ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: GeneralSP on July 30, 2020, 07:08:20 PM
-
Hi guys, I read here and other website, with SRF or S it is possible to have more performance than sport mode. I read, Beast Mode, this is real or just in their head?
When I check with the Android Zero App, I see on the sport mode it is already to max setting exept regeneration. ???
-
You can program custom modes and have 1 loaded in the bike. I think a lot of people just name it beast mode, and then set the power to 100%.
Thats more or less how I have my custom mode set.
-
You can program custom modes and have 1 loaded in the bike. I think a lot of people just name it beast mode, and then set the power to 100%.
Thats more or less how I have my custom mode set.
You mean just the power slider moved to 100% and the other ones left at 0%?
-
No you'd want both power and torque set to 100 %.
And you can name that custom mode so some just call it that.
Sport has both values maxed out so no more is possible. See added screenshot.
(https://i.ibb.co/rvh6nfb/10-E7515-D-ECA6-4-BDD-A0-AA-2-EFC4-AE69900.png) (https://ibb.co/GFD2g3s)
-
Ok, mean, The famous beast mode is just a legend. Sport mode is already at maximum.
-
You can program custom modes and have 1 loaded in the bike. I think a lot of people just name it beast mode, and then set the power to 100%.
Thats more or less how I have my custom mode set.
You mean just the power slider moved to 100% and the other ones left at 0%?
I think you know what I meant. Why would anyone set the power to 100% and the torque to zero?
-
What would even happen if you did that, or set it to 100% torque and 0% power? Having them separate doesn't really make sense, with the older models you set the torque and then it uses however much power it needs to get to that amount of torque. I can't think of any reason why you'd ever want to limit power when it's the torque that can cause issues (losing traction or pulling a wheelie).
-
Torque is instant acceleration, is power like the old top speed?
-Crissa
-
That would have been my guess too (that it's to act as a speed limiter) but there's still a speed limit slider in the app.
-
Based on my experiments the first rides (never changed it afterwards)
Torque: how fast you get away from stop or from rolling if you pin throttle
Power: how long that fast get away lasts when you gain speed
Max speed: is literally that, it doesn't let you go beyond that speed (unless maybe on downhill)
-
Based on my experiments the first rides (never changed it afterwards)
Torque: how fast you get away from stop or from rolling if you pin throttle
Power: how long that fast get away lasts when you gain speed
Max speed: is literally that, it doesn't let you go beyond that speed (unless maybe on downhill)
I know what they mean, I just don't get why anyone would ever want less than max available power. How much power is needed to produce a certain amount of torque changes with speed and incline, so by having less than 100% power available you could end up in a situation where you can't get to the torque limit, either by climbing a hill or reaching a certain speed.
-
Maybe power is like the variable that gets tamped down when the battery is near exhaustion.
-Crissa
-
Torque x rev = power
-
Torque x rev = power
Exactly, so if you limit power you limit torque at higher speeds or reduce speed when higher torque is required.
-
Just gong back to the OP question - is it possible to get more power than SPORT, I think not only is it no because it's already at max torque and power but also I find my custom mode with 100% torque and power Has less acceleration than the factory sport mode.
I only don't like the factory sport mode due to the high neutral regen. Shame we can't adjust factory modes. 🙄
-
Ok, mean, The famous beast mode is just a legend. Sport mode is already at maximum.
Right, but if you want to do something different with regen. I have my braking regen set to 100% and my coasting regen is at 30 or 40%
-
Okay I think I just discovered something in the app source code...I was looking for other information but then quickly checked the RideMode implementation cause I remembered this thread where people were talking about that beast mode... An option to have more power than the Sport mode config.
It's probably written in Kotlin which compiles to Java so all this is more like generated Java code. Anyway there is this RideMode class with this constructor. Just try to follow me on the constructor arguments here, these all have a specific setting. For example the name of the mode or the integer values for torque, power, brake regen, coast regen, ...
public RideMode(@NotNull RideModeType rideModeType, @NotNull String str, @NotNull TractionControlType tractionControlType2, @NotNull AbsControl absControl2, int i, int i2, int i3, int i4, int i5, int i6, @NotNull DashboardTheme dashboardTheme, @NotNull DashboardTheme dashboardTheme2) {
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(rideModeType, Param.TYPE);
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(str, "name");
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(tractionControlType2, "tractionControlType");
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(absControl2, "absControl");
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(dashboardTheme, "currentDashboardTheme");
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(dashboardTheme2, "originalDashboardTheme");
this.type = rideModeType;
this.name = str;
this.tractionControlType = tractionControlType2;
this.absControl = absControl2;
this.maxSpeed = i;
this.maxPower = i2;
this.maxTorque = i3;
this.neutralRegeneration = i4;
this.brakeRegeneration = i5;
this.swap = i6;
this.currentDashboardTheme = dashboardTheme;
this.originalDashboardTheme = dashboardTheme2;
}
And then there is a set of pre defined zero specific ride modes all implemented with the ZeroRideMode subclasses. Super indicates it's a call to this previous constructor. Most parameters speak for themselves. Order for the integer values after AbsControl and before DashboardTheme is:
this.maxSpeed = i;
this.maxPower = i2;
this.maxTorque = i3;
this.neutralRegeneration = i4;
this.brakeRegeneration = i5;
this.swap = i6;
ECO
super(rideModeType, string, TractionControlType.STREET, AbsControl.ON, 70, 60, 60, 80, 100, 1, DashboardTheme.DARKGREEN, null);
RAIN
super(rideModeType, string, TractionControlType.RAIN, AbsControl.ON, 60, 60, 60, 70, 70, 1, DashboardTheme.DARKBLUE, null);
SPORT
super(rideModeType, string, TractionControlType.SPORT, AbsControl.ON, 100, 80, 80, 80, 80, 1, DashboardTheme.LIGHTORANGE, null);
STREET
super(rideModeType, string, TractionControlType.STREET, AbsControl.ON, 80, 75, 75, 75, 75, 1, DashboardTheme.LIGHTBLUE, null);
So far so good but there is also a 5th option that isn't on the dashboard.
