ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on October 28, 2014, 03:48:58 AM
-
RideApart has included the 2015 Zero as being on of the most exciting products at the AIMExpo show this year. Their description of the new Zero is nothing new - other than this comment, which I found interesting: "Thanks to a Special Forces contract, Zero Motorcycles has reconfigured their battery chemistry to slightly increase the range, without taking away any power. "
Here is the link to their article: https://rideapart.com/articles/exciting-motorcycle-news-aimexpo-2014?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HellForLeather+%28Hell+For+Leather%29
-
Thanks for posting. I am interested in the R3 and could only guess at the red line, but the article says it is 12,500 which is the same as the Ninja 300. It does look like Yamaha is going after the Ninja 300. They made all the specs slightly better. A little lighter, a little faster (top speed of the Ninja 300 is 106 and I bet the Yamaha top speed will be 110), a little more displacement, more torque, more horsepower. I think that covers everything. Oh and no ugly green color.
RideApart has that Zero video on YouTube "The Truth About Electric Motorcycles" from a couple of years ago when they run out of battery on the highway on a 2012 DS, then the rider goes into a mini-tirade saying "Not cool, not cool" as if it snuck up on him. Duh. I await the first actual rider videos where you can hear real pros and cons and not someone touting a bike or panning it in exchange for money or favors.
Anyway, this article seems fair to Zero, but I didn't realize the chemistry had changed. I thought they just put more batteries in the bike to increase range.
-
I was told by a Zero factory engineer that the battery cells were just repackaged so that they could cram 10% more of them into each on-bike module. I think the statement in the article is a little confusing and misstated. I don't believe that Zero changed the chemistry, just "reconfigured" the cell packaging.
Speaking of running out of power: Motorcyclist magazine has a 4-page non-instrumented test of the Empulse R in the latest (December) issue of their magazine and guess what? They ran out of power well into their planned 60-mile ride and came to a halt about 10 miles from their destination. "Brammo Brian", Brammo's Director of Development, had to send a truck to pick up the rider and test bike and return them to the racetrack for recharging so that they could continue to test the Empulse. So it can happen to anyone (Wes) - and no ranting and raving was involved. ;)
-
Ride Apart is correct. Same number of cells, different chemistry. Higher energy density, less power density.
-
I was told by a Zero factory engineer that the battery cells were just repackaged so that they could cram 10% more of them into each on-bike module.
That IS the explanation Zero is giving, and I've heard it repeated other places, but it's confusing me. If, for instance, the battery pack on my 2014 SR is configured as 28S4P (28 in series, four in parallel), how can they have added 10% capacity without changing the cell voltage? If you add a fifth in parallel, that's a 25% capacity jump, not 10%...and I doubt there's that much packing inefficiency to reclaim!
The only thing that makes any sense in my possibly-addled mind is that the manufacturer of the cells themselves managed to increase the cell capacity by 10%, maybe at the cost of a slightly larger package, which Zero had to shuffle around a bit to fit in. Perhaps that's the repackaging Zero is talking about?
-
Ride Apart is correct. Same number of cells, different chemistry. Higher energy density, less power density.
Ah, thanks Harlan. If I'd waited 30 more seconds to post you'd have given me my answer.
-
RideApart has that Zero video on YouTube "The Truth About Electric Motorcycles" from a couple of years ago when they run out of battery on the highway on a 2012 DS, then the rider goes into a mini-tirade saying "Not cool, not cool" as if it snuck up on him. Duh. I await the first actual rider videos where you can hear real pros and cons and not someone touting a bike or panning it in exchange for money or favors.
For what it's worth, I think Wes' tirade was aimed less at the bike and more at his producers who were pushing him to ride the bike on an LA highway until it was completely flat. That's what I got from the video anyway...
Power loss at about 8 minutes, rant at 9:05.
http://youtu.be/Lej-KopK1tc?t=9m5s (http://youtu.be/Lej-KopK1tc?t=9m5s)
-
I have ridden my bike till it "died" twice now at high way speeds and both without warning.
