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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MVetter on April 23, 2019, 02:33:32 AM
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**Update** I think I got the values I was after. I've updated the figures below. Thanks, all!
I wanted to compile a reference list of all the Amp Hours for the various Zero batteries. Not the listed pack kWh or the listed Ah on the sticker, but what the bike actually sees the battery as. I can't trust the sticker per se because the 2.8kWh pack lists 25Ah but the bike reads it as 22. I guess all I really need are the Ah of the various short bricks and can extrapolate from there, but I'd like to put it in table form eventually. For example, I know the following values based on what the bike reads:
2.8kWh short brick = 22Ah
3.3kWh short brick = 26Ah
3.6kWh short brick = 28.5Ah
5.7kWh FX (2x short) = 44Ah
6.5kWh long brick = 52Ah
7.2kWh long brick = 57Ah
9.8kWh monolith = 78Ah (comprised of 3x 3.3kWh short bricks)
11.2kWh monolith = 88Ah
13kWh monolith = 104Ah
14.4kWh monolith = 114Ah
This'll mostly just be a handy reference for me but I thought others might see value in it as well. Thanks!
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Zero gives you about 80% of the ACTUAL capacity and then you get between 80 and 100% of that depending on age and battery wear.
You should use watt hours instead of amp hours for consistency. A amp hour at the end of the pack delivers less energy than a amp hour at the beginning of the pack. A watt hour is a watt hour.
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Watt hours are merely a calculation of Amp hours times nominal voltage. In short, you need Amp hours to calculate Watt hours.
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The real Wh are an integral sum of the instant V*A*dt (dt means mathematical short time increment), therefore the chemistry's discharge voltage curve has an influence on it. And also the discharge rate, ambiant temperature etc.
What is really false is multiplying the Ah by the max voltage (when fully charged). And this is exaxtly what Zero does when advertising a model's capacity.
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Hey guys, just to qualify some stuff here :
A 13kWh pack is reported as a real 104Ah and the pack is 102v nominal
104Ah * 102vdc = 10.608 kWh real useable
now... 104vdc * 116.4 = 12.1056 marketing watts
Then some other numbers get massaged to make a 13kWh marketing number
So the real amp hours and nominal voltage are super important to know. A 13kWh pack is actually a usable 10.6 kWh pack.
Morgan is correct to wonder what the other pack Ah are as it is the only way to calculate what useable capacity is. Not to mention... C rate is based solely and only on Ah...
If you did not think Ah was important before, I hope this will help make it clear that it is truly important. On top of this, it means that knowing the Ah you can calculate battery capacity condition by measuring the watt hours that go in while charging from 95vdc. If 100% on a 13kWh battery is 10.6 kWh then 80% on a 13kWh battery would be 8.1 kWh absorbed.
Ah are important to understand if you are doing anything more than scratching the surface of batteries.
Good luck and happy learning!
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The Ah of the pouches Zero uses from Farasis are already known and listed on the Wiki for different model years. The individual modules are all 28 series count for the last few years.
Energy calculation (marketing): 28 (series count) * 4.2 (full charge voltage) * Capacity of cell in Ah
Energy calculation real: 28 * 3.6 (voltage halfway thru real capacity in watt-hours) * Capacity of cell in Ah
--The 3.6 is what you get if you integrate the discharge (hubert is correct) and pick the voltage at halfway thru the capacity. Why integration? Cuz you need to take voltage and current into account when discharging. I'm not 100% sure it's 3.6 for these cells but should be very close.
I don't think the OP is asking about C rating but actual energy content. And there's a convention for that: it's measured in watt hours for all the reasons explained above. As far as C rating goes the batteries are capped pretty conservatively and under favorable circumstances can charge / discharge at much higher currents than stock nannies allow, with some likely impact on cycle life / capacity.
The numbers above are what the battery can get if not limited and fully charged and drained. Real life Zero does not charge all the way to 4.2 per cell nor do they allow anything close to a full discharge. That's the soft cap giving you ~80% of real capacity, which normal degradation will again modify.
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The Ah of the pouches Zero uses from Farasis are already known and listed on the Wiki for different model years.
I am unable to find any such listing there. Link?
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https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cells
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That appears to be the sticker listings of the batteries which are, again, marketing numbers. There's no need to overcomplicate this. All I'm asking for are the Amp hours as recognized by the bike for various battery packs.
