ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: motorrad36 on January 09, 2020, 12:50:25 AM
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Why couldn't we charge faster than normal (my normal is 120v off a wall plug) from a J-1772 station -> accessory power port by the motor? Same place the delta-q chargers plug in. Is it because there is no "charger" in-line that tells the station what amount of kWh to pump out? As you can see, I do not necessarily get the ins and outs of EVs.
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Output from J station AC
Input on charge input DC
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The J-station doesn't actually charge the battery, your on-board charger does. (This is different than a DC fast charging station.)
So unless you change the on-board charger, that's your limitation.
So yes, some bikes do charge faster from J-station than the standard outlet with with the 3, 6, and 12 KW chargers on-board. But unless you have that charger on board, you don't. That's why some people carry that extra charger on-board!
-Crissa
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Why couldn't we charge faster than normal (my normal is 120v off a wall plug) from a J-1772 station -> accessory power port by the motor? Same place the delta-q chargers plug in. Is it because there is no "charger" in-line that tells the station what amount of kWh to pump out? As you can see, I do not necessarily get the ins and outs of EVs.
With all Zero chargers (except the 2020 Zero SR/F) the current decreases as the voltage increases, keeping the wattage output the same regardless if 120 VAC or 240 VAC is used.
But this is because of the design of the chargers, has nothing to do with the j-1772. You get the same charge rate at 120 VAC as 240 VAC or a J-1772. Slow!
With the SR/F or Energica the charge current will stay the same as the voltage is doubled, giving double the KW charging as the voltage doubles. That means charge twice as fast from 240 VAC or from a J1772 (which uses 240 VAC).
Older Zeros as well as the HD LW will drop the current as the voltage is increased, which IMO, is a bad idea. But must be cheaper to build as the charge wattage is half on 240 VAC. Why a 30K$ bike would do this amazes me. With cheaper Zeros, I can understand.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That's not how chargers work, though, Don.
They're rated in wattage. Because that (and the heat it creates) is the limiting factor. So if you raise the voltage the current has to go down.
Nothing is wasted. You're still using the full wattage of the charger, unless your charger is much bigger than your supply (which is what the J-station is supposed to communicate).
-Crissa
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That's not how chargers work, though, Don.
They're rated in wattage. Because that (and the heat it creates) is the limiting factor. So if you raise the voltage the current has to go down.
Nothing is wasted. You're still using the full wattage of the charger, unless your charger is much bigger than your supply (which is what the J-station is supposed to communicate).
-Crissa
I never said any power (wattage) is wasted. This is NOT about efficiency. But here are the facts. In your Zero charger, the current goes down as the input AC voltage goes up, keeping the charge time the same as the output DC wattage is the same with double the AC input voltage. Same with the Harley LW when charged with 240 VAC vs. 120 VAC.
In the SR/F or my Energica the output DC wattage DOUBLES as the AC input voltage doubles. These are FACTS, not opinions. That means on 240 VAC, my Energica will charge in half the time as on 120 VAC. On your Zero, the charge time will not change regardless if you use 240 VAC or 120 VAC. Again, these are the facts, not my opinion.
There is more than one way to design an EV charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Expanding on what kasmtk said, a charger is essentially an AC to DC converter. It takes the 110 to 240 volts from your mains outlet (or whatever a charger station kicks out) and converts it to a lower DC voltage that it puts straight into the battery (with some monitoring and adjustment for the current). That voltage is going to be close to the voltage of the battery (I think 92v in the case of Zeros). The accessory charging port is a straight shot to the battery for that voltage to go, so if that voltage is too high and AC (i.e. connecting a charging station or the mains to it) then not only will it not charge it will cause some serious damage to the battery.
If you're wondering why AC won't charge a battery, think of DC like a foot pump and you're inflating a tyre. Now for AC imagine if every time you lifted your foot up to give it another pump and push more air into the tyre it instead sucked the air back out that you just put in it. A battery is a bit more complicated because instead of sucking current back out of it you're instead pushing it in the wrong way (so I guess you could think of it like someone pushing on the outside of the tyre when you lift your foot) and that damages the battery, sort of like how you could damage the check valve on the pump by forcing air into it.
