ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: trikester on October 23, 2015, 11:08:51 AM
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I've been getting PM's lately asking about the reverse switches I've added to my 2013 FX and e-trike (2013 drive-train). So I'm going to post the information that I have sent people here. I'm showing only what I did and I'm not making any recommendation to anyone to do this (just replying to questions). It may have an effect on your warranty and it may injure or kill you if not used correctly. One person has said that his wire colors were different than mine so there may be a difference between models (mine was MX/FX harness and his was S).
Here are the wiring changes but the Sevcon also has to be programmed to recognize the reverse input signal. Harlan did that software change for me.
From Sevcon (Motor Controller) pin 19 is a Org/Blu wire going to the MBB pin 19. Cut that wire and connect Sevcon pin 19 to the terminal of the SPDT switch that will become the reverse terminal. Connect the MBB pin 19 Org/Blu wire to the wiper of the switch. There is an Org/Gry wire connected to the Sevcon pin 18. Cut it (the other side of the cut wire is left unconnected) and connect Sevcon pin 18 to the terminal of the switch that will become the forward connection when the switch is thrown to connect the wiper to this terminal.
So, when the switch is in FORWARD it will be connecting MBB pin 19 to Sevcon pin 18. When in REVERSE it will be connecting MBB pin 19 to Sevcon pin 19.
If I were to do it over again I would use a DPDT switch and wire a warning beeper to the other side to provide a warning when the switch was in the reverse position. Or, I may use a momentary push-button switch on the left bar that would have to be held down by my index finger to keep it in the reverse position.
I haven't done this mod to my 2014 DS yet so I don't know if the wire colors will be different on it.
NOTE! IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING THIS MODIFICATION BE SURE TO READ ALL OF THE ADDITIONAL POSTS FOLLOWING THIS ONE. THERE IS MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CONNECTIONS TO THE SEVCON CONTROLLER AND SUGGESTIONS TO NOT USING PREWIRED SEVCON PIN 19 AS THE INPUT. THE 2014 IS DIFFERENT THAN 2013 AND THE 2015 IS DIFFERENT THAN 2014.
Trikester
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Thanks for the writeup! I'll be working this out on my 13 DS soon, using the DPDT switches built into some SP plastics. It'll help if I can light up red lights in reverse...
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I converted a gas bike to electric (almost), it is where I can ride it around, it has working lights etc. and I used an after market kill switch (the type that has 2 wires coming out of it, spring loaded) so that you hold it in/down to get reverse.
The bike has a kelly controller. This setup is simple and works well. I use my right thumb to hold down the button and twist the throttle at the same time. It stops me from using full throttle by mistake as my thumb would be not be able to stay on the button if I turn the throttle to much.
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That sounds like a good idea.
It's too bad that the Sevcon requires a double throw switch. There would be a bigger choice in single pole momentary push-button switches but one cn always use a relay. But extra stuff to mount and wire.
Trikester
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Hear's a "heads up" in an e-mail I got from Harlan when I was inquiring about adding the switch to my 2014 DS. Anybody modifying a 2014 or later bike will need to look into this.
I'm not sure if there is an extra Digital Input pre-wired like on your other bikes since I believe they are using the one you previously used for Custom Mode, but if you download the Sevcon manual you can find where the other DI/O ports are and which ones are available.
Harlan
Trikester
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Hear's a "heads up" in an e-mail I got from Harlan when I was inquiring about adding the switch to my 2014 DS. Anybody modifying a 2014 or later bike will need to look into this.
Anyone seriously going to do this mod themselves would be foolish to not download the Gen4 product manual (I have version 3 where page pg 35 is pin assignments) given they will have to also modify their programing with DVT (see attached screenshot for example PIN out screen programing)
Dig 5 (pin 20) / 6 (pin 9) / 2 (pin 30) are not used on a 2013 bike. You will have to check on any bike in DVT before splicing into anything or adding another pin to your 35 pin connector ;)
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Yes! The wiring I used on the 2013 may be different on other years or models, as the heads up from Harlan says. I'm using the Gen 4 manual (downloaded in 2013), even as we speak, in trying to determine what I need to do on my new 2014 DS. In their example they use digital input pin # 30 as an example for a reverse signal. As far as I know now, it is an unused input on my 2014 but I still need to confirm that. As Burton states there are other unused digital inputs on the Sevcon. Any one of them can be used for the reverse input signal and programmed to recognize that command.
