ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Brammo Forum => Topic started by: Richard230 on November 12, 2014, 05:38:08 AM
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It looks like the Brammo "fire sale" has been extended on all of their models until the end of the year. A new Brammo Empulse would make a great Christmas present and you can't beat the prices. All you have to do is to find one: http://www.brammo.com/us-incentives/ (http://www.brammo.com/us-incentives/)
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I wonder if "Underwhelming" is a more acurate reason for the sale extension. Also no mention of the Brammo 2015 models.
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Well, it certainly is a mystery to me. You would think that at those prices all of the 2013 and 2014 Brammo production would be already sold out. ??? And I agree that it is certainly odd that there has been no mention of Brammo 2015 models at any of the recent motorcycle shows, in the internet rumor mills, or even on the Brammo Fan site. It certainly makes you wonder. I really hope that Brammo will be producing 2015 bikes and that they will be a big improvement over the previous models. But, from a marketing standpoint, you would think they would be promoting the new models now, if for no other reason than to cut into 2015 Zero sales that will commence around the end of this year.
Just look at what BMW has done with their new water-cooled R and R1200RS models. Non-running examples have been exhibited at all of the European and U.S. motorcycle shows recently, even though they will not be available for sale in th U.S. until next May and retail prices have not been established yet. But just the announcement of these new models has many BMW enthusiasts drooling and placing deposits for the RS with their dealers right now. The same is true for most of the other established motorcycle brands that showed off their new 2015 models and Zero also followed that marketing strategy. So what is up with Brammo? ???
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I really thought that when Brammo got backing by Polaris you would really see the brand take off. That you would see Brammo sold where ever there was a Polaris dealer. I thought that would have been the reason for the two companies coming together. Brammo would have tapped into Polaris's R&D budget and just completely blown Zero away. Obviously I was completely wrong on all of this but it sure sounds nice! I am also wondering if we are going to see a 2015 Brammo. Heck, I am wondering if we will see a Mission bike and a Lightening bike in 2015. Energica looks interesting to for 2015. Considering the resources behind that company they could rapidly become the next major e-bike brand here. Time will tell.
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Well, at least Lightning has delivered a bike so far.
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Yes, I was really surprised to not see Brammo at AIMExpo and I have not heard anything marketing-wise from them.
Everybody, their dog, and their little brother was at AIMExpo. Hell, I even got to meet Abe Askenazi & Scot Harden of Zero!!
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I really expected to see Brammo at Milan as most of their chassis parts and their gearbox come from Italy. Plus, I thought they were planning to make a real push into Europe next year. ???
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Am I the only person that suspects brammo will no longer be producing motorcycles?
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Am I the only person that suspects brammo will no longer be producing motorcycles?
No. I felt that way every since I heard about the sale. And not hearing a peep about Brammo's 2015 models (at this late date in the marketing season) tends to reinforce that thought. ???
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I agree. If Brammo were to announce today about their 2015 models it would not have nearly the impact it would have had if they brought a 2015 model to one of the major motorcycle shows that were held recently. I checked the Brammo facebook page and there is a comment about how they have finally sold out of the 2013 models. That post also has two pictures on it, one shows lots of bikes and the other the same space with no bikes. Very interesting. Maybe Harlan has some insite on this?
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That would be too bad. They offered an interesting and welcome counterpoint to Zero's approach, regardless of how one feels about transmissions on e-bikes.
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That would be too bad. They offered an interesting and welcome counterpoint to Zero's approach, regardless of how one feels about transmissions on e-bikes.
I certainly agree. I am still not convinced that direct drive is always the way to go. While you don't need 6 speeds, I think some torque multiplication device is still worth pursuing and Brammo is (or was?) leading the way. There is no better test of design concepts than real-world use by critical owners.
Plus, Zero needs some real competition to keep their forward technical progress going and their retail prices down.
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I doubt they're going to stop producing motorcycles (although they may move into other things). They recently moved into an old Walmart building to expand production and started building more bikes. They're spending money all over the world bringing bikes to different countries and training support staff. They just sent a couple bikes to Australia, some to Europe.
What I think that they're doing, is trying to dump as much of the 2013 and 2014 bikes before they start full production of the 2015 bikes. I bet we'll hear something in the next few months about their plans for 2015. They're not a huge company, and I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of inventory before moving into the next generation of bikes. Its a huge problem if you have inventory of last generations of bikes and start selling 2015 models.
I have no doubt that they're working on a 2015 bike.
That's my 2 cents.
