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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gt13013 on June 27, 2018, 01:34:31 AM

Title: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on June 27, 2018, 01:34:31 AM
Hello,

I have some suggestions and a question about chargers.
 
First, my bike is a FXS 2016 with 6.5 kWh (in two 3.3 kWh packs).
Here, in Europe, the usual domestic plugs are 220V / 16A (so they can deliver about 3.5 kW). 
Up to know, I have always charged using  the onboard charger (720W), and most of the time I am limiting the charge to 80% using a timer. Indeed, most of my daily usage is less than 40 kms, and I only charge to 100% when I know that I could need more range.

But in some cases I would need to fast charge in order to increase my range.

For me, the perfect charger would be a mobile one (not fixed to the bike) since I would only use it occasionally. I would bring it in the top case when needed. A weight around 5 kgs or less would be fine.
I would use it on domestic plugs available everywhere (no need to search dedicated plugs which are still uncommon here).
A power around 3.3 kW would be great: it would draw 16A max on the domestic plug.
It could be used together with the onboard charger (using a domestic plug from another circuit) and give a full charge in about 1h35min.
But in case the available domestic plug is weak and does not allow to draw 16A, it would be nice to have a switch on the charger to reduce the power (ideally, a 3-positions switch to choose from 1.1kW, 2.2kW, 3.3kW, that would give a perfect range of solutions if adding the 0.72kW inboard charger).
Another nice feature would be to have a switch to choose between 100% charge and 80% charge.
Note that rather than working in constant power mode, it could work in CC-CV mode, with 3 switchable currents and 2 switchable end voltages.

It seems that there are already devices able to do that, but they need to be triggered in order to offer these functionalities.

I do not see anything that could be impossible, since Zero says in the manual of the bike that we can use simultaneously up to 4 Zero quick 1kW chargers (from the manual: "The scalable quick charging feature allows up to four supplemental accessory chargers (in addition to the existing integrated charger) to be connected to the motorcycle").

That would be great to have a charger of this kind (either made by Zero, or with Zero's agreement). For sure it would interest many users.


That was for the suggestions. Now for the question:

Recent and more sophisticated chargers seem to use complex interaction with the bike (CANbus), and they exchange various information in order to optimize the charge.
On the fast charge connector of my Zero, there are only 4 wires. Obviously, the two big ones are for the power.
But what kind of information passes through the two central wires? Is it only an ON / OFF signal sent by the MBB to the charger, or is it more complex? Wiring diagram here (https://zeromanual.com/images/8/8f/2016_FX_Wiring_1-1.pdf) if it can help.

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on July 05, 2018, 02:30:03 PM
I had a question in my previous message about the signals exchanged between the bike and the external charger through the 2 central pins of the Anderson connector. If somebody has some information, I am still interested  ;)


I also would like to know if somebody has successfully used this Thunderstruck EVCC charge controller (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/evcc-basic.html).
They say in their EVCC-Basic Manual, page 6, that it can store 4 user-configurable settings and can easily switch from one to another (it only needs a contactor with 4 positions, addressing 4 different resistances).
It will be very nice for instance to have 4 settings such as:
     | Full power| Reduced power|
     Full final voltage 116.2V (SOC 100%)| setting 1| setting 2|
     Reduced final voltage 109V (SOC 80%)| setting 3| setting 4|
They say that this device should be able to interact with CAN-enabled TSM2500, 1500, ElCon, and Lear chargers.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: MrDude_1 on July 05, 2018, 07:24:49 PM
If you have the money for the 3.3kw diginow charger, you could replace your onboard with it.
Then you get your 80% charging automatically.
No need to carry external.
always slightly faster charging (a good thing, being discharged is more harmful than charging fast in most cases)
You can turn it up or down as needed via your phone.

I think it would not just hit all your requests, but also exceed them.

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on July 05, 2018, 07:51:38 PM
Thanks.
I have considered the Diginow option, but I have not been able to know if it can be put on an FXS, and, in case the answer is yes, how it should be installed. It seems that it is not a feasible solution when you are in France...
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: MVetter on July 05, 2018, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 05, 2018, 07:51:38 PM
Thanks.
I have considered the Diginow option, but I have not been able to know if it can be put on an FXS, and, in case the answer is yes, how it should be installed. It seems that it is not a feasible solution when you are in France...

It can be, and it can go in the case as you're mentioning. It will come with a Mennekes Type 2 inlet standard for Europe. Send me an email at morgan@diginow.it for more info.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: Neuer_User on July 06, 2018, 12:49:57 PM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 05, 2018, 07:51:38 PM
Thanks.
I have considered the Diginow option, but I have not been able to know if it can be put on an FXS, and, in case the answer is yes, how it should be installed. It seems that it is not a feasible solution when you are in France...
Hi Gerard

I had mentioned the Diginow option to you on email and I myself have ordered an onboard solution for me from them, because I think they have a very good product. Their chargers clearly work for FXS, too.

