Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Topics - MostlyBonkers

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Who would like Vectrix style progressive regen?

« on: May 04, 2020, 12:00:18 PM »

Who would like to see Zero implement a Vectrix style regen on the throttle?

Vectrix made scooters which were ahead of their time. One really nice feature was the ability to twist the throttle forward and apply progressive regen. If the scooter was stopped, it would go in reverse. It's such an intuitive and easy way to control regen that I'd love to see it implemented on more motorcycles.

Yesterday I managed to find the patent that Vectrix holds for their regen system and discovered that it expires towards the end of 2022. That would give Zero plenty of time to develop the same kind of control for their bikes, I would hope. I don't know if patents can be renewed, for whatever reason, but if so, perhaps Zero could even pay a small license fee in order to implement this design?

I dropped an email to Dale Robinson, our UK manager yesterday and he kindly said he'd forward it to Abe Askenazi, Zero's Chief Engineer. That should ensue it gets some attention at Zero HQ. However, in the meantime, I was curious to see how many folks would like to see this feature on their bikes? It might help Zero ascertain whether or not to implement it too. They have a good track record of implementing features that customers have been keen on.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Why is the price tag on Zero bikes still so high?

« on: April 20, 2020, 02:24:11 PM »

I've also posted this on the Facebook group. I'm posting here too as I know some of you don't use FB. I can't say I blame you either! :-)

I can understand why the 2012-15 models were expensive; battery costs and the development costs of the early bikes. However, during the last five years the cost of batteries has plummeted. So why aren't we seeing this reflected in the cost of the bikes? I don't see any reason why a new Zero S or DS should cost more than a Honda NC750 S or X. Other than Honda having greater economies of scale, of course. Regardless, Zero must have seen their costs reduce over the last five years.

My own theory is that Zero don't have the ability to scale up production at the moment. If they drop the price, demand would shoot up to levels that they can't supply. At the current price point they can make enough profit by manufacturing a coupe of thousand bikes a year without having to invest in a larger factory. The sad thing is that I think there is a lot of latent demand out there just waiting for prices to drop. I'm certain a lot of bikers would consider a Zero as a second bike and keep a tourer for longer trips. Not to mention all the commuters who would benefit greatly from having a Zero ease the burden of their daily grind.

Any thoughts?

Pics and Vids / How cold weather affects range.

« on: April 19, 2020, 02:02:53 AM »

I came across this video earlier:

Worth subscribing, I think. Euan is very knowledgeable around the subject of EVs and batteries.

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / ZF14.4 - True Range with 2014DS

« on: March 24, 2020, 03:36:30 AM »

Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P). It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus. I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!

With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac. I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds. So that's what I did. I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power. I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.

The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock. I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount. The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike. I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat. Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles.

I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario. The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway. I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied. It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads. My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.

I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range. Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag. After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range? We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.

I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers. Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking. An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs. I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those. Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.

Time is also a consideration. If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management. That would also affect any charging that was attempted.

A lot of this is academic though. Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads. They are very well engineered to do that. After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.

General Discussion / A Hybrid Motorcycle?

« on: July 12, 2019, 11:12:42 PM »

Given that the energy density of batteries is unlikely to improve significantly within the next few years, I can't help thinking that a hybrid powertrain might just be the catalyst that could help the transition to pure electric motorcycles. I didn't think I'd ever say this as I've always felt that hybrids are over-engineered. However, just like they have with cars, a hybrid powertrain could do a nice job of filling the gap until the technology catches up with fossil fueled capabilities. It needs to exceed in all areas, including cost, before mass adoption happens.

Some applications have already reached that point, although for motorcycles it's really just the scooter and commuter market. The latter still needs the rider to invest in a new bike and start reaping the rewards after a four year break even on cost.

I'm thinking of the day trip and touring market. A 5kWh battery could be coupled to a 100cc petrol generator. The generator could kick in over 50mph when wind noise will drown out the engine noise and ensure the bike remains at zero emissions as much as possible in densely populated areas. Could a small, air cooled petrol powered generator be packaged within the space, cost and weight requirements of the extra 6-7kWh of battery we see in a current ZF14.4 power pack? I like to think so.

I'd love to see the current crop of touring bikes be given a hybrid powertrain. I think the riders would enjoy the torque and refinement of having an electric motor as the means of propulsion. Better fuel economy and better range with a smaller fuel tank would mean a lot to high mileage riders too.

