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[Killroy]

Matthew 7:15

[Shadow]

I'm not sure a Leaf is the best choice, but I am tired of burning gasoline to commute around.

I have a 50mi commute to work, I can definitely charge there while I'm working. However sometimes there are snow conditions and tire chains required. Also I seem to find the Zero DSR is in the shop a lot and I would need a way to haul it to and from the dealership for service.

My trusty Subaru needs some repairs and I was hoping to make it last until I can buy a Tesla Model 3. I don't think the Subaru will make it to then without $1000's in repairs.

Would it be worthwhile looking into getting a used Leaf?  Is there another suggestion?

[buutvrij for life]

Maybe, it's best to cut the increasing flow of tax-payers money to the fossil fuel industries as well. After decades of spending hundreds of billions dollarsubsidies ANNUALLY for exxon, Shell and other poluters in this world, one might think that's about enough.

But no. A guy named Rex Tillerson is coming along. This asshole will make sure americans keep paying Big Oil.
Yes, i'm paying too. The Netherlands; 5.5 to 7 billion a year subsidies for international oilcompanies. Tax payers money leaving my country.

I don't mind elon is getting his 50 cents compared to Big Oil and the Koch f@ckers.

[Low On Cash]

Maybe, it's best to cut the increasing flow of tax-payers money to the fossil fuel industries as well. After decades of spending hundreds of billions dollarsubsidies ANNUALLY for exxon, Shell and other poluters in this world, one might think that's about enough.

But no. A guy named Rex Tillerson is coming along. This asshole will make sure americans keep paying Big Oil.
Yes, i'm paying too. The Netherlands; 5.5 to 7 billion a year subsidies for international oilcompanies. Tax payers money leaving my country.

I don't mind elon is getting his 50 cents compared to Big Oil and the Koch f@ckers.

You're 110% correct we finally get fuel to around $2.00 and now the very criminal who made us pay $5.00 a gallon is back in the circuit to raise it back off. This is like using convicts for a jury.

[Doug S]

The 2170 cells could easily be adapted to the Zero,  since the energy density is high they could fit in the Zeros battery space and bring the cost of the bike down $3-5,000. As we all know, Zero is charging $1000 kw - their tank battery confirms that.

No. You're still not cluing in. Cell density is high on the 21-70, but they don't pack together as densely as a rectangular cell. You're confusing cell energy density with overall BATTERY PACK density -- they're two very different things. You could NOT make a battery pack equivalent to Zero's with any cylindrical cell existing today, simply because there's too much empty space between the cylindrical cells when you package them together into a series/parallel array. Prismatic or pouch cells, which are rectangular in shape, simply pack together better. The new cell is incrementally better in energy density, but not nearly enough to make up for the big disparity in packing density.

I'm not going to bother educating you about Elon Musk and/or Tesla (they're not one and the same thing). You're welcome to stay willfully ignorant if you wish. But you don't really expect to find many sympathetic Trump voters here on this forum, do you?

[Electric Terry]

But you don't really expect to find many sympathetic Trump voters here on this forum, do you?

"sympathetic trump" is sort of an oxymoron isn't it? I don't think its possible that exists.

[Low On Cash]

The 2170 cells could easily be adapted to the Zero,  since the energy density is high they could fit in the Zeros battery space and bring the cost of the bike down $3-5,000. As we all know, Zero is charging $1000 kw - their tank battery confirms that.

No. You're still not cluing in. Cell density is high on the 21-70, but they don't pack together as densely as a rectangular cell. You're confusing cell energy density with overall BATTERY PACK density -- they're two very different things. You could NOT make a battery pack equivalent to Zero's with any cylindrical cell existing today, simply because there's too much empty space between the cylindrical cells when you package them together into a series/parallel array. Prismatic or pouch cells, which are rectangular in shape, simply pack together better. The new cell is incrementally better in energy density, but not nearly enough to make up for the big disparity in packing density.