The advantage in using pin 19 on the 2013 was that it was wired to the MBB but was not being used, Harlan warns that may no longer be the case for 2014 and later. That existing connection provided a wired connector pin on the Sevcon to be able to cut and connect to the switch's reverse pin. However, with the other unused digital inputs not having wires on them already, presents the problem of how to get an appropriate crimp pin to wire and insert in the connector. I don't know where to find a supplier for the pin. Anybody know?
This time I will be using a momentary push-button switch, on the left bar, held down by my left thumb to keep it in reverse. When released it will go back to forward. This leaves all of the rest of my hand free to grip. Since there is little downside to accidentally putting it in reverse while moving forward (just causes regen slowing) I'm not concerned about an inadvertent actuation of the switch (like mistaking it for the horn button) while riding.
Trikester
BTW - I've already experienced difficulty in pushing my 400 lb DS backward in soft terrain especially with an up-slope. I've almost dropped it a couple of times and I've only had it a couple of months. :-[ This bike cries out for reverse capability! 8)
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I don't know where to find a supplier for the pin. Anybody know?
Already have done that work for ya ;)
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3987.msg25494#msg25494 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3987.msg25494#msg25494)
I have a feeling pin 30 will be the go to no matter what as you don't need to worry about if pin 19 is active. I haven't set up the same switch as you YET but I have a feeling you could even tell the switch in DVT to override the forward switch when pressed.
But, again, this is something you should ease into. Get DVT / IXXAT and learn about it, back up your settings before touching anything. Then once you have a backup and feel you know what is what use guides here to help you go through adding the switch. Trust me it will be easier than adding a clutch "footbrake" ;)
Or, just get someone in the know *cough Harlan* to do it :D
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Thanks Burton. Unfortunately the Mouser web site is down right now. I hope they get it going again soon.
I did check my 2014 and pin 30 is vacant. I think it does make sense to use that pin 30 for reverse since anyone referring to the Sevcon manual sees it labeled reverse in their example. That keeps everything straight. It does require getting the connector pin, however.
I'm not ready to go variable regen with using a DVT yet, but I'll certainly be considering it for the future. Right now I just want to not look like I never rode a motorcycle before while trying to push my 400 pound bike backward through deep grass, loose dirt, or sand. :-[ I've been spoiled by having reverse on my FX and e-trike.
Zero really should be putting reverse capability on at least the heavier dual sports where it could be parked in soft terrain.
Reminds me that I haven't made a "big foot" plate for my side stand yet. Gotta do that!
Trikester
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Mouser Part #: 571-776164-1
Manufacturer Part #: 776164-1
Manufacturer: TE Connectivity
Description: Automotive Connectors PLG 35 POS F/H BLK
Mouser seems up for me :/
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Harlan e-mailed me that he has old harnesses we can cannibalize for a pin with a wire on it.
Here are a couple of photos of my switch mount taken before painting black so the bracket shows up well. I made an aluminum spacer to fill the recess hole where the bolt head had been. Made a mounting bracket from thin aluminum that mounts under the bolt head. I didn't have to make any mods in the plastic housing, so it's still stock.
The switch is a SPDT momentary with snap action.
Trikester
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I am about to install a reverse switch on a 2015 S.
I know i have to activate one of the digital input on the sevcon with DVT.
Anybody here already succeded to do it on a 2015?
I am just curious about the diff between the 2013-2014 and the 2015 regarding that mod.
I tought it would only require to install a switch on a not assigned input digital pin on the sevcon, selecting the option REVERSE in the DVT related pin assignment and that's all?.. i'll have to look in the schematics why it is required to use a DPDT switch with one of the wiper contact to the MBB...
Doc
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I tought it would only require to install a switch on a not assigned input digital pin on the sevcon, selecting the option REVERSE in the DVT related pin assignment and that's all?.. i'll have to look in the schematics why it is required to use a DPDT switch with one of the wiper contact to the MBB...