Each time the bike's encoder got water on it and the bike started to freak out. IMO this is worse than the bike simply dying with a chase vehicle behind you.
Even if his producers did push him he seems like less of a rider to me. Hell I have even ran out of gas before on my ninja 250 at speed and had to pull over on the highway with cars whizzing by at 75mph and practically lay the bike on the side to get the gas from the right side of the tank to the left side so I could make it to a station.
-
I have ridden my bike till it "died" twice now at high way speeds and both without warning.
Even if his producers did push him he seems like less of a rider to me.
I think that's pretty unfair. Emergency situations and vehicle faults are one thing. This was absolutely voluntary. It didn't need to happen. And it was on a Los Angeles freeway which scares some riders with fully functioning vehicles at their command. So it's happened to you a couple times, would you choose to do it again? I mean, if you had the choice, would you say, "Yeah, that's a good idea, I think I'll have the bike die on me today."
I'm siding with Wes on this one. That was an asshole move on his producers' parts. It put him and everyone else on that production crew in unnecessary danger as they slowed in fast traffic and stopped on the shoulder of the highway to load up the bike, and they only did it to stoke the fires of range anxiety in the name of entertainment.
-
Ride Apart is correct. Same number of cells, different chemistry. Higher energy density, less power density.
Then what has me further confused is why the "power tank" module does not have the 10% energy density when compared with the 2014 version? ???
As far as Wes goes, I got more upset with him stopping on the freeway and then taking a wiz on to the landscaping, than the fact that the bike ran out of juice. Plus, while I wasn't aware that the producers were pushing him to ride the bike to the limit on the freeway, it certainly seemed to me that he could have just pulled off of the freeway on to an off-ramp when the last bar went south and continue riding along a frontage road until the power ran out. Wouldn't that have been the smart thing to do? That way you could load the bike on to the chase truck without any drama or freeway danger. I doubt that this film was ever planned to be televised on a Fast and Loud reality show. ::) Wes is lucky that he didn't end up as some drunk's hood ornament. ::)
-
Ride Apart is correct. Same number of cells, different chemistry. Higher energy density, less power density.
Then what has me further confused is why the "power tank" module does not have the 10% energy density when compared with the 2014 version? ???
The FX modules and thus the powertank modules use the same batteries as the 2013-14 bikes because two bricks of the more energy dense modules do not have enough power for the FX.
Just to put this into numbers, (and I am literally making up numbers for simplicity so don't quote me on these figures), lets assume each brick of the more power dense MY13-14 modules (PD) is capable of producing 20kW and the more energy dense MY15 modules (ED) are only capable of producing 15kW of power.
An FX motor has 44hp, or about 33kW, so the ED modules would not be able to deliver enough power. The PD modules however can deliver 40kW, about 53hp.
A three-brick S/DS has a 54hp drivetrain. The ED modules can deliver 45kW, about 60hp, more than enough for the drivetrain, and of course the four-brick S/DS has plenty of power too.
The SR only comes in a four-brick configuration so the ED modules can deliver 60kW, about 80hp, again more than enough for the 67hp drivetrain.
So, that is why the individual modules only come in the more power dense configuration. Even though the ED modules would work fine with the power tank application, Zero appears to not be running separate batches for power tank vs. FX.
-
I still, to this very moment, DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some of the range anxiety pushers refuse to acknowledge that it's possible for an ICE vehicle to run out of fuel! If you ignore the gauge, and especially if you push the vehicle well past the point anybody with any sort of a brain would, IT'S GOING TO RUN OUT OF FUEL, whether it runs on electricity, gasoline, diesel, biofuel, vegetable oil, propane, whatever.
How is this an EV fault? Some respond with "I can't recharge an EV anywhere like I can get gas anywhere". But the reality is quite the opposite! There are literally outlets all around you, everywhere you go, far more than there are gas stations, or diesel stations, or propane stations, or whatever your poison of choice. Yes, it may take you longer to recharge than to refill, and yes, it may be a bit sticky rolling up to a mini-mart and bargaining for some juice, but you have to MANAGE your fuel stops with ANY vehicle.
