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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JasonS on January 23, 2015, 11:10:21 AM
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Hi,
I have been lurking, here, and at the Zero Motorcycles website for a couple years now, but I recently pulled the trigger on a 2015 SR (the ABS, and small boost in range motivated me).
Living in Houston, I didn't have a local dealer to order from, so after speaking with AF1 Racing in Austin, and a couple other dealers (one in San Antonio and one in Dallas) I decided to move forward with AF1 - the large number of references I've seen here to that dealership didn't hurt.
I picked it up last Saturday, and it has been a blast! I'd ridden a 2012 or 2013 DS (I forget which model year it was, but it was at the dealer in SE Houston that decided it didn't want to be a Zero dealer anymore), and a 2014 Zero S. I'd never ridden the SR before. Holy Crap that thing hauls! And the others didn't exactly seem slow...
I'll have to take it back to Austin for my 600 mile check-up, but I'm currently sitting at about 250 miles and I'm seeing some issue with the 12v system that has me concerned I may be back in Austin before I hit 600 miles. When I first turn the bike on (this has worsened every day since I bought it), the 12v doo-dads don't do their jobs.
Days 1-2(or 3) : turn key on, headlight kinda flickers, ABS light flickers... "On" cycles get progressively stronger and longer until it stabilizes in the On mode.
Next day or so : turn key on, at first nothing happens, but then starts flickering. Eventually turns on.
Today: Turn key on, no 12v components turn on... for extended period of time. Minutes. No head light, no back light on the instruments, no turn signals, no brake light. Traction system is fine. I can ride the bike, but I'll be doing it with no lights, (and presumably no ABS). Eventually I notice the filament of the headlight glowing red. It gradually progresses to the stage that I'm confident it will "wake up", so I start riding. Within a minute or two, it's fully awake, ABS self-checks, and all is normal. This happened in the morning, and again when coming home from work. It was coolest today of the last several days. Maybe related.
I'm suspecting something has gone afoul with the DC-DC converter, but haven't gotten to it (literally - I haven't been able to get my fingers on it) to check the connectors for tightness (about all I care to do, considering it's under warranty). I did pull the seat off tonight and dig around a bit, but it's, well, kind of a rat's nest in there, as others have pointed out :) I'm not exactly sure where it is, though obviously I could find it by tracing wires from the fuse box.
What strikes me oddest of all, is that I've searched, a LOT, here and on Google, and I haven't found squat about an issue like this. Has anyone heard of this? Any "home remedy" suggestions?
Oh, and I have some video of the phenomenon, but I haven't uploaded it anywhere. If anyone is curious, let me know and I'll see about doing so.
Thanks,
Jason
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Welcome Jason and Congrats on the new bike!
I've never had any problems like you're describing (on my 2012).
It does sound like a problem with the DC-DC converter - hopefully your dealer can diagnose it for sure and fix it soon.
Good luck - let us know how it turns out.
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I have been reading every post on this forum for years and this is the first time I have heard of this problem. I agree, it is most likely a bad DC to DC converter. But it sure wouldn't hurt to check the fuse box and make sure that all of the fuses have good contacts. Also check for any loose connections that you can reach. Other than that, I would call the dealer and see what they have to say. If it is a bad part, you might be stuck without your bike until a new part can arrive from CA. That should figure into your transportation plans, considering your dealer is not nearby.
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Hi Jason! Congrats on your new SR! It's just pure awesomeness isn't it?
Once in 2012 and twice in 2013 I rode my Zero between Austin and Houston. I would go from Whole Foods to Whole Foods. Both have multiple charging stations, and quickly charge up at their ChargePoint stations while I grabbed a healthy bite to eat and a quick pit stop. This was part multiple back and forth coast to coast runs I was doing on my Zero then. I really like the Houston/Katy area. Just some background info. :)
Anyway, like Richard said above, I've known hundreds if not a thousand or more Zero owners between different forums and various facebook pages and groups, and in person and I've never heard of this happening before. But that being said, it definitely sounds like a bad DC/DC converter.