SPORTPLUS
super(rideModeType, string, TractionControlType.SPORT, AbsControl.ON, 120, 100, 100, 100, 100, 1, DashboardTheme.LIGHTORANGE, null);
I have yet to check what the custom ride mode that is set with these sliders per value accepts as min and max value but it's likely also limited to the values for SPORT and in that case indeed it's not all the way but limited to 100 mph and 80% of torque and power. While the hidden sport plus mode dus 120 mph and 100% torque and power.
-
Well that doesn't add up with the specs that Zero give, which are a top speed of 124mph and a sustained speed of 110mph. Can you confirm that eco, rain, and street are limited to 70, 60, and 80mph respectively? I did wonder if it could be a percentage instead but then the numbers seem a bit high for eco and rain (75 and 87mph).
I'd also like to see what numbers come back for a maxed out custom mode. I don't think they would tie it to the sport mode limits because then you can't get 100% brake regen which otherwise exists in eco mode.
-
What is the current limit of the controller?
-
I added the mph, that must be wrong then indeed. It's just an int and all I know for sure is that the value in kmh for ECO is actually 120 kmh so 75 mph. So not the 70 value that is listed here.
For the code setting the values from the user interacting with the slider I can only see they do some checks on brake vs coast regen and that the max speed value is + 60 ?
public final void onSeekBarProgressChanged(@NotNull SeekBar seekBar, int i, boolean z) {
Intrinsics.checkParameterIsNotNull(seekBar, "seekBar");
RideMode rideMode2 = this.rideMode;
if (rideMode2 != null) {
switch (seekBar.getId()) {
case C1485R.C1487id.sb_power /*2131296724*/:
rideMode2.setMaxPower(i);
this.maxPower.set(i);
return;
case C1485R.C1487id.sb_regen /*2131296726*/:
rideMode2.setNeutralRegeneration(i);
this.neutralRegeneration.set(i);
if (this.neutralRegeneration.get() > this.brakeRegeneration.get()) {
this.brakeRegeneration.set(this.neutralRegeneration.get());
return;
}
return;
case C1485R.C1487id.sb_regen_brake /*2131296727*/:
rideMode2.setBrakeRegeneration(i);
this.brakeRegeneration.set(i);
if (this.brakeRegeneration.get() < this.neutralRegeneration.get()) {
this.neutralRegeneration.set(this.brakeRegeneration.get());
return;
}
return;
case C1485R.C1487id.sb_speed /*2131296729*/:
rideMode2.setMaxSpeed(i + 60);
this.maxSpeed.set(i);
return;
case C1485R.C1487id.sb_torque /*2131296730*/:
rideMode2.setMaxTorque(i);
this.maxTorque.set(i);
return;
default:
return;
}
}
}
-
Well that doesn't add up with the specs that Zero give, which are a top speed of 124mph and a sustained speed of 110mph. Can you confirm that eco, rain, and street are limited to 70, 60, and 80mph respectively? I did wonder if it could be a percentage instead but then the numbers seem a bit high for eco and rain (75 and 87mph).
Why would you assume those values are MPH and not percentages
-
Well that doesn't add up with the specs that Zero give, which are a top speed of 124mph and a sustained speed of 110mph. Can you confirm that eco, rain, and street are limited to 70, 60, and 80mph respectively? I did wonder if it could be a percentage instead but then the numbers seem a bit high for eco and rain (75 and 87mph).
Why would you assume those values are MPH and not percentages
I don't think it's either because neither match up with the actual limits. If the eco speed limit is 70% at 75mph then 100% would be 107mph where as Zero say it will do 124mph.
-
120% of 107 is 128...
-Crissa
-
Why would you assume those values are MPH and not percentages
Well you enter it as an mph value in the UI, even if you have the app set up to use metric it's still mph. See screenshot I shared earlier. But doesn't matter since it doesn't match with the actual values.
Plus there is this +60 action on storing it.
Default sport mode value is 127 mph in UI, received as 100, stored as 160.
Default sport plus mode is unknown in mph, received as 120, stored as 180.
-
120% of 107 is 128...