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I doubt they're going to stop producing motorcycles (although they may move into other things). They recently moved into an old Walmart building to expand production and started building more bikes. They're spending money all over the world bringing bikes to different countries and training support staff. They just sent a couple bikes to Australia, some to Europe.
What I think that they're doing, is trying to dump as much of the 2013 and 2014 bikes before they start full production of the 2015 bikes. I bet we'll hear something in the next few months about their plans for 2015. They're not a huge company, and I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of inventory before moving into the next generation of bikes. Its a huge problem if you have inventory of last generations of bikes and start selling 2015 models.
I have no doubt that they're working on a 2015 bike.
That's my 2 cents.
I very much hope (and think) that you're right, frodus.
It's widely understood (very correctly, in my mind) that the initial purchase price of an EV is one of the few remaining obstacles to widespread adoption, but production numbers will have to increase to bring the price down. If Brammo can reduce their excess-inventory problem while priming the pump a bit, I'm all for them doing so. We're still only seeing the tip of the EV iceberg, especially motorcycles.
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Word is Brammo has shut it's doors indefinitely. Our local rep said that the workforce had been laid off and the doors were shut.
He also said that Zero had received a lot of resumes from former Brammo employees. I hope they survive somehow.
The Empulse was not a bad bike but sales were really bad. The local Brammo dealer told us he could not give the bikes away until the "Summer Sale". He blamed bad management and a lack of honesty for most of the troubles.
Garry
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Wow, that is really bad news. I wonder how it happened? Their bikes seemed well designed and innovative. If this report is true, then something must have been off with the management and business plan. (I have my own thoughts about that, but I will keep them to myself.)
It would appear that another chapter closes on the early history of electric motorcycle companies. :(
I have no doubt that Zero could profit from some of the Brammo technicians if they can afford more staff to expand their technical base.
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Just a caution, Richard - this user has a total post count of 1, and he is newly registered as of today. Don't believe everything you read and only about half of what you see, as they say. I haven't been as "in the loop" as I used to, but haven't heard anything to support this.
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Thank you for pointing that out Brammofan. Exactly how many posts do I need to make to be worthy? Should I start my own forum maybe?
As someone that works on a daily basis in the electric motorcycle industry, unlike yourself, I may just have a small amount of insight into what is going on.
Also, I pointed out, this info was not from me directly but our local rep, someone I would believe also has more knowledge about what is happening than yourself.
I hope Brammo does indeed stick around but let's just look at the facts shall we?
1. Huge discounts of $5,000 a $7,000.
2. Looking for Crowd Funding all over the web.
3. No announcement of a 2015 or any kind of representation at any of the motorcycle shows, internationally or here in the U.S. Even their distributor in Europe said at Eicma that Brammo could not even give him one penny toward attending.
4. A Face Book post of an empty warehouse....... No bikes to sell, no 2015 means no revenue.
Garry.
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All I am saying is:
1. as any brand new member of any forum anywhere, you have no reputation equity. How many posts do you need to make to be worth? Well, more than one. You didn't post in the introductory "Welcome" thread. We know nothing about you.
2. The fact that the information you are sharing is second hand, further diminishes the integrity of that information as now we have to trust you AND the integrity of the anonymous source of your information.
3. You state that you work on a daily basis in the electric motorcycle industry. This could mean that you work for Brammo or Zero or any of their competitors. The fact that you say you work in the industry does not boost your credibility by itself. As I said, we don't know you.
4. This is not the first instance of company bashing on this forum. Once, it was traced right to the IP address of the competing motorcycle manufacturer's headquarters. So generally, I don't believe much of anything people post when they are insinuating the death of a particular brand.
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Not to take a side in the "yes they are"/"no they aren't" discussion (I personally would take ANYBODY's information with a grain of salt until there's an official announcement), it would be a shame to see Brammo go under. Elon Musk is right that there's room for a lot more players in the EV market; increased competition is GOOD for the market and even the manufacturers at this stage.
I do have to admit I always wondered how the Empulse could sell for the same price Zero sells the S for. It's got a transmission, a water-cooling system, and all the engineering that goes along with those things to support; expenses that Zero doesn't have on their bikes.
Which is a big part of the reason I think Zero's approach is better: Simplify where you can, not just because it's better for weight management and reliability reasons, but it's cheaper besides. At this point in their development, range and purchase price are the two biggest barriers to increased popularity of EVs.
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After going for a long walk and thinking about this information, it would seem that any such closing of the Brammo factory would be certainly covered by the local news media. Perhaps someone who knows how to find local news stories on the internet can do a little research into this report.
