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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: heroto on June 27, 2018, 07:10:56 AM
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Ignorant newbie here learning how to baby the diva batteries that power our Zeroes. A big rule I've learned is charging to less than 100% most of the time is a good thing. Can I buy a gizmo or somehow program my moto to stop charging at at certain % charge, say 80 or whatever? This would be with the stock on board gear, no superchargers etc for now, thank you.
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You could do what I do and just pull the plug when the display reads the percentage that you want to stop charging at. However, doing that probably won't do anything to balance the battery modules as that seems to occur during the last few minutes after the display reads 100%.
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DigiNow's newest controller v2.5 has a protocol that lets you set the voltage to stop charging at. 110V or so is about 80%.
I have a little Bluetooth serial app that shows the charge events and lets me send pre-set configurations by pushing buttons. It's not bad as a holdover until they're ready to publish an app.
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With the BMS system on the Zero and most EVs you really have no idea what percent you are really charging to in the same way when your SOC says 0% your batteries aren't really dead. Just because your SOC says 100% that doesn't mean that your batteries are truly charged to 100%. You have to trust Zero's programming of the BMS to charge the batteries to whatever level they feel is best.
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Are we really charging to 100% when it says 100%? If you look at the app it will say its charged to 12.XX kW but the battery is 13KW. It was explained to me that it prevents the battery from being overcharged and keeps it from 100% charging. Is that still the case?
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Indeed the batteries of our zero do not really use their capabilities 100%.
My model zero S 2016 13kw includes 28S / 4P either without BMS 28 cells farasis x 4.20 = 117.6 volts and 29 AH X4 = 116 AH is a capacity of 117.6x116AH = 13416 watts
In reality since the beginning I measure after a full load 12064 Watts!
Either in reality a clamping of 10% of the battery, we can say that after a 100% charge with bms in reality the bms cut 90% of the battery so a very good thing for our farasis.
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You can use a 24h timer. I use this 220V one (https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B005O1AQE0/), but many are available. Here is an US / 110V version (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MVFF59S).
When I plug my bike, it says how many time it will spend to go to full charge. It appears that this estimated time is quite good. Say your timer to stop 2 hours before, and voila.
My timer is rated 3500W. Zero bikes are charging at 1300W max (it can be less depending on the bike (https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger). Mine is 720W). So there is no problem.
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Like the idea of an inexpensive mechanical timers, very clever. There may be issues with the amount of current, so I’ll shop for a heavy duty model. Thanks for the suggestion.
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What you can do is charge to a specific voltage (constant-voltage mode trigger) like 110V. That's close enough to 80% for most people, and is how the DigiNow 2.5 control protocol works.
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And where does one acquire a "constant-voltage mode trigger"?
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> "Ignorant newbie here learning how to baby the diva batteries that power our Zeroes... "
They aren't really divas at all. Just some of us want maximum life and are willing to geek out about it a bit.
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> Are we really charging to 100% when it says 100%? ...
Pretty much when it hits max voltage (116.5V), my 2014 SR will say 100%.
But of course it tapers off charge rate at that point and continues to charge
(jargon: switches from CC to CV mode) as "the charges migrate deeper into
the structure"
I'd say if you disconnected right away when it says 100%, you're only actually
like 95% charged. So keep that in mind, and don't get stranded. : - )
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And where does one acquire a "constant-voltage mode trigger"?
It's not a product, it's a feature. The new Diginow controllers can be told to stop
at a particular voltage that's below the max. That's known as "constant voltage"
mode in the charging cycle. There's lots of good info about charging systems online,
like on wikipedia or batteryuniversity.com
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
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togo is correct that it's a charger operational feature.
SoC is an estimation and battery terminal voltage is readily measurable, so chargers target voltage and then reduce charging level to prevent exceeding that voltage. Voltage experiences "lift" while charging, so a charger reducing its rate when it meets a certain level can ensure a "governor" like control limit.
This is a reliable way to manage the battery and basically every EV charger operates this way.
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A big rule I've learned is charging to less than 100% most of the time is a good thing.
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Is this true?
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I'm no expert, but according to the link provided above by Togo.........yes.
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Thank you for that.
It's not what I wanted to hear/read, but I won't shoot the messenger ;D
But now which charging strategy is more important to battery longevity.
Lower then 100% level or cell ballence?
Is it possible to get both?
Perhaps alternate charge strategies?
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Thank you for that.
