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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Tudor on April 02, 2013, 07:26:32 PM
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I know this is way early to start a topic about next years model range, but I just can't help it. I just recently took the decision to postpone the buying of a zero until next year. It's frustrating but I'll try comforting myself by looking forward of having a 2014 FX instead.
If you don't mind, lets speculate about coming 2014 models:
What will happen with the current range, S, DS, FX, MX, XU?
The model range seems solid to me, I see no need to introduce a new model (for the adult market, but maybe a junior MX) and the MX, FX and DS can continue to coexist.
What does zero needs to update/change?
They introduced their own sealed motor this year - what will be next step? Gearing? Some kind of 2-speed, high-low gears or will they keep it direct? ABS on S/DS?
Batteries - what can be expected of batteries in the same price range as of today?
Also, - what do you want/hope to see in next years model range?
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Zero needs to step up to a Sevcon Size 6 controller (or build one in-house) for more power on their top bike. Not that the 2013 bikes NEED more power, at least across the board. Their 2013 motors are fine, I imagine they'll carry them for a few years. Perhaps cooling tweaks coupled with a bigger controller.
I'd love to see Zero integrate J1772 and more powerful AC charging. 3 kW should be standard, and 7 kW should be optional. Needs an obvious external end-of-charge indicator so the bike can be unplugged.
Faster Level 3 charging will require higher voltage battery packs. Most commercial chargers are limited to 100-125A, so Zero is already charging at 100A = 10 kW for the ZF11.4. A 200V pack could do 20-25 kW. Zero has a couple of years to get this right as L3 chargers settle on a standard.
There's already been a significant drop in highway power consumption from 2012 to 2013. Zero could probably cut this another 20% with fairings.
Current L1/L2 charge: 1.3 kW / 110 Wh/mile (mixed) = 12 miles/hour (100 miles in 8.5h)
Current L3 charge: 10 kW / 142 Wh/mile (hwy) = 70 miles/hour (100 miles in 1.43h)
Proposed L2 charge (standard): 3 kW / 100 Wh/mile (mixed) = 30 miles/hour (100 miles in 3.3h)
Proposed L2 charge (optional): 7 kW / 100 Wh/mile (hwy) = 70 miles/hour (100 miles in 1.43h)
Proposed L3 charge: 20 kW / 120 Wh/mile (hwy) = 166 miles/hour (100 miles in 0.6h)
25 kW charge (210 miles/hour) would put us in the same ballpark as Tesla Model S with a 100 kW supercharge (250 hwy miles/hour) and far beyond the Nissan Leaf with 48 kW CHAdeMO (~110 hwy miles/hour).
I'd like to see Zero retain the existing battery module system and system voltage for a year or two. 3 different power trains and battery voltages in 3 years is enough.
Edit: Zero also needs ABS, at least as an option. The next new electric bike I buy will have ABS.
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I spoke with Zero about their 2014 lineup while at the NYC motorcycle show and they said there will not be another quantum leap in technology for the 2014 lineup. In other words, if you get a 2013 model, your bike won't be blown away by next year's lineup (like 2011-12 and 12-13).
They will certainly make advancements and improvements, but they will probably work more on perfecting (and hopefully making less expensive) the current form of the motorcycles.
Unless, of course, they do make a breakthrough then all bets are off. ;)
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My guess is that Zero will be adding ABS soon. Not because of a big customer demand, as it will raise prices at least $500 or more, but because the Euro regulators will demand it for the bike to be sold there.
When I spoke with Richard Walker last summer, he mentioned that they had a marketing and vehicle improvement plan that extended into the 2015 model year. I got no hints what that might be, though. I am with benswing. I believe that the bikes will keep on improving each year, but I doubt any really big jumps in performance, technology or features will be offered next year - which might be a good thing for the company and consumers. Not everyone want to be an "early adopter". However, they could put a little more effort into the chassis and suspension, polish up the accessory and parts department a bit, and work on dealer expansion and education.