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It has just occurred to me that the closed factory that GarrysGhost's source saw may have been the old Brammo factory in Ashland that was closed when Brammo (was it this year?) moved to their new (formally a Walmart store) digs.
I have no idea if Garry's story is correct or not, I am just trying to explore all of the angles in the hopes that his information is incorrect.
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Hold tight, there should be a response soon, from the horses mouth.
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Hold tight, there should be a response soon, from the horses mouth.
Would that be Mr. Ed? ;)
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Hold tight, there should be a response soon, from the horses mouth.
I hope it's a positive response, after my troubles with Vectrix I would like to own a bike with support for a while...
Here in the EU the Empulse is selling quite well from what I can see/hear.
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Not Brammo-bashing at all...it's just that I find it very interesting that a representative from Brammo wouldn't switch on and rectify the loosely-coupled information that we have here on the forum.
I'm very aware of 'corporate-speak' and keeping business and marketing plans curtailed until the 'proper time' for a PR announcement, however, this forum represents an important base of EV Motorcycle and Scooter supporters, so keeping things on-track here should be paramount.
I'm located in the Seattle area, just up the coast from Brammo in Talent, OR, and Zero in Scotts Valley, CA, and am a fan of both companies. The industry needs to have several strong, committed brands to help it evolve and gain traction in the overall marketplace.
This topic will be must-read until we get a definitive and authoritative announcement on what's happening.
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I know they said to me they'd respond soon. We'll see.
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...Exactly how many posts do I need to make to be worthy? ...
None. Anyone who'd post this sort of speculation and rumor publicly and without any effort to validate it about a company, any company, has no credibility whatsoever, no matter how many posts you make.
Game over, thanks for playing.
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I found an article in the Ashland Daily Tidings online news site (By Greg Stiles for the Tidings Posted Aug. 27, 2014) that can be read at the following URL:
http://www.dailytidings.com/article/20140827/News/140829737 (http://www.dailytidings.com/article/20140827/News/140829737)
In the article, it proclaimed that, "...the electric motorcycle maker has room to grow in multiple directions. And that manufacturing growth will occur at home rather than overseas."
This was a little over 3 months ago. Craig Bramscher, the CEO is quoted in the article saying, "We have a bunch of things on the whiteboard we'd like to bring into production." "The Empulse was an evolution from the Enertia and then we've got more products coming."
And he also stated, "...we're finding is that expertise we've developed in trying to build a product like the Empulse and bringing it to market, is that we've created a set of skills and capabilities that are beyond motorcycles. I didn't really think we'd get into business-to-business side and start supplying batteries, motors, controllers and a complete solution to other companies, but that's actually a very big growth area for us."
Another telling quote is, "The battery lab capacity far exceeds those needed for its motorcycles. Within two years, Bramscher said, 50 percent of Brammo's business will revolve around batteries, creating a job boom locally for electrical engineers, mechanical engineers and software engineers."
This is a considerable amount of information from the CEO on meaningful opportunities for the company, and it's as much about them being a supplier to others that want to market EV's, where Brammo is a supplier of the technology and not necessarily the Brand marketing it.
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I live in Salem, Oregon and I no longer have an electric motorcycle but I really, really want one. I am about 4 hours from Brammo's production facility in Ashland. I had been scheduled to attend a factory tour in March but they cancelled my slot a week before the visit and said they would reschedule sometime in the summer (Hmmm #1). They have never rescheduled the visit and I have been unable to connect with them since.
Fast forward to the fire sale in the fall. (Hmmm #2) and the various comments made by Craig regarding the company's direction (Hmmmm #3 if you read between the lines).
I would love a Brammo. I test rode one and I thought it was really fun to ride. When the fire sale was first announced I seriously considered jumping on the deal but I wanted to wait until they announced a new model year just to see what I would be missing out on in exchange for a great price. We are all still waiting.
My own opinion (and this is decidedly un-informed and not based in fact) is that Brammo will be the electric component provider for Polaris eATVs (Can you imagine how many deer you would sneak up on in stealth mode?).
I would be happy if I am wrong. I think ATVs are for fat, lazy people while motorcycles are for fit, sexy people! I would rather see Brammo cater to the sexy people.
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FWIW I just heard from a friend of mine inside the EV industry who works with and around Brammo and I naturally can't name. GarrysGhost's comment is complete BS. Big surprise, right? :o
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I don't see why they couldn't sell motorcycles and drive systems and batteries. A number of motorcycle companies have sold their engines to other companies to be used in a variety of other vehicles. Even KTM sold chassis to Mavizen for the TTXGP. BMW used to use Rotax built engines in their F800gs and so did KTM, Bull and Can-Am . Bimota used a number of engines notably Ducati. Kawasaki engines were used in the T-rex. I'll quit there but you see the point.