It's not what I wanted to hear/read, but I won't shoot the messenger ;D
But now which charging strategy is more important to battery longevity.
Lower then 100% level or cell ballence?
Is it possible to get both?
Perhaps alternate charge strategies?
Cell balance is achievable if the charger plateaus at 80% or 110V just as easily as 100%. The BMS just does this while charging and taper assists.
Zero published the new charging recommendations a year ago and the entire owner community has fretted incessantly about it.
It’s still okay to charge to 100% but long term resting states are better if no higher than 80%. Like, really long term. Short term parking at 80% is good if you can afford it in your daily commute.
100% is built into their warranty. 80% just gives you more life than the warranty implies.
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My commute is about 55 miles round trip. 2016 DSR (no Power Tank).
My present daily commute routine is to charge at work.
Typically I'll have 70% +- when I get home.
If for some reason I have less then 60-65%, I'll top off to at least that level.
When I arrive at work I'll have approx 25% left.
I like to maintain that surplus in case of road closures or having to return home before the end of work/full charge (I.E. range anxiety).
At this point, I'm thinking that I'll try to unplug somewhere around 80%+ (providing this allows full cell balance.
Whether I do this occasional or habitually to be determined..........
What I've found when stoping charging below 100% is that after unplugging, the charge level will (falsely) be higher then it would if allowed to charge to 100%.
This false figure will come into play if one were to push the range to the max. (Don't ask how I know!!!). Limp home mode sucks (but works).
Hopefully by the time this battery degrades to the point of effecting performance, Solid State battery's will be available with all their advanced advantages.
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Unplugging the charger in the middle of the charge is not the same as setting the charger so that it levels off at a lower voltage.
It should balance better if you use a charger level-off setting instead of pulling the plug.
Also, unplugging the onboard charger while it's operating is a bad idea; I think we all agree that the Calex 1200 is a piece of equipment not worth messing with.
If you're commuting every day, there's very little benefit for you not to charge to 100%. The difference between 100% and 80% for that time period is not going to be critical.
It seems like it's much easier for you to just "not charge" when you finish a commute leg and you're at 60-70%, and then wait for the end of the next leg to actually charge, rather than trying to get an 80% target.
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I'm a nebee in EV/charging so bare with me.
Sounds like the stock charger (which I have) is not charge level selectable & thus my best option with it is to just leave plugged in until the charge is compleat (100%).
When charging above 80%, is it storage time or level above 80% that is (most) detrimental to battery longevity?
On average, the bike sits for 1.5 hrs at most after charge is compleat before I start my home bound leg.
I'm trying to maximize my charging at work to help offset the cost of the bike & I'm trying to learn/understand the optimal charging scheme.
If I can extend the battery life I'm all ears...... ummmmmm eyes :D
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Per http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/charging-recommendations/
All they are saying is that normally, you should unplug it when the charge is complete. (Not before)
For long-term storage, 30-70% is a better range for the battery.
So, it only matters how long it sits continuously above 80% or whatever. What I've heard suggests that it's just a matter of whether the battery chemistry sits around for a very long time at a high state of charge.
You're not doing that. So this is not a concern for you, except maybe for long term winter storage.
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I ride Weather or not so no storage concerns.
To recap.....
The Ultimate battery longevity can only be achieved with an aftermarket charger that can be configured to stop charging at a predetermined level (voltage) & it will then balance the cells.
However, using the stock charger & following Zero’s recommendations should still yeld an exceptable life from the battery.
Hope my understanding on this is correct.
I was happy following the Zero procedure until I read the link Togo provided.
The only thing I question on the Zero recommendation is “charge after each usageâ€.
What if your running errands? You won’t charge at each stop (unless range anxiety is an issue).
On my commute I start @ 100% at the end of work. I then ride home with 60+% & leave that level overnight.
Ride to work & plug in @ +-20%.
Is this reasonable or should I plug in/top off to 100% at home too?
Work encourages EV & I would like to use their power instead of mine (providing I’m not compromising battery longevity).
The question is which is more detrimental?
Leaving battery at 100% or 64-74% overnight/weekend?
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I commute 80km to work on a 2013DS 12,5kW.
If I ride performance (120-140km/h) the battery will be 15-20% at work and will be charging for like 6 hours to get 100% on 1,3kW charging.
But the cable will be connected for 8-9 hours depending my working day.
At home it will stay longer on loader till the morning I leave again.
