ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Rhamphorhynchus on May 16, 2014, 07:10:57 AM
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Hey,
Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm considering buying one of the Zero bikes mostly as a fair weather commuter, and the price point and fun factor of the FX would make it my preferred choice. However, I think my commute may be pushing the limits of the bike, so I thought I'd ask the forum. It's a 35 mile round trip, fairly flat, between 30 and 50 mph. I don't think there's any outside power at my office, so probably no chance to charge there (at least outside). Zero's claimed range for mixed riding is 54 miles, so on paper it looks like this should work out ok. Could anyone give me some idea of how accurate the range figure is?
My other (probably stupid) question is about using the off-board charging option at work. Is it possible to charge up just one of the two power packs, or is it necessary to have them both at the same level of charge while they're both in use on the bike? It seems like riding to work with both packs installed, then taking one of the packs inside to charge up during the day would be a good bit easier than lugging both of them inside, but obviously not if it doesn't work that way...
I guess an S is a more practical option, but I just don't see it pushing my hooligan buttons like an FX :)
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My '12 DS ZF6 makes my daily 27 mile round trip, usually 70+ MPH a large portion of the route, as it's 85% freeway. I have no doubt the FX is up to that duty, and I'm signed up to test drive one Saturday!
I charge at work most days, as freeway speeds can take over 50% of my ZF6's [5kWHr?] battery; a flat extension cord fits under a doorway that only alarms if it's open too long... The boss "caught me" early on, and during our talk, decided it wasn't worth the accounting costs to accept my offer to pay for the juice [with a Kill-A-Watt to track my consumption].
Then again, I'm also planning to test ride the SR, so all bets are off! Having put 50k miles on my '88 Magna, I think I'm ready for its awesome power... and I'm signing the papers for a 3.5% HELOC tomorrow! ;D
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My 2013 FX will do around 45 to 50 miles on the type of ride you say that you have even with a few hills. I do a pavement ride that is 43 miles round trip measured on a GPS (more accurate than the bike odo). It has a couple of steep hills on the route. I hold my speed to 35 to 45 mph. My gauge is flashing at the end but I still have a few miles left. However, in cold weather it is marginal on this ride. I wouldn't have any worries if the round trip was only 35 miles, even in cold weather. I have found the range of my 2013 FX ZF-5.7 to be nearly identical to my 2012 DS ZF-6.
The two batteries can be vastly different voltages and work together in the bike, according to Zero. However, the controller may lower peak torque, I don't know about that.
Here is measured data from the last time I did this ride:
Total miles: 43 (GPS), 45.8 (bike odo), 44 (iPod)
Moving average: 31 mph
Finish charge remaining: 1.089 kWh, indicated remaining capacity: 23%
Battery: 99 V
Air temp: 76*, Batt temp: 89* to 92*
Recharge: 4.12 kWh @ 6.5 hr
Hope this helps to answer your question.
Trikester
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The FX ZF5.7 is rated at 44 miles @ constant 55 mph. Zero's ratings tend to be pretty accurate for level riding, so I don't think you'd have any trouble with your roundtrip route. Riding at slower speeds will extend range in case you go riding for lunch or need to run errands after work.
IIRC the bike will work fine with battery modules at different levels. If one module fully discharges then you will have the same top-end power limitations as only a single module is installed. I'm curious whether the bike tries to balance the modules as it rides by primarily drawing from the module with higher SOC.
The battery modules weigh about 45 pounds apiece, and the charger weighs about 10 pounds. That's a lot of gear to haul around.
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Excellent, thanks for all the detail! Sounds like the bike would fit my needs with a little margin to spare. I guess it was worth asking the single-pack-charging question after all; carrying one of the 45 pound packs into the office isn't something I'd have to do every day, but could be an option on days where I had errands to run and needed some extra range.
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The S is hard to do wheelies on, but still qualifies for a hooligan ride if that is your aim. You will leave traffic far behind at stop signs and traffic lights. The only thing limiting my 2013 Zero S acceleration is spinning the (stock) tires. Go do a test ride of an S. Unless someone is on a super sport, reving the engine and drag racing away from the traffic light, you will beat them. You still may if they don't shift or hit the light just right. And the electric stealthiness doesn't attract as much attention to your speeding as a gas bike. Plus you can use the S on the highway if you want. Only if I never planned to take the bike on the highway would I choose the FX over the S.
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The FX is perfectly fine on the highway and weighs a lot less than the S. It's fun to ride even if you never take it onto the dirt. If that's the case, then put street tires on it and you'll get even more mileage.
Trikester
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I agree with most - the FX is able to make this trip, you will have less range at cold weather (0-7°C) (32-44°F) but the most imported effect is the speed.
If you "know" your bike - you are able to stretch distance with your driving style a lot.
To charge the Battery outside: I never did but it is a bit fiddling to open the lock and to insert the holder (top frame part) again - maybe you can test it at the dealer.