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7.2kWh long brick = 57Ah
2018 FXS
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Perfect! Thank you. This tells me the bikes read the current highest density packs as 28.5Ah, giving a total of a 114Ah monolith.
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My 2018 DS 7.2kWh reads 57Ah too.
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Out of curiosity. How do you guys “read†the Ah value?
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Out of curiosity. How do you guys “read†the Ah value?
I use "zero voltage" app from google play store.
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Out of curiosity. How do you guys “read†the Ah value?
I use "zero voltage" app from google play store.
Ah, that would require an android phone/tablet ;D
unfortunately no such app for iOS yet :(
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The other way is when using a digiNow v2.5 board it reports the Ah of the batteries during charging, which is also useful to know if you see a value that you know is wrong it means the bike could be freaking out.
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On iOS there is the paid (£3.99) app "HM10 Bluetooth Serial Pro" which will allow you to create the profiles for charging using the DigiNow v2.5 and read the stats of the current charging session.
When you use it, you will see it output lines like this...
0295 20:40:44 1164,1164,0,283,26,0,57,0,57,11,12,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
One of those "57" entries is the Ah that are reported by the battery to the DigiNow Controller for my specific bike.
I don't believe there is a similar report produced for the stock charger but all Zero bikes of one model and generation are the same.
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Yeah. The 0 after your first 57 is reserved for the Power Tank. On mine for example you can see, "...104,22,126..." indicating the 104Ah monolith, the 22Ah Power Tank, and then the two added together.
(https://i.imgur.com/Tp97AQ5.png)
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My 2018 DS 7.2kWh reads 57Ah too.
:o
isn't 57 Ah a bit low for a 7.2 kWh battery of 28 cells in series with a combined max voltage of 116 Volt?
57Ah * 116 Volt = 6.6 kWh, not 7.2 kWh ??
for 57Ah and 7.2 kWh, the max voltage would hae to be 126 Volt which it most certainly is NOT. That or the correct Ah for 7.2 kWh and 116 volt should be 62 Ah
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What is the difference between kWhs to charge and kWhs useable?
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Where does the "Zero Voltage" app get the reported Ah? Is this something encoded in firmware or calculated by the bike? I'm wondering why my 13kWh 2016 SR shows about 88Ah as the maximum value, and what I can do about it. Maybe I need to charge until I see 116V, something I haven't done in a long, long, time.
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Amp hours is a value that shouldn't change. Best case scenario your bike is reporting incorrect values which can potentially be fixed with a firmware update. Worst case scenario you've got a problem with your battery. Have you noticed a decrease in range?
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Amp hours is a value that shouldn't change. Best case scenario your bike is reporting incorrect values which can potentially be fixed with a firmware update. Worst case scenario you've got a problem with your battery. Have you noticed a decrease in range?
It's difficult to tell if I've lost range, because even though I don't get the range I did before, the loss is consistent with an increase in my Wh/mi. New traffic-controlled intersections and reprofiled freeway ramps have resulted in more time accelerating. When the bike was new and the streets weren't as crazy, my battery usage was consistent with the advertised range.
I charged to 100% yesterday and saw these numbers on the Zero Voltage app:
Before charging: Capacity (Ah): 23/97, Pack Voltage (V) 100.4
Charging stopped on its own (don't know if this is bike or Diginow commanded): Capacity: 83/90, Pack: 113.5
Keyed on to continue charging until current tailed-off to a few amps: Capacity: 89/89, Pack: 116.7
Edit: This is interesting - after forcing the Diginows to charge until amps dropped to just a few, my Wh/mi on the first 6 mile ride is about the same as when I formerly used the built-in to charge.
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That sounds like there's a good chance you could benefit from a firmware update.
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Out of curiosity. How do you guys “read†the Ah value?
I use "zero voltage" app from google play store.
Ah, that would require an android phone/tablet ;D
unfortunately no such app for iOS yet :(
Remmie, you can see the battery Ah also from CanID 288 byte 5.
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Out of curiosity. How do you guys “read†the Ah value?
I use "zero voltage" app from google play store.
Ah, that would require an android phone/tablet ;D
unfortunately no such app for iOS yet :(
Remmie, you can see the battery Ah also from CanID 288 byte 5.