Having said that, I should mention that I had used a self built (offboard) charger for more than a year now, and I have been pretty happy with it. I do not think that there is rocket science in charging EV batteries, as long as you use proven dedicated chargers. There are many professional chargers and charging controllers out there (one of them being mentioned by you). Diginow, however, has the experience with Zero, a unique integration with the Zero BMS (which is not necessary, but very nice to have), and a great onboard solution (thanks to @doctorbass belly pan).

However, I need also to mention that Diginow is essentially a two persons company. There is Brandon (the technical guy) and Morgan (the sales person). And that poses limitations to their capabilities. So, while Morgan has greatly improved the sales activities of Diginow (which were non-existing before), there is still a lack of delivery capabilities, unfortunately. I have ordered and payed my chargers four weeks ago and so far have been completely unable to get a delivery date (even only an estimated date) from Morgan. The same concerning installation or usage instructions. This is currently pretty frustrating for me and other European customers (not mentioning the European distributor, who has not get any more infos from them either).

So, honestly, if you are interested in an offboard solution, I think both ways forward a possible for you:
Michael
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on July 28, 2018, 11:33:36 PM
I have finally found a solution that matches all my wishes  :)
- fast charger (3.3kW when used at the maximum power)
- that I can use only when I need it, i.e. not fixed to the bike, but transportable in the top case or elsewhere
- that plugs easily to the input current source on one side, and to the bike on the other side
- not too heavy (5.44 kgs with connectors and a 1 meter long Anderson cable), nor bulky
- that I can use alone, or with the inboard charger of the bike
- that can be used on a domestic plug 220V/16A
- that can be used on a weak domestic plug 220V/10A for instance, or less (configurable "on the road")
- that can be used on Mennekes Type 2 plugs (charging stations)
- that can charge to full charge (100%) or less (80% for instance), and configurable "on the road"
- waterproof and insensitive to vibrations

After examining many solutions, I have decided to buy my charger from Otten (Germany), where I got very kind advices and support, and where I could get the charger with all its wiring and connectors adapted to my wishes.
Otten proposed me two solutions:
Both chargers are waterproof, shock-proof (in fact they are the same as Diginow, Elcon, TC Charger HK-J (http://www.tccharger.com/english/Product/T39/57.html),...).
I decided to opt for the second option, since the CAN-operated charger can be controlled and programmed externally, which offers more possibilities.
Some people use Arduino's to control their chargers (you can for instance find information on Lennart's Github (https://github.com/Lennart-O), but since I have not used Arduino's myself before, I chose another option.

I am controlling the CAN-bus charger using the ThunderStruck EVCC-Basic Controller (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/evcc-basic.html). They provide a detailed PDF manual with many useful instructions about the way to wire it and to configure it. At page 6 of their manual, you can see that it can store 4 user-configurable settings and can easily switch from one to another (it only needs a contactor with 4 positions, addressing 4 different resistances). Thunderstruck support was very nice, and I was surprised to be asked, at the time I was buying it: "How would you like that we configure your controller?"  :). I asked for:
- mode 1: 116.2V and 32A (full charge, draws 16A on the 220V plug)
- mode 2: 116.2V and 20A (full charge, draws 10A on the 220V plug)
- mode 3: 109V and 32A (about 80% charge, draws 16A on the 220V plug)
- mode 4: 109V and 20A (about 80% charge, draws 10A on the 220V plug)
And it works as is. Perhaps I will make more fine settings later, but these 4 are already pretty nice.
Note that the controller needs a 12V feeding, that is supplied by the charger itself. The 4 wires between the charger and the controller are: Ground, +12V, CAN-L, CAN-H.

Here are some pictures (https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7). I still have to get a 4 positions commutator (instead of my ugly piece of plexiglass with 4 plugs), and a box to put everything inside.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: Shadow on July 29, 2018, 05:37:49 AM
Looks great! I'll be trying this with the 1800W model (only $306 USD shipped from China).
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on July 29, 2018, 10:38:05 AM
I also have considered to buy the charger in China, but
- communication with the Chinese sellers was difficult
- some sellers do not wire the charger, some give connectors that are not standard
- buying an Anderson connector would have cost 40€ with shipping !
- in some cases, you probably have to pay custom taxes
- the Thunderstruck controller has pre-programmed addresses for the charger (they are used for the CAN-bus protocol). They are not alterable, and you must be sure that the charger has one of these addresses. Otten sent me the address of its charger before selling it to me, and I could check that it was compatible with the Thunderstruck controller
That is why I think that buying the charger from Otten is a better option, at least in my case.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: BamBam on August 01, 2018, 01:33:03 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on July 28, 2018, 11:33:36 PM
After examining many solutions, I have decided to buy my charger from Otten (Germany), where I got very kind advices and support, and where I could get the charger with all its wiring and connectors adapted to my wishes.