I'm not going to bother educating you about Elon Musk and/or Tesla (they're not one and the same thing). You're welcome to stay willfully ignorant if you wish. But you don't really expect to find many sympathetic Trump voters here on this forum, do you?

Doug "Read My Lips" because of the higher density/energy they take less space and therefore will fit.  In addition, there is also plenty of additional space or did you forget about about the tank battery. In any case, no matter how Zero has to cram them in there, we don't care since it will lower the price of the bike $3-5,000 - that is unless Zero pulls an Elon on us and doesn't pass the saving. 

Regarding your genius buddy Elon; my best advise is to "Study Up" before you start making broad statements about something you have no knowledge about, you don't have a clue regarding his crude business tactics of screwing the US tax payers out of money we gave him to start his business but I'll excuse your ignorance on the manner!

Regards

[Low On Cash]

I won't even begin on Elon's Space X progect which we're funding for him . . .

[ElectricZen]

Wow! The amount of disinformation being spread here about Tesla and Elon is some CNN level shit.  All wrong!  All unsubstantiated.  Suggesting the 21-70s would work in a Zero?  Haha.  Someone wasn't very good with their legos as a kid!

And posting a headline doesn't make it true... Do you even science bro?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Doug S]

Zen...don't feed the trolls. I gave this guy a little bit of benefit of the doubt because for a while, he did honestly seem like he was interested in EVs, but he's shown beyond any doubt that he's a troll. Ignore him and he'll go back to his snug and cozy NRA forum.

[Low On Cash]

Let's get back to the topic guys - I know the truth hurts . . . .

[Electric Terry]

Doug "Read My Lips" because of the higher density/energy they take less space and therefore will fit.  In addition, there is also plenty of additional space or did you forget about about the tank battery. In any case, no matter how Zero has to cram them in there, we don't care since it will lower the price of the bike $3-5,000 - that is unless Zero pulls an Elon on us and doesn't pass the saving. 

Regarding your genius buddy Elon; my best advise is to "Study Up" before you start making broad statements about something you have no knowledge about, you don't have a clue regarding his crude business tactics of screwing the US tax payers out of money we gave him to start his business but I'll excuse your ignorance on the manner!

Regards

I had to do the math Low on Cash, you are right in one way, but it wouldn't work and here's why

Take your 2170, the interior volume is
(21mm/2)^2*3.14*700mm=242330 mm^3

The same amount of space for battery a Zero would take up is
21mm^2*700mm = 308,700 mm^3

or about 30% more.  This means the volumetric density of the 21700 would have to be 30% higher than the Farasis cell.

The current Farasis cell is about 500 wh/L
The 3500 mAh Panasonic is about 700 wh/L

So initially it looks better, but they aren't packed wall to wall, there is some space for the cooling channels that don't just fit in the void locations.

But here's the kicker...
The 3500 Ah Panasonic cells Tesla uses have a max discharge of 3C
The current generation Farasis cell is 10C

So while the energy/volume is a wash pretty much, the bike would be over 3 times slower
There is a trade off between energy density and power density

If Tesla wants to continue to give acceleration updates, they will need to move towards a more power dense chemistry like Zero is using.  If they did that they could supercharge even faster, and accelerate quicker, but they will lose a little range, or what is more likely is both will increase a little instead of energy increasing a lot.

Bottom line is you would need over 3 times the volume on the Zero to get the same power if you were using Tesla cells.

So the answer is no.  Zero has the best possible pack for a motorcycle considering all the space restraints.

Does that make sense?