I like the removable batteries but I wouldn't like to do it every day.
I never tried to run an "empty/low" and "full" Battery but Zero claims it works. (and I believe this! if you need this information 100% PM me and I do a test ride next week for you)
Have you tested a FX jet? Yesterday a Test-driver of a German motorcycle magazine had a spin on my bike "he had a lot of fun and told the other fellas when stop "he will not return the bike ;D"
So you will have fun with a FX
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You can always slow down to extend your range, but remember too, you lose range with time as your batteries age. I have 6700 miles on my 2013 S and notice range loss already, so I would want to have a couple of bars left after the trip to feel safe. One trip I have made many times is exactly 48 miles from my house to Harbor Freight and back...same route every time. The first few times I made the trip, I spent a lot of interstate speed at 80 mph, even had the slow down red flashing light show up. I returned with 2 bars showing. The last few times I have done the trip, I have had to take the access road for about 8 miles in order to get back home safely, so I have definitely lost range from when the bike was new.
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So, the point of buying an FX would definitely not be to slow down :)
I haven't had a chance to try any of the bikes yet. I figure any of the bigger bikes would have no problem with the range, so I was asking about the FX to see whether it was worth trying. It's the light, fun machine, I like the price, and it would probably suit the tight slow roads on my commute better than something bigger, but I guess may not have the legs after the first year or so.
Hm...
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From what you've written, it would be close. I find those website ranges to be optimistic. If you get a chance to test ride an FX, you could try a shorter trip and interpolate. The bars showing your charge level are fairly consistent so if you get 6 miles with one bar, you should probably get 6 miles with every bar. If only you could charge at work, that would make it work for sure. Speed is a huge factor, so I'm sure you could do the 35 miles, but maybe not at the speed you would like.
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You can always slow down to extend your range, but remember too, you lose range with time as your batteries age. I have 6700 miles on my 2013 S and notice range loss already, so I would want to have a couple of bars left after the trip to feel safe. One trip I have made many times is exactly 48 miles from my house to Harbor Freight and back...same route every time. The first few times I made the trip, I spent a lot of interstate speed at 80 mph, even had the slow down red flashing light show up. I returned with 2 bars showing. The last few times I have done the trip, I have had to take the access road for about 8 miles in order to get back home safely, so I have definitely lost range from when the bike was new.
Interesting, Zero says 80% capacity at 200000 miles but you've already hit it?
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The FX is perfectly fine on the highway and weighs a lot less than the S. It's fun to ride even if you never take it onto the dirt. If that's the case, then put street tires on it and you'll get even more mileage.
Trikester
I visited my new "local" dealer [50 miles from San Jose] yesterday and test rode the SR and the FX. Loved them both... Now I'm having trouble deciding which one I want to replace my '12 DS ZF6. Most of my 9000 miles thus far have been commuting up and down 101, often seeing the overheat indicator trying to keep up with traffic going 75 MPH. If the FX can hang at those speeds for the 12 miles of freeway I use on my daily commute, I think it would be my first choice.
Unless I could get a DSR.... ???
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I don't think it would be hard to swap out the shocks / forks / tires on an SR to convert it to a DSR ^_^
My S 2013 with size 6 controller has the DS shocks / forks installed.
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If the FX can hang at those speeds for the 12 miles of freeway I use on my daily commute, I think it would be my first choice.
It can definitely hang at those speeds for 12 miles. In addition to the ride data I posted, I've also ridden mine like that.
Trikester
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Hard to say how much battery I've lost since each trip is slightly different with wind resistance, tire pressure, acceleration, speed, temperature, etc, but I would guess I've lost 5% in one year and 6700 miles.
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Am I right in thinking that, given similar riding conditions, a larger pack will lose capacity slower? So, using most (or all) of the FX capacity every day for my commute would age the pack faster than an S pack used for the same riding?
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The first few times I made the trip, I spent a lot of interstate speed at 80 mph, even had the slow down red flashing light show up. I returned with 2 bars showing. The last few times I have done the trip, I have had to take the access road for about 8 miles in order to get back home safely, so I have definitely lost range from when the bike was new.
You may want to verify that using a voltmeter, just in case other conditions are causing that behavior.
I have 14,300 miles on my 2012 and have not noticed any range loss. When someone loses a battery bar, then we'll have better data on this, but it seems unlikely that a Li-Ion battery would degrade at that rate.
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What is it that Zero claims on the newer models? It's something like 240,000 miles to 80% capacity. Don't remember exactly, but the number is very high, compared to the 2010's & 2011's.
I'm 79 so it isn't a factor for me, so I didn't pay much attention to the number. Whoever inherits my Zero's can worry about the battery life. ;)
Trikester
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Zero say 158,000 miles to 80% on the FX5.7 and 308,000 miles on the S11.4
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Plenty of opinions already but one more data point.