Very nice.  Can you please provide a link to Otten's website assuming they have one.  I could not find them using a google search.

PS - I am in the USA.  Do you think that presents a problem.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on August 01, 2018, 05:06:18 AM
It seems that sending this kind of chargers from Europe to US does not make sense. US residents can also buy them from ElCon. They are the same.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on August 02, 2018, 08:21:02 AM
Finally, I decided to build a carrying pouch for the charger inside the top case. I have used expansive foam. This foam has no adherence on polyethylene (litter bag). It makes something perfectly adapted to the top case and to the charger, and fully removable.
Take care to add spacers in order to keep a sufficient thickness of foam everywhere around the charger, such preventing it to knock the top case when riding on bumpy roads. To do that, I have temporarily glued some wood spacers to the charger during the foam expansion.
More pictures on https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: dennis-NL on August 02, 2018, 01:17:42 PM
wow, great alternative I guess for diginow.
Still I will continue with the new bellypan and one 3,3kW.

But for the expansion of two more 3.3kW in the bellypan this would be great, I mean: Germany is like 'on the block' with the Netherlands  ;)

Can't wait to finally go really touring on the Zero like any ICE bike (with 9,9kW charging while having a break)
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: BamBam on August 02, 2018, 07:50:40 PM
I've followed many of the threads on this forum about charging and the Diginow system just seems too complicated and is way too expensive for my taste.  The system that GT13013 is using seems about perfect to me.  He mentioned that Elcon has a charging system that is the same as his system.  Does anyone have more information about that such as correct model #, cost, proper options, etc?  I wasn't able to glean much from Elcon's website.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on August 02, 2018, 08:59:07 PM
The model should be the HK-J-H132-32, 3.3KW UHF CAN bus charger.

You can contact Elcon from their website (I did it and they answer).

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: ashnazg on August 02, 2018, 10:22:11 PM
I've been happy with the Elcon I got from Hollywood Electrics back in 2016.  It tends to charge at around 2200W as seen from the app on my '15 SR.

Granted, I *am* in the queue for the 9.9kW sized Diginows  8)
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on September 26, 2018, 06:21:52 PM
While reading this other thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0), I realized that my programmable charger using a TC 3.3kW charger controlled by a Thunderstruck EVCC-Basic controller could appear complex, while in fact it is not.
In fact, I have left all the "complexity" to others:
- ThunderStruck who sold me the controller already programmed to my wishes (but I can re-program it later if necessary by connecting the controller to my computer via USB),
- Otten who sold me the CAN-enabled TC charger already wired according to my wishes.
I just had to connect both and enjoy !

In order to clarify it, I have added 2 diagrams at the beginning of the pictures gallery:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: BamBam on September 26, 2018, 08:02:13 PM
This is great information GT13013.  And what would you say you ended up paying for your setup?
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on September 26, 2018, 09:27:26 PM
Quote from: BamBam on September 26, 2018, 08:02:13 PM
This is great information GT13013.  And what would you say you ended up paying for your setup?
The price I paid for it is not relevant, since if you are in the US you will not pay the same... And the prices are changing
I paid 699€ for the TC 3.3kW, plus 20€ shipping. I think that now they are a little bit more expensive.
I paid the EVCC 175$ + 32$ shipping + 49.50€ import taxes.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on September 26, 2018, 09:43:37 PM
And I have an important advise to stress on:
If you try to build such a charger, put a fast fuse on the 12V output given by the charger and used to feed the EVCC controller.
That is very important since the TC charger has an internal fuse to protect its 12V output, but this fuse is not accessible and cannot be changed.
I was very happy to do so, when I inadvertently made a short circuit with the 12V output. I had just to replace the 250mA fuse instead of buying a new charger !
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger on domestic 220V plugs
Post by: gt13013 on January 01, 2019, 02:53:12 PM
This charger is made to work on domestic plugs because they are the most common plugs and are available everywhere.
But of course, it can be used with charge stations. You just need the correct adapter.
Since I use at the same time this charger (3300W, i.e. 16A on 220V) and the inboard charger (700W, i.e. 4A on 220V), I use a Type 2 to three 220V plugs adapter that I have build myself. It is shown (construction and use) in the image gallery (https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7). Each of the three plugs is on a different phase according to the wiring given in attachment.
You can find already built adapters, for instance here: https://eauto.si/metron-shop/product/adapter-type-2-3-x-schuko-16-a/
Or get one made for you from here: http://evbitz.uk/
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: Skidz on January 04, 2019, 04:39:29 AM
Very cool stuff, nice setup! Perhaps I should add 3,3kW to the charge stack.... Hmmm....
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on January 04, 2019, 05:27:42 AM
There exist a 6.6 kW charger in one piece. It could be better than two 3.3 kW chargers
https://www.google.com/search?q=HK-J+6600W