Sorry for ranting, but this "range anxiety" stuff really gets my goat.
-
Thanks Harlan. I am a little less confused that I was previously. But, no doubt, I will remain somewhat confused as I try to come to grips with "energy density" and the ability to provide the necessary power not being the same thing. However, all I really care about is that my bike keeps running and will not leave me stranded like so many of my new motorcycles and scooters did during the 1960's. ::)
Doug, I had "range anxiety" with every new electric motorcycle that I have owned until I got a feeling for their ability to travel a certain distance at a certain speed. After finally getting a feel for the performance of my new bikes and after riding for many miles, I have become less and less concerned about getting back home or to a destination where I can recharge. I think it is just a matter of non-EV owners worrying about something that they don't have any experience with. Once you own an EV you use it within its operating and performance envelope that you will understand through experience, then you will stop worrying and start having more fun. :)
-
I still, to this very moment, DO NOT UNDERSTAND why some of the range anxiety pushers refuse to acknowledge that it's possible for an ICE vehicle to run out of fuel! If you ignore the gauge, and especially if you push the vehicle well past the point anybody with any sort of a brain would, IT'S GOING TO RUN OUT OF FUEL, whether it runs on electricity, gasoline, diesel, biofuel, vegetable oil, propane, whatever.
How is this an EV fault? Some respond with "I can't recharge an EV anywhere like I can get gas anywhere". But the reality is quite the opposite! There are literally outlets all around you, everywhere you go, far more than there are gas stations, or diesel stations, or propane stations, or whatever your poison of choice. Yes, it may take you longer to recharge than to refill, and yes, it may be a bit sticky rolling up to a mini-mart and bargaining for some juice, but you have to MANAGE your fuel stops with ANY vehicle.
Sorry for ranting, but this "range anxiety" stuff really gets my goat.
You grossly underrepresent the time factor on recharging vs refilling. For me, that is the most significant factor in range anxiety. We are not all endowed with several hours to wait to attain the required charge to make the necessary trip if the existing chargevis exhausted. If one gets low om gas, refilling is an act that requires a trivial amount of time to perform.
-
You grossly underrepresent the time factor on recharging vs refilling.
How is "Yes, it may take you longer to recharge than to refill..." underrepresenting anything? That's an outright acknowledgement.
If, as I said, you MANAGE your vehicle and its capabilities, the only time you're ever going to need an emergency charge is if you've miscalculated or things go very badly for you, and you can't quite get home or to your next stop. In a case like that, you're not going to need hours and hours to top off...you're going to need a few minutes' worth to get yourself home. If you ever need to emergency recharge for more than 20 or 30 minutes, that's a complete and utter failure on the part of the rider.
Did you know that it's actually ILLEGAL to run out of fuel in a private airplane? How is it possible we expect every private pilot to manage his affairs, to the point of making it illegal to fail to do so, and yet we freak out that we're going to run out of charge in an EV? It's irrational, and it never has to happen, any more than it's inevitable that you'll run out of fuel when flying your plane.
-
I agree with Doug. You know fairly accurately how far a fully-charged bike will go, so why would you find yourself in a situation where you were trying to go farther? Just plan your trip. If you keep to that simple plan, there is no range anxiety. That applies to charging at your own home or perhaps at work or some other always-there and always- working outlet plus when you don't need the bike for another several hours of course. It would be nice if we had fast-charging capability along with lots and lots of charging stations, but that isn't the situation. I'm not sure range will ever not be an issue. I mean what if your ex-girlfriend asks you to stop by, but you live in California and she lives in Florida? You could drive a gas car or bike, but you would be silly to take an electric car or bike and count on finding charging for such a long trip whether that was every 100 miles or every 300 miles. That problem is not going to be solved no matter how big a battery pack you have. That could change of course, but I don't see it likely to change while we have gas cars, (cheap) gasoline, and gas stations all along the way. You would be smart to just take an ice car. I know most of use have another motorcycle or car besides the Zero. The government would probably have to furnish the infrastructure...maybe at rest stops on the interstate for charging, but even then what if when you get there the dang charger is taken or broken....more anxiety. That ex-girlfriend can't wait for you forever.
