is connected, throw the switch to apply power.
No arching with me. I learned early on how to plug in to prevent arching at the bike end, but I like the idea of having a "switched" wall outlet.
Yep, plug the cord into the bike before plugging into the wall socket.
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Could this be a problem with arcing while plugging in?
I thought that I had read some users using a switched outlet so that the plug could be connected with no power, preventing arcing damage.
Then after the plug is connected, throw the switch to apply power.
No arching with me. I learned early on how to plug in to prevent arching at the bike end, but I like the idea of having a "switched" wall outlet.
Yep, plug the cord into the bike before plugging into the wall socket.
Than when finished charging, unplug the wall socket before unplugging from the bike.
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Then when finished charging, unplug the wall socket before unplugging from the bike.
Doing it this way you only need to worry about replacing the wall outlet and the plug from the cable after X number of chargers.
These are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than the ones at the other end.
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Then when finished charging, unplug the wall socket before unplugging from the bike.
Doing it this way you only need to worry about replacing the wall outlet and the plug from the cable after X number of chargers.
These are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than the ones at the other end.
I disagree. Most plugs dont get plugged and unplugged as often as our chargers do. Sometimes every day. They get worn from normal use. What I want to know is how long will a cord last with normal use? And how long before the bike input plug needs to be replaced. I've had power tool plugs and extension cords wear out so bad that they hardly stay plugged in anymore. It's not from arching, but everyday use.
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My cords typically lasted about two years each. Replacements were inexpensive, until my onboard charger died and I gave up.
But this will vary with the amount of dirt and moisture encountered. I probably had more than some did when I lived in Seattle, and less here in the San Francisco area (but it's not arid here).
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My bike had been charged for about two years (and about 17000 km) on my wall socket in my garage (220V). I always followed the advice of plugging in first the bike and then the wall socket (and vice versa when unplugging). So far, I did not see any visible damage.
Nonetheless, I replaced the wall socket against a new one as I had a 3 phase line installed to my garage. The new socket is extremely similar to the old one, consisting of the same 220V socket, but instead of one phase has additional two phases.
My electrician recommended me to instead install a CEE socket (which is much more durable), but that unfortunately didn't meet the WAF. ::) Instead I had a switch installed into the 3-phase wire, so that the whole line can be switched on/off electronically, which has the additional advantage that it can programmatically switch on the power only over night when it is cheaper. ;D
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I have 2016 Zero S with 26k miles on it. For the first 2 years I didn't have any charging problems, but in 2018 I noticed the cable getting hot, especially near the receptacle on the bike. I tried cleaning the contacts, both inside the cable (with a file) and the male pins on the bike (with electrical contact cleaner), but it didn't work. I bought a replacement cable, which seemed to work for a short time, but it got hot again pretty soon. At this time I also started having problems with the bike tripping GFCI outlets.
This spring, when I took it out of storage, I noticed that the cable was burned around the neutral pin in the cable end. I bought two new cables, one for work, and one for home. They both burned in the same way. I bought two new cables, which were "medical grade" NEMA5-15P/C13 14 Ga cables, and then cleaned the pins in the connector in bike using a file. The first couple of charges seemed to stay cool, but then the cable discolored and then burned on the following charge.
Has anyone else had this problem?
The problem is compounded by the fact that the place I bought the bike stopped being a Zero dealer. They are still willing to work on the bike, but Zero doesn't consider them a service center anymore. The nearest dealer is 110 miles away. So I'm going to have to trailer it to the dealership.
Have you tried another cord to the bike? Could be higher resistance in the old cord.
It is possible the bike is fine. Edit:Oh, I see you have tried other cords. 14 gauge wire? That should be good for 20 amps and at 120 VAC I would expect a 13 amp or so draw.