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Here's my wishes.
Some of you will remember that I originally wanted to buy an FX and then swap out he suspension with an XU providing a lower dirt bike with all of the power and performance of the FX. I found that I wouldn't have enough wheel clearance with the XU suspension so I'm riding a stock FX now (except for changes in tires and wider rear rim).
However, Zero is eliminating a significant portion of potential customers by not having a lower "stand-over height" high performance street legal dirt bike. Basically an FX that is lower for shorter riders.
My suggestions: All of the power train of the FX, frame, and geometry. A 17" rear wheel with wider tires and keep the 19" front wheel of the XU but with a wider tire. Then use a shorter high quality suspension, front and rear, with just enough clearance for an upgrade to good dirt riding knobbies (Zero seems to forget that we don't all stick with the tires they provide).
I was amazed and had a good laugh when the motorcycle mechanic near my shop took my new FX for a spin. He is short but has ridden all his life and at one time an accomplished motorcycle racer. He had difficulty getting completely up on the bike, so with it leaning over toward him, and a leg up across the seat, he opened the throttle and jumped up on the bike as it took off. If I had done what he did I would have been laying on the pavement, watching my new bike crash a few feet away! :'(
I would guess that Yamaha has sold millions of TW200's over the many years of its production because riders wives and girlfriends can straddle the bike and go dirt riding with them. That goes for short guys as well.
So, Zero, lets see a lower FX next year! 8)
Trikester
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I would like to have ABS on my next Zero!
From January 2016 ABS will be required above 125 cc with EU. Estimated 1/4 of 5.000 fatal accidents in Europe 2011 could have been avoided with ABS.
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Zero, please add hazard lights for us lane splitters.
+1 on ABS, but only use the good stuff!
more cargo options for all street models
+1 on L2 3kw charging
Add a model with fairings
passenger pegs on XU and FX
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protomech:very good points!
I talked to a Zero technician last and he mentioned the Size 6 Sevcon controller for 2014
this was of the record but it seems that they are thinking about that
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More cargo options
More accessories that add value
Better suspension
Faster charging
More battery capacity if possible
Lower price
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More cargo options
More accessories that add value
Better suspension
Faster charging
More battery capacity if possible
Lower price
It's that lower price request that is the hard nut to crack. ;)
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More international dealers, specifically AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, ASIA.
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It's that lower price request that is the hard nut to crack. ;)
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Yes, but if the price point were lower a lot more riders would consider Zero and if volumes can go up substantially then costs / unit can come down.
It is one of those Chicken/Egg problems.
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More international dealers, specifically AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, ASIA.
+++++
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Glad to hear Zero is considering model stability. Getting a new bike every two years is a lot easier than every year.
I am sure Harlan will be doing a -6 controller so we all have access if we choose. Please feel free to chime in here Harlan if you can talk about your plans.
Faster charging is a bit of the chicken/egg thing as well. I've had to look for 1772 L2 chargers for the Tesla and, unless you live in a forward thinking area (Canada, California) they are few, far between and low current. I would think it would be hard for Zero to spend a lot of base cost dollars to put bigger on board chargers on their bikes for a small portion of the market. That will change with time but perhaps it only makes sense as an option today.
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They are already make a semi-dirt bike with a low seat Trikester, the DS. The amount of people that would want a proper off road capable electric bike with low ground clearance is very small indeed. Just look at KTM, they are probably the company most famous in the world for dirt bikes and even their 125cc model is very tall.
I had this discussion with Zero's UK Rep a couple of weeks ago and he said they have no plans currently for ABS, its just too expensive. I mentioned fairings and he thought that was also unlikely in the mid-term future. Interestingly he doesn't expect prices to come down, the reason being that Zero know full well that the major ICE companies are quietly developing electric bikes and when they do release them Zero will never be able to compete on price. So Zero will continue to innovate and produce a premium product for people that will pay to have the best of the best. The Ducati/MV Agusta of the EV world you might say. Notice that Tesla have discontinued the cheapest model in their range because of lack of interest.