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In the SR/F or my Energica the output DC wattage DOUBLES as the AC input voltage doubles. These are FACTS, not opinions. That means on 240 VAC, my Energica will charge in half the time as on 120 VAC. On your Zero, the charge time will not change regardless if you use 240 VAC or 120 VAC. Again, these are the facts, not my opinion.
No, the total wattage of the device doesn't increase.
The SR/F comes with a 3kW charger, the older Zeros come with a 1.4KW charger standard. The Energica comes with a giant charger in comparison (in wattage, weight, and volume).
Raising the input voltage doesn't change how much the charger can accept. Your Energica can't charge at more than the station can provide - even if it is 240v, if the station only allows 1.4KW (like the portable granny charger J-stations) your 240v charger will run at a lower current.
-Crissa
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The SR/F comes with a 3kW charger,
And what happens when you use 120 VAC on a SR/F? Are you saying it will still charge at 3 KW?
Well, think about this. 20 amps times 120 VAC is only 2,400 watts capable. But the norm is to not go over 16 amps continuously (only a few minutes above 16 amps should be considered acceptable) with household current. The 80% safety rule is on current draw. That leaves 1,920 watts available from a standard AC outlet.
How do you get 3 KW charging from 120 vac with their supplied 120 VAC input cable when only 2,400 is possible before the CB trips and only 1,920 watts is safe? Or are you claiming the SR/F cannot charge with 120 VAC?
I am claiming it will then charge at HALF the 3 KW, or ~1.5 KW, which proves my point that the current does NOT decrease at 240 VAC to get the spec of 3KW.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The Calex chargers on Zero S/DS/FX (Gen2) models target a certain amount of power (1.3kW or 650W for FX) and draw half the current at 220V than they do at 110V AC.
The Rapid Charge Modules on the SRF draw 3kW at 220V and 1.5kW at 110V if I recall right, and target / limit to a current level (13-14A presumably).
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There are two types of chargers for ev vehicles. Built in chargers, and stand free chargers. All chargers supply the voltage required for the vehicle. One volt to what ever is required. Hundreds of volts if required. Then all convert to direct current.
My Prius prime will charge at 1200 watts at 110 volts and 2400 watts at 220 volts. 5 hours and 2.5 hours.
My SR/F well charge at about 1200 watts at 110 volts and up to 6000 watts at 240 volts. 10 hours and 2 hours.
My Livewire well charge at (good question). It takes up to 13 hours to charge at 110 volts. On 300+ volts of dc current it takes about an hour.
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The SR/F comes with a 3kW charger,
And what happens when you use 120 VAC on a SR/F? Are you saying it will still charge at 3 KW?
Seems I already answered this.
Raising the input voltage doesn't change how much the charger can accept. Your Energica can't charge at more than the station can provide - even if it is 240v, if the station only allows 1.4KW (like the portable granny charger J-stations) your 240v on-board charger will run at a lower current.
-Crissa
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Seems I already answered this.Raising the input voltage doesn't change how much the charger can accept. Your Energica can't charge at more than the station can provide - even if it is 240v, if the station only allows 1.4KW (like the portable granny charger J-stations) your 240v on-board charger will run at a lower current.
All J1772 stations are 240 VAC. So to avoid confusion, talk about home charging where we have a choice to use either 120 or 240 VAC.
BTW, most J1772 charge stations on the road are good for more than 7KW. Some less, some more. But they are all 240 VAC and that voltage doesn't change much.
My Energica on a J charger that can provide 7 KW will charge at 3 KW. Your Zero on-board charger will charge at HALF that rate, around 1.4 KW using the same J 7 KW capable charger. You have to wait twice as long as my Energica on a 7KW J station.
But your Zero as well as my Energica on 120 VAC will charge at the same rate of around 1.4KW. We both wait the same on 120 VAC. But I charge twice as fast as you do using my bike on the exact same J-1772 7 KW charger.
And that is FACT. So if the current does the same in both types of chargers, try to explain the double power of watts into my Energica compared to your Zero at 240 VAC.
