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[manlytom]

I have an '11 Zero DS converted to dirt, I suggest everyone explore those last two blinking bars! I did and its more like 3 bars.. Each blinker and one as empty.. I was still moving when I came down the road on no bars.. I went up and down the road until it ran out.. It took forever, but I got about 2 more miles per no bar and maybe 5 miles total with both blinkers.. IT is usable range!

Does this mean "usable range" before we damage the battery ?

[Lipo423]

Hi Tom,

It is unlikely you will damage the battery...the BMS will not let this happening (whatever you do with the 2+1 bars left).
We all trend (at least, I do) to get a little "anxious" when the 2 last bars start blinking, but the reality is that there is still around 20-25% capacity left -within the nominal battery capacity, because the 9Kw are not 100% usable/available-

A power meter (I believe Richard and other guys are using a brand called "Kill-A-Watt" -we have different ones in Europe-) will give a good idea of the total pack power comsumed as the bike onboard bar-system is not very accurate...

[baumisch]

So I am getting the opinion, as a new 5-week zero zf 9 s driver, it would be a good practice for me to do a "ride until it dies" test on the weekend - correct?

I will do this next week, this weekend I have to commute 400km and that's way too much for my zero Hopefully we will reach such distances the next 5-10 years on motorcycles too ...

[Lipo423]

Yes, I'm afarid so 
There is nothing better than learning from experience...but try to get close home when reaching the 60 mi line 
That's about right...The timing it will take to get Lithium 3 regeration batteries available to users with 500 Wh/Kg.
Hopefully we are wrong with the timeframe and will get them sooner 

[protomech]

400 km freeway range is a ways away.

Lightning claims 120 Wh/mile = 75 Wh/km on the freeway. They have good aero. 400 km needs at least 30 kWh to make in a single trip.

NTS has a prototype solution for tightly packaging cylindrical cells, shown with Panasonic NCR 18650 250 Wh/kg in a 15 kWh pack. If we can double energy density (Wh/L) in 5-10 years then we should be able to do 30 Wh.

[baumisch]

400 km freeway range is a ways away.

Lightning claims 120 Wh/mile = 75 Wh/km on the freeway. They have good aero. 400 km needs at least 30 kWh to make in a single trip.

NTS has a prototype solution for tightly packaging cylindrical cells, shown with Panasonic NCR 18650 250 Wh/kg in a 15 kWh pack. If we can double energy density (Wh/L) in 5-10 years then we should be able to do 30 Wh.

Thanks Protomech for making me a bit optimistic

[Lipo423]

We will definitely double the density in 10 years -hopefully more- (if fuel prices continue to raise, and EV vehicles sales rise up also)

The offering you mentioned is a "temptation" as 15Kwh is already a very nice number for a bike...however is what I call a "risky package".  Unlike what TESLA does (NTS mentioned TESLA as a reference, but did not mention that the TESLA battery pack has a very sophisticated water-cooled system...)this battery pack seems to have no cooling system.

Cylindrical cells have issues with uniform heat dissipation (during high rate discharge the core of the cells become hotter than the outside).The higher temperature makes the inner part of the battery to age faster, which results in the premature loss of capacity for the entire cell...They can argue that they are cheaper than pouch cells, but that's a different discussion...

[protomech]

NTS claims the cells are thermally coupled to the front and back plates of the battery box, and that it will radiate the heat away. Would like to see verification, but it does have a large amount of surface area in the demonstration pack relative to the cells. Significant difference from a battery box that is large in three dimensions.

Heating is another issue entirely, but at least for a bike application the -20 to -40C temperatures which are problematic for typical lithium cells are unlikely to be an issue.

[Lipo423]

Nice info. Protomech.
Mmm...it seems Neal has done a very nice job with the packaging & assembling/interconnection -which is quite important with Lithium battery packs...(I frankly still have some questions on the cells temperature for high rate discharge in a full spectrum use -especially in Spain- ).

Hopefully, I'm wrong - I will not argue this business with Neal as he probably knows far more than me about Lithium Batteries