For me I think it should not be bad for the battery, because I use it every day (in weekend I <also> drive for fun ;-) )
Think the recommendations are only for the extreme periods of time not using the bike?
But I will be following this item because now ordered the Diginow 2.5 bellypan mounted 3,3kW version wich I can program to stop charging at certain level power.
The cell balancing bit is for me very important, I will want it to be finished in good fashion.
By the way, my experience:
* usable battery capacity: 11,3kW (12.5 battery)
- 3 times I had it driven to completly empty and me pushing, oops!, my fault thinking 3% in the app is really 3% (also on dashboard was 0 when app showed 15%, so I was allready breaking my luck)
- it will drop in speed first 100km/h....20km/h, and: shutdown when I was doing like 10km/h on a bicycle lane and using about 0,3kW for allready 4km, and: walk
- to bad you can't put it in neutral
* 50-110km/h travels: 85-100W/km
* 110-140km/h travels: 100-140W/km
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180711/4dac768732af494474d2ff58886a7764.png)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180711/ea22d9b818d3c41190db70e191cdbe66.png)
Here are screenshots of my iOS based Bluetooth app control screens (but not the protocol details). The buttons send preset configurations to the V2.5 charging controller.
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Oki, that looks allready fine.
Is this app gonna be released soon?
I mean when people like me get the v2.5 bellypan version is the app available and workable for noobs like me?
Also on Android I hope.... ???
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Even without the app,
1140,90,1,800,0,50
Should instruct a single-unit diginow v2.5 to charge to 114v at 800 watts.
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Oki, but I suppose first have too make connection (with/how?) and have a password?
Any manual for it online?
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I have been wondering the same as DennisNL. I also am getting thr belly pan 2.5 and wondered how to write the commands. I guess we can always ask Morgan when we get them. I asked the question about the basic strings in one of my emails and did not hear anything. Brian, can you maybe steer us in the direction of how the strings work and how to write them? The app is available for sending bluetooth commands already but Diginow is supposed to release an actual app to control the chargers. In the meantime we need to use the app Brian is using. I just don’t know how to get the commands and if the chargers come with basic ones to use so we are familiar with the process.
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I ride Weather or not so no storage concerns.
To recap.....
The Ultimate battery longevity can only be achieved with an aftermarket charger that can be configured to stop charging at a predetermined level (voltage) & it will then balance the cells.
However, using the stock charger & following Zero’s recommendations should still yeld an exceptable life from the battery.
Hope my understanding on this is correct.
I was happy following the Zero procedure until I read the link Togo provided.
The only thing I question on the Zero recommendation is “charge after each usageâ€.
What if your running errands? You won’t charge at each stop (unless range anxiety is an issue).
On my commute I start @ 100% at the end of work. I then ride home with 60+% & leave that level overnight.
Ride to work & plug in @ +-20%.
Is this reasonable or should I plug in/top off to 100% at home too?
Work encourages EV & I would like to use their power instead of mine (providing I’m not compromising battery longevity).
The question is which is more detrimental?
Leaving battery at 100% or 64-74% overnight/weekend?
My commute is similar to yours. On my way to work I use about 20% of the battery. So i use this process.
Charge at work to 100%
Ride home arrive with 75-80%
Ride back to work and arrive with 50-60%
Charge at work for 4-5 hours and leave it plugged in until i go home.
Leave work with 100%
Start cycle again.
I have only plugged in at home 4 or so times the rest is work paying for my commute and errands.
Thats my typical commute. I don’t think the 2-4 hours staying plugged in is going to hurt anything and seems to be well within battery guide lines and Zero Recommendations. Staying at 100% charge for really long times,like weeks is bad and I can see that.
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Oki, but I suppose first have too make connection (with/how?) and have a password?
Any manual for it online?
Bluetooth terminal, BLE.
See BTR's comment about the draft manual he's written, I guess he's waiting for permission or clarification from Electric Cowboy.
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Oki, but I suppose first have too make connection (with/how?) and have a password?
Any manual for it online?
Bluetooth terminal, BLE.
See BTR's comment about the draft manual he's written, I guess he's waiting for permission or clarification from Electric Cowboy.
Thx for extra info, I want to be ready for it when Diginow 2.5 arrive and not anymore have to stay at work because battery isn't enough charged yet to make trip home.
Going from standard 1,3kW/h to 3,3kW/h, have to travel 80km each ride doing mostly 120-130km/h so battery is like allways empty when I arrive... :o 8) :o
For new users like me who only ridden the Zero and not in to the "computer-side" of things every word of extra info is welcome.