Aaah that's very helpfull !!, that is 114 with my 2018 SR :)
and I think i found the momentary Ah in CanID 408 byte 5. At 70% SOC it was 87 and later at 76% SOC it was 94. Both of these are higher than SOC% times 114, but they are right on par with a maximum Ah of 124 which is exactly what the Ah should be for a 14.4 kWh pack (14400/116=124).
Maybe the 114 is the not the maximum Ah but the Maximum allowed Charge Current instead. (so about 8% below 1C)
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2016 FXS 11kW, ZF6.5 with 2 battery packs: 52 Ah (i.e. 26 Ah for each pack)
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Thread bump because I just learned more information on how Zero arrives at the listed or, as I refer to them, 'marketing' numbers for battery sizes. Apparently it has something to do with tax codes and listing of maximum battery capacities, but they measure based off the controller's maximum voltage along with another potential max amperage listing from Farasis. In reality about 20-25% of these values are cut down to what the end consumer gets to use.
The max voltage of the SevCon (controller) listed is 119V
The Amp hour value they use for each current gen small brick is 30.25Ah. There are 4 small bricks that make up a monolith, and 2 small bricks in a 'long brick' as seen in the FX platform.
30.25x4 = 121Ah. This is the value they use in marketing math for the monolith
119Vx121Ah=14399kWh =~ 14.4kWh <--- this is the value they stamp on the batteries and advertise.
How do they come up with the nominal measurement? Well, if 119V were the max and 95 is the minimum, that would mean the mid point is 104V.
104Vx121Ah=12584kWh =~ 12.6kWh <--- this is the value they list as nominal.
In reality, the maximum usable voltage for all Zero bikes is 116.4. This means the mid point is 102V. Additionally, the bikes read the current monoliths as 114Ah, made up of 4 small bricks that the bikes read at 28.5Ah each.
102Vx114Ah=11628kWh =~ 11.63kWh <--- this is close to the real world value you will see if you drain the battery empty, fill it up, and measure it with a Kill A Watt meter.
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Thanks, but the mean value between 119V and 95V is 107V (and not 104V).
And when you make a measurement with a Kill A Watt, you get the energy which goes through the Kill A Watt, but it is a little greater than the energy which enters in the battery, since there are some losses in the charger.
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Morgans post is correct, the calculation is based specifically on tax code. The government requires batteries to be rated this way, regardless of how inaccurate it is.
The numbers in the controller are required to be used. 104 is the midpoint and 119 is the max voltage regardless of what reality is.
And a kw meter will not cause an excess of 3kwH of inefficiencies. well unless it catches on fire, I mean 3kwh of wasted heat in 1hr would be a pretty sweet melty plastic fire ;)
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The Wh meter is made to measure the energy that is delivered to the bike.
The losses I am talking about are inside the charger, not inside the Wh meter.
If the charger efficiency is around 95%, you will get a 5% mistake in the energy absorbed by the battery.
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**Update** I think I got the values I was after. I've updated the figures below. Thanks, all!
I wanted to compile a reference list of all the Amp Hours for the various Zero batteries. Not the listed pack kWh or the listed Ah on the sticker, but what the bike actually sees the battery as. I can't trust the sticker per se because the 2.8kWh pack lists 25Ah but the bike reads it as 22. I guess all I really need are the Ah of the various short bricks and can extrapolate from there, but I'd like to put it in table form eventually. For example, I know the following values based on what the bike reads:
2.8kWh short brick = 22Ah
3.3kWh short brick = 26Ah
3.6kWh short brick = 28.5Ah
5.7kWh FX (2x short) = 44Ah
6.5kWh long brick = 52Ah
7.2kWh long brick = 57Ah
9.8kWh monolith = 78Ah (comprised of 3x 3.3kWh short bricks)
11.2kWh monolith = 88Ah
13kWh monolith = 104Ah
14.4kWh monolith = 114Ah
This'll mostly just be a handy reference for me but I thought others might see value in it as well. Thanks!
Which one is ZF11.4?
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When the Zero app was showing more information, here is what it said for my fully charged Zero S with Power Tank: 15.132 kWh, 132 amp-hours, 116 volts. As you know Zero claims a nominal capacity of 16.6 kWh for this configuration of the 2018 Zero S. I think my bike has the previous year's PT. I believe the 2019 Zero S has an updated PT and has a slightly larger capacity.