But in some cases two 3.3 kW chargers could be more interesting than one 6.6 kW, since with two 3.3 kW chargers you can balance the power on two different phases of the charging station. For instance, you can use one phase for the internal charger, one phase for the first 3.3kW charger, and the third phase for the second 3.3 kW charger.

Btw, I have added 2 pictures and a screenshot (taken today) at the end of the album (https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7).
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on March 28, 2019, 02:20:15 PM
Carrying my external charger in the top case inside a foam shell molded to its shape was not a good idea, since it fluttered a little in the jolts of the road.
I now carry it in a tank bag (XLMOTO model, 20+8 liters (https://www.xlmoto.eu/xlmoto-tank-bag-1)), and it is much better.
More (and bigger) pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/7F7wahd3ufj1oksZ6
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: kasmtk on June 11, 2019, 01:15:13 PM
Hello
Thanks for the article.
I'm in the UK and would be interested in sourcing the Otten supplier you found helpful if you could give me their contact details
I need a cost effective solution to fast charge  My DSR 2016
thanks
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: valnar on June 12, 2019, 06:25:07 AM
I didn't know if I should start a new thread, but I emailed Brandon at Diginow and he informed me that they are going to stop producing chargers for the Zero lineup.  :'(

One of the emails:
Code: [Select]
We discovered why the Calex charger fails, and it would effect our chargers with any further integration. It is too risky for us.

It looks like Zero is only about 2 years behind us in technology. And so they will have reasonable charging for most bikes in a couple years.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on June 12, 2019, 12:07:48 PM
Quote from: valnar on June 12, 2019, 06:25:07 AM
I didn't know if I should start a new thread, but I emailed Brandon at Diginow and he informed me that they are going to stop producing chargers for the Zero lineup.  :'(

This thread is not about Diginow. So please keep it focused on its subject. And start a new thread if you want to speak about something else.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: valnar on June 12, 2019, 05:13:55 PM
I saw it mentioned several times.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on June 18, 2019, 08:57:42 PM
For those of you who are considering the same kind of solution, here is the improvement that I would make if I had to reconsider the problem.
I would fix the charger inside a dedicated top box, with longer connection cables, in such a way that I would leave the charger in the top box while charging (in my present solution I put the charger on the ground).
Givi Monokey boxes (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monokey) for example can carry 10 kgs and would be fine.

And I would swap between the top box containing the charger when I need fast charging, and an empty top box when I do not need fast charging.
I you want to use only one top box, you can also make a system to fix and release easily the charger in the top box.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 19, 2019, 12:44:02 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on June 18, 2019, 08:57:42 PM
For those of you who are considering the same kind of solution, here is the improvement that I would make if I had to reconsider the problem.
I would fix the charger inside a dedicated top box, with longer connection cables, in such a way that I would leave the charger in the top box while charging (in my present solution I put the charger on the ground).
Givi Monokey boxes (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monokey) for example can carry 10 kgs and would be fine.

And I would swap between the top box containing the charger when I need fast charging, and an empty top box when I do not need fast charging.
I you want to use only one top box, you can also make a system to fix and release easily the charger in the top box.

I would absolutely not place any chargers in the top box (at least beyond 10lbs overall load). The top rack will eventually break, because it's just a giant waving lever against the seat bolts and the tiny M6 bolts holding the rack on under the seat.

I am just now extracting my second set of top rack bolts from the aluminum tail frame horns, and this time I didn't even have a charger in the top box. I cannot overstress how unsuitable the top rack is for heavy loads.

If you must, get a Happy Trails SU side rack, and some small side cases to attach to it, and place your chargers in those. The Happy Trails SU side rack is strong enough that you can lift the bike by the rack reasonably.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: DonTom on June 19, 2019, 01:49:08 AM
Quote from: valnar on June 12, 2019, 06:25:07 AM
It looks like Zero is only about 2 years behind us in technology. And so they will have reasonable charging for most bikes in a couple years.
But will that include better charging for 2017 Zero's that already have the powertank and wish to keep it?

(FWIW, I often find my best info. in what some will consider a hijacked thread).