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / A Fundraiser for Brian

« on: July 12, 2019, 04:17:55 AM »

I'm posting this here as I know many of you don't use Facebook but know Brian well from this forum. The fundraising page has only been live for a little over two hours at the time of posting and yet we've raised over $2,000!

I hope this makes a real difference for Brian, who has given us his time and expertise so generously over the years.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/brian-t-rice

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Charging Cables for the SRF - Not included?!?

« on: June 01, 2019, 03:59:50 AM »

I've been meaning to post this for a while...

The current situation is that if you buy an SRF you don't get any charging cables with it. At all... In order to charge from a domestic socket, we are expected to pay an extra Â£400 or so for the cable that Zero offers. It's a good cable, but I'm damned if I'm going to pay extra for it!

If we want to charge from a 7kW post we need to buy yet another cable that costs around Â£100. This is an absolutely ridiculous state of affairs. We're expected to pay Â£16,500 or Â£18,500 for a standard or premium version here in the UK. That is a very serious amount of coin. That's after the Â£1,500 subsidy too! To then not supply the cables required to charge the bike is taking the piss, big style!

I leased a Kia Soul EV and both those cables came with the car. It was a Â£25,000 car after subsidy.

What also concerns me is that people will try and find cheaper alternatives to Zero's wall socket to Type 2 adaptor, or EVSE as they are often referred to. The important thing that Zero's EVSE does is to provide the ability to adjust the current that will be drawn from the wall socket. There are three settings that result in a charge rate of 1.3, 1.7 and something like about 2.2kW from a 240v domestic outlet. I know from my experience that 1.3kW is enough to overheat the plug in the socket sufficiently that it starts to melt the plastic after a few hours. 1.7kW might work with better quality sockets and the highest setting might be ok for shorter charge times with the best hospital grade plugs and sockets. However, alternative cables probably won't provide that level of control and the on-board charger might just try and pull the full 3kW from a domestic socket. That will end badly.

Those charging cables really need to be included with the bike, just like they are included with all other electric vehicles. You wouldn't but a toaster without a power cable. I can't believe Zero made the decision not to supply these cables with the bike and it needs to be reversed. Please comment below and petition to get this decision reversed. I don't think it has come up much yet because customers haven't received their bikes yet. They're in for a nasty shock when they discover they can't use their brand new, very expensive bike without having to fork out another Â£5-600 on cables first. It wouldn't surprise me if some dealers didn't even have them in stock and the customer then has to wait a couple of weeks for them to come in. Frustration and a great source of ill will right from the very start of the ownership experience. Not a good first impression from a customer's point of view.

Just because early adopters are willing to push the boat out and pay a premium for new technology, it doesn't mean we're all rich and don't mind being stiffed like this. It's outrageous!

Please give your thoughts below and let's hope Zero are listening.

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Decided to get the SR/F

« on: May 29, 2019, 07:36:06 AM »

Just to bring some balance to The Force, I have decided to take the plunge and buy an SR/F. It all started when the on-board charger on my 2014DS failed ten days ago...

So the DS and CB1000R are going to make way for a shiny new SRF. The second-hand market is a bit thin on the ground at the moment and I didn't really want to invest in an SR now that the SRF is almost with us.

Stay tuned for an almost inevitable essay or two from yours truly when I get my mitts on one.

If anyone would like to buy my 2014DS, let me know. Just bear in mind that I'm based in the South East of England. It should be ready for sale in a couple of weeks.

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Time Trial: 2014 Zero DS vs. 2018 Honda CB1000R

« on: March 07, 2019, 12:34:17 AM »

Reading time: Approximately 5 minutes.

Part 1 of 2 - see comments or replies for the rest.

I took my CB1000R out for a spin recently on a regular route I take around some of the country roads here in Hertfordshire, England. A mixture of windy roads with a few opportunities to go fast, albeit briefly. No dual carriageways or motorways and a lot of villages and speed limits, as you might imagine. I happened to notice the time I set off and thought it would be handy to know how long the route takes as I'd recently added a bit extra on. 1 hour 22 minutes on the Honda. Not bad at all considering it's approximately 50 miles and the nature of the roads. It got me wondering how much longer it would take on my Zero; the Honda has more maximum torque, gears to make the most of it and almost three times as much peak power. The Herts TT was on!