It is less confusing if we discuss home charging such as a 240 VAC drier outlet compared to a 120 VAC home outlet. The we both know there is NO communication of any type between such. I charge twice as fast as you do on 240, but we both charge the same rate on 120 VAC. You want to try to explain how that is possible?
It's the design of the Zero J-charger in the bikes. Zero and the 30K$ Harley does it the same way. No decrease in charge time with 240 VAC compared to 120 VAC. Half the charge time with the Zero SR/F or my Energica on a 7KW J plug than your Zero or a Livewire. That is because your current drops as the voltage increases. My Energica doesn't. The SR/F doesn't.
BTW, think about what happens when you increase the voltage across a resistor. The draw current increases in proportion. But in your Zero charger, it is designed to draw less current as the voltage is increases to keep the wattage the same at any voltage, 90 to 240 VAC. Uses a special circuit in the charger to do such to keep the power down.
A better example. Zero Delta Quick chargers. they are 1.4 KW at 120 VAC or on 240 VAC no difference in charge times.
Compare to my external Elcon charger. 1.25 KW at 120 VAC in. 2.5KW when 240 VAC is on the input. Half the charge time on 240 VAC because the current did NOT drop.
-Don- Reno, NV
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A better example
...What are you even talking about?
That your higher wattage charger charges at a higher wattage is not news.
Why do you seem to think that a lower wattage charger should be able to charge at a higher wattage while charging, just because you're running at a higher voltage?
That's not how this works.
-Crissa
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My Energica on a J charger that can provide 7 KW will charge at 3 KW. Your Zero on-board charger will charge at HALF that rate, around 1.4 KW using the same J 7 KW capable charger. You have to wait twice as long as my Energica on a 7KW J station.
But your Zero as well as my Energica on 120 VAC will charge at the same rate of around 1.4KW. We both wait the same on 120 VAC. But I charge twice as fast as you do using my bike on the exact same J-1772 7 KW charger.
And that is FACT. So if the current does the same in both types of chargers, try to explain the double power of watts into my Energica compared to your Zero at 240 VAC.
It's not so much that the Energica is charging twice as fast on 240v, it's 120v that's cutting the charging rate in half. It has a 3kw charger so it's going to charge at 3kw as long as it doesn't exceed the current limit required for the voltage. If the Zero only has a 1.4kw charger then of course it's not going to charge at a higher rate than that even if it has current to spare, if it instead had a 3kw charger then it would charge twice as fast at 240v. If we imagine that the Zero had half the current limit it does then it would behave like the Energica does, it would charge at half the rate on 120v and would require 240v to charge at full speed.
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That's not how this works.
That is exactly how it works, depending on charger design.
Check the level two specs and compare to the level one spec on various electric bikes and then perhaps you will understand.
IYO, what is wrong with these facts:
Zero (except SR/F )charges at around 1.4 KW on any voltage 90 to 240 VAC.
My Energica charges at 1.5 KW on 120 VAC but 3.0 KW on 240 VAC. So does the Zero SR/F. So does my Elcon Chargers (but more like 1.25 KW on 120 VAC but 2.5 KW on 240 VAC with the Elcons).
Do we agree on that much?
-Don- Reno, NV
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It's not so much that the Energica is charging twice as fast on 240v, it's 120v that's cutting the charging rate in half.
I think we're saying the same thing. Half the wattage at 120 VAC is the same as saying twice the wattage at 240 VAC. But the Zero charger limits the current so it does not increase the wattage with the increased voltage. So with the increased voltage, the current is decreasing to keep the charger in it's safe low limit of 1.4 KW output.
The Energica lets the current rise with voltage so the wattage will double when the voltage is doubled. Just as it would on a fixed value resistor. A one ohm resistor will get twice as hot when the voltage across it is doubled. The Zero chargers lower the current as the voltage goes up to keep the power down to the safe level it can handle. IOW, cheap. And a cheap low wattage L2 charger is on the 30K$ Harley Livewire.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That's not really down to charger design, in the sense that it's some sort of different architecture that allows it to increase wattage with voltage, it just the fact the charger is designed to output a higher wattage. Slap an aftermarket charger in a Zero designed to put out a higher wattage, or even the OEM charge tank, and it will behave the same as the Energica. It will still charge at the same rate on 120v, because that's what the infrastructure can support (in terms of current), but hook it up to 240v and it will charge faster. There's nothing special about the Energica, it just has a higher wattage charger.