It seems like a great business move except that they don't actually build their drive train but the whole package of the Empulse is an impressive product.
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I might add that a press release by Polaris earlier this year introduced the new VP of their motorcycle division. There was a single line in the announcement that listed the motorcycle brands that he was responsible for and the last brand listed was Brammo. ???
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A Lot of interesting pieces that are seeming to fit together and 'fill-in the puzzle' on the recent curtailed activity of Brammo as a motorcycle manufacturer.
However, Polaris is the parent company to two brands which are holding their own as American branded ICE motorcycles, Indian and Victory, and I have read that they a 24% share of ownership in KTM. Also Polaris has has their own brand of electric bicycles, the Polaris eBikes, so with the mention that the VP of the motorcycle division is also responsible for Brammo, seems to paint the picture that Brammo is being re-tooled in the fashion of another product line in the Polaris portfolio of Motorcycles.
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This all got me to dig up my story a few months ago when the "fire sale" was first announced. Read it here:
http://insideevs.com/brammo-fire-sale-story-behind-story/ (http://insideevs.com/brammo-fire-sale-story-behind-story/)
I had some interesting conversations with Brammo about it, cited there, as well as pulling from several other sources of actual facts, rather than rumor or simply regurgitating marketing.
I've also been told by Brammo that the 2015 models will be announced "after Jan. 1", which is what they did last year as well.
All anyone (other than a few people inside Brammo) can say is, time will tell. ;D
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All anyone (other than a few people inside Brammo) can say is, time will tell. ;D
Exactly. Until then, its all speculation. Thanks Ted.
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This article should put the rumors to rest:
http://insideevs.com/brammo-speaks-rumors-closing-doors-mass-layoffs/ (http://insideevs.com/brammo-speaks-rumors-closing-doors-mass-layoffs/)
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Thanks So Much flar for bringing forth this in-depth story on the current status at Brammo.
Sounds like business as usual, but as the article pointed out, perhaps a company with an ADD mindset.
Interesting that 75% of all of the their electric motorcycle sales was in Europe.
However, with the news that Richard and the members in the UK and Europe in this forum have pointed out, EV cycles are embraced more and therefore more readily acquired there than in the America's.
I wish them success, because they truly have great products — From hindsight, paying attention to what buyers want to buy should be the difference that propels them forward into the future.
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That is a very interesting article, Flar. But I wonder how only 50 employees can manage so many business projects and still have enough people left to design and produce new 2015 motorcycle models? Talk about squeezing blood out of a turnip. I think the company needs to focus on what they really want to do in the future and go in that direction, instead of juggling a bunch of business balls in the air. Alternately, perhaps they need to break the company up into motorcycle design and production and create a separate company dealing with EV consulting and similar non-manufacturing endeavors.
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@Richard I think the number of 70 people was production people only. So they don't include other departments. Perhaps Ted can clarify this?
What Is have learned in my professional life is that Focus is critical. And if Brammo is trying to keep too many balls in the air that they will get hurt. But I trust that they will understand that themselves.
Hocus, Pocus, keep the Focus! Is my motto [emoji11]
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Thank you sir - you beat me to it. :D
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I don't see how its a lack of focus to build battery packs and drive trains for Polaris or others if they are building the same for the Empulse. Look at it this way Seven sells to OEMS of various industries but sells units to retailers and there is no lack of focus there. It sounds like a great way to up their own production without worrying that the motorcycle sales won't be high enough. I tried buying a crashed Empulse with a cracked frame off of a guy on the Brammo Forum to use the battery pack and motor in a custom race chassis. I see a big market in custom builds and OEM for Brammo with no extra tooling or even design, as long as use one modular design.
I hear there was a short time when Zero was selling the ZF motors and I am disappointed that they are no longer for sale. Did any of you guys ever buy one, I never saw a build thread on a non Zero with a ZF motor.
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I don't see how its a lack of focus to build battery packs and drive trains for Polaris or others if they are building the same for the Empulse. Look at it this way Seven sells to OEMS of various industries but sells units to retailers and there is no lack of focus there. It sounds like a great way to up their own production without worrying that the motorcycle sales won't be high enough. I tried buying a crashed Empulse with a cracked frame off of a guy on the Brammo Forum to use the battery pack and motor in a custom race chassis. I see a big market in custom builds and OEM for Brammo with no extra tooling or even design, as long as use one modular design.