The following morning I set off on the Zero with a full charge. I was keen to ride in a spirited fashion, as I had done on the Honda the evening before. I knew there would be no contest in performance terms and I also wanted to stay within reasonable safety margins. I like to ride hard when the road allows it, but I also do my best to slow down at corners sufficiently so that I can stop in the distance I can see. The roads are often narrow and there are cyclists, horses and tractors. Oncoming cars often drive too fast so that can get hairy too. I also have no wish to upset people by blasting through villages with no care about the speed limit either. I've seen a guy do 70mph through a town centre before and it just gives us bikers a bad name. I'm no slouch, but no hooligan either. On the Zero I rode fast enough for the motor to go into thermal management and have the power noticeably restricted on a couple of occasions.

It was a fun ride and I also got the feeling that it was a clearer run in terms of the traffic I met. How much slower? 6 minutes... faster! It only took me 1hr 16 minutes on my Zero! Uh? There is never THAT much traffic on the back roads and surely the Honda's extra performance would more than make up for it?

There was nothing for it, there had to be a rematch. I literally jumped off the Zero and onto the Honda to do the route again. Same weather (although it was dry the previous night too) and no chance of extra traffic from people going home at the end of the day. I had enjoyed a spirited ride on the Zero and was determined to make the most of the Honda's extra power on this run. It was fun, but certainly not how I ride most of the time.

The final time was 1 hour 12 minutes. A whole four minutes faster than the Zero... In order to achieve that I'd had to ride a bike with much more power, more grip from the large and sticky road tyres versus the skinny dual sport tyres on my DS, far superior suspension, better frame geometry for cornering and much better brakes. Don't forget that the 2014 Zeros still had the Fast Ace suspension and the brakes have improved a lot since then too. To put it in perspective, by the time I'd parked my Honda and was ready to switch it off, another two minutes had ticked by since I arrived home. I'd saved about as much time as it takes to park, put the bike's cover on and remove my helmet and gloves, whilst risking a prison sentence on some of the faster sections of the route...

"Only double the national speed limit Officer? I could have gone faster if the roads weren't so bumpy!"

"Get in the back of the van!"

General Discussion / EV Driving - Illustrating the Difference.

« on: December 12, 2018, 11:18:22 PM »

Part 1 of 2

I think it's safe to say that we're all very familiar with people describing driving an EV as smooth, refined, quiet, tranquil and so on. The benefits of instant torque are mentioned a lot, but whilst so many petrol heads are comfortable with what torque is, I can't help thinking that it is an experience that's hard to convey.

Riding to work on my piston powered motorcycle the other day, I got some inspiration as I approached a bridge that forms part of an s-bend. I was in third gear and chose to leave it there, which wasn't a problem. I had to slow down for the corners and knew the bike would be comfortable in that gear. However, it did occur to me that second gear would be more appropriate in terms of engine braking, control and acceleration out of the final bend. I would certainly have dropped to second gear if I had been riding in a more spirited fashion but I was happy just pottering along and just couldn't be bothered with the extra gear changes. It got me thinking about how often we must make that choice when we're riding or driving piston vehicles with manual gearboxes. All the time, probably, despite the fact that changing gear is something that quickly becomes natural and requires very little effort. So why is this worthy of any thought at all? What's the bid deal? It's just a normal, every day part of driving. Until you drive an EV.

I got to thinking that we're constantly making compromises when we drive with a gearbox. In order to have a bit of fun driving with pistons we have to work the gearbox and clutch. Even with dual clutch gearboxes, there is still the workload associated with thinking about the correct gear and changing at the right moment so as not to over-rev the engine or create a jerky ride. If you leave the box in automatic, then it'll tend to keep in the highest gear possible and will have to drop a couple of gears if you want to accelerate suddenly. Sport mode might keep the revs up it doesn't know what's coming and can't always predict the right gear to be in. Although an automatic is easier to drive 99% of the time, these little mis-steps can be frustrating at times. A CVT transmission will also take some time to respond to the need for more torque and acceleration, not least because the piston engine also has to get up to speed.

Changing gears can be engaging and fun but what I think we need is for people to make that leap of intuition and realise that gearboxes are nothing more than a solution to an inherent weakness of combustion engines. It's hard to explain how liberating it is to be able to press an accelerator or twist a throttle and instantly get exactly the right amount of acceleration you want. Persuading someone to go and take a test drive in an EV can be difficult.