The other possibility is your charger is drawing too much current--which most likely means it's crapping out. Can you check the current with one of these thingies? (https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Multimeter-MSR-C600-Auto-Ranging-Multimeters/dp/B00NWGZ4XC/ref=lp_5011677011_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1561754372&sr=1-3)
But you have to separate the wires in the cord to test. See here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfAz9iVQoiY)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I had a problem like that - arcing when plugging the C13 into the bike. It wasn't like that when I got the bike, and the problem only became apparent some 2 years down the road (around 2016), and then... the charger died. It was then 2.5 years since buying the bike, so it took some complaining (reasonable) to Zero to get it fixed on their account. Now another two and a half years later that replacement charger is going strong, and there is no arcing... I plug in the cord, then after a certain delay I hear the contactor to click, and charging begins. I assume until that click the load is very small, if any, and there shouldn't be any arcing.
Bottom line, this maybe a symptom of malfunctioning charger that may soon go out.
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I have mentioned this in previous cord related posts. If charging my SR from an outlet ( Which I try not to do after 4 charger replacements ),
I use TWO cords, one 5-15P ~ C-19R and One C-20P ~ C-13R Both 12AWG. The " HEAVY DUTY " cords are mostly 14AWG so you either have to
do a lot of searching or build your own.
With this set up, I plug one cord into the bike, leave one plugged into the wall and just plug the two cords together. No stress to either wall or bike.
Since bike is now out of warranty, I only use on board charger if ABSOLUTELY necessary. If using regular wall outlet, I use off board QuiQ charger at 1KW.
If using public station I use the Elcon 2500. If necessary, the Elcon can be plugged in to the C-19 cord that is living in the wall outlet.
Zero says that the problem with chargers is moisture. I live in Vegas. We don't have moisture. Bike never ridden in the rain. Wiped down, not hosed off,
drive around puddles or if I HAVE to ride through, slow almost to a stop so as not to "splash". With this setup, NONE of the four ends is ever much more than warm to the touch. NEVER hot
You could also wire outlet for 20 Amp to make it easier to find 12AWG cord. You won't be using 20 amps so should not cause problem with breakers. Other heavy duty 20 amp options could
be used as well, you just have to do the conversion.
THIS one is easier to find as the C19, C20 are usually heavier duty use
https://smile.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Heavy-Duty-IEC-320-C20-P032-007/dp/B000FAIEB2/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=c20+cord+12awg+-14awg&qid=1561755610&s=gateway&sr=8-3
Hopefully this helps
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The " HEAVY DUTY " cords are mostly 14AWG so you either have to
If I'm not mistaken, 15A branch circuits are typically wired with 14AWG which is the minimum AWG required by NEC. So it's somewhat pointless to go with a beefier cable unless the issue is one is fairly far from the outlet.
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The FX charges at only 5.5A/650W. When I plug the cord in, there is a delay of 3 seconds before the contactor actuates, so no arcing occurs. When I pull the plug after charging has stopped, again there can be no arcing. Occasionally if I must unplug before full charge, I say "Alexa, turn off Zero charger" before unplugging. :)
(The J1772 EVSE for my EV car prevents arcing by stopping the current when it detects the plug being withdrawn.)
I use a cord reel mounted on the ceiling: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007JQAVFC. It has magnificent form and function. At 1875W rating with 12ga hi temp wire, it will not overheat, and it locks so there is no mechanical torque on the inlet.
Temperatures measured via IR gun during charging:
67F - ambient
67F - section of 12ga cord
69F - case of cord reel
77F - rows of cord inside reel (cord insulation rating 221F)
92F - my palm
91F - 5-15P to C13 short adapter cable and plug ends - warm to touch
134F - inlet housing - too hot to touch more than a few seconds
If higher models take double the wattage, I could see the inlet housing getting extremely hot. Zero should probably use better connectors than C13/C14.
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I tried cleaning the contacts, both inside the cable (with a file) and the male pins on the bike (with electrical contact cleaner), but it didn't work. I bought a replacement cable, which seemed to work for a short time, but it got hot again pretty soon. At this time I also started having problems with the bike tripping GFCI outlets.
This spring, when I took it out of storage, I noticed that the cable was burned around the neutral pin in the cable end. I bought two new cables, one for work, and one for home. They both burned in the same way. I bought two new cables, which were "medical grade" NEMA5-15P/C13 14 Ga cables, and then cleaned the pins in the connector in bike using a file. The first couple of charges seemed to stay cool, but then the cable discolored and then burned on the following charge.
