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[JaimeC]

No test ride on the SR/F yet.  I'd actually rather try out the new SR/S.  But my next target when the weather gets regularly into the 50s again is to head upstate to the Hudson Valley and check out the Energicas.  With luck they'll have an EsseEsse9 available for a test ride (but I wouldn't mind trying any of them).

[DonTom]

No test ride on the SR/F yet.  I'd actually rather try out the new SR/S.  But my next target when the weather gets regularly into the 50s again is to head upstate to the Hudson Valley and check out the Energicas.  With luck they'll have an EsseEsse9 available for a test ride (but I wouldn't mind trying any of them).

But I was wondering how the SR/F would compare with the LW with you. I found them to have similar lack of comfort issues.

I am very happy with my Esse Esse 9. Be sure to test out the reverse and slow forward as I have found that to be very useful. Also very easy to switch to as needed. I don't think any of the other electric bikes have a reverse. And it's the most comfortable bike  of all the electric motorcycles, IMO.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[JaimeC]

I did get to SIT on an SR/F, and my hips didn't automatically lock up and cramp like they did on the Livewire, so that's a GOOD start.  I had to stand up and ride like that for several feet before I could comfortably sit down again.  Last bike to do that to me was my friend's Honda CBR1000RR, and before that another friend's Ducati 748S.  The SR/F reminded me a bit of the seating position on my old Buell 1125R.

[heroto]

I own a Zero SR/F, my second zero.
Just test drove a Livewire. Nice motorcycle!

In case you are interested, some observations:

The HD is even smoother than the zero (which is very smooth), with almost no belt whine and zero vibration. When in drive mode but not moving the HD sends a mild haptic pulse through the seat to remind you it's live (instead of potato potato potato).
Both are crazy powerful with good throttle feel. The HD felt a bit smoother but that's subjective. Both get an A+.
The HD trail is longer and the rake is the same, so the HD should handle better at high speed and the Zero better at low speed, but it felt the opposite to me.
HD bars were more comfortable for me. I just don't get the Zero sweep. YMMV of course.
Riding positions were similar. Felt a little less stretched out on the HD.
Regenerative charging with braking is goofy on the Zero (full on or full off, not progressive like in a hybrid car, and delayed on and off after brake lever action). I'm not sure if the HD even has brake regen charging.
The HD does have regen charging when coasting, fully adjustable just like a zero. Both can be set to match the ice engine braking of your preference. The HD activates the brake light when slowing with regen, smart.
(FWIW the actual effectiveness of both types of regenerative charging on my two Zeroes has been minimal, even when riding in the mountains. Kinda disappointing. Only the rear wheel contributes, maybe that's the issue.)
HD has Brembos. Zero has J Juans. Both work great.
Did not dive into suspension adjustments, sorry don't know. Factory settings were much plusher on the HD. Zero made more a track bike.
The HD is heavier, but did not notice.
HD seat was more comfortable for me.
HD has almost no built in storage and no available rack for adding a tail case. They may or may not offer a rack in the future. The passenger seat is narrow and short, would be hard to strap stuff on behind the rider. So that means a backpack for hauling and no real lockable storage. That's a huge minus for a commuter.
The Zero has a usb port in the frunk.
No frunk on the HD does make the fake tank area a lot narrower. This might enhance rider comfort, but YMMV.
Rearview mirrors on the Zero mostly show your shoulders and upper arms. You can't see what's directly behind. Rearview mirrors on the HD show your hands and wrists. Worthless.
The Zero has grip heaters that work very well for me. The livewire does not have grip heaters. They may offer them in the future. Unknown if a retrofit will be an option.
The Zero display screen seems to be a tad bigger and a bit easier to read. The HD's is still very good, and it has bluetooth that can work with your cell phone for GPS or playing music.
The Zero app is a minor PITA, but it works. Don't know about the HD interface.
Styling is a personal thing. I like them both. The Zero paint looks much better live than it looks on the website. The HD looks much better overall to me live than on their website. The phallic engine thing is much more subdued live.
Everyone knows the charging and price differences.
There are way more HD dealers, but most don't carry the livewire at present. Evidently HD requires a large commitment of time and money from a dealer before they can carry this moto. But if it catches on more, and more CCS/SAE level 3 charge stations go online, that would mean many more fast charging options, which might make 300+ miles/day practical, in contrast with Zero at present. Personally, I would be uncomfortable riding either for that many hours due to the rider position, but I think the HD would be more comfy for a long day.
Zero uses a key, HD a fob.

[DonTom]

I'm not sure if the HD even has brake regen charging.