Could you email me some shortcuts for more info pls?
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I really don’t see why it’s a big deal that I wait for consent to release information. That’s how I am allowed to hear and record.
If others don’t do this, that’s their business, unless I’m responsible for their having known the information.
The fact that I can’t get a simple release statement and DigiNow thinks it’s okay to operate this way is concerning.
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No problems, my mistake.
I thought u and Diginow were like the same, excuse me, my bad.
:-X :-X
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This thread has gone from a solution for charging to 80% with the stock charger to how to do this with SCv2.5. If you have a bike with a J1772 or Tesla input , ChargeTank or SuperCharger, consider getting a home EVSE with WiFi and a control app. Make sure the app lets you set charging parameters such as time to charge or charge to a percentage. Here's mine on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/1701645009904700/
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Hello,
I think that these combination should do it. I just bought a bluetooth AC switch with freely available python library to control it and a rasberryPI:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PG50OSM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BC7BMHY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Libraries are here: https://github.com/bernieplug/plugable-btaps
Total Cost $80.
I will report on how the project goes....
Giacomo
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Interesting. Can it handle the amps? I don't see any max amps specs.
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On the back it says 15A 1800 Watts.
I will monitor the temperature once I get it.
Giacomo
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Yes, I found https://plugable.com/products/ps-btaps1/ after I wrote it
Electrical Rating 120VAC/60Hz/15A
Good, that should work!
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I was looking at chargers and ChargePoint has one for $599 on Amazon. You can access commands via their app and stop charging any time or at any percentage.
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but: what is best for battery?
say for example:
to 80% at 6kW, than to 90% at 1,3kW?
:o ::) 8)
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Hello,
I think that these combination should do it. I just bought a bluetooth AC switch with freely available python library to control it and a rasberryPI:
............
Is this to be used with the stock charger?
If so, you won’t balance the cells (or I’m I missing something?)
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but: what is best for battery?
say for example:
to 80% at 6kW, than to 90% at 1,3kW?
:o ::) 8)
DigiNows start ramping down the charging current somewhere around 90%. I'm not sure what the ChargeTank does. If you're going to let the bike sit, charge to only 80% to increase battery longevity. If you need more range, complete charging at whatever rate just before you leave. Keep in mind, though, that battery longevity is now pretty good if you don't leave it at very low charge, below 30%, for extended periods of time. So, IMO, it's okay to prioritize convenience over charging to optimize longevity as long as you don't totally ignore it.
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Hello,
I think that these combination should do it. I just bought a bluetooth AC switch with freely available python library to control it and a rasberryPI:
............
Is this to be used with the stock charger?
If so, you won’t balance the cells (or I’m I missing something?)
I've been told that the bike will balance the cells anytime the contactor is closed if the SOC is above about 50%. I charge my bike to 80-90% and don't recharge it until it gets down to about 25-50%. My cell inbalance stays low, about 3-5mV, despite frequent fast accelerations on my commute.
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Hello,
I think that these combination should do it. I just bought a bluetooth AC switch with freely available python library to control it and a rasberryPI:
............
Is this to be used with the stock charger?
If so, you won’t balance the cells (or I’m I missing something?)
I've been told that the bike will balance the cells anytime the contactor is closed if the SOC is above about 50%. I charge my bike to 80-90% and don't recharge it until it gets down to about 25-50%. My cell inbalance stays low, about 3-5mV, despite frequent fast accelerations on my commute.
I guess what I missed is the fact that the jury is still out on stock charger best charging strategy.
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Here's an article from an electric bicycle website, about lithium batteries. It condenses information about lithium batteries for the EV car market, and encourages charging to 80% to extend the life of the battery pack.
https://www.electricbike.com/how-to-make-lithium-battery-last/
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So, charge till 80%, better for battery live (the last 20% doesn't give you equal % per range anyway).
More charges per battery pack will be possible.
Charge as slow as you can because of battery temperature. In general for the battery: lower temp is best.
Long term storage at low percentage and temp will keep battery like new when u use it again.
Lithium batteries don't need too be charged till 100%, best is too have a big enough battery so you never need the full 100% charge. Tesla will stop charging at 80% so the battery will live a lot longer.
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So, charge till 80%, better for battery live (the last 20% doesn't give you equal % per range anyway).
More charges per battery pack will be possible.