To get the absolute best performance from my motorcycle on that s-bend would actually require me to drop it down to 1st gear. However, it also happens to be the most challenging gear to control the bike in. That means it very seldom gets used for more than low speed maneuvering. Who actually enjoys riding in 1st gear for any length of time? It's certainly the most responsive gear and my bike will do 70mph before it hits the red with the revs. It just doesn't feel right to have the engine revving like crazy when 2nd or 3rd gear will do the job nicely. Each gear alters the responsiveness and control significantly. The challenge of it can be fun but I don't miss having gears when driving an EV or riding my Zero motorcycle. In fact, the first thing I notice when jumping back on a piston bike is how quickly it runs out of revs. I get spoilt by my Zero being able to accelerate away from the lights up to whatever speed is appropriate without having to change any gears. Gears seem like a nuisance... I can get all the acceleration I need, instantly, at any speed and it's effortless. That is just brilliant, in my book!

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / UK Fully Charged Show

« on: June 07, 2018, 01:26:09 PM »

http://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/fully-charged-live-event/

Anyone going? It's this weekend.

General Discussion / EV Battery Webinar

« on: May 30, 2018, 08:31:43 PM »

Came across this on Twitter:

https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/4024421855931261442

I'll be giving a webinar called "Under the bonnet - EV battery misconceptions" for @EST_Scotland on Tuesday 19th June at 1pm. Register here to find out more about the history, inner workings and future of EV batteries, plus a good dose of myth busting:

register.gotowebinar.com/register/40244â€¦

Have you ever wondered how electric car batteries are made? Join our free webinar on Tues 19 June @1pm to find out. Our speaker, Dr Euan McTurk will talk about the history, inner workings and future of EV batteries. Register here, attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/40244â€¦

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Who are loud pipes for?

« on: May 19, 2018, 02:45:53 PM »

I'm guilty of running loud pipes in the past. I had an Aprilia Shiver 750 with Akrapovic cans. It sounded lovely. I even took the baffles out, although that was short lived because the noise gave me a headache.

Then there was the Fazer 1000. The baffle stayed out on that bike, although it wasn't as loud as the Shiver.

Skipping another couple of bikes, I landed on my Zero, which I've been riding almost every day for well over two years now. I love the silence at traffic lights. Most cars are very quiet on idle these days, or just switch off. So my enemy has become other motorcycles. Even with stock pipes, they're often louder than their four wheeled counterparts.

Anyhow, I get plenty of time to think during my two hours of commuting each day. Yesterday I had a leap of intuition, although it must be taken in jest:

Who benefits from loud pipes? What purpose do they serve? They don't save lives, imho. If anything they endanger them. I won't go into that here, but can later if anyone wishes. They sound good, but that's really only going to please the rider. Everyone else just sees them as noise. An unpleasant distraction, an annoyance. I think that's true for 99% of the people within earshot. Especially those sat at home trying to enjoy some peace and quiet. Who are the other 1%? Fellow bikers? No. I like the sound of an engine, but only if I'm running it. That leaves one last segment of society that might think loud pipes on a motorcycle (or car) sound cool: Little boys.

That's all fine and good, until you go back to the main purpose they seem to serve. Attracting the attention of boys. It leads me to the logical conclusion that loud pipes are for paedos!

Perhaps Zero can use that as a marketing slogan... ;-)

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Your opinions please: My next bike

« on: April 20, 2018, 01:12:47 AM »

I've had my 2014DSP for well over two years now. It's still under warranty until Jan 2019, due to the amount of time, cost, effort and inconvenience I had to suffer when the bearings in the rear wheel failed.

Despite a few issues I've had with the bike, for the most part it has been fun and very cheap to run. Hmmm, that would be a good tagline for Zero's Marketing department to use...

To put it another way, I've saved around Â£8,000 on train fares since I bought it, so it doesn't owe me anything. I paid Â£6,500 for it and aside for a couple of sets of tyres and some brake pads, it has cost me very little to run for 20,000 miles.

Long time members here will recall how enthusiastic I was to own a Zero. It took me almost three years to achieve, and I haven't looked back since. I've thoroughly enjoyed commuting into London on my Zero. It has been perfect for the job. I've told countless fellow commuters that very same message whenever the opportunity arises. I've also enjoyed riding it for fun. Despite the regular commute, I'm still eager to take my bike for a spin around the Chilterns whenever the opportunity arises. It may have cheap Chinese suspension, but the low centre of gravity makes handling a dream. It's fair to say that I've grown very attached to my Zero.