Size 6 would seem like an easy option but does the new motor have the cooling capacity in its current guise? I would expect further development and more power in 2015.
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They are already make a semi-dirt bike with a low seat Trikester, the DS. The amount of people that would want a proper off road capable electric bike with low ground clearance is very small indeed. Just look at KTM, they are probably the company most famous in the world for dirt bikes and even their 125cc model is very tall.
I already have two DS's. I like my FX as a lighter and better performing dirt bike than the DS's, but there are a lot of people, as I have said, that cannot fit on it. Of course everything is a compromise but that shouldn't stop development of a model that would expand the market. I think Yamaha has been cranking out TW200's since about 1983 and they are still cranking them out, because a lot of people can ride them. Of course they are not for the super serious dirt rider but there are a lot more recreational dirt riders than the super serious. If you are not doing big jumps and catching big air you don't need massive amounts of suspension travel. It would be interesting to know how many hundreds of thousands, or millions, of those bikes have been sold by Yamaha. Plus a lower FX would outperform the TW200 any day. 8)
Trikester
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I'd like to see the 2014 keep the 110 charging and add a level 2 J17 port. I'd also like to see the fake radiator shrouds go away. I know beauty is in the mind of the beholder and I am not falling in love with the 2013 looks. I find the Empulse very appealing to my eye but prefer the light weight and more silent riding of the Zero. What's nice is that the 2013s are not drawing the bucks out of my wallet so I am not going to mind hanging on to my 2012 for another year. I do hope both Zero and Brammo have record sales as I'd love to see what comes next!
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I think we'll see minor evolutions, but nothing big. It seems to me the board will want to start recouping R&D money. I don't see the charging options changing. Although, a 3kW charger and J1772 socket standard would be a nice and give it an advantage if competing with the Empulse. I definitely don't see the motor changing, it's pretty badass. The battery pack might grow a bit bigger though. Not a lot, just a bit. I definitely see a size 6 controller coming stock if Hollywood Electrics starts selling their upgrade kit in decent numbers.
As far wants, the S has got to start coming with real wheels and tires. I know the bias ply tires on the bike are really good, and you can spoon on a 140 radial on the back, but you are still pinching tires, and bias-ply tires are not radials not matter how you slice it. A 120/160 tire combo for the S (which would mean a frame and swingarm revision) with an upgraded controller and some custom suspension sounds like an actual Empulse killer. With a Size 6-controller I'd like to see Zero take a real shot at making the DS knock the NC-700 and all those other middle weight adventure bikes to the floor. Ultimately I'd love to see Zero taking BMW head on in the adventure bike segment. Maybe not in range, but just in out right performance. With the addition of their newest board member, I think they now have all the know-how to do just that.
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The difference in cost between a sevcon size 4 and a size 6 controller is pretty small, maybe $100 at OEM prices. There will be a significant amount of validation and testing work to be done for sure - maybe Hollywood Electrics has already done this? or Zero already has and HE has early access? - but even with that rolled in the cost will surely be less than upgrading the controller on the aftermarket.
It also makes for a smoother upgrade path, and a compelling reason to upgrade to the 2014 bikes from the 2013.
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I don't think it would be possible for me to be less interested in ABS and radial tires.
All I care about for improvement is range, range, range. Oh, and range.
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I don't think it would be possible for me to be less interested in ABS and radial tires.
All I care about for improvement is range, range, range. Oh, and range.
I can't imagine why I would want any more power or acceleration than I have on my 2013 FX with its size 4 controller. I go with "nicktulloh's statement quoted above.