My round trip is right about 35mi, and I ride it hard every day. Most days I ride mostly highway in and combined highway/city home. I can charge at work which you'd definitely have to do if you were planning to hit more than a mile or three of highway but surface streets even flirting with a wheelie from literally every stop and cruising at 45-50mph I only use half the charge and can do both ways easily. 2500mi on my odo. I've set off with only two bars (29%) remaining and made it 17mi home riding very gently with a mile or two blinking zero bars at the end. Forgetting to plug in or plugging into a blown circuit sucks! :o
It would be interesting to establish a map of how much continuous power these bikes can dissipate for how long before limiting. At 75-78mph I can easily make my 9 highway miles without limiting. 80-82mph I can make it 7 miles or so before it starts blinking and I start losing top speed just in the last 1/2mi uphill. I've never maintained the limited 89mph all the way to torque limiting but I imagine it wouldn't take long! How much it is pre-heated by getting to the highway and powering your way up to speed will make a difference to that also. You can temp limit by doing consecutive 0-50 runs as I learned trying to learn to do stoppies on the way to work this morning... :P Or by doing 5000 vertical feet of continuous high-torque hill-climbing on the dirt without a break.
In short, yes it can make it, consider how many years you'll own it as far as degradation goes, and the one number that should make up your mind if you really want to play: 275lbs. (Or 230 with one battery which is great for short dirt loops!)
Supermoto setup from Hollywood Electrics highly recommended and it's surprisingly reasonable as Zero's parts are quite cheap (not including the options and batteries!) Or at least get some great street rubber to do the bike justice.
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have you considered the relative sizes of the two bikes as the FX is based on the old Zero X which is a 7/8ths size bike?
make sure you actually see it in the flesh and ride it before you buy it as many people cannot tell the actual difference in physical size unless they see the bikes firsthand, if you are a big dude then the FX may feel a bit small. oh and get a long warranty and a good dealer, you will need it...
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if you are a big dude then the FX may feel a bit small. oh and get a long warranty and a good dealer, you will need it...
I'm 6'3" and I ride an FX. It was somewhat cramped until I put handle bar risers on it. The risers I used also can swing forward some, which I dad. I like the feel of my FX now. It even seems to handle better.
Trikester
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Thanks all. Definitely planning to test ride first! There's a dealer about an hour from me.
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6'4'' here, my 2014 FX feels great in size, even more than my SV650 with handlebar and seat modifications. I have a 34'' inseam.
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I am 6'4" as well. Compared to the Aprilia RSV-R it replaced, the 2014 FX is very comfortable. I will now stay off the main highway as I don't like to play "Bumper-Cars". The range is fine, I just need to reprogram myself to ride it properly.
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Not sure if this is the right area,but, it seems as good as any. I recently picked up a used 2013 FX and have a few questions.
The bike has a little under 700 miles. I have left it plugged in when not riding to keep batteries balanced.
When I use the on board charger, the FX shows fully charged, but, the phone app shows 95%. Do others notice this?
When I use the On Board and Fast charger, I get to 100% showing 5.336 Capacity KWhour. Is this also normal?
I hear a lot about thermal slow down. I live in Vegas where it is over 100 degrees for about half the year, so, this
is a concern. I have not had issues yet, but, have been gentle. My 2012 XU has never had any problems in over 3000 miles.
The only temperature that I have seen anyone post is 250 degrees. Is this normal, or, does it occur at lower temperatures?
I am sure that I will have other questions, but, these are concerns that I have now.
If not appropriate for this section, feel free to answer directly.
Thanks
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I don't have any specific info for you on the charging but it's a common comment I've seen to end up with non-100% at completed charging. There could be some battery degradation over time but mostly I think it's just variability in the charger or voltage reporting (with temp, etc.). Personally I don't worry about it.
I hear a lot about thermal slow down. I live in Vegas where it is over 100 degrees for about half the year, so, this
is a concern. I have not had issues yet, but, have been gentle. My 2012 XU has never had any problems in over 3000 miles.
The only temperature that I have seen anyone post is 250 degrees. Is this normal, or, does it occur at lower temperatures?
I thought 232*F was when thermal limiting begins. 212*F is when it starts the warning flash. I only run into thermal limits when:
continuous highway operation in the high 70s mph (~10mi) or mid 80s (a few miles max.)
continuous extreme hill climbing off-road
repeated 0-60mph runs and supermoto racing.
It's designed to protect itself so if you hit it, you just need to go easy on it until it cools, you won't hurt it or so Zero explicitly says in the manual. Now if you're like me and hit it every day, who knows, maybe this will be rough on it over time. Personally I've found no significant difference in the thermal limiting whether it's 45F or 90F. The motor is so poorly cooled relative to how quickly it can generate heat the ambient temp only matters if you're right on the edge. Very cold temps will reduce effective battery capacity somewhat.
If you run the app while you ride you can watch the temps and feel when it starts limiting and the warning light goes solid red.