EDIT: Think about it this way, would the Energica charge twice as fast again if you hooked it up to 480v? No, because it has a 3kw charger. It would just draw half the current (well, assuming it could handle 480v).
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That's not really down to charger design, in the sense that it's some sort of different architecture that allows it to increase wattage with voltage, it just the fact the charger is designed to output a higher wattage. Slap an aftermarket charger in a Zero designed to put out a higher wattage, or even the OEM charge tank, and it will behave the same as the Energica.
Of course if it safely lets the current stay the same as the voltage is doubled, you get twice the wattage. We are still saying the same thing.
It will still charge at the same rate on 120v, because that's what the infrastructure can support (in terms of current), but hook it up to 240v and it will charge faster. There's nothing special about the Energica, it just has a higher wattage charger.
Yes, but only higher on 240 VAC because it lets the current stay the same as the voltage is increased.
EDIT: Think about it this way, would the Energica charge twice as fast again if you hooked it up to 480v? No, because it has a 3kw charger. It would just draw half the current (well, assuming it could handle 480v).
I doubt that very much. I think the charger would be damaged. In the two seconds it takes to blow out, it probably will charge twice as fast for that two seconds. I doubt if there is any circuit to reduce the current in the Energica charger when the 240 VAC is doubled (unless it's a fuse of some type!).
No, I will not look for 480 VAC to prove my point! :) But I would expect the charger to be toast. There would be no practical reason to limit the current on the Energica charger for 480 VAC. But there is a practical reason to do such on a Zero from the operating range of 90 to 250 VAC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Dontom: My SR/F came with a 3500 watt charger times 2. When I plug in a j plug capable of 7 Kw at 240 volts it charges 5 times faster than at 120 volts.
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Dontom: My SR/F came with a 3500 watt charger times 2. When I plug in a j plug capable of 7 Kw at 240 volts it charges 5 times faster than at 120 volts.
As expected for the Zero SR/F. Your chargers are different than all the other Zeros as I have explained in several of the posts here where I added "except the SR/F".
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, a charger is not a resistor.
I don't know how to explain that to you.
The on-board charger has a certain wattage. It cannot exceed that wattage. If it's compatible with a J-plug, it can be told to operate below that wattage (within constraints of its design), that's why the J-plug has a signal line.
The charger on stock S and X Zeros is 1.4KW. Hence, raising the voltage means less current draw because it cannot exceed that wattage. Just as the 3KW one can't exceed 3KW, no matter how much voltage or current is available.
-Crissa
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Of course if it safely lets the current stay the same as the voltage is doubled, you get twice the wattage. We are still saying the same thing.
Not exactly. It gets twice the wattage because it's designed to have that much wattage, no more. The Zero chargers are simply designed to output less wattage and they're capable of that at a lower voltage.
EDIT: Think about it this way, would the Energica charge twice as fast again if you hooked it up to 480v? No, because it has a 3kw charger. It would just draw half the current (well, assuming it could handle 480v).
I doubt that very much. I think the charger would be damaged. In the two seconds it takes to blow out, it probably will charge twice as fast for that two seconds. I doubt if there is any circuit to reduce the current in the Energica charger when the 240 VAC is doubled (unless it's a fuse of some type!).
No, I will not look for 480 VAC to prove my point! :) But I would expect the charger to be toast. There would be no practical reason to limit the current on the Energica charger for 480 VAC. But there is a practical reason to do such on a Zero from the operating range of 90 to 250 VAC.
-Don- Reno, NV
Like I said, let's assume it could handle 480v. By your reasoning it would keep the same current resulting it twice the wattage output and twice as fast charging. That wouldn't happen. Chargers are designed to put out a certain wattage and wattage is current times voltage. For the sake of simplicity let's say it's instead a 2400w charger. At 240v it will draw 10 amps, at 480v (again, assuming it is designed to accept that much voltage) it will draw 5 amps, and at 120v it would need to draw 20 amps. The thing is drawing 20 amps from a 120v outlet isn't very safe so it draws less, outputting less wattage. All chargers have a current limit inherent on the fact that they have a wattage limit.