-Don-  Reno, NV
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 19, 2019, 02:19:45 AM
Quote from: BrianTRice on June 19, 2019, 12:44:02 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on June 18, 2019, 08:57:42 PM
For those of you who are considering the same kind of solution, here is the improvement that I would make if I had to reconsider the problem.
I would fix the charger inside a dedicated top box, with longer connection cables, in such a way that I would leave the charger in the top box while charging (in my present solution I put the charger on the ground).
Givi Monokey boxes (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monokey) for example can carry 10 kgs and would be fine.

And I would swap between the top box containing the charger when I need fast charging, and an empty top box when I do not need fast charging.
I you want to use only one top box, you can also make a system to fix and release easily the charger in the top box.

I would absolutely not place any chargers in the top box (at least beyond 10lbs overall load). The top rack will eventually break, because it's just a giant waving lever against the seat bolts and the tiny M6 bolts holding the rack on under the seat.

I am just now extracting my second set of top rack bolts from the aluminum tail frame horns, and this time I didn't even have a charger in the top box. I cannot overstress how unsuitable the top rack is for heavy loads.

If you must, get a Happy Trails SU side rack, and some small side cases to attach to it, and place your chargers in those. The Happy Trails SU side rack is strong enough that you can lift the bike by the rack reasonably.

I will say that it's possible by bracing the top rack against the Happy Trails side rack, that it should wave less and not exercise the leverage it has against the frame. I had a very basic strut in place to account for depression, but nothing to retain it against lift. So it's possible to fix but requires fabrication or other hacking.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on June 19, 2019, 06:01:05 AM
Quote from: BrianTRice on June 19, 2019, 12:44:02 AM
I would absolutely not place any chargers in the top box (at least beyond 10lbs overall load). The top rack will eventually break, because it's just a giant waving lever against the seat bolts and the tiny M6 bolts holding the rack on under the seat.

OK, I was assuming that the back case is able to carry the charger.
My 3.3kW charger weights 5 kgs.
My rack is quite strong (and mine is not using M6 bolts). I have already hung my bike to the ceiling using the rack:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7311.msg62317#msg62317
And I use it almost everyday since 2 years to carry various things.
I do not know if I am lucky or if you are unlucky, but it seems abnormal if your rack cannot support a load of some kilograms.
If there is a problem with some Zero's racks, perhaps we could open another thread to discuss of that.

The weaker part in my bike is the back case.
I am using a Givi Monolock back case (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monolock) given for 3 kgs max load and I have carried my 5 kgs charger inside without any problem.
That is why I suggest a Givi Monokey back case (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monokey) given for 10 kgs max load, and I assume that a back case given for 10 kgs can carry a 5 kgs charger safely.



Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: NoMoreIdeas on June 19, 2019, 08:55:46 AM
I've been doing lots of research on fast charging lately (onboard though). I think I've come up with an ambitious plan to fit an Elcon 3.3kw charger on my FX under the tail just behind the rear shock. I'll have to replace the entire under section of the tail with something fabricated to support the tail as well as encase the Elcon. My initial measuring shows it might work, but it will be tight.

Elcon has a 3.3kw air or water cooled chargers, they look identical to the 3.3kw units diginow is using. I'm guessing their huge value add is a custom canbus controller to communicate with the Zero BMS and charger to provide safe but effective charging, and also pre-crimped connectors to just bolt right in.

You can reportedly order 1.8kw, 3.3kw or 6.6kw units from evcomponents. Here is their 3.3kw unit: http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-3300w-charger.html

Here is a thread by Shadow detailing his experience ordering and using a 1.8kw pre-programmed Elcon: https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0
The advantage of the pre-programming is that it just works out of the box, and has amperage ramp up, and taper down curves built in, as well as a number of safety features. You do not have dynamic control over the charger this way, its a set it and forget it model. Sounds pretty good for an offboard charger. You can also order the charger in a non pre-programmed, canbus controlled option.

For the canbus / charger controller, I found a product made by ThunderstruckEV - https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/evcc-charge-controller.html. This controller has multiple selectable modes that will control how much power the charger consumes, and it will also negotiate the j1772 signal for you as well and works with these elcons. From what I am reading, it doesn't work with the Zero BMS and just controls the charger.

There has also been someone who has done a DIY controller using an aurduino with a canbus sheild:
 Source Code - https://github.com/DanyEarth/TC-Charger-CAN-controller
 Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTvN4Po1A80

If you order these chargers, it looks like you'll need a number of different connections and a crimper for the Anderson / high amperage / voltage connections.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 19, 2019, 09:39:40 AM
Quote from: gt13013 on June 19, 2019, 06:01:05 AM
Quote from: BrianTRice on June 19, 2019, 12:44:02 AM
I would absolutely not place any chargers in the top box (at least beyond 10lbs overall load). The top rack will eventually break, because it's just a giant waving lever against the seat bolts and the tiny M6 bolts holding the rack on under the seat.