It's located under the seat just above the motor, but it is in there tight and wouldn't advise messing with it unless you're the type of guy who is comfortable taking a complete gas engine apart you've never seen, and being able to put it all back together again. Only you know your own skill level, but I would say wait to get to the dealer. Just make sure you notify them ahead of time and they order one to have on hand when you get there. It would be really nice to have this overlap your 600 mile service and be in and out the same day.
Remember that if the DC/DC goes out, your brake lights likely won't work, so use extreme caution! It would be better to get it fixed first than risk getting rear ended!
I'm not recommending this, but if it gets worse, and you just can't stop yourself from riding (just thinking about myself in your shoes) and you are a talented mechanic, and find the DC/DC (it's a box with a 5 wire straight black connector that ends right behind where you plug in the bike), and feel comfortable removing it, (there's A LOT of conditional statements there in a row) you might see if you can get Zero to send you one directly, and ship the faulty part back to them for inspection. But doing any work like this might void your warranty if not done at a dealer.
I would recommend this to only the most extreme mechanics, and only to you now, as riding without a tail or brake light is more dangerous in my mind than possibly voiding your warranty.
But ideally, and to play it safe, just load it in the truck and take it 150 miles west and if you're close to 600 miles have them do the that service at the same time.
Let us know how it goes! I'm very curious about this.
Terry
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I had something similar (but not nearly as major) happen when I first purchased my 2012 S. The turn signal blinkers wouldn't work. For some reason it wasn't caught during the $400 new bike set-up inspection. ??? It turned out that the turn indicator relay was defective (how often have you heard of that happening?) So the shop pulled one off of a 2011 Zero that they still had on the showroom floor and it has worked fine ever since.
I wonder if the shop has any leftover or used bikes on the showroom floor that could donate a DC/DC converter? I imagine that they are all pretty much alike between recent model years.
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I wonder if the shop has any leftover or used bikes on the showroom floor that could donate a DC/DC converter? I imagine that they are all pretty much alike between recent model years.
Great idea Richard. However I believe the ABS system requires a 500w DC/DC and in previous years it was a 300 watt unit which might not be sufficient for the ABS to function properly.
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Good point, Terry. I know that ABS systems need a fair amount of power to operate properly. That is why motorcycle charging systems now typically make 400 watts or more, instead of the 200 or 300 watts that they used to make - or the 80 watts that they made when I first started riding.
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It wouldn't surprise me if the ABS was the problem. Issues with ECUs and ABS seem to be common in new models. The Ninja 300 was recalled for both.
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Hi guys,
Thanks for all the suggestions and insights.
Terry - good to know you're here - I read about some of your exploits, and have spent a fair bit of time poring over Craig Vetter's site as well. I have been harboring thoughts of doing some light streamlining to this thing at some point. Nothing too extreme, but something to gain some range without giving up too much of the motorcycle look and feel, if that's possible.
My level of comfort... Heh, looking at the mess of stepper motors, motor drivers, arduino bits strewn about my keyboard... I do all the work on my Oilhead, and I'm comfortable around around most tech stuff.
On the other hand, this is literally the first new vehicle I've ever bought (seemed worth it considering the new features over the recent years), so I don't want to hack it up too much just yet.
If it warms up a bit tomorrow, I'll dig into it more thoroughly and see what I can find. Check all the fuse connections, etc.
I have checked the ceramic fuse that's in the loom that's labeled DC-DC, and that looked clean (vs pitted, etc).
You're right, Terry, about the brake light. It's powered by that 12v supply, so, it's really not (IMO) a good idea to ride the bike in the 12 volt-less state, even though it's completely ride-able. Actually, I'm surprised the instruments work (though without the backlight), but I guess some of the gadgets on the bike probably have their own supplies, or use a supply that puts out something other than 12v (5v, perhaps?).
dkw12002, your comment about the ABS seems worth consideration, too. When the problem first came up, I only noticed the headlight and the ABS light flickering together. In retrospect, I suspect that's just all that I noticed, and not all that was happening, but it planted a suspicion of the ABS unit which hasn't completely faded.