I forgot to check for that. AFAIK, only Zero  increases the regen while braking. While my Tesla and Energica has many more KWs of deceleration regen, both have NO braking regen. No increase of regen at all while braking. I have seen almost 20KW of deceleration regen on my Esse Esse 9 (the display shows actual KW used and gained--so does the app).

But I like the way Zero does it MUCH better. I prefer a little regen while deceleration but I always want the very max possible regen  when really braking. I am surprised not all EVs increase the regen while braking. I see no reason for not having that on all EVs. The biggest gain from regen is when we MUST slow down or stop. Regen is  actually wasting power in most other cases by slowing the vehicle down--power lost that must be regained in most cases.

BTW, IMO, the  Energica Esse Esse 9 is the most comfy of ALL electric motorcycles. At least to me, compared to the others I have ridden.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

The choice to avoid braking regen is because it changes braking characteristics and most people don't use the brake until the end, which is less efficient for the regen.

It's frustrating, but understandable.  Most drivers want single-pedal driving.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

The choice to avoid braking regen is because it changes braking characteristics and most people don't use the brake until the end, which is less efficient for the regen.

It's frustrating, but understandable.  Most drivers want single-pedal driving.

-Crissa

I use braking regen  all the time on my Zeros just to increase the regen when I want. The regen comes on before the brake pads move when lightly braking. Or brake switch should be adjusted that way, IMO.

BTW, I am not so sure than most people want single-pedal driving. I am one who doesn't want such, I would rather have the way Zero does it in all my vehicles. IOW, I prefer little regen to go to the very max possible while braking. I don't like to waste more energy than necessary.

But of course, the very best way is to have an option to turn such off and on. That would keep us both happy.

And Zero DOES have that option in custom mode.

So on this issue, Zero has it best, IMO.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Crissa]

We're not typical riders, let alone drivers, Don.  We're the loudmouth nth percent on an electric bike, which is the nth percent of motorcyclists, who are the nth percent of drivers, and there's only a few portion of drivers who actually even care about their driving tool to give them control.

Electrics and manual transmission are under 2% each of the car market.  (And electrics just beat manuals last year!)  And while more automatic transmissions allow that individual control over selecting gear, only a small portion of drivers even use that.

  I'd like a nice, variable lever like the clutch for regen, and have it tied to the first bit of the brakes.

-Crissa

[Curt]

I'd like a nice, variable lever like the clutch for regen, and have it tied to the first bit of the brakes.

Not a bad idea, a left hand lever for regen. I've wondered that as well. It might confuse ICE riders at first. On a bicycle, I always have to think about which brake is front/rear.

The Bolt has a paddle on the left side of the steering wheel that hugely magnifies regen braking.

Regen braking can easily be strong enough to perform must normal braking. Priuses and Bolts and Teslas shouldn't ever need new brake pads. All braking can be done through regen down to about 10 mph, then the mechanical brakes can be phased in so smoothly it's not felt.

Unfortunately, without a motor in the front, electric motorcycle regen braking is always going to be limited. And a fancy progressive brake switch is needed.

I'm amazed the LiveWire doesn't have regen braking. Regen is a standard feature of most motor+BMS these days. Even my little platform scooter has it. But that said, the regen braking on my FX did not prevent wearing out pads and rotor. It's not good enough yet.

[JaimeC]

I'm not sure where this idea came from that the Livewire doesn't have regen braking... it DOES.  I was using it pretty exclusively on my test ride and only used the mechanical brakes for Stop signs and red lights.

[Crissa]

Old Priuses and Honda hybrids used so much regen that a simple tap on the brakes were like slamming on them.

It was crazy trying to switch from my car to a friend's 'cause of this.  I kept stopping way hard.

-Crissa

[Crilly]

On my SR-F I have full regen when brake light comes on.  That way I can coast with out regen.

On my Livewire I have progressive regen when I back off of the throttle.  It well regen harder  than the SR-F.  Just have to setup special modes like the zero.

[DonTom]

I'm not sure where this idea came from that the Livewire doesn't have regen braking... it DOES.  I was using it pretty exclusively on my test ride and only used the mechanical brakes for Stop signs and red lights.

Are you confusing deceleration regen with braking regen? You ONLY get true braking regen when you touch the brakes.

But I have noticed some use the term too loosly  and call deceleration regen as braking regen. AFAIK, only Zero has both, but I am not sure about the LW because I didn't have time to check all the screens for such stuff as if the regen increases when I brake (not just slow down, but when I actually use the brakes, as with Zeros).

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[princec]

Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?

Cas

[Crissa]

Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?

Yes.  But Teslas don't do it by default, for instance.

-Crissa