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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: zerofan on May 29, 2011, 11:19:17 AM
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New Zero S owner here. Thrilled with the bike. Brilliant. ;D
Is there any way to give it more off the line acceleration? Plenty of oomph after 20MPH but I get beat out by Toyota Corolas when lights turn green. :-[
Any software adjustments? Thanks!
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I agree. Love the acceleration from 20 to 65, but that first 20 is a bit timid. Otherwise the bike is perfect for my needs. I ride 20 miles round trip work and it does this perfectly.
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I have the DS, but same issue. As far as I've heard it has been dumbed down from the 2010 model because people were hurting themselves....... When I got it I was expecting the same or more performance than last year's model, not less. >:(
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I've got the 2010, I can't imagine how anyone could hurt themselves due to the "snappyness" off the line. It's very very mild. I often demonstrate to people how mild it is by snapping the throttle wide open and back again while sitting there talking to them. It only moves forward very slightlly and not quickly at all. I hold it in position with my toes on the ground. Then I usually demo riding it around them at full lock. The low speed throttle is so well controlled that low speed stuff is absurdly easy.
I compare it to my KTM 200 where doing something equivalent (snapping the throttle full open and back) in 3rd gear will put you (has put me) on your arse.
=:)
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The resolution is to adjust the controller. That's what dictates a lot what happens between your motor, battery, charger, throttle, etc. The problem with Zero is that they definitely used a dumbed up plug and play controller that cannot be adjusted. You could always look at replacing the controller. I'm not sure of anyone that has done that though.
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So the controller has been locked somehow? I wonder how...
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On the 2010S you can play with the controller. plug in the alltrax software and start adjusting the curve. It is tricky though and you might compromise the overall performance balance of battery life, top speed etc...
how about a different sprocket ? - ideally at the rear to avoid to much loading on the motor or so ?
I tried a different sprocket and the of the line speed was improved. top speed down by a couple of miles though.
cheers
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Have you actually looked into changing the curve? Is it easy to save a backup of the original settings? Can you view the settings without changing them?
And I got a 2011, so is mine blocked then?
Also if you change the sprocket to get better acceleration you are using more power, the same as if you changed the curve. Change the curve and you get the better acceleration and keep the top speed, plus there are no parts to buy.
Might be a good idea to look into what the chain/belt and sprockets are rated for, torque wise.
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Have you actually looked into changing the curve? Is it easy to save a backup of the original settings? Can you view the settings without changing them?
I have ridden a 2010 S that has had some mods. Of the line acceleration slightly improved - overall curve not the best. Sounds to me a tweaky business as the bike needs to be running on stand when adjusting the curve or so...
And I got a 2011, so is mine blocked then?
Also if you change the sprocket to get better acceleration you are using more power, the same as if you changed the curve. Change the curve and you get the better acceleration and keep the top speed, plus there are no parts to buy.
Might be a good idea to look into what the chain/belt and sprockets are rated for, torque wise.
On the other hand I tried other sprockets and it shows improvement. Top end speed down by 5 miles though. Does anyone know or has now got experience with 2011 ? Doesn't the 2011 have a "sports" and "eco" mode ?
2011 blocked ? Does this mean no plug to access the electronics ? On any ICE one can tune the performance - hope on the Zero's we get the equivalent possibilities - happy even to work with expert support / dealers if to sensitive.
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The bike is mapped and "factory locked" on the alltrax controller for economy and safety
They even elongated the swingarm to prevent wheelies
You can just substitute the controller to a programmable one but it is quite expensive
any messing about will void your warranty so be warned
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The bike is mapped and "factory locked" on the alltrax controller for economy and safety
Hi ZAPmc or all. what does it mean locked ? The product info says one can get into it with USB or serial - so what we should be able to ? The off the line speed really needs a slight boost !
T
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I've just bought a 2012 model S/ZF6. Does anyone already modified the controller settings of these bikes?
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Modifying the sevcon motor controllers for the 2012 bikes requires some specialized software, a CAN adapter, and a password to unlock the controller.
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I have playes with many controllers in teh past years, just like the Infineon, kelly and alltrax. I have looked to the factory parameters of my DS2011 and the max current is set to 90% current wich is 90% of the 500A controller max curent. It's 450A, exactly what is the max that the agni mbrushed motor can take.
But there is two current sensor on this motorcycle. one on the controller output and one on the battery output. and they are connected to the "ECU" ( master control box of the zero).
On the alltrax, the throttle curves affect how the controller outputs power (y axis) as you progress through the throttle (x axis), But my guess is that the throttle signal from the magura throttle grip does NOT connect directly to the controller. It goes first to the ECU, than the ecu can overide the signal or not depending on the battery conditions, current demand and motor or battery temperature., so if you apply full throttle, the full throttle signal will only be present on the controller throttle input IF none of these conditions are activated ( the system condition are good)
I would like to try to add a switch that will bypass the ECU so when i flip the switch, the throttle signal will go directly to the controller input so the full power will occur from 0MPH to 20MPH. But this will also bypass the safety protections for the bike components as well.