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Don, a charger is not a resistor.
I don't know how to explain that to you.
-Crissa
Wrong! Any load has resistance (or impedance if AC). But that wasn't my point. Point is as voltage is increased on a steady load, the current will increase in proportion unless a special circuit is designed to lower it as the voltage is increased. As all the Zeros chargers do (except the SR/F).
If you increase the voltage on a 120 VAC lamp, the wattage (converted to heat and brightness energy) increases until the lamp burns itself out. But it is possible to build a circuit to drop the current as the voltage is increased so the lamp doesn't blow out and stays at the same brightness on 240 VAC as on 120 VAC. And that is why your Zero on-board charger doesn't blow out on 240 VAC and has the same output in watts as on 120 VAC. It draws half the current on 240 VAC to drop the wattage on 240 VAC.
No doubt by Energica does NOT have such a circuit (no need) and will blow out if I double the voltage from 240 to 480. So would your Zero, because it is only designed to handle 250 VAC max input. But from 120 VAC to 240, my current will double to get twice the wattage as your DC output wattage will stay the same from 120 to 240 VAC on the input.
-Don- Reno, NV
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A charger is not a resistor, Don.
It's a charger. Otherwise we'd just hook the battery up to mains, and we don't do that.
A lamp is a resistor. Also, you put more voltage through it and it'll blow up. You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current.
-Crissa
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You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current.
That depends. If the PC power supply is 120 VAC max and you put in 240 VAC, you just blew out your PC power supply with the excessive voltage which caused excessive current and wattage (heat).
But if it is designed to run on 240 VAC as well as 120 VAC, then the current will drop as the voltage is increased because it was designed to do such, just as is your zero charger. Requires a special circuit. Is getting to be a norm because much of the world uses 240 VAC (most if not all of Europe), but the USA uses mostly 120 VAC, Japan uses 100 VAC, etc. So a lot of equipment these days are designed for a world market of 90 to 250 VAC or so.
More than around 50 years ago, almost any 120 VAC item would instantly be damaged by 240 VAC. Just about any power supply or charger. Now the 120 VAC to 240 VAC input is rather common by design.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If the PC power supply is 120 VAC max...
...And this has to do with what?
-Crissa
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But if it is designed to run on 240 VAC as well as 120 VAC, then the current will drop as the voltage is increased because it was designed to do such, just as is your zero charger. Requires a special circuit.
I still don't understand why you think the Energica charger is any different. It's not just some dumb constant current device, it's part of a machine costing tens of thousands of dollars with a massive battery that is liable to catch fire if handled incorrectly. It will be precisely and accurately monitoring the incoming and outgoing voltage and current (and by extension the wattage) and varying them when needed. There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't have the capability to limit itself to the designed wattage.
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If the PC power supply is 120 VAC max...
...And this has to do with what?
-Crissa
The subject that you brought up, where you said:
"You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current."
-Don- Reno, NV
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There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't have the capability to limit itself to the designed wattage.
There is no reason to expect that anybody to try to put 480 VAC on it. So why limit it outside of its expected ratings?
-Don- Reno, NV
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"You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current."
A lamp is a resistor. Also, you put more voltage through it and it'll blow up. You put more voltage through a PC power supply and... It consumes less current.
I think at this point you're just trolling, Don.
-Crissa
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There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't have the capability to limit itself to the designed wattage.
There is no reason to expect that anybody to try to put 480 VAC on it. So why limit it outside of its expected ratings?
-Don- Reno, NV
It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.
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It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.
I never said anything here was a software limit. I never mentioned the word "software" here, have I?
Not counting below . . .