So, I think my plan is: Try to get to the 12v power supply, checking all connectors and fuses on the way. Disconnect and reconnect. See if that does any good. If not, maybe try to find the ABS module, and disconnect it (or just pull its fuse) and see if the rest of the bike perks up. Hm... Don't know why I didn't think of this already: I could also start pulling fuses in general, and see if I can isolate anything. Though I suspect if it was anything putting too much load, the appropriate fuse would simply go.
Meanwhile, talk to AF1 about suggestions and options, and maybe give Zero a call, too. Maybe they can offer some trouble-shooting pointers.
Richard, thanks for your ideas, too... I do happen to know that when my SR showed up, they got a demo SR in the same shipment ;) Maybe I can talk them into a bit of light cannibalization.
Terry,
I do believe you have quite a bit of charging apparatus on your bike... I'm afraid if I tried to ride mine to Austin (from Kingwood, on the NE side of Houston), it would take me about ... well, I could probably almost make the trip on one charge if I went about 30mph :D. I don't have any extra chargers on mine (though I did get the extra battery pack/Power Tank), so I could eat several lunches at Whole Foods while waiting for the bike to charge appreciably - that's ok, it works for my commute with an overnight charge just fine.
Thanks for the lead on the DC-DC location - do you happen to know if it's still in the same area on the 2015's?
Thanks all!
Oh, and I couldn't ride it in this morning - even after 10 or 15 minutes of being turned on, not even a glimmer of 12v. So I rode the Beemer instead. Also, it was COLD (for Houston) this AM - in the forties, I think. Again, that may be a factor. Could be that if it warms up a bit this problem will diminish sufficiently to let me hit 600 miles!
Thanks again,
Jason
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hi Jason, when I got my 2014 SR I had the same problems you are describing. if you take the seat off and the side cover you can get to the 5 wire plug going into the DC DC converter. I could wiggle this plug back and forth and make my lights go off and on. I ended up taking the 5 wire plug off and bending the tabs just slightly plug it back in and haven't had any more problems remember one of those wires is hot all the time. Jim
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Another update:
It warmed up sufficiently yesterday that I went into the bike with gusto.
I got to the DC-DC converter, and after much fiddling, removed the connector. I had noticed that the wires on the convertor's connector had some oily residue, but upon removing the connector and getting a better look, I'm pretty sure that was by design - it appears Zero packed the connector with some dielectric grease - presumably to keep moisture out of this otherwise non-weatherproof connector.
I checked all the fuses, and they all looked good. Checked some with ohm meter, just visually checked the others. The contact were all clean looking. Wiggled the wires going to the keyswitch. Nothing made a difference.
I then took the bike for a ride on some (mostly) back roads, covering about 30 miles in an hour. The 12v system never came online. It's fully dead, now.
Interesting details I've noted:
- The brake light circuit is what triggers the second stage of regen. Without the 12v system, I only get the first stage of regen. Makes sense, but it hadn't occurred to me until now.
- The Bluetooth connection still works, even without the 12V. I can change my programming, monitor ride status, etc. Works fine.
- I finally figured out that lifting the kickstand with the bike "on" is what forces the ride display screen on the Android app. Up till now, I just thought that the phone app was buggy, and that it would sometimes just keep reverting to that screen making it a PITA to make changes. Again, makes sense, but didn't know it until now. If you want to tweak settings, just put the stand down. (A little popup/toast message in the app letting you know what was going on would have been nice.)
That's all for now... I haven't decided what the next step is. I'm waiting on a response from Zero. I'm currently just under 300 miles. If they're willing to send me a DC-DC converter, I'll probably go that route. If not, I guess I'll be making an extra trip to Austin, because it'll take me weeks to hit 600 miles at this rate, and I won't be getting full enjoyment out of the bike in the meantime.