-Crissa
Which would mean that the SR/F would only be able to reach its specified top speed in a mode that is inaccessible. I don't own one to test it but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who have and we would have surely have heard about the top speed being 20mph lower than it's supposed to be.
-
No it indicates that there is a hidden mode with a higher top speed than what is in specs. But I'm more interested in those higher torque and power values anyways cause 124mph is way more than what I need.
The zero specs aren't all that specific anyway 8)
It should have 190Nm of torque and yet on my first ride I recorded data with their own app and got a peak value of 200 Nm.
Top speed should be 124mph and still in custom mode you can't go over 120mph and it sport it's set to 127mph.
-
Out of couriosity, if Zero were able to make the SRS / SRF perform significantly better by changing a few mode figures, wouldn't they do so just for competitivenesses sake?
-
...Because those settings might result in the bike having a significantly shortened lifespan?
-Crissa
-
As I am personally unable to reach 0-60 mph (actually 0-100 km/h) in less than 3.5-4 seconds, IMH[1]O the SR/F simply needs a Sport Plus mode.
Or I need to loose some weight.
([1] says the guy who is too chicken to disable ABS/traction control)
-
Turning off traction control shouldn't help, the computer can manage the torque better than you can so just go full throttle straight from the beginning. When you're already accelerating from a stop faster than anything short of a super car (and probably giving them a run for their money in a rolling pull) I think more speed is a want, not a need.
-
It might just heat up or otherwise put strain on components too much.
Or maybe they want to sell a sport plus mode in the future.
-
Well, looking at ancient dinosaur burners from a previous age, it hurts to see a BMW K1200R (never ridden one, the SR/F is my second bike, after the DSR) whizz past a top tech electric MC at 2.8s ...
It simply doesn't feel right ...
(and the SR/F is a slouch between 0 and 30 km/h, IMO).
-
I wonder if the SR/F has low speed torque limiting like the other models. If it hasn't and a full throttle launch with traction control off doesn't spin the tyre then you could change the gearing for faster acceleration. One thing many people don't realise is a lot of gas bikes actually have more peak torque in first gear than most electric bikes, so if you can get the revs up and launch it well it's no surprise they'll get to 60 quicker. The real advantage of electric bikes is rolling pulls when the gas bike would be in a higher gear and/or at lower revs.
-
Thanks for your explanation.
Still happy with the SR/F ... (but that 0-30 ... :( )
-
At the traffic light an ICE bike is normally just idling.
If they would do the 0-60mph / 0-100kph measurement from red to green light and mandatory idling for an ICE i'm sure the SR/F and SR/S would win it almost every time.
regarding the comment of ICE bikes having more peak torque in first gear i can provide some calculations i have done when i got my first Zero SR and adjusted for the SR/F
The SR/F and SR/S produce 190 NM at the motor, the final drive ratio is 4.5 (90/20 teeth) so the torque to the wheel is 855 Nm. The wheel radius is 314 mm (thereabout) so torque to the tarmac is 2720 Newton.
Weighing 230 kg + 80 kg rider => theoretical acceleration = 8.4 m/s^2 or around 0.9g
0-100 kph (27.8 m/s) would take 3.1 seconds minimum (NOT accounting for wind resistance, reaction time, torque limiting etc etc)
Now for comparison a 2010 Triumph street triple 675 cc (because i owned 1 :) and it has a rather flat torque curve)
max torque is 69 Nm. But the total gear ratio in 1st is 14.2 (1.85*2.62*2.94) so the torque to wheel is 980 NM (125 NM more than the SR/F!!) The wheel radius is exactly the same (both 180/55/17 wheels) so the torque to the tarmac is 3120 Newton. Much more than the SR/F. The street triple also weighs less (189 kg) so the theoretical acceleration is 11.6 m/s^2 or around 1.2g. The theoretical 0-100kph time would be 2.4 seconds. Obviously time is lost for revving through the range and fiddling the clutch.
Now if you would use figures of a more modern ICE bike the Newton to the tarmac are be even higher.
Ducati Panigale V4 2020 :124 Nm, 198 kg wet 1.8*38/14*41/16=12.5 => 1552 Nm to the wheel (almost TWICE the SR/F)
Easiest solution for an SR/F to gain 0-100 kph time is a larger belt drive ratio. So either a larger rear sprocket and/or a smaller front sprocket (and a stronger belt :) ) An 18 teeth front sprocket would yield a 10% increase in torque to the tarmac, and would probably fit with the standard belt using the standard belt tensioners. Topspeed would obviously suffer as well, restricting it to "only" 180 kph. It would probably have a (negative) impact on belt life as well due to the tighter radius at the front sprocket and the added strain in the belt.
-
Thank you for the sound mathematical rationale, remmie ; what a great forum this is.
I'll leave sprocket exchanges to the mechanically inclined (everything beyond 12V (1) puts me in life danger), and put all my hopes on clutch fiddlers to defend the Zero colours.
(1) (OK, that's electricity, not mechanics, the latter which would put me even more solidly in Jackass (2) territory)
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackass_(franchise) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackass_(franchise))