That is my understanding, but have been heavily distracted with other (worthwhile and non-worthwhile) projects to get to this. I have the police plastics switch panel to apply for it.
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Hello
Old topic that caught my interest.
I bought a Zero FX 2017 and when riding it in the forest I would really like to have a reverse mode when I need to turn around.
Does anybody have some news about making this modification?
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I'll let someone else talk about rewiring if they'd like but this is a "emergency" technique since we do have softer kick stands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-ZMEKP8D2c
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I'll let someone else talk about rewiring if they'd like but this is a "emergency" technique since we do have softer kick stands.
The problem there is that it takes more side room than using a reverse gear. IMO, all electric bikes should have a reverse gear, as it's usually very simple to just add a switch and wire and very little other stuff.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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That's true and I agree but like your Energica also has software to limit your speed to a safe very slow speed. So a little more involved but yes it would be nice.
Of course on a long super tight dirt track reversing down hills and around other obstacles means bad news is likely, so just having a reverse won't fix all of the problems.
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That's true and I agree but like your Energica also has software to limit your speed to a safe very slow speed. So a little more involved but yes it would be nice.
Shouldn't be more complicated than have it switch to the custom mode with very low values when in reverse.
But with the good slow speed throttle response on Zeros in ECO mode , IMO, just forcing to eco mode would be good enough for a reverse.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The unofficial manual has a write-up for this based on this thread and my own experience on the 2016 DSR which Hollywood Electrics enabled: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Implement_Reverse_Mode (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Implement_Reverse_Mode)
I really enjoyed having a reverse mode, particularly since my house is on a slowly subsiding side of a hill so my garage floor is uneven and the side street in front is extremely uneven. It's good to hone your technique and skills, but the assist is really helpful, and probably even more while on trails.
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What does this mean?
"Recent Zero models (2016? seems IPM-related) have a glitch when reverse mode is configured using the standard Sevcon recommendation."
Does that mean the reverse cannot be added to 2017 and later models? What is the "glitch" ?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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What does is mean?
"Recent Zero models (2016? seems IPM-related) have a glitch when reverse mode is configured using the standard Sevcon recommendation."
Does that mean the reverse cannot be added to 2017 and later models? What is the "glitch" ?
It means that it can, but you need to use Sevcon's DVT tool to apply a custom profile (DCF) to get it to operate correctly.
With the naive non-IPM profile on my 2016 DSR, we performed a wheel spin up test and found that after a second or two in reverse, the wheel would "hunt" or "toggle" gently back and forth. It was conflicting with another configuration parameter.
I have a copy of it for reference but have been unsure whether to share it per se or how to document the workaround reasonably.
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It means that it can, but you need to use Sevcon's DVT tool to apply a custom profile (DCF) to get it to operate correctly.
Zero could probably sell a few more bikes if they add in a reverse. That was one of the main reasons I purchased my Energica.
But now that I have found how useful it is, I want it on all of my bikes! Normally not needed if one is careful where they park while riding, but sure is handy to back in and out of the garage when the very start of the driveway is on a hill, as it is here.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I agree that Zero’s models would be better and sell more easily with the reverse feature, but every conversation I’ve had with Zero people has been myopic. I cited the Energica functionality to some who weren’t even aware of it.
Every time I visit Zero headquarters, some employee doesn’t even recognize my aftermarket fitments like the Madstad screen. I wish Zero people would show a little more curiosity and awareness.
In the end, I own the bike I can fix and make work for me and others.
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I agree that Zero’s models would be better and sell more easily with the reverse feature
That had "zero" impact in me buying one. If they had competition from a dozen other brands, then maybe it would raise an eyebrow.
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I agree that Zero’s models would be better and sell more easily with the reverse feature
That had "zero" impact in me buying one. If they had competition from a dozen other brands, then maybe it would raise an eyebrow.
This is not about you or others who bought a Zero. It’s about what factors Zero might be ignoring that might increase their appeal.
The bikes would instill more confidence and affiliation if the manufacturer attended to some features to make the bike easier to work with.