Charge as slow as you can because of battery temperature. In general for the battery: lower temp is best.
Long term storage at low percentage and temp will keep battery like new when u use it again.
Lithium batteries don't need too be charged till 100%, best is too have a big enough battery so you never need the full 100% charge. Tesla will stop charging at 80% so the battery will live a lot longer.
But if you are going to stop charging at 80%, what is the point of paying another $2,600 (or whatever it was) for the Power Tank so that I can go as far as possible on a single charge? I would rather use that extra 20% power for traveling, rather than for making the battery last as long as possible. Especially as Zero claims that the battery pack will last for about 350,000 miles. That is a lot longer than either I or the motorcycle's chassis will continue to function. ::)
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I need every kilometer I can get out of my battery, but it's nice to know what could be done for the battery live.
Only question the Tesla part gives me:
is 100% SOC of my Zero really 100% of my battery capacity, or is 100% SOC really like 80% capacity so Zero can claim the high kilometer warranty of its battery pack ?? :o
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I need every kilometer I can get out of my battery, but it's nice to know what could be done for the battery live.
Only question the Tesla part gives me:
is 100% SOC of my Zero really 100% of my battery capacity, or is 100% SOC really like 80% capacity so Zero can claim the high kilometer warranty of its battery pack ?? :o
My reference to Tesla was to compare. I'm not referencing a Tesla part for your Zero.
If you do the arithmetic, and add up the cell voltages, Zero's maximum voltage of 116.4 is pretty darn close to the max voltage for the cells in series. I don't think Zero is holding any reserve out on you.
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And why do you need every kilometer out of your battery? Do you like to live on the edge? Do you like range anxiety? I used to do that, then I learned where the stations are, which ones have pleasant coffee shops and shopping and restaurants, and switched to a charge-early, charge-often, low-stress mentality.
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And why do you need every kilometer out of your battery? Do you like to live on the edge? Do you like range anxiety? I used to do that, then I learned where the stations are, which ones have pleasant coffee shops and shopping and restaurants, and switched to a charge-early, charge-often, low-stress mentality.
Well, my commute was 110km on highway and charge at work for 8-9 hours to make it home again.
That meant in the Netherlands 100-130km/h max speed highways.
Also drive all year round in any kind of weather (so think of sometimes really hard wind and rain or even -10°C in good weather in winter)
I have a 12,5kW battery and needed to mainly go 95-105km/h and sometimes go faster to pass trucks without being roadkill for cars (we mainly have only 2 lanes on highways).
But on top of it: YES I would love to drive like I did on my ICE bike (faster than average) and need every kilometer.
Now my commute is 75km, but I stil 'manage' to consume every percentage of battery..... 8) My bad.
And I still have the standard 1,3kW/h charger, Diginow is coming soon to make it possible for some recharge.
But being it a commute you don't want to waste time charging 2 times every day extra.
When driving for fun I manage 160km and never use the highway. With Diginow I hope for longer trips like with previous bikes: 200-800km a day.
But it's costly, so first start with 3,3kW/h and hope ending with 9,9kW/h in the bellypan.
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Dennis... Please let us know how that first day with the diginow goes when you get it[emoji16]. You are going to love it!
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Dennis... Please let us know how that first day with the diginow goes when you get it[emoji16]. You are going to love it!
Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
Thx for your response, will do.
Been reading your posts just yet, nice.
TrailTrail, solar power off grid, long distance travel, Diginow!
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And why do you need every kilometer out of your battery? Do you like to live on the edge? Do you like range anxiety? I used to do that, then I learned where the stations are, which ones have pleasant coffee shops and shopping and restaurants, and switched to a charge-early, charge-often, low-stress mentality.
Well, my commute was 110km on highway and charge at work for 8-9 hours to make it home again.
That meant in the Netherlands 100-130km/h max speed highways.
Also drive all year round in any kind of weather (so think of sometimes really hard wind and rain or even -10°C in good weather in winter)
I have a 12,5kW battery and needed to mainly go 95-105km/h and sometimes go faster to pass trucks without being roadkill for cars (we mainly have only 2 lanes on highways).
But on top of it: YES I would love to drive like I did on my ICE bike (faster than average) and need every kilometer.
Now my commute is 75km, but I stil 'manage' to consume every percentage of battery..... 8) My bad.
And I still have the standard 1,3kW/h charger, Diginow is coming soon to make it possible for some recharge.
But being it a commute you don't want to waste time charging 2 times every day extra.
