ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on July 28, 2020, 06:28:32 AM
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Last night I plugged in my 2018 Zero S into my garage 110V outlet before I went to bed. This afternoon (7/27/20) when I went into the garage to take the bike out for a lunch ride the warning light was flashing and the bike was only at a 93% charge instead of the expected 100%. I turned the key off, waited 30 seconds and then turned it back on and it appeared to be back to normal.
I took it for a ride but I thought it might be a good idea to dump the log and see if someone here might be able to figure out what happened. It behaved perfectly normal all afternoon but I wanted to be sure. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
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The only error code it's throwing is low motor voltage (0x3100 and 0x45c) which is presumably because the module (battery) isn't connecting, but no mention of why that would happen. After giving that error it does then say "Battery module XX contactor closed" (where XX is a number) and then gives the pack voltage, but then gives the error again when the Sevcon turns back on. The numbers range from 36 to 242 so I'm not really sure what those could be referring to. I would guess that because it happened while the bike was stationary and charging and managed to (if only briefly) reconnect without being moved that it's not a hardware connection issue.
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I saw that and it didn't make any sense. We're having a heat wave here right now but night time temperatures are only in the low 80s so that shouldn't be outside of the proper temperature range to cause an issue. I know people in the southwestern States routinely see much higher temperatures. I haven't plugged it back in since this happened. When I initially plugged it in the other night, the battery was down to 27%, so it did charge up MOST of the way before it started flaking out. Hope someone has some ideas. I pulled the battery log too, but didn't really see anything that looked out of the ordinary there.
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Why don't you just try to charge to 100% ?
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Last night I plugged in my 2018 Zero S into my garage 110V outlet before I went to bed. This afternoon (7/27/20) when I went into the garage to take the bike out for a lunch ride the warning light was flashing and the bike was only at a 93% charge instead of the expected 100%. I turned the key off, waited 30 seconds and then turned it back on and it appeared to be back to normal.
I took it for a ride but I thought it might be a good idea to dump the log and see if someone here might be able to figure out what happened. It behaved perfectly normal all afternoon but I wanted to be sure. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
Your OBC could be crapping out. A common symptom is low DC output voltage so the battery never charges to full. If you have a Delta-Q charger around, it should then charge to 100%.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The bike is still under warranty so I'll try charging it up using just the onboard charger and see what happens again. If it fails again, it's off to the dealer for however long that'll take.
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Plugged it in for the night. Let's see what it looks like in the morning...
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Plugged it in for the night. Let's see what it looks like in the morning...
Everything looks good so far. Bike was at 100% and everything was green (no flashing warning lights). Never heard back from either Zero or my dealer...
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Everything looks good so far. Bike was at 100% and everything was green (no flashing warning lights). Never heard back from either Zero or my dealer...
I just reread your original message. Somehow, I didn't notice about that alarm last time and how key on and off fixed it. The exact same thing has happened to me a few times with my DS when it had its old battery.
It only happened occasionally and never since the battery was replaced under warranty.
But it started to happen when I started to notice shorter charge times to full (when it didn't alarm) and much reduced range, especially at higher speeds.
I am not saying it is a symptom of a bad battery, I am only telling you my own experience with the same issue, so it makes me wonder if it's a possibility.
In my case, it could have been the way the BMS was reacting with a battery issue. But it didn't happen often but the first time I noticed it was around the same time I was expecting I had shorter range and faster charge times than usual.
And what a BIG difference the new battery made in range, especially at higher speeds, but it's also now a 7.2 instead of a 6.5 KWH.
-Don- Reno, NV
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One more thing . .I just did the FW updates on both of my Zeros. I noticed these updates said they were related to the BMS. Be sure you have the latest FW updates.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yup... I'm current. The battery log didn't show anything that appeared to be out of the ordinary. Hey, I wouldn't mind getting a free upgrade from my 13kWh battery to a 14.4kWh one!
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Hey, I wouldn't mind getting a free upgrade from my 13kWh battery to a 14.4kWh one!