Can you sense a "but" coming? There is one and it's also why I wanted to reach out to all the regulars, newbies and everyone inbetween for your opinions. I appreciate that within the context of an electric motorcycle forum those opinions may be a little biased. However, I want that bias because it was by becoming a member of this community that I was able to make my dream a reality.

My problem is that I just can't make my mind up. Do I keep my DS? It's certainly the sensible thing to do. Even if it suffers an expensive failure outside of the warranty period, it will be cheaper to fix than buying a brand new bike.

On the other hand, a 2018SR with a charge tank is a compelling prospect. I love bikes with lots of acceleration and I would love to go further afield on an electric bike. It's just the cost of that option that makes me wince.

Another option I'm considering is getting a new or used 2017 Yamaha MT10. The 2018 models are out now so I can get a deal on one. I managed to test ride one last Saturday and have to say it was magnificent. With this option, I'd keep my Zero for my commute. Well, ideally. My wife really isn't keen for me to buy a bike in any shape or form. I might be able to convince her if I trade in my Zero with Streetbike, who have already offered me a very generous figure for it. They're confident they can give it a wash, sell it quickly and make a profit on it. The only problem is I'd be left with one bike that runs on petrol for my commute. I'm not terribly keen on abandoning electric motorcycling either. I do want a bike that's more versatile though.

A final option that I can think of is to pick up a cheap used bike for the longer trips. I really enjoyed riding a Fazer 1000 for a year; commuting and everything. Maybe I should just another one of those?

Should I just do nothing and carry on as I've been with my Zero? That's definitely the option that my wife likes. The trouble is that I do miss being able to do a decent day trip once in a while. The only Zero that comes close to doing that is a new one with the charge tank. I've decided to rule out an Energica Eva due to their cost, complexity, lack of dealerships and extremely poor range. I'm not convinced the handling will be good on such a heavy bike either. I owned a VFR 1200 for a short time and it couldn't hide its sheer weight in corners. A BMW GS would be better in that respect.

Any thoughts please? I'm in a quandary!

Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Zero Customer Service Log

« on: March 23, 2018, 11:37:22 AM »

Zero's customer service has been a sore point for just about every owner that has experienced a problem with their bike. For some, poor customer experience has been so bad they've decided to vote with their feet and say goodbye. Often at significant financial loss.

I have been given the runaround by Zero and have had to endure multiple episodes myself, despite my dealers' best efforts. Unfortunately my rear shock failed after only 18,000 miles recently and I am having to run the gauntlet again. This time I've decided to log my experience here, in the hope it makes a difference.

Tuesday 13th March: Called dealer

Thursday: Called dealer, warranty claim was logged in the system yesterday. I agreed to wait until the end of the week before chasing Zero directly.

Friday: Called dealer. No news.

[Bit of a gap... I am trying to hold down a full time job and raise a family too.]

Tuesday 20th March: Called dealer who gave me a contact at Zero's European headquarters for warranty claims. I sent Jill an email.

Wednesday: I received a reply from Jill saying she would check the status with the dealer as soon as possible. I replied explaining that my dealer was waiting for her to authorise the warranty claim. I got a reply that Kevin, who looks after servicing at the dealership was not in the office that day.

Fair enough...

Thursday: Spoke to Kevin who said Dale (Zero's rep in the UK), had called. It hadn't been a productive call because Dale hadn't checked the system properly so there was some confusion about the warranty claim. I emailed Jill to explain that situation and ask for any news. No reply as yet.

So it is now ten days since I reported the issue and nothing has happened. In the meantime I'm riding a motorcycle with a failed shock absorber, which is hardly ideal.

This is how it should have played out so far:

Tuesday: Report issue

Wednesday (I'm being generous): Dealer calls me to arrange a time to drop my bike off and pick up a courtesy bike.

Thursday: Drop bike off on my way to work and pick up the courtesy bike.

Saturday: Pick my bike up with a new shock absorber fitted under warranty with an apology for the inconvenience.

That would have been a satisfactory outcome. Let's see how this story unfolds. I'm using it as an exercise to see if Zero's customer service has improved since this time last year when I had all the trouble with the bearings. So far, not so good. I may take a closer look at Energica for my next bike although with them being an Italian make, I'm not filled with confidence. Yamaha perhaps? Honda maybe? I rather fancy a Triumph.