OK, I was assuming that the back case is able to carry the charger.
My 3.3kW charger weights 5 kgs.
My rack is quite strong (and mine is not using M6 bolts). I have already hung my bike to the ceiling using the rack:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7311.msg62317#msg62317
And I use it almost everyday since 2 years to carry various things.
I do not know if I am lucky or if you are unlucky, but it seems abnormal if your rack cannot support a load of some kilograms.
If there is a problem with some Zero's racks, perhaps we could open another thread to discuss of that.

The weaker part in my bike is the back case.
I am using a Givi Monolock back case (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monolock) given for 3 kgs max load and I have carried my 5 kgs charger inside without any problem.
That is why I suggest a Givi Monokey back case (https://www.givi.co.uk/givi-products/cases/monokey) given for 10 kgs max load, and I assume that a back case given for 10 kgs can carry a 5 kgs charger safely.

I'm not talking about *static load*. I'm talking about *dynamic load*. Your FX rack is no better than what I'm talking about, and is in fact worse. Your suspension is commendable but in no way speaks to the issue I'm talking about.

The first time my tail rack bolts broke, the tail case was waving around behind me because I hit a rough bump at highway speeds (yes, on a very badly paved highway which is a known issue where I live). I have ridden with enough Zero riders to see that many riders have tail cases that wave around at speed when going over rough pavement.

The second time recently that my tail case broke the front bolts was a severe but stationary drop in 40mph gust winds on my steep roadside area in front of my house. I lost footing at a bad angle and the tail case hit the ground in a way that helped shear the heads off the bolts.

I have a background studying mechanical engineering, despite not professionally applying it except as a nuclear technician for several years.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 19, 2019, 09:42:06 AM
Honestly, the best place to mount chargers is forward of your legs, on each side of the amusingly narrow frames that Zero produces, supported by a bracket that straddles the frame. There is nowhere around the tail that doesn't impact handling or suspension travel in a problematic or dangerous way.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: togo on August 27, 2019, 03:12:19 AM
> I would absolutely not place any chargers in the top box (at least beyond 10lbs overall load)...

I'm running two or three 3.3kw units on the side of my happy-trail.com rack, with bent metal to provide aero benefit when moving forward and chimney effect when charging.

No problems so far.

Yes, the zero top-rack is not nearly as sturdy.

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on January 25, 2021, 09:52:53 PM
Quote from: gt13013 on March 28, 2019, 02:20:15 PM
Carrying my external charger in the top case inside a foam shell molded to its shape was not a good idea, since it fluttered a little in the jolts of the road.
I now carry it in a tank bag (XLMOTO model, 20+8 liters (https://www.xlmoto.eu/xlmoto-tank-bag-1)), and it is much better.
More (and bigger) pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/7F7wahd3ufj1oksZ6

Hello gt13013,

how did the top case hold up so far carrying the Otten charger considering the weight of the charger?
BTW. thanks for your posts, it is an inspiration :)

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: Kappi on January 26, 2021, 12:38:45 AM
Hi Sharagan,

I carry the same setup with a 3.3 kw charger in the standard Zero top case. Thus, I can leave the whole thing at home when I don't want to ride far.

However, I opted for a non-foam solution for heat conductivity reasons.
The charger is mounted on long bolts that come through holes drilled in the bottom of the top case. I also placed a spacer below the charger so that there is a gap below it for air circulation. On the mounting bolts I placed alulminum tubes as spacers, cut to length and placed large washers below the tubes. The bolts are fittet with large diameter washers as well so that the heads have enough surface are to not compromise or bend the bottom of the top case. Combined with the spacers placed below the charger to allow air flow and give a safety height for potential water ingress (not happended so far), the whole thing is rock solid. The tubular spacers on the bolts ensure that the pressure created by bolting the charger down is held by the bolts themselves and does not "pull up" the bottom of the case. (This descripbtion probaply sounds more complicatet than the build actually is).

Also in the box are the necessary cables (type 2 -->cee red, cee red 3-phase splitter to 3x type 1 shuko, as well as the standard zero cable. I haven't found a single charging station that did not accept that combination. In sum with the internal charger, this provides roughly 4,6 kw of charging.
So far, no issues whatsoever.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: DonTom on January 26, 2021, 12:47:54 AM
Quote from: sharagan on January 25, 2021, 09:52:53 PM
how did the top case hold up so far carrying the Otten charger considering the weight of the charger?
BTW. thanks for your posts, it is an inspiration :)
In my SR, I carry a 3.3 KW charger in each Zero  side bag. Each  side bag has a higher carrying capacity that the Zero Travel Trunk.  I can charge up to around 8 KW, which exceeds the capacity of most J1772 stations.  See the thread here (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30) for more info.


