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[Crissa]

Noted, Don, that you didn't support your position.

I can find articles discussing dendrite formation under high charging, but all of those also are focused on charging to full.  And cell size isn't pack size.  And discharge temperature isn't charging temperature.  They all matter and they all lead to degradation.

The danger from dc charging is going to be more leaving the pack in an extreme soc position more than the charging itself.

If you're not charging at top twenty percent or leaving it sitting at that bottom, then no, there's no evidence the higher charging does more damage than riding on the freeway.  There is some lab evidence that babying a pack can double its life... But no such evidence in a practical setting.  Just because we know that hitting the track all the time can reduce battery life does not mean avoiding dc charging will further increase the lifetime of the pack.

So warning people away from it is needless.  Unless they're speed junkies.

-Crissa

[princec]

Then why do Energica warn people away from it, when it's a key selling point of their range?

Anyways... AIUI, the problem was that the heat caused by DCFC was the other issue apart from dendrites. Tesla worked around with with state of the art cooling and software and it's unlikely Energica have either as nobody else in the industry is even close to Tesla in battery tech.

Cas

[ultrarnr]

There is no question that Energica could do liquid cooling on their battery but the trade-off being an increase in size, weight and price just so you could charge a few minutes faster under high temperature conditions. High temps from my experience being in the 90s. That is when multiple DCFC seemed to start slowing down due to the battery getting warm. I am really not sure the trade-offs are worth it. Others may disagree.

[Sklith]

I wonder what the optimal speed & power demand on the Energica battery pack is best for cooling it after DCFC. Last weekend, it was 95f while I fast charged to 96%, and the battery temp indicator never went from yellow to green while driving 70 mph with about 13 kW of power demand on the highway. Maybe if I had dropped my speed down to 60 mph it would cool faster since I'd drastically reduce the power demand on the battery pack.

[Richard230]

Here is the latest regarding H-D's marketing and financial "rewire" plan. No mention of Livewire plans or production: 
https://www.motorcycle.com/features/harley-davidson-provides-update-on-rewire-new-hardwire-plan-coming-in-q4.html

[Richard230]

Here is the latest new electric bike from H-D. They certainly are moving quickly to get into the e-bike market.  : 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/10/28/harley-davidson-moves-quickly-launch-new-e-bicycle-brand/3746133001/

[Oldun]

Heh :-) just read the whole thread about Harley starting a restructure, except it's about charging. 

One of the things that attracted me to the LV was the 5 year warranty as well as the dealer support - down here there is zero Zero and Energica support. Overnight charging is no big deal; my gas bikes can go touring. What I really liked about the LW pre-purchase turned out to be the same things I like about it now I own one: the acceleration, the lean angle, the finish, and the quiet. I knew there was no Level 2 charging then and I don't need it now. I have made the decision to not use Level 3 unless I am stuck somewhere, mainly because the manual says not to. Manuals say a lot of things and it can be hard to differentiate the lawyerly from the engineering admonitions. I assume though that the dealer's techs can tell if I had charged Level 3 more than the 1:4 ratio recommended. Another reason IMO not to overdo it.

As for "wouldn't it be great if..." - yeah, but if we waited for the perfect machine we would never ride. Heck, just not having at my age to deal with drum brakes and carb jets and kick starts for years already is a major plus!
 

[Crissa]

They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions.  Which would be hard to do.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

Neither Energica's manual nor Don has provided evidence of Don's claim that DC charging is bad for the battery.

-Crissa

Actually, I did. The max safe cell temperature I listed here. The "yellow" on the Energica is ABOVE that safe cell temperature and it is the norm to be yellow right after a fast DC charge but  NEVER  during an AC charge.

The excess heat slowly does damage. And that comes from those battery engineers who designed the cells, and they  should know.

That doesn't mean one shouldn't fast charge. Just don't do such except when necessary.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions.  Which would be hard to do.

-Crissa

Not difficult at all when everything you do to the bike is written into a log.

When I had my bad battery replaced under warranty on my DS, the shop never tested the battery in anyway at all. All they did is sent the logs to the Zero factory and the factory was  able to determine that my battery was defective  through no fault of my own. 

Want proof? It's easy. Discharge a new Zero  battery to 0 SOC wait two or three days and then charge it to full.

Then if the battery  goes bad, try to get a warranty replacement!  Good luck, as they will know you broke the terms of the warranty.

Not a lot of privacy on electric motorcycles!

-Don- Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

They would have to prove that you specific actions caused the damage, not that you took said actions.  Which would be hard to do.

Not difficult at all when everything you do to the bike is written into a log.

No, that would prove that it happened.  Not that it was damaging.  A chance isn't proof.

Besides, warranty terms which void it under a normal, expected range of use are not allowed.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

No, that would prove that it happened.  Not that it was damaging.  A chance isn't proof.

Besides, warranty terms which void it under a normal, expected range of use are not allowed.

-Crissa

The battery warranty is void as soon as you leave it discharged for more than 24 hours, even if nothing is proved other than that. Read you Zero manual under "charging". All Zeros I have checked  have these words:

"CAUTION: Failure to follow the charging guidelines could
damage the power pack and void your power pack warranty"

" If the power pack is fully discharged, it must be charged
within 24 hours to prevent damage to the power pack."


See here, page 1.3

-Don- Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

It doesn't matter what the warranty says.  Warranty terms cannot violate the law.

And the law says they have to prove your use or modifications caused the specific damage and are not an expected use of the device.

Leaving it discharged is pretty straightforward.  That damage came from charging it vs DC fast charging?  A bit fuzzier.

-Crissa