Jason
Two photos attached - one showing the bike shy a lot of plastic, and one showing the connector packed with dielectric grease (or similar) - DC-DC converter is the silver-wrapped box below. I guess. Matches Terry's description, anyway, and the wires seemed to lead that way, without tearing all the braiding off.
Jim,
Just saw your post as I was writing this - I may give that a shot. Good idea, thanks. I have wiggled it a fair bit, but haven't tried that while the bike was on (By the time I'd figured out which connector was the right one, I'd disconnected so many connectors, the bike wouldn't switch on.)
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Ok, so I went out to try Jim's suggestion, turned the bike on, walked to my shop area to grab a plastic spudger so I could jab at the connector without taking the bike apart, walked back, and you guessed it - the lights were on!
I turned it off and repeated the process a couple times and jabbing at the connector didn't seem to make a difference one way or the other, but the lights would do their flicker/warm up/turn on routine. I'm assuming that it turned on because it had been warming up for the last hour or so.
I'd taken two short trips earlier today, totaling about 16 miles, and the 12v never came on, but since then it had been sitting in the garage, sheltered from the wind. My thoughts are that while riding, all the cool air circulating kept it from warming up, but when it had a chance to sit in some still air near a warmed up motor and battery pack, it had a chance to warm up itself, and start working.
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Do you have a photo of the back of the bike pillion seat area, with seat and panels off, I want to make a custom luggage rack and need a photo of rear sub frame.
My SR wont be delivered until March or April.
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Hi,
I looked back at the pictures I took, and the one above is the best one I have of that area. I never did take the tail plastics off.
Here's one from the opposite side that give a bit more of an idea how the factory/Givi rack mounts. The allen screw you can see that goes through the luggage rack is the same that holds the seat on. The threaded insert in the luggage rack is not used in my configuration. I'm not sure what it's there for.
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Thanks for the Photo. Shows me clearly how its mounted.
I find the spec for the top box load of 3kg or 6 pounds to be very low.
I have a L shape ventura rack on my SV650 mounted in place where the grab rails were.
It sits just behind pillion seat and allows me to put my r-jay explorer luggage bag on the seat facing forward.
or I can also place on the rack facing backwards. I know the seat can carry 100kg :)
http://www.bikebiz.com.au/products/Rjays-Expandable-Explorer-Rack-Bag.html (http://www.bikebiz.com.au/products/Rjays-Expandable-Explorer-Rack-Bag.html)
regarding the extra threaded insert on the side, I think that is for mounting the side pannier rack
(http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/images/large/10-05729_b.jpg)
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Do you have a photo of the back of the bike pillion seat area, with seat and panels off, I want to make a custom luggage rack and need a photo of rear sub frame.
My SR wont be delivered until March or April.
When I visited Intermot in 2012 and 2014 I made some photos of the stock luggage rack, maybe they are useful to you.
You can find them via below links:
2012
https://flic.kr/s/aHsjCo6T4N
2014
https://flic.kr/s/aHsk4cJfdC
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FYI, I know the 2015 racks "have been redesigned" which is why I am still waiting on mine, so that picture might be a bit out of date.
And also, I've never seen OEM racks without some ridiculous weight limit of "two kittens and a feather" which is annoying as I depend on my bike to get groceries home, so I usually ignore it.
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That's all for now... I haven't decided what the next step is. I'm waiting on a response from Zero. I'm currently just under 300 miles. If they're willing to send me a DC-DC converter, I'll probably go that route. If not, I guess I'll be making an extra trip to Austin, because it'll take me weeks to hit 600 miles at this rate, and I won't be getting full enjoyment out of the bike in the meantime.
Jason,
No need to wait on any response from the factory. You should get your motorcycle to your dealer as they have the training and tools to diagnose and get this resolved quickly. I found your customer information in our system and am creating a Technical Case to track the work at AF1. I'll send you the case number via PM. And I'll have one of our Customer Service Technicians look this over and reach out to AF1 to make sure they are looking for you.