Even though I prefer riding the FX for its handling and performance, especially in the dirt, I'll be keeping my 2012 DS ZF6 for the longer fire-road and highway rides, solely because of its extra range. When I go to spend my annual week in the Klamath Forest this June, riding fire-roads, I'll be taking the 2012 DS instead of my new 2013 FX because I need the greater range. How I would love to have my newest Zero instead :'(
Trikester
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I was on the fence between a 2012 DS or the 2013 FX. I really wanted the FX for the new motor and real tire sizes but they kept making me better deals on the the 2012 until I finally jumped with the cash for carbon deal.
Now that I have 1300 miles on my 2012 DS I am glad that I got the ZF9 over the FX just for the range. The range is a big deal for these bikes the way that I ride and more range would be really nice.
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Ultimately I'd love to see Zero taking BMW head on in the adventure bike segment. Maybe not in range, but just in out right performance. With the addition of their newest board member, I think they now have all the know-how to do just that.
That is precisely the opposite of what they should be doing imo. You will never sell an electric bike to an adventure bike rider because they want to be able to ride 1000 miles in a day and EV tech is a long long way from that. They are upmarket commuter bikes imo. Akin to the Honda Hornet 600, GSR750, Suzuki Bandit, Yamaha Fazer etc. Most of the people i know that ride bikes will only start paying attention to my funny electric bike when it is faster than their GSXR on the local hooning roads. Its sad but true. When this happens they won't care how far it goes and the range anxiety problem is solved.
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Even though I prefer riding the FX for its handling and performance, especially in the dirt, I'll be keeping my 2012 DS ZF6 for the longer fire-road and highway rides, solely because of its extra range. When I go to spend my annual week in the Klamath Forest this June, riding fire-roads, I'll be taking the 2012 DS instead of my new 2013 FX because I need the greater range. How I would love to have my newest Zero instead :'(
Trikester
I'm a little surprised that you see significantly more range on the DS.
Zero says 75 miles city / 42 combined for the 2012 DS ZF6.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/2012/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/2012/specs.php)
Zero says 70 miles city / 43 combined for the 2013 FX ZF5.7
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/specs.php)
Maybe the city riding difference is magnified at lower dirt speeds?
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Ultimately I'd love to see Zero taking BMW head on in the adventure bike segment. Maybe not in range, but just in out right performance. With the addition of their newest board member, I think they now have all the know-how to do just that.
That is precisely the opposite of what they should be doing imo. You will never sell an electric bike to an adventure bike rider because they want to be able to ride 1000 miles in a day and EV tech is a long long way from that. They are upmarket commuter bikes imo. Akin to the Honda Hornet 600, GSR750, Suzuki Bandit, Yamaha Fazer etc. Most of the people i know that ride bikes will only start paying attention to my funny electric bike when it is faster than their GSXR on the local hooning roads. Its sad but true. When this happens they won't care how far it goes and the range anxiety problem is solved.
Yes but Zero doesn't make sport bikes. Leave the liter slayer to Brammo and eCRP, I say. But Zero's (perceived?) strong point is off road ability. Not sure where I heard it but I believe the adventure bike segment is out selling sportbikes right now. And I know that these folks will want the ability to do 1000 miles a day, but how many actually ever see the dirt? We can't push battery tech any further than it is being pushed. But everything else is fair game. So my thinking was making a "cool" adventure bike is the off road wannabe equivalent of making a liter slayer for the sportbike guys that can't take a corner. ;)
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I'm a little surprised that you see significantly more range on the DS.
Zero says 75 miles city / 42 combined for the 2012 DS ZF6.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/2012/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/2012/specs.php)
Zero says 70 miles city / 43 combined for the 2013 FX ZF5.7
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/specs.php)
Maybe the city riding difference is magnified at lower dirt speeds?
Well I don't have much data yet for the new FX but just from the highway ride I did to cutoff (46 mi) I would guess that I could have had 10 or 15 more miles on the 2012 DS ZF6
More riding on the FX will better tell what the difference is and also the FX mileage should come up some after more battery use and bearings break-in. The DS mileage did.
It could turn out to be a better match between the two bikes after more riding. It would be interesting to do identical rides on the two on the same day in light conditions.
Trikester