As far as the last statement, subsidizing new technology is not new.  We still have to subsidize the oil and gas industry and they have been around a long time.  It's something I have to remind some of my Trump supporting friends sometimes when they say we shouldn't have incentives for solar or electric vehicles.  However its hard for them to understand.  The common trend with them quite often is "low on brains"

lol, sorry. I had to, I'm laughing too hard not to share with others here.  I know you and most people on this forum are smart enough not to have voted for Trump so I'll leave it for others to read.  Luckily we have a fairly highly educated membership group here, so I'm guessing probably no Trump people, and to any of you who are, forgive me, not everyone is in that category, just seems like those I know personally who like him, also aren't the sharpest tacks in the box.  I also just like to joke about him sometimes.  He dislikes EV's and wants to bring back more oil, and coal instead, so you can imagine why I'm a little frustrated with him as a big EV supporter myself and big advocate of protecting the environment, and his appointment to the EPA was a guy who sued the EPA saying climate change isn't real.  His appt to the Dept of Energy is someone who couldn't remember what the Dept of energy was in a debate!   To appoint these people? I mean how dumb can you be? I want to start the catch phrase "Dumb as Trump" sometimes.  Ahh, don't get me started.  I could go on forever about how he's proven that inheriting a lot of money can make up for a very low IQ and NPD.  (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) 

I like ElectricZen's comment and I wish I could say it to him "Do you even science bro?"  Hmmm.  Sorry for the rant, not sure how I got off topic there.  I think the article you posted sounded like it was written by someone misinformed about understanding how things work.   I'll bring it back to "No" the 2170's would not be better in a Zero.  Sorry about the rest of that.

[Erasmo]

I'm not sure a Leaf is the best choice, but I am tired of burning gasoline to commute around.

I have a 50mi commute to work, I can definitely charge there while I'm working. However sometimes there are snow conditions and tire chains required. Also I seem to find the Zero DSR is in the shop a lot and I would need a way to haul it to and from the dealership for service.

My trusty Subaru needs some repairs and I was hoping to make it last until I can buy a Tesla Model 3. I don't think the Subaru will make it to then without $1000's in repairs.

Would it be worthwhile looking into getting a used Leaf?  Is there another suggestion?

Leafs have no problems with snow chains(and you can preheat the car while charging). And towing isn't a problem either, hell Nissan even uses them to tow their cars from the production line to the docks:



There are lots of plug-in hybrids that should take you almost to work on electric mode but then you're lugging around a whole petrol drive train that you barely use. I don't know your local market etc. but my gut feelings says that the Leaf is a good choice.

I presume it's the battery pack that overheats? It almost has to be, since the motor and controller are externally accessible and something could certainly be done to increase cooling there...water spray if nothing else. Not too much you can do about the battery overheating though, short of replacing it with something designed for easier cooling, which would be a shame. Brandon told me that when he races on Pike's Peak, he packs ice around the battery pack to cool it down. I don't know what else you could do.

Liquid nitrogen perhaps?

[Low On Cash]

Doug "Read My Lips" because of the higher density/energy they take less space and therefore will fit.  In addition, there is also plenty of additional space or did you forget about about the tank battery. In any case, no matter how Zero has to cram them in there, we don't care since it will lower the price of the bike $3-5,000 - that is unless Zero pulls an Elon on us and doesn't pass the saving. 

Regarding your genius buddy Elon; my best advise is to "Study Up" before you start making broad statements about something you have no knowledge about, you don't have a clue regarding his crude business tactics of screwing the US tax payers out of money we gave him to start his business but I'll excuse your ignorance on the manner!

Regards

I had to do the math Low on Cash, you are right in one way, but it wouldn't work and here's why

Take your 2170, the interior volume is
(21mm/2)^2*3.14*700mm=242330 mm^3

The same amount of space for battery a Zero would take up is
21mm^2*700mm = 308,700 mm^3

or about 30% more.  This means the volumetric density of the 21700 would have to be 30% higher than the Farasis cell.

The current Farasis cell is about 500 wh/L
The 3500 mAh Panasonic is about 700 wh/L

So initially it looks better, but they aren't packed wall to wall, there is some space for the cooling channels that don't just fit in the void locations.