Sorry you are seeing this problem!
aaronzeromoto
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Hi Aaron,
Thanks for the response, but I have called the factory and left a message, so it seems worthwhile to see what they say... Unless you're responding to that call here.
While I absolutely agree that getting the bike to the dealer is the ultimate answer, you may have noted above that I live in Houston, and the Dealer is in Austin. With a 350 mile round trip involved, I'd like to minimize the number of trips I have to make :-D
Part of that means delaying until I take it there for the 600 mile checkup, if possible (my commute is 50 miles a day, if I can ride it, so it won't take long...), and part of that means making sure they have the parts on hand to fix it when I bring it in so that I don't have to drop it off and come back some other time to pick it up again... Waiting overnight might be doable, but only if I take a day off work, since they're closed on Sundays, as is usual for MC dealers.
UPDATE on the topic, for those interested. Following up on my recent suspicion that the temperature may have something to do with the problem, I parked the bike on the heated side of my garage (the "shop") today, and left it there while I went to work. When I came home, I turned the key, got headlight flickers immediately, vs. the lack of response I've typically seen the last few days. I'd say that's good news. Except that it means duplicating the issue may be tricky if the weather takes a turn for the warmer...
Jason
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He responded here for you, what I got from it. Arron is in charge of after sale service, so he is the top of the department.
To me it doesn't sound like the dc to dc
I hate to say it but I think dealer is your best option.
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Hi,
Haven't posted an update here in a while because I was riding... :)
I determined that by parking in the heatable (shop) side of my garage at home, and near some A/C units that are IN the parking garage at work, the bike stays warm enough that I can either turn the bike on and enjoy working 12V, or have working 12V after 10-60 seconds of flickering.
With that in mind, and some "Long Way Home" rides home, I managed to get to "approximately 600 miles" by Friday of last week, and put it in the truck Saturday morning and drove it 175 miles west, back out to Austin for its 600 mile check up and to get the 12V system fixed.
Had a brief chat with Brent, demonstrated the problem, and explained that if he kept it warm he may not be able to duplicate the problem. I hope to hear tomorrow that they've identified the problem and ordered whatever parts are needed. I'm betting the gas money to drive to Austin that it's a DC/DC converter... Oh, wait, that money's been spent. Damn.
Well, hopefully it's sorted in time for me to pick it up this weekend, but if not, probably the week after.
Otherwise... I've been commuting to work on it, obviously. It's about 25 miles each way, mostly highway, and since I take the HOV lane (car pool lane), it moves pretty fast most days.
I have the PT, for a total of 15.3kwh, or whatever it is (something like that), and I have been making it into work with about 65% remaining. Generally, I get home with somewhere around 30% remaining. There's a bit of power available where I work, but not exactly where I like to park (and certainly not near those AC units that enable me to make it home with 12v working!) I'm OK with that - that's why I bought the Power Tank.
My ride is about 19-20 miles highway (out of 25, each way), with average speeds ranging from 65-75 mph, with brief bits down to 55 or up to 80/85. Mostly in the high 60's, low 70's. All speeds are indicated. I haven't compared with a GPS to see if the Zero suffers the wild optimism that all my other bikes have suffered. Anyway, I'm going with the flow, not crouching, not streamlined, with no windscreen, and I can make it back and forth to my workplace on a single charge and no real reason for range anxiety (other than an efficiency OCD). Oh, and the temperature has been cool. Cold even, depending on your definition. I'd say some days were in the 40's in the mornings, and only one day was warm enough in the afternoon that I would have been comfortable without my Aerostich. I'm looking forward to what warmer weather does for my range, and confident I could make it even on really cold days (I don't ride in freezing weather if I think precipitation is a real possibilty... This is Texas, not Montana!)
On my Long Way Home days, I got to about 75-80 miles of mostly highway, with speeds tapering off toward the tail end to make sure I made it home. I've made it home on those days with 4-7% SOC remaining.