Likewise, things designed for 120VAC max will usually blow out at 240 VAC as the current and wattage will also double, making more destructive heat. But there are ways for the design to prevent such (which can include software) which is quite common these days as many items are made for a world market today so 100 to 240 VAC input voltage is a common design these days. But if the maximum allowed wattage will allow it, it can let the current double to get double the wattage output. Or else design to make sure that doesn't happen because the wattage cannot handle it (such as the 1.4 KW Zero OBCs).
-Don- Reno, NV
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It won't be a software limit, the components just won't be able to handle it. Plug it into 480v and the first thing to go will be a fuse of some kind, but even if that fails or you bypass it there will be other stuff inside it that won't be rated for such a high voltage.
I never said anything here was a software limit. I never mentioned the word "software" here, have I?
I wasn't saying you did. If it was a software limit then it would be intentional but it's not, it's just not designed to handle higher voltages.
Likewise, things designed for 120VAC max will usually blow out at 240 VAC as the current and wattage will also double, making more destructive heat. But there are ways for the design to prevent such (which can include software) which is quite common these days as many items are made for a world market today so 100 to 240 VAC input voltage is a common design these days. But if the maximum allowed wattage will allow it, it can let the current double to get double the wattage output. Or else design to make sure that doesn't happen because the wattage cannot handle it (such as the 1.4 KW Zero OBCs).
-Don- Reno, NV
Sure, the Energica's max designed wattage output allows greater current draw at 240v versus 120v, Zero's max wattage doesn't. That's all it is, the only difference is the wattage output of the charger, nothing more. There's nothing special about the Energica charger, it has software controlling its output just like the Zero. That software is limiting its output on 120v, if it was safe to draw twice the current at that voltage then it would do so.
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There's nothing special about the Energica charger, it has software controlling its output just like the Zero. That software is limiting its output on 120v, if it was safe to draw twice the current at that voltage then it would do so.
I never said the Energica charger was special. In fact, the Zero charger is more "special" because of the way it accepts any voltage for the same wattage by having the input current drop as the voltage raises. But yeah, that's how they design a low wattage charger to accept a higher voltage.
A higher wattage charger will let the input current increase as the voltage is increased, so there is more output wattage with the higher voltage than the lower voltage.
I don't understand how my simple true statement has caused so much confusion here.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The Zero charger is just smaller.
Smaller in wattage, weight, size, and cost.
It's not special, as taking either input in is, as I pointed out, standard among consumer electronics.
-Crissa
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The Zero charger is just smaller.
Smaller in wattage, weight, size, and cost.
It's not special, as taking either input in is, as I pointed out, standard among consumer electronics.
-Crissa
Which I also pointed out. It is almost standard today because of a world market of different voltages. Back in the old days, almost any item (or perhaps every item) that would accept 120 VAC normally would be destroyed instantly by 240 VAC as the current and wattage would double and destroy it in seconds. It takes a "special" added circuit to prevent such, which is getting very common these days, but not many years ago.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It takes a "special" added circuit to prevent such,
No, it does not. It's not a 'special circuit' - it's literally in every computer that plugs in the wall. Being able to accept these two steps of voltage does not require 'special' building because it already needs to create targeted, controlled voltage levels for the electronics and charging.
If it's in nearly everything, it's not special, is it?
It turns out that the coils needed to do one (and make it robust to deal with fluctuations) is the same as you need to do the other.
-Crissa
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Let me join in this ridiculous discussion:
Switched Mode Power supply... This is what you guys are talking about.
They can be designed with a large "voltage in" spread. But there power rating is fixed (dictated by parts used, heat, ...) So that is what all electric vehicle chargers are, switched mode power supplies.
That is why they take the same time to charge with 110V in than with 220V in, they just get to their power rating by requiring less amps when on 220V or more amps when on 110V.
The reason the Energica chargers can charge faster with 220V in, is because if it would be doing the same thing on 110V it would require to much ampere to get the same power figure - watts as P= UxI - from the normal house powersocket and would trip breakers. So they limit it on 110V. If you would give it the amps it needs to reach the same power it can have on 220V it would do it no fuss as it is rated for this power.
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Let me join in this ridiculous discussion:
Switched Mode Power supply... This is what you guys are talking about.
I agree my simple statement as turned into something ridiculous here.