I should receive my cycle analyst performances display next week and will connect it to my DS, so i will monitor everything including the power in kW, voltage, current, speed etc.
that should help to measure the improovement i can make.
Also the 1/2 speed option is check on the controller factory program wich make me think that if the battery goes low, the low powerlimit protection is probably trigging this option thru the connector
Doc
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=81853)
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=81855)
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Hi Doc ;=)
I can't wait how it will work. Unfortunately I'm still waiting my DS 2012 will arrive. But I also got the hint of Harlan, that the "ECU" will be the limiting part.
I plan to cut the line between ECU to Sevcon Controller, but still let the signal go to the ECU.
A "split" that allows the signal to bypass the ECU direct to the Sevcon Controller, but still give all information to the ECU.
What do you thing?
At the moment I can't put hands on it, but when the bike arrives I will have a look with my scope how the timing difference between throttle and ECU out is (and what the levels are).
Maybe a direct bypass will be to aggressive and one has to filter the signal with a small micro.
Best solution: Zero would allow an update to make the low speed acceleration a bit better.
Also would like to change the regenerative braking (2012), but that is an other topic.
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I will be coming out with a mod for both 2011 and 2012 with the help of Hollywood Electrics soon that you will be able to plug directly into the bike to get some tweaked performance through the ECU/MBB.
I want to test the device on the track first to ensure it is high performance before I release it. I will be keeping everyone updated. If I were to do a kickstarter on this do you think people would support it?
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Now that is what my bike needs - a kickstarter! ;D
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Sign me up : )
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Cool, a Power Commander for Zeros :)
If it'll give me sport performance with eco regen, I'm down.
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Now that is what my bike needs - a kickstarter! ;D
When I went and picked up my bike from the dealer Saturday, he showed ma a toy throttle assembly that generated an "engine rumble" when you twisted the grip. It was some sort of flywheel-driven noise generator, and if it hadn't been teal and pink, I would have been investigating how to install it on my left grip :)
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BTW guys lol, while I think a kick starter is a cool idea,
I was actually referring to :
http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/technology?ref=sidebar (http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/technology?ref=sidebar)
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Yeah, kickstarter.com is a pretty cool idea. Only problem is the wait. I'm waiting on a couple of things I donated to, in both cases for months. Not unexpected, though; I understand how it works.
On another topic, I got a compliment on the DS from a young man, long-time dirt biker, even before I told him it was electric. "Thing looks like a BEAST", he said. Guess that means I need to go find a dirt track and see what she'll do :)
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Clic, the sport performance with eco regen is one of the mods I did the second day I got the bike. Seems common sense it should be this way from Zero. Unplug the two wires from underneath the eco/sport switch. doesn't matter what position the switch is in, it will now be in sport mode 100% of the time. I opened up the left handle bar assembly and connected the wires to the horn button which I removed (ive been riding almost every day for 15 years and the horn is only to piss someone off, I never depend on it and so rely on maneuvering out of the way of an idiot instead of thinking a horn might get his attention and not make him panic. Just my preference. And while you're in there, clip the high beam headlight wire to the switch. Now during the day when you want to save 55 watts or 110 watt hours. If riding for 2 hours at 45 mph on a 7.7kwh usable pack and trying to achieve 90 miles. the headlight will steal 1.5 miles from you. This way you flip it to high beam and it's off during the day (the little light is still on). At night you flip it down to low beam and it comes on. When you want high beam you pull the finger trigger. That simple.
Oh and when you want to slow down now you have 3 levels of regen. stage one you let the throttle go, two you press the horn button, and three you barely squeeze the brakes. I'm convinced this adds more regen. Now when I stop I press the horn button automatically with my thumb unless i want to coast down slowly.
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Hum, interesting.
I strongly suspect as well that the foot brake adds a small amount of regen in the initial travel from neutral. I may be able to definitively say shortly..
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Zero's literature says that applying the brakes doubles the regen drag for each power mode. But, try as I can, I just don't feel it when I lightly apply either the front or rear brake or both brakes at the same time. My GPR-S would activate its regen strongly when you touched either brake enough to light up the brake light. Maybe Zero's system uses hydraulic pressure to activate a separate switch, other than the brake light, but if it does it must take a lot of pressure on the brake pedal and I have no idea where that switch might be.
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It does take a surprising amount of brake pressure to activate the brake light on my DS, more on the rear than the front. The rear brake does indeed do it with a pressure switch; I don't think it does on the front, but I haven't looked closely. Like you, though, I don't feel additional regen when I activate either brake. May have to do some testing to see.
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Clic, the sport performance with eco regen is one of the mods I did the second day I got the bike. Seems common sense it should be this way from Zero. Unplug the two wires from underneath the eco/sport switch. doesn't matter what position the switch is in, it will now be in sport mode 100% of the time. I opened up the left handle bar assembly and connected the wires to the horn button which I removed (ive been riding almost every day for 15 years and the horn is only to piss someone off, I never depend on it and so rely on maneuvering out of the way of an idiot instead of thinking a horn might get his attention and not make him panic. Just my preference. And while you're in there, clip the high beam headlight wire to the switch. Now during the day when you want to save 55 watts or 110 watt hours. If riding for 2 hours at 45 mph on a 7.7kwh usable pack and trying to achieve 90 miles. the headlight will steal 1.5 miles from you. This way you flip it to high beam and it's off during the day (the little light is still on). At night you flip it down to low beam and it comes on. When you want high beam you pull the finger trigger. That simple.