Most connectors come with coating on the contact surfaces that is designed to reduce oxidation (oxidation creates resistance, resistance creates heat when current is flowing) When "cleaning" "using a file" you are removing that coating, so in very short while oxidation builds up and connectors start to heat and burn. I would recommend replacing all connectors with new ones and make sure you don't connect or disconnect the cable while current is flowing.
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Most connectors come with coating on the contact surfaces that is designed to reduce oxidation (oxidation creates resistance, resistance creates heat when current is flowing) When "cleaning" "using a file" you are removing that coating, so in very short while oxidation builds up and connectors start to heat and burn. I would recommend replacing all connectors with new ones and make sure you don't connect or disconnect the cable while current is flowing.
I'd agree that a file is too rough. I'd recommend spray-on contact cleaner designed for the purpose, followed by inserting and removing the plug (with the power off) several times to burnish the contacts. If you really feel the need to scrub, use nothing more abrasive than a pencil eraser. It may not bring the contacts back to bright and shiny, but that's not always necessary. If this treatment doesn't bring the contacts back to serviceable condition, or if the contacts have worn and provide too much or too little spring tension, it's time to replace it.
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Instead of dealing with the bad c13/14 connectors, would it make more sense to just swap out the connection on the bike with a standard 110 v male end? Has anyone done so? Then you could just use a standard and 15amp+ rated extension cord? thanks!
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When I first got my "S" the previous owner was charging the bike with a 16 gauge computer cord. After a very short time charging, it was too hot to touch. I replaced the 16 with a 14 gauge cord, and it was still hotter than I thought it should be, so I replaced it with a 7 foot 12 gauge cord. It now go's to a network switch and is only warm to the touch. It's scheduled to charge from midnight to 6 in the morning, and if it's above 30 % at midnight 6 hours is a full charge. If it needs longer to charge it can pick it up the next night. I also keep a 10 foot 12 gauge cord with the bike just because. Just like a 20 amp outlet holds the plug much tighter, a 12 gauge cord is quite firm in the bike.
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I am a bit late to this thread but.
Yes, code may say that a branch circuit is breakered at 15 amps and the plug itself can handle 15 amps, but in real life, they will NOT HOLD UP to hours upon hours of this current. You WILL burn up the plugs! BOTH SIDES of it.
They get hot, which at first may not be that big of a deal, it's just 'warm' but over time the female spreads, gets looser, now it gets very hot up in there, and then that makes the problem worse, now stuff starts melting / burning up.
Charging your car / bike is going to take HOURS ! You might get 6 months out of this cord before it's wrecked. BTW as it burns itself out if it starts arcing / snapping, that little ripple or noise, whatever you want to call it, the harmonics of that tends to be real shitty on hi freq switching power supplies / chargers, especially any electrolytic caps in there, you will bulge them.
IF you must run 14 gauge, id recommend 10 amps MAX. If you are running 12 Ga, id recommend 12 amps before it starts getting too hot after time. This is of course if you are running a 25 or less foot cord. If you are running 100 feet of cable, the line drop is going to get you as well..
Aaron
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My stock cord has always seemed a little loose at the bike and was warm during charging. I replaced it with this 12 awg cord and it’s a good snug connection and completely cool to the touch.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078V9K14V?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078V9K14V?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1)
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They get hot, which at first may not be that big of a deal, it's just 'warm' but over time the female spreads, gets looser, now it gets very hot up in there, and then that makes the problem worse, now stuff starts melting / burning up.
Aaron
mmmhhhhhmmmmm giggity. :)
But seriously, Mrs. Motoproponent has a DSR that has been her daily commuter for going on 4 years now. I got a replacement 14 awg cord from a computer supply house a few years ago after I noticed the stocker getting warm. The replacement is pretty high quality as it is designed for servers that pull significant wattage continuously for years. We have it plugged into an Alexa powered smart switch so we can tell the bot to charge later at night when power is cheaper. $30 for the cord, $25 for the smart switch. Money well spent if I can sleep at night without worrying about a garage fire.