In this temperature, without crouching, I'd say the 94 miles at 70mph is not possible, but I'd be willing to believe that in warmer weather, crouched, it may be doable. (Keep in mind, about ten of those 75-80 miles were at 'city' speeds, not 70 mph)
All in all, really enjoying the bike, and looking forward to what comes of the recent chatter about Vetter making a fairing for the Zero SR. My goal (probably not too useful) would be to fair it in a way that preserves classic motorcycle looks - and hoonability* - as much as possible, while boosting range as much as those constraints allow. I've been looking at pictures of cafe-racer-style fairings, and trying to imagine them applied to a Zero, with concessions for comfort (i.e. no race crouch).
*hoonability - maybe not a word, but I like the feel of this small, light-ish, naked bike. I like how agile it is at low speeds, and how much easier it is to work in downtown traffic than my sport-tourer BMW R1150RS. I'm not really hooning it, but it feels like it when compared to the Beemer and the Super Hawk I also had until recently.
Jason
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Jason, out of curiosity, how long does it take for your bike to recharge when you run the battery down to near empty? When I ran my battery to empty, it took 15 hours to fully recharge back to 98%. (Somewhat more than what Zero claims in their ads.)
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Cold and wet in a lot of Texas today. Even I am not riding.
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Jason, out of curiosity, how long does it take for your bike to recharge when you run the battery down to near empty? When I ran my battery to empty, it took 15 hours to fully recharge back to 98%. (Somewhat more than what Zero claims in their ads.)
I haven't run it down 'all the way' (it wasn't even showing signs of reduced power, though I wasn't taxing it much as I got close to home), it was back to 100% by the time I needed it to be, probably 13 or 14 hours later. I don't know how long it took to get to 100%.
You said 'fully recharge back to 98%'... Does yours not reach 100%? Ever? I'd guess there's a problem if that's true.
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Cold and wet in a lot of Texas today. Even I am not riding.
I managed to beat the rain this morning. We'll see how I fare on the way home!!
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Jason, out of curiosity, how long does it take for your bike to recharge when you run the battery down to near empty? When I ran my battery to empty, it took 15 hours to fully recharge back to 98%. (Somewhat more than what Zero claims in their ads.)
I haven't run it down 'all the way' (it wasn't even showing signs of reduced power, though I wasn't taxing it much as I got close to home), it was back to 100% by the time I needed it to be, probably 13 or 14 hours later. I don't know how long it took to get to 100%.
You said 'fully recharge back to 98%'... Does yours not reach 100%? Ever? I'd guess there's a problem if that's true.
My bike stops charging at 98% then 24 hours later it turns back on by itself and continues charging to 100%, at which time the Zero app says that I have 13.34 kWh of power in my battery pack. That works for me. :)
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Wrapping up this thread, I got the bike back from AF-1 Racing last weekend - it was in their care for three weeks to have the 600 mile service done, and to replace the DC-DC converter. There was no charge for the visit, which I appreciated. I get the feeling that it took so long because Zero wasn't exactly responsive to AF-1's calls on the topic of the converter, and the amount of time it took for the new converter to arrive. I think it was actually ready on a Tuesday or Wednesday, but I wasn't able to get back to Austin till the following Friday, so, from that perspective, it was only two and a half weeks.
Since then, I've been enjoying it in some 'brisk' weather. Last week, I commuted twice when the weather was in the 30's. The first time I made it home with 17% power left (that's a 50 mile round trip). There was a heck of a headwind on the return trip. The second time, I made it to work with 55% power remaining... That is, it took 45% to go 25 miles. I had a bit of a headwind (but not as bad as the previous evening), but I think it was a touch warmer (maybe 37 degrees?). Considering the trip home the previous day took 50-55% power, I called chicken, and found an outlet to plug into. I wasn't sure I'd make it home otherwise, without taking it really slow.
I'm not regretting getting the extra power capacity. For the record, my speeds on those trips were in the 60-75 mph range, on the HOV lane. I may have had brief bits around 80, but there were also bits below 60 (not to mention the bits on surface streets)
I'm looking forward to milder weather, and think my battery pack is too! :)