Thanks for the name of the "special" circuit that does such! I am glad you joined in here!
It's really simply a characteristic of a switching power supply.
IOW, the Zeros (except the SR/F) and the Harley LW uses switched mode chargers. The SR/F and my Enegica does NOT use such. They use LINEAR MODE (https://www.controldesign.com/articles/2017/linear-power-supply-vs-switched/). They use an external transformer to go from 120 VAC to 240 VAC as 240 VAC is the only voltage the charger is designed for in the Energica and the SR/F. But the Zero (non SR/F) and the LW use the Switched Mode chargers and can accept any voltage 90 to 250 VAC (IIRC) by switching modes which will drop the input current on higher voltages for the same output wattage very UNlike Linear Mode chargers.
If this doesn't clear it up, nothing will. And then I give up.
Thanks again for the name of the "special" circuit used. But perhaps not so "special" these days, for around the last forty to fifty years. Switched Mode. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Would it be possible for people to just let their computer mice cool down a bit? One of the main reasons I like the forum format rather than a social media format (e.g. Facebook) is because it's generally more information, less pissing war.
I feel like this thread (and a couple of others) have degenerated into "No, it's not like you said, it's this way!" and back again. It's tiresome, uninformative, and often inaccurate all around. A fairly simple and newbie question ("why can't I just plug the battery straight into the wall?") has become a mosh pit fight over some pretty irrelevant minutiae. Much of the discussion is incorrect and invalid, and all of it is pretty pointless and irrelevant.
Let's just back off a bit, okay?
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No matter what the input voltage is, Don, the charger is only rated for a certain wattage. That's the limitation. Neither has a 'special' anything. The standard Zero charger is just smaller. That's all. It couldn't be 'just larger' or it would be larger and not fit in the space they gave it.
The power supply is not special or unique, it's required to create the voltage that the battery itself wants. It would be there regardless of the input voltage, unless the station itself managed it (which is basically how DC quick charging stations work).
Doug's right, this is a pretty pointless argument.
-Crissa
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Well, it might result in a few links and sentences added to the unofficial manual, just to sort out peoples' thinking. But only because of the hyperlinks to external explanations worth citing.
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I would love to jump into a ridiculous discussion, or contribute to a thread creep, but I have no idea what you are talking about. ;)
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Doug's right, this is a pretty pointless argument.
What "argument"? I may debate a subject, but I will try to not argue anything. IMO, there is a big difference between a debate and an argument.
I was considering not replying here any more a while back when i discovered we were not communicating all that well, and i see we still are not. So I give up here and I will not bring up the issue again. I am done with this thread.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Debate == argument
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I must admit it's painful to read when someone who doesn't understand electrical engineering is trying to explain electrical engineering to someone that has worked with it for 30+ years...
@DonTom: i feel you.. Fortunately, being in a country where 120VAC doesn't exist outside theoretical examples in a schoolbook, we've experienced somewhat similiar, yet with different challenges, discussions regarding 230VAC and 400VAC..
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If you have a Zero, you have 100v three-phase alternating electricity for the motor, now don't you?
Now who doesn't understand electrical engineering? Ugh.
-Crissa
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If you have a Zero, you have 100v three-phase alternating electricity for the motor, now don't you?
no.. i don't and neither do you..
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Then what I read was wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Motorcycles
Doesn't change that a switching power supply is a pretty standard part required for a Zero charger. Or any charger using AC input.
-Crissa
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"a switching power supply" is not the universal explanation for "accepting any type of input, resulting in same output regardless"..
A power supply having multiple voltage input possibilities is JUST THAT.. it bears NO EFFECT on how the output stage of a charger works.
it could have a max output of 1300w or being able to deal out 3000w.. It could have other types of logic tied to load meaning it wont try to overload a normal circuit yet still be able to support a higher load when available.
My point (and several others in this thread) is that a charger is not just one type of setup, it could be able to do more than just one level of charge.
Just because Zero's default charger is limited to a very low output charge while accepting a wide variety of input voltage doesn't make it the de facto standard of any and all chargers.. Voltage and Wattage are not the same thing, and arguing like they are doesn't change that..