Yeah, I hope my two batteries in my SR crap out in time! But so far, they are fine.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well, it happened again so I contacted my dealer and sent him my MBB log. They'll talk to Zero and see what they think. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Doing an experiment tonight. Charging it up using JUST the external "Quick Charger." It only maxes out at 10 amps instead of 12-13 like the onboard charger, but I have all night. Let's see what it looks like in the morning.
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Well, aren't the Quick Charger units 1000W?
-Crissa
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Well, aren't the Quick Charger units 1000W?
-Crissa
Yep, the OBC is around 1.3KW and the DeltaQ chargers are around an even KW in output power.
Ten amps is about right for the input current draw on the QCs and around 13 amps for the OBC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Well, the bike was up to 100% this morning and no flashing lights so this will work as a circumvention until I hear back from Zero. Good thing I had that charger on hand!
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Just don't jump to any conclusions and assume your OBC is dying, because that did charge to 100% too with no issues at one point. Keep using the Delta for now and if/when the issue happens again that will rule out the charger being at fault (well, unless there's a connection issue between the OBC and the battery and not an issue with the charger itself).
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The latest MBB log is in my dealer's hands and they will be communicating with Zero. I'll check with them this afternoon to see if they've heard anything back.
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Well, aren't the Quick Charger units 1000W?
-Crissa
Yep, the OBC is around 1.3KW and the DeltaQ chargers are around an even KW in output power.
Ten amps is about right for the input current draw on the QCs and around 13 amps for the OBC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I have never seen 13 amps from the OBC on my Kill-A-Watt meter. The maximum draw from my wall outlet of my new charger is 11.85 amps, right before it shuts down. I'll let you figure out what the actual amps to the battery pack is, but I know for sure that some of that power is turned into heat. ;)
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Well, aren't the Quick Charger units 1000W?
-Crissa
Yep, the OBC is around 1.3KW and the DeltaQ chargers are around an even KW in output power.
Ten amps is about right for the input current draw on the QCs and around 13 amps for the OBC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I have never seen 13 amps from the OBC on my Kill-A-Watt meter. The maximum draw from my wall outlet of my new charger is 11.85 amps, right before it shuts down. I'll let you figure out what the actual amps to the battery pack is, but I know for sure that some of that power is turned into heat. ;)
That's pretty much bang on 1300W at 110V, at a typical efficiency of 92% that's 1200W to the battery (the app should show around 10-11A). Through the app I've seen up to around 1500W and charging amps around 12-13A.
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That's pretty much bang on 1300W at 110V, at a typical efficiency of 92% that's 1200W to the battery (the app should show around 10-11A). Through the app I've seen up to around 1500W and charging amps around 12-13A.
In the USA it's really closer to 120 VAC these days, but many still call it "110". I have never seen it that low anywhere. In fact, around 122 VAC (unloaded) is quite common, 117 VAC is average and that is what I just measured here. 117 VAC at 13 amps is 1,521 watts AC input, so around 1500 W input should be expected. 1369 DC watts output if 90% efficient, with around 137 watts wasted in heat.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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That's pretty much bang on 1300W at 110V, at a typical efficiency of 92% that's 1200W to the battery (the app should show around 10-11A). Through the app I've seen up to around 1500W and charging amps around 12-13A.
In the USA it's really closer to 120 VAC these days, but many still call it "110". I have never seen it that low anywhere. In fact, around 122 VAC (unloaded) is quite common, 117 VAC is average and that is what I just measured here. 117 VAC at 13 amps is 1,521 watts AC input, so around 1500 W input should be expected. 1369 DC watts output if 90% efficient, with around 137 watts wasted in heat.
-Don- Auburn, CA
If he's getting 120V then he's pulling 1422W and putting 1308W to the battery which is much more reasonable and to be expected.
Here in the UK we also see around 240V instead of 220V (it should be 230V +10% -6%, so anywhere from 216V to 253V).
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I have never seen 13 amps from the OBC on my Kill-A-Watt meter. The maximum draw from my wall outlet of my new charger is 11.85 amps, right before it shuts down. I'll let you figure out what the actual amps to the battery pack is, but I know for sure that some of that power is turned into heat. ;)
The current drops down quite a bit near the end. Check at around 50% SOC and see what the current is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Just so it doesn't look like I only post to argue, Don and TheRan here match my observations ^-^ So they're on the money.