-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on January 26, 2021, 04:02:36 AM
Thanks guys for the ideas and experiences.
Now I realize that I made a mistake when formulating my question - as I am indecisive about the placement of the charger, the top case seems to be the logical and convenient placement. But I actually wanted to ask gt13013 about the tank bag as that has also some advantages (weight more centralized, cheaper to get) but I have some concerns with the forward strap as it seems to be tied down on the frame, where a lot of wires on both sides are present (frame behind the steering stem, in fromt of the charger). Hopefully the description is ok to understand.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: Langelot on January 26, 2021, 06:41:31 PM
Hello,
As you can see on the photo (two days ago in french Alps) I use the same bag than GT13013 (for the same reason) and no problem with the forward strap and the cables. I'll do a better photo of this part if you are interested.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on January 26, 2021, 08:02:27 PM
Hello Langelot,

thanks for the photo, you have the same bike as me :) ...could you please take a photo of the location, where the front straps are tied down.
I am considering to buy the Otten charger and also the tank bag. Would be great if I could use the public chargers this way.
How do you connect to the type 2 charger, do you use a type 2 to schuco converter?
Do you have the can bus or the other type of charger?

Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: Richard230 on January 26, 2021, 08:38:27 PM
The French Alps are looking kind of chilly this time of the year. I bet your battery pack was crying for mercy while riding up there.   ;)
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: Langelot on January 26, 2021, 10:33:44 PM
The Otten charger I have bought has a type 1 plug, a shuco. I have added a cable because the Otten cable was too short for me, and changed the shucos for  french type 1 plugs. I could use a shuco/type 2 converter, but I don't really need it, so I use only the type 1 at home and with the public chargers. GT13013 (who friendly advised me for this charger) use this converter. I charge at 3.3 kW, and I can add the internal charger too to obtain nearly 4 kW. It charges then around 1% per minut.
No canbus, it is the simple charger.

I did two walks in the Alps this week, 110 km and 113 km, starting at an altitude of 400m and arriving at 1750m (Chamrousse) and 1370 (Alpe du Grand Serre). On arrival I had around 9% battery left. I'm so satisfied with my FXS, great motorcycle !
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on January 26, 2021, 10:54:27 PM
Looks great!

Thanks for the photos :)

FXS and the Alps has to be the best combination I can imagine :D
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on January 31, 2021, 06:01:35 AM
Hello. Sorry, I was too busy these days and I did not read my messages.

I abandoned the idea of ??carrying the charger in a foam cocoon inside the topcase. Probably if I had time to reconsider the problem I would attach it more securely to the topcase.

Anyway, I am now carrying it in a tank bag and it is fine.
I just have taken 4 pictures of the tank bag mounting. I added them to my previous set of pictures :
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RdcLtzjxqsYhoVyz7
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on January 31, 2021, 07:18:09 AM
Thank you for the pictures! :)

The tank bag came yesterday and I am just positioning it, at first the plastic fasteners on the back were at the edge of the seat.
They were directly under my leg, but after a little bit of playing around I found a spot, which is ok for me.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on January 31, 2021, 06:27:59 PM
Quote from: Langelot on January 26, 2021, 10:33:44 PM
I did two walks in the Alps this week, 110 km and 113 km, starting at an altitude of 400m and arriving at 1750m (Chamrousse) and 1370 (Alpe du Grand Serre). On arrival I had around 9% battery left. I'm so satisfied with my FXS, great motorcycle !
I also did some travel in the Alps. In order to plan with good precision my consumption, I have made a spreadsheet that enables me to predict my SOC with good precision. I print it and put it under the plastic screen of the tank bag (with the location of the charging possibilities...). It gives me some indication. For instance, I know that at a given point, I predicted to get a given SOC. If I make a little better, I can go faster for the rest of the trip. If I make a little worse, I must slow down to respect my predictions. It is very helpful. I made a post in French here (http://www.vehiculeselectriques.fr/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=17737). If people are interested, I can make an English translation. I attach my French spreadsheet. You can also get some examples specific to my trips here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/zoqscw50mjz1874/planification_trajets.xls?dl=0).
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: umrath on February 28, 2022, 05:45:40 PM
Sorry for digging up such an old topic, but my question is very much related:

1. Did anyone find a way to fix one or two chargers to the bike or replace the onboard charger? Of is everyone strapping it to the tank area?
2. How fast can you actually charge an FX with a 7,2 kWh battery? Is it realistisch to use a 2 x 3,3 kW (maybe + onboard charger) setup?
3. Anyone running a Typ2-charging solution without Schuko-Adapter or something alike?