When driving for fun I manage 160km and never use the highway. With Diginow I hope for longer trips like with previous bikes: 200-800km a day.
But it's costly, so first start with 3,3kW/h and hope ending with 9,9kW/h in the bellypan.
Dennis... Please let us know how that first day with the diginow goes when you get it[emoji16]. You are going to love it!
Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
Thx for your response, will do.
Been reading your posts just yet, nice.
TrailTrail, solar power off grid, long distance travel, Diginow!
Yeah, rapid charging, and knowing where the stations are, makes a huge difference. Segments I used to sweat are now broken up by a quick charging/bathroom/espresso break, and no range worries, and I have confidence my battery is spending little or now time at the stressful >80% or <20% levels.
And BTW, charging to 100% just before a trip is fine. You just don't want your battery to spend much time there.
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"And BTW, charging to 100% just before a trip is fine. You just don't want your battery to spend much time there"
This is the key. Nobody wants to feel like they need to spend hours charging up just before they ride simply to get the best pack life. However, even when a buyer has the largest pack available by Zero, do they ride the max miles on every trip? Of course not.
If you are nearing a dead pack at the end of a ride, you have gotten all of your money's worth out of the extra price of a larger pack. That being said, most times you will likely only use half the packs capacity. If you ride to 70% (or less) of your pack's capacity on a daily basis, you have options. If you charge to 80% at the end of the day, then...you might double the pack life of your expensive investment. Definitely a GREAT Return On Investment / ROI.
When I wake up in the morning, I often eat some breakfast, along with the first cup of coffee. Maybe change up your routine to take the pack that you charged overnight to 80% and set it to charge to 100% while you eat breakfast. If you truly only use 70% of the packs range each day, then...you could get to work with no extra charging at all, right?
The extra charge between waking up and when you actually start riding is simply a bonus, in order to add a safety margin to your range.
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. . . If you truly only use 70% of the packs range each day, then...you could get to work with no extra charging at all, right?
The extra charge between waking up and when you actually start riding is simply a bonus, in order to add a safety margin to your range.
I'm Captain Obvious chiming in here to state what everyone probably knows, but is that 70% usage measured at the height of summer or the dead of winter? Plus, for best battery life, you'd want to arrive home with 30% left instead of 10%.
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Sorry if this has already been answered:
When our Zeros display 100% charged, is that really 100%, or does Zero limit the max charge to protect the battery, so 100% is really something less?
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Sorry if this has already been answered:
When our Zeros display 100% charged, is that really 100%, or does Zero limit the max charge to protect the battery, so 100% is really something less?
Zero limits the battery pack's actual charge so that it doesn't get too high or too low. The 100% charge number is just arbitrary. When fully charged my 2014 Zero showed 117 volts when the display read 100%, but my new 2018 Zero shuts down charging and shows 100% when the pack is at 115 volts. The same goes when fully discharged. My 2014 bike would run down to 0% and then shut off. But I understand that the newer bikes will continue to work even after a 0% is displayed on the instrument panel. So Zero seems to be very concerned about the life of their batteries and uses their BMS system to make sure that the battery cells do not become overly or under charged so that their life is extended even when being fully charged or discharged by the owner.
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Yes, I understand that, thanks, this is what I'm getting at.
I'll ask my question another way:
Since 80% of true max charge seems to be a good goal for max charge when practical, what charge is that as displayed on the Zero dashboard? 85%? 90%? 100%?
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Yes, I understand that, thanks, this is what I'm getting at.
I'll ask my question another way:
Since 80% of true max charge seems to be a good goal for max charge when practical, what charge is that as displayed on the Zero dashboard? 85%? 90%? 100%?
heroto - An answer to your question is contained in an ElectricZen post.
Also, suggestion: Dash battery percentage - Never, Never, Never believe it. Voltage is the answer. ElectricZen had a nice write up recently. The Unofficial manual discusses it (State of Charge)
ElectricZen’s post - Re: Firmware versions and issues. #firmwaregate
« on: July 04, 2018, 05:30:45 AM »
Here’s a recent example of a false dash battery percentage:
Yesterday, I recharged to about 114v. Percentage showed 85%. While in a 50 mile transit, I observed the percentage dip to a low of 83%. Towards the end of the trip, it climbed to 86%. At home, the voltage was 99v.
Summary - Trust your voltage, ignore the dash battery percentage, and review ElectricZen’s post.