Oh and when you want to slow down now you have 3 levels of regen. stage one you let the throttle go, two you press the horn button, and three you barely squeeze the brakes. I'm convinced this adds more regen. Now when I stop I press the horn button automatically with my thumb unless i want to coast down slowly.
Interesting ideas here, though I think the horn must work for the bike to pass inspection here in Texas. It could be switched back easily enough, though.
The other mod I'd make is to have the brake light come on when the (eco mode) regen was activated. It's a significant-enough deceleration that I always look behind me to check for cars before I get ready to slow down or stop with regen only.
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Zero's literature says that applying the brakes doubles the regen drag for each power mode. But, try as I can, I just don't feel it when I lightly apply either the front or rear brake or both brakes at the same time.
Call me crazy, but on my bike I can clearly tell. With the throttle at 0%, all you have to do is lightly tap the brake and the drag noticeably increases and stays increased until the throttle moves off 0%.
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Call me crazy, but on my bike I can clearly tell. With the throttle at 0%, all you have to do is lightly tap the brake and the drag noticeably increases and stays increased until the throttle moves off 0%.
My DS drags way more after just touching the front brake lightly. Not sure about the rear brake but I think it works for it, too although it takes more pressure to activate it than the front brake.
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Tried this myself tonight, on the ride home, in the empty street in front of my house. When I pulled the front brake just enough to activate the light, I felt some additional deceleration, maybe 1/3 again what I was getting from eco-mode regen when the throttle was closed. At rest, I pulled the brake in the same amount and pushed the bike to try and gauge how much the front brake was actually grabbing; it didn't seem like much, not enough to explain the deceleration.
So yes, I'd have to concede that you get some more regen when the brakes are applied. But it's not huge. Does give me some future modding ideas, though.
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I agree. Love the acceleration from 20 to 65, but that first 20 is a bit timid. Otherwise the bike is perfect for my needs. I ride 20 miles round trip work and it does this perfectly.
I rode a 2012 DS last week. In sport mode it was plenty quick off the line. Do you mean in econ mode?
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Tried this myself tonight, on the ride home, in the empty street in front of my house. When I pulled the front brake just enough to activate the light, I felt some additional deceleration, maybe 1/3 again what I was getting from eco-mode regen when the throttle was closed. At rest, I pulled the brake in the same amount and pushed the bike to try and gauge how much the front brake was actually grabbing; it didn't seem like much, not enough to explain the deceleration.
So yes, I'd have to concede that you get some more regen when the brakes are applied. But it's not huge. Does give me some future modding ideas, though.
I am just curious because there has been so much speculation about this: Why not just email zero and ask if it does? Do you think they are shy about answering this for competitive reasons?
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Tried this myself tonight, on the ride home, in the empty street in front of my house. When I pulled the front brake just enough to activate the light, I felt some additional deceleration, maybe 1/3 again what I was getting from eco-mode regen when the throttle was closed. At rest, I pulled the brake in the same amount and pushed the bike to try and gauge how much the front brake was actually grabbing; it didn't seem like much, not enough to explain the deceleration.
So yes, I'd have to concede that you get some more regen when the brakes are applied. But it's not huge. Does give me some future modding ideas, though.
I am just curious because there has been so much speculation about this: Why not just email zero and ask if it does? Do you think they are shy about answering this for competitive reasons?
Here are the difference in the controller parameters between Eco/Sport mode. These are the actual values, not speculation.
Sport
Maximum Torque 100%
Regen on closed throttle 7%
Regen on braking 15%
Maximum Speed 6300rpm
Eco
Maximum Torque 70%
Regen on closed throttle 30% 15%
Regen on braking 30% 25%
Maximum Speed 5300rpm
Hope that answers your questions.
Edit: Sorry, I made a mistake on the regen values in Eco mode.
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Thanks, Harlan! You're always a fount of Zero information.
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Now that is interesting. In Eco mode there is no increase in regen when activating the brakes.
I might add that I once had my bike up to an indicated 79 mph up a 6% freeway grade in Eco mode (which should have been about 5260 rpm). On the same day, up the same hill, I was able to hit 81 mph in Sport mode. Both rides were against a stiff wind.
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New Zero S owner here. Thrilled with the bike. Brilliant. ;D
Is there any way to give it more off the line acceleration? Plenty of oomph after 20MPH but I get beat out by Toyota Corolas when lights turn green. :-[
Any software adjustments? Thanks!
A 'hardware' tweak would be the DS front sprocket, which would change your drive ratio from 4.71 to 5.28. I'm looking for an "S" sprocket for my DS-- let's make a deal!
[see the "Glitch" thread;]