But here's the kicker...
The 3500 Ah Panasonic cells Tesla uses have a max discharge of 3C
The current generation Farasis cell is 10C

So while the energy/volume is a wash pretty much, the bike would be over 3 times slower
There is a trade off between energy density and power density

If Tesla wants to continue to give acceleration updates, they will need to move towards a more power dense chemistry like Zero is using.  If they did that they could supercharge even faster, and accelerate quicker, but they will lose a little range, or what is more likely is both will increase a little instead of energy increasing a lot.

Bottom line is you would need over 3 times the volume on the Zero to get the same power if you were using Tesla cells.

So the answer is no.  Zero has the best possible pack for a motorcycle considering all the space restraints.

Does that make sense?


As far as the last statement, subsidizing new technology is not new.  We still have to subsidize the oil and gas industry and they have been around a long time.  It's something I have to remind some of my Trump supporting friends sometimes when they say we shouldn't have incentives for solar or electric vehicles.  However its hard for them to understand.  The common trend with them quite often is "low on brains"

lol, sorry. I had to, I'm laughing too hard not to share with others here.  I know you and most people on this forum are smart enough not to have voted for Trump so I'll leave it for others to read.  Luckily we have a fairly highly educated membership group here, so I'm guessing probably no Trump people, and to any of you who are, forgive me, not everyone is in that category, just seems like those I know personally who like him, also aren't the sharpest tacks in the box.  I also just like to joke about him sometimes.  He dislikes EV's and wants to bring back more oil, and coal instead, so you can imagine why I'm a little frustrated with him as a big EV supporter myself and big advocate of protecting the environment, and his appointment to the EPA was a guy who sued the EPA saying climate change isn't real.  His appt to the Dept of Energy is someone who couldn't remember what the Dept of energy was in a debate!   To appoint these people? I mean how dumb can you be? I want to start the catch phrase "Dumb as Trump" sometimes.  Ahh, don't get me started.  I could go on forever about how he's proven that inheriting a lot of money can make up for a very low IQ and NPD.  (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) 

I like ElectricZen's comment and I wish I could say it to him "Do you even science bro?"  Hmmm.  Sorry for the rant, not sure how I got off topic there.  I think the article you posted sounded like it was written by someone misinformed about understanding how things work.   I'll bring it back to "No" the 2170's would not be better in a Zero.  Sorry about the rest of that.

Terry

Thanks for the post of the detailed information and the sizing up of the 2170 in comparison to the density of the Farasis pack. The initial idea of the post was more in the scope of the cost of the Farassis cells being more competitive now that there will be serious competition with the Tesla cells. Regretfully this thread went south when a user got his feeling hurt because he was mis-informed on the Tesla site what a great guy Elon was.

Since you're in tune to the physical size of the cells in a Zero application - just how much space and more importantly how much weight do you feel it would take to do a 2170 installation in a Zero. As we are all aware the cost of a Zero is its own biggest hindrance to most riders. The 2170 would be a game changer in the bikes price. Using your calculations would it be possible to get a 13K  pack in the space of the frame?

If not - even if we dedicated the tank space to cells to reduce the cost of the Zero it would seem to me it would be a major advantage since then the "Electric Bike" could be more competitive on the ICE market. 

I feel strongly that in due time be it Zero, a rider or another manufacture, we will indeed see 2170 powered bikes. As you are aware while the cylinder shape of the cells takes more space, however the design in nature would lend to simple air cooling / heating of the cells which would be a major advantage to our application.

Regards

[Richard230]

I still don't think that the Tesla Gigafactory cells are going to be offered to any company not associated with the factory any time soon.  The companies that have an interest in the factory need the cells for their own products and are not going to want to hand them out to the public until all of their battery needs are satisfied - and that could take a while.   

So this discussion, while technically interesting, is probably raising a moot point, unless the cells were sourced from some other manufacturer.

As for me, I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump.  I voted for Gary Johnson the Libertarian guy who didn't know where Aleppo was.  Kind of a waste of my vote I know, but I felt I had to make a (spitting into the wind) point about our two-party system.