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Thanks
In case someone else wants to know what was in ElectricZen’s post, here is the summary paragraph, edited for clarity:
“Watch your battery voltage rather than the state of charge displayed on the dashboard! 100v is about 20% and 112v is about 80%. Battery discharge is pretty linear between those two. 0%-20% and 80%-100% follow a different curve. 116.4v is full and 96v is empty. “
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Quick followup: Thanks to the wisdom dispensed on this and other threads, I now charge based on voltage. The % charge is all over the map at the lower end, e.g. today I had 100v listed as 38%.
So:
Note to Zero:
Dear Zero,
I am a happy but sometimes a bit confused owner of a 2018 7.2 S
Voltage as displayed on the app and state of charge as displayed on the dashboard often do not correlate. Smart people are telling me to pay attention to battery voltage rather than state of charge. Why is battery voltage not a display option on the moto's dashboard, but I can read it on my cell phone via the app? It seems that you regard it as somewhat important but not very important. Confusing. Do you know something they don't know?
PS: longer cables and lines please, so we can raise the bars out of sport touring position to true touring position.
PPS: and a longer kickstand option, too, thank you.
PPS: Harley and others are coming. Competition is good for the consumer. Now would be a most excellent time to step up your game in terms of consumer relations and satisfaction. I hope you read this as a supportive comment as that is my intention.
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I’m using a data collection app while I ride that tracks voltage, and I can say for sure that voltage while riding varies more because of throttle position than anything else.
It varies so strongly that I dare say that one could build a dynamic map of overall system impedance by plotting throttle angle against droop.
I use a throttle lock to hold position for efficiency which locks in current steady for a given SoC and any twitch of the position changes voltage. Voltage is accurate down to mV.
Here’s a screenshot of two rides plots to illustrate.
Now, that said, an indication could be devised that inferred better from direct sensor results.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180811/48401965c6a4b141ca7996dd5fc0a128.png)
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Help me understand how this relates to voltage/state of chage with the moto motionless before or after a ride.
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Help me understand how this relates to voltage/state of chage with the moto motionless before or after a ride.
You’re right. I didn’t make that clear.
So, it is true that the precise sensor is very useful.
However, I think there’s an aspect where once a charge cycle or ride is stopped, the voltage drifts towards a resting state so there’s some projection or a quick heuristic needed to predict what voltage to use.
I noticed while riding that letting the throttle return to neutral with “0%†coasting regen still had some drift.
I think we need better instrumentation to get more accurate than the shorthand table we’ve been using that’s vaguely accurate for a given single volt precision measurement.
And there is educated suggestions that this value drifts with factors like ambient temperature and battery lifetime age (full charge and discharge cycles).
One way around this is just to have a calibration program that observes reported SoC and voltage sensor readings at rest over time and maintains a curve just for your bike over time.
Sorry, this is all too speculative but it’s part of what’s on my mind. Voltage while riding fluctuates a lot, is a point I was trying to focus on as a reason Zero omits it.
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Short answer: targeting 110V to 112V should be fine for most purposes this thread targets.
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I told my daughter to keep her 2014 S plugged in for a week and today it was showing 98% charge and 115 volts. Before it would shut off at 92% charge and 113 volts once the charger would shut off after a ride. The bike has spent most of its life plugged in 24/7 and doesn't seem much the worse for wear because of that practice.
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Help me understand how this relates to voltage/state of chage with the moto motionless before or after a ride.
Sorry, this is all too speculative but it’s part of what’s on my mind. Voltage while riding fluctuates a lot, is a point I was trying to focus on as a reason Zero omits it.
Thanks, your answer makes perfect sense. Zero could still put battery voltage on the dashboard during charging.
Regarding 0% coasting regen not really being zero per cent: I know what a coasting ICE moto feels like, having owned several, and the Zero at 0% has more drag. Someone who understands the drive motor may be able to explain it, but it does seem the the setting of "0% coasting regen" is actually "single digit % coasting regen", or "same drag as single digit coasting regen".
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...Regarding 0% coasting regen not really being zero per cent: I know what a coasting ICE moto feels like, having owned several, and the Zero at 0% has more drag. Someone who understands the drive motor may be able to explain it, but it does seem the the setting of "0% coasting regen" is actually "single digit % coasting regen", or "same drag as single digit coasting regen".
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There is drag due to magnetic "cogging" of the rotor even when no regeneration is being done, unlike an ICE unit in neutral!