I hear there was a short time when Zero was selling the ZF motors and I am disappointed that they are no longer for sale. Did any of you guys ever buy one, I never saw a build thread on a non Zero with a ZF motor.
This bike has a ZF motor, as well as Zero batteries. Of course, I'll bet the owner knows someone that you don't. ;)
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Harlan at Hollywood Electrics sells Zero motors, packs, and complete plug-and-play systems.
To wit: "I can order all the components though, and we regularly do, for those wishing to have a complete Zero drivetrain for converting their own vehicles. This includes motor, controller, batteries, charger. wiring harness, MBB with bluetooth, instrument cluster, etc. Basically, your options for purchase vary from the basic motor/controller combo to the entire Zero drivetrain."
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Richard & Ted that's some great info! I'm sorry for derailing the topic a bit it seems like a modified production EV thread would be fitting for this subject! ;D
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Just like the EverReady Bunny, the Brammo End-Of-Year Promotion! Limited Time Offer! sale is still on, in the beginning of the new year.
Seems like the market for Brammo Empulses and Enertias is not that great, since the sale started a couple of months back and there is still inventory to move.
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It is really hard to believe that Brammo still has bikes in their inventory pipeline that have not yet been sold yet at their end-of-season "fire sale"? At those prices, it seems to me that they are a very good value, even when compared with IC motorcycles in that price range. I just don't understand what is going on. To my mind they should have sold out of all of their production months ago. ???
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I'm thinking it's just a highly inelastic market. When I decided to look into electric bikes, then discovered how expensive they were, it didn't slow me down at all. It just made me save for a while longer until I could swing one.
I just don't think price is a big motivator among our crowd.
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I was thinking similarly about the fire-sale pricing being able to sell off the existing inventory.
So I went looking to see if there was any mention of 2015 models...nothing on their website as of yet.
I'm in agreement with Doug S that Early Adopters (such as those of us who are on the forum) are motivated more by the technology than pricing...within reason. 'Early-entry' pricing (higher than mass-production pricing) definitely has the effect of holding back some and slowing down others. It seems like the competitive market for the limited amount of Early Adopters has decided mostly in favor of the Zeros. I hope that Brammo continues to stay in the game because both the industry and consumers benefit with the competition.
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I had a shaky finger hovering above the "buy it now" button when Eric bostrums press bike Hit eBay , but there are two specific things that kept running in my head, 1- are they going to be around to support it, they haven't even had the common decency to let their dealers know if or when a 2015 is due, who wants to buy the last beta machine! 2- what's so special and secret that they can't even tell any hints or indicators of the new model year (if any actually exists)
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Just got an email from the brammo dealer in Buffalo, the sale is on again!
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I take it that there is an unending supply of Brammo Empulses and Inertias in the pipeline? ???
It sort of makes you wonder if there wasn't a disconnect between the factory output and consumer sales. ???
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I take it that there is an unending supply of Brammo Empulses and Inertias in the pipeline? ???
It sort of makes you wonder if there wasn't a disconnect between the factory output and consumer sales. ???
Unending, probably not. I recall BrammoBrian stating at one point that there wasn't much profit margin in the Empulse R @ $19k. I would bet they've cut costs somewhat for the 2014 Empulse (including cutting the carbon fiber bits), but likely not enough to make a profit at $14k.
Even with just-in-time supply lines, there's always going to be a little disconnect between production and sales to feed dealers. There are also probably minimum orders for certain components as well. I wonder if the motorcycles still for sale were built mid 2014, or if some of their recent funding (http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/morning_call/2015/01/brammos-busy-month-a-12-5m-fund-raise-along-with.html) has been used to finish bikes that they already had significant levels of standing component inventory.
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I'm of similar thinking to protomech:
There are also probably minimum orders for certain components as well. I wonder if the motorcycles still for sale were built mid 2014, or if some of their recent funding has been used to finish bikes that they already had significant levels of standing component inventory.
They would have placed orders for a certain level of production, whereby the volume of the parts purchased either at one time, or accumulated during the year, would provide for the pricing that they had contracted with their suppliers. Already having the sunk costs of all the on-hand inventory, for fairly expensive assemblies such as motors, controllers, battery-banks, etc., it's better financially to sell off the finished product at near-break-even pricing than to scrap all of that material and get very little in payment for 'scrap'. This assumes that much of the Empulses and Enertias are product-specific parts and not readily used in other 'propulsion-unit' applications.
As for the local Brammo dealer in my area, they still had a couple of Enertias when I checked about two weeks ago...and a cut-away view model of the Empulse (which is not of much use anymore, unless as a museum exhibit).