-Crissa
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Just so it doesn't look like I only post to argue .....
-Crissa
I believe that that horse left the barn 1000 posts ago 😁
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I have never seen 13 amps from the OBC on my Kill-A-Watt meter. The maximum draw from my wall outlet of my new charger is 11.85 amps, right before it shuts down. I'll let you figure out what the actual amps to the battery pack is, but I know for sure that some of that power is turned into heat. ;)
The current drops down quite a bit near the end. Check at around 50% SOC and see what the current is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
My current draw at 50% is about 10.5 amps for my 2018 S. I have watched the current draw as SOC reaches 100% and right as it shuts off. (I also like to watch paint dry. ;) ) There is no tapering. The charger just shuts down instantly and the power drops to 5 watts as it goes on standby. When I then check my cell balance I see 2-3 mV. Perhaps my bike's BMS has decided that my battery pack doesn't need an balancing regimen. That was not the case with my 2014 S. It would taper down for a while before the charger shut down.
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My current draw at 50% is about 10.5 amps for my 2018 S. I have watched the current draw as SOC reaches 100% and right as it shuts off. (I also like to watch paint dry. ;) ) There is no tapering. The charger just shuts down instantly and the power drops to 5 watts as it goes on standby. When I then check my cell balance I see 2-3 mV. Perhaps my bike's BMS has decided that my battery pack doesn't need an balancing regimen. That was not the case with my 2014 S. It would taper down for a while before the charger shut down.
Come to think about it, perhaps no need for it to lower much when you're only charging with 1.3KW from the OBC. I usually charge with more than 6KW and the drop in charge rate is quite noticeable near the end. Even lower if I start the charge at a high SOC. Not sure what the BMS is doing, or perhaps it's the charger program. Perhaps it has a lot to do with temperature as well. But if I try to start a charge at 80% SOC at 6KW, I will be lucky if it charges at 2 KW. But if I am at 50%, it will still continue to charge at above 6WK when I get to 80% SOC. I do NOT claim to know what is going on, it's just what I have noticed. Perhaps my Elcons do not like to charge fully when they are started at a higher voltage. Or could the BMS be doing such? I really have no idea what causes such.
But I now know to NOT recharge until I get below 80% SOC. But there are times when I am going far enough that I want all the charge possible when I see a charge station on the way. So then adding the Elcons make very little difference as most of the charging is then done with the OBC anyway. So I can still charge below 2 KW, and then I have little need to get the Elcons out, but it takes too long to charge at that rate when on a trip, so I try to avoid it and take my chances on my range by riding a bit slower than I normally would.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Update: FINALLY heard back. Zero wants me to bring the bike into the dealership so they can trouble shoot the problem. Lord knows how long that's gonna take and how long it'll be off the road. On the bright side, this IS why I have more than one motorcycle in my garage. Guess the XMAX will be "in service" until I get the S back. Dropping it off on Saturday. The XMAX needs a new rear tire, but that's something that I can wait for when it finally comes in.
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Well, I ended up bringing the bike in yesterday as this is the last month on the warranty and I won't be around for the next couple of weeks (heading to Indianapolis on Wednesday on the K1200LT). The bike has not glitched out using the OBC since the last time though I've been using it every time TRYING to get it to act up again. The dealer will work with Zero to run a full battery of diagnostics and see what's what. The fact that it glitched out twice in succession has me concerned and I don't understand why it hasn't happened again. Talk about electric gremlins!!
Other than that, the bike has been pretty reliable and trouble-free other than that weird problem with the belt last year. So far the new one is holding up (but to prevent the backing from drying out I've been wiping it down with Armor-All once a month just in case. Doing so also forces me to check its condition).
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Picked up the bike today. Apparently flashing the latest firmware wiped out the logs. They did hook up with Zero to run diagnostics but were unable to find anything wrong. Got it back and keeping my fingers crossed as Monday will be two years to the day that I rode the bike home from the dealership. Felt "odd" riding it after putting almost 2,000 miles on the K1200LT going out to Indianapolis and back. Looking forward to reacquainting myself with it.