I would consider a 2022 FX if I would manage to get 6,6+ kW charging.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on March 01, 2022, 01:26:50 AM
I assume you will not be able to charge it with 2x3,3kw. One of them has a 32A output and the battery has 57Ah, therefore the 64A would exceed the 1C rating and the result would be probably a hard disconnect of the contactor and an entry in the error log and there goes the warranty. This is all just my untested speculation given the available information.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TEV on March 01, 2022, 04:01:37 AM
Quote from: sharagan on March 01, 2022, 01:26:50 AM
I assume you will not be able to charge it with 2x3,3kw. One of them has a 32A output and the battery has 57Ah, therefore the 64A would exceed the 1C rating and the result would be probably a hard disconnect of the contactor and an entry in the error log

That's correct, and that's why the OEM Charge Tank is only 6KW (50A).
 
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: umrath on March 01, 2022, 02:11:07 PM
There is a charge tank for the FX?
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 02:54:48 PM
He means for the 7.2 S/DS. There's a warning in the manual about not using the on board charger when using the charge tank, which to me implies that it would actually work but voids the warranty.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TEV on March 01, 2022, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 02:54:48 PM
He means for the 7.2 S/DS.

Yes.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TEV on March 01, 2022, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 02:54:48 PM
.......... which to me implies that it would actually work but voids the warranty.

It shouldn't. Why something that can be done easily by an operator error should void the warranty?
The BMS would disconnect the battery from the chargers and no harm will be done.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
You're right, I looked it up in the manual again and it says an error code will be displayed and the bike won't charge at the expected rate (don't know if that means it won't charge at all, or if it will just default to either the OBC or charge tank). I wouldn't say it's easily done though, you won't find many level 2 chargers with a mains socket right next to them. Also I know there are people that charge at a rate greater than 1C, makes me wonder how they manage that if the BMS is supposed to prevent it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: TEV on March 01, 2022, 07:57:44 PM
Quote from: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
...... I know there are people that charge at a rate greater than 1C, makes me wonder how they manage that if the BMS is supposed to prevent it.

It can be done, but the bike will log that, and it definitely voids the warranty.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: MVetter on March 03, 2022, 03:02:02 AM
Quote from: TheRan on March 01, 2022, 06:38:55 PM
Also I know there are people that charge at a rate greater than 1C, makes me wonder how they manage that if the BMS is supposed to prevent it.

Manual override on the contactor.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on March 08, 2022, 09:28:59 PM
what about the following scenario?

3.3 kw charger + 1.8 kw charger over Y cable to aux port and the 700w internal charger = 5.8kw (54A)

This should be below the 1C limit as the 7.2kwh battery has 57Ah on the FX/FXS/FXE and for the 7.2Kwh S models a 6Kw charge tank is ok per the manual.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: NoMoreIdeas on March 08, 2022, 09:46:10 PM
Quote from: sharagan on March 08, 2022, 09:28:59 PM
what about the following scenario?

3.3 kw charger + 1.8 kw charger over Y cable to aux port and the 700w internal charger = 5.8kw (54A)

This should be below the 1C limit as the 7.2kwh battery has 57Ah on the FX/FXS/FXE and for the 7.2Kwh S models a 6Kw charge tank is ok per the manual.

That will work. Also keep in mind if you get CAN controlled chargers, you can have them output exactly what you want. For example you can have 2 3.3kw chargers charge at 25 amps each. IRRC there is a 50a fuse on the aux port, so you'll want to be a little lower than 50a.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: gt13013 on March 09, 2022, 03:18:50 AM
And what about two 0-125V 0-30A power supply, similar to these ones, in parallel on an Y cable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZagi5SMjuY
Should be used with care, not going higher than 116 V to prevent the battery.
And should be used in a waterproof box.
Other than that, lowering the voltage should permit to end the charge at whatever desired SOC.
And lowering the delivered amperage should permit to adjust the power, in case you don't need a super fast charge, or if you have only weak plugs at your disposal.
Would charge on a CC-CV basis.
And by this way, you replace a complex CANbus control by a simple manual adjustment  :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on March 09, 2022, 05:21:52 PM
This looks like a really good and flexible solution mainly for home use and I admire doctorbass for his ingenuity:)

Using this on the go could be tricky so definitely a waterproof case would be necessary.
Title: Re: Suggestions for an off board fast charger
Post by: sharagan on March 10, 2022, 05:15:18 PM
I read good experiences with EVComponents when ordering a preprogrammed TC charger here on the forum.
What about the seller Deligreencs EV Parts Store on Aliexpress?
They have the possibility to preprogram the charger as well (same data is requested from the customer as with EVComponents)and there is a benefit of an easier customs process as they have a warehouse in the EU.
But I would like to know if there might be a risk with the unit not being programed correctly?