-
Okay, one more post and I swear I'll shut up. Sorry for hijacking the thread so badly.
First, Richard, I guess I worked through that before I ever bought the bike. I knew my primary mission for the bike was commuting, so I wanted to be 100% certain that my bike would be able to do ~50 miles mostly freeway driving, day in, day out. I researched, read everything I could find, tried to estimate how much effect my weight would have on the bike (I'm a big guy), asked the dealer and everyone I could think of, and really made myself sure that it would be okay -- worst case, I might wind up riding 60 mph on a southern California freeway, but by hook or by crook, I could make it work. There WAS some anxiety the first time I rode to work, but I figured I could always convince the boss to let me plug in at work if I really needed to. But when I got to work, and was reading 72% charge on the display, I knew I was golden.
dkw12002 has a great point when he says that most of us have other vehicles, and don't rely on the EV as our sole means of getting around. It's very important to acknowledge, as I really think I do, that EVs have their limitations...but then, ALL vehicles do. I can't haul plywood in my 528i, nor could I move (which hopefully I'll never have to do again!). But if either of those needs arises, there are other ways of meeting them, in particular renting a vehicle for a temporary need.
Here's something that happens to me with some frequency: I'm at work, and the girlfriend calls or texts and says "let's get some dinner". I'll tell her, "I'm on the bike, either I can ride home and pick up the car, so I'll be a little late getting there, or you can drive down and meet me at my place." How hard is that to manage? What's all the drama about?
-
... renting a vehicle for a temporary need.
My last post too and then I'll shut up.
Doug, nail hit squarely on the head above. Furthermore, I think one huge thing that EVs need in order to succeed is for people to reassess what qualifies as a "temporary need." I think if most people were to take the time to think about how they use their vehicle, they'd find, as I did, that most of what would cause them range anxiety are those "temporary need" situations. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but most people have daily use profiles that are well within the capability of the current generation of EVs. How often do people really drive more than 100 miles per day? How often do they drive more than 50 miles per day? How often do they take long trips out of town? Given the frequency of these longer trips, would they SAVE money by renting a long-distance capable vehicle instead of maintaining one (including maintenance costs, insurance, depreciation, etc.)? Speaking in terms of cars here as motorcycles are generally pretty expensive to rent, but if I can rent a comfy new mid-size car for $29/day with no mileage charge for my next road trip, what's the point of storing one in the garage and paying insurance and all the rest on it until you need it?
Anyway, for daily use, I've found (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here) that an EV is far and away the best tool for the job. If the general public can be convinced to think for a minute (hah, right), I think many and probably most would come to the same conclusion and realize that range anxiety is a myth.
-
Suggesting perhaps only a minor difference between an operation that takes 5 minutes vs. one that takes 5-8 hours is not a gross misrepresentation? Who's the delusional one?
-
Yet another false equivalence. Pilots also have to file flight plans and thus have to have a fixed starting and ending point. They have to buffer their trips on both ends to handle contingencies. These time allowances are not free, hell, they're not even cheap, and they're DEFINITELY NOT convenient.
One is taking a much more significant risk to their time if there is a failure to properly assess their use of power during a trip, which can happen VERY easily, as power use is greatly impacted by speed traveled. There is a great deal of good reason for people having range anxiety with EVs with the dearth of QC infrastructure that exists in most places in the country today.
-
Wow, Dynomutt, how are you finding so much meaning in my words that simply isn't there? I never said a motorcycle ride was the same as an airplane flight (though I will point out that a flight plan is often not required, especially for a casual VFR flight). All I said was that if we REQUIRE people to manage their affairs, that's proof that it's POSSIBLE to do so. If you can't manage using an EV as a personal transportation device, it's not the vehicle's fault. And again, I never stated that an eight-hour charge is the same as a five-minute fillup. Do you need to take a refresher course in reading comprehension?
And what's with the personal attacks, calling me delusional? You mad, bro?