Wow the line up is great this coming year! Where as before I was only considering a DS in the 2012's, the large FX looks attractive in the 2013's too! Now I have a choice to make! ;D Great improvements all around. I am a bit disappointed thought that they didn't have a J1772 option as I have a 240V j1772 charger in my garage. CHAdeMO is something I don't see coming to my area anytime soon and J1772 is already an accepted standard. CHAdeMO is faster and better than J1772 for sure but I still think J1772 is a better option until more CHAdeMO stations arrive.
Thanks ryan, what I was hoping for was a j1772 port to bypass the on board charger so I could quick charge from my level 2 J1772 that I have in my garage for my car already. I figure for general charging/standby plug-in I would just use the regular on board charger but if I wanted a quick charge one Saturday afternoon I could use my L2 J1772. Here's to hoping they make it an accessory option in the future.
... J1772 relies on an onboard charger in all applications. Its just that with cars, it's not much of a compromise to install a larger, level 2 charger.
Sorry to go against the grain, but I don't see much change here.
Wow the line up is great this coming year! Where as before I was only considering a DS in the 2012's, the large FX looks attractive in the 2013's too! Now I have a choice to make! ;D Great improvements all around. I am a bit disappointed thought that they didn't have a J1772 option as I have a 240V j1772 charger in my garage. CHAdeMO is something I don't see coming to my area anytime soon and J1772 is already an accepted standard. CHAdeMO is faster and better than J1772 for sure but I still think J1772 is a better option until more CHAdeMO stations arrive.Probably they will have the same J1772 plug option that the 2012 bikes have. Onboard charger is around 1.5 kW, small improvement from 2012 but 240V doesn't improve charge times at all.
After my initial regret of not being in line to get the newer, faster, sleeker, more powerful '13 S, I am still quite happy with my '12. Can't help but noticing that they jacked up the price a couple of grand. My ZF6 has all the power and range I need.Two points of comparison:
Looking at a map there is not a single CHAdeMO charging location on the entire east coast of the US!
Looking at a map there is not a single CHAdeMO charging location on the entire east coast of the US!
... J1772 relies on an onboard charger in all applications. Its just that with cars, it's not much of a compromise to install a larger, level 2 charger.
I did not realize that. I thought that the electronics for the charger were in the head units that came with L1 and L2 J1772 cords. I guess that is just the circuit safety electronics in there. There definitely more room in a car for bulky charging hardware. Well charge times weren't that bad on the bikes anyways...
The ChaDeMo charging is the game-changer. There is simply no comparison to charging from 240V, 30A to 480V, 125A. If you stop at a ChaDeMo charger it will be like stopping for gas.
Sorry to go against the grain, but I don't see much change here.
Almost double the power
~50% more energy
Standard wheel sizes
Better aesthetics
J1772 and Chademo charging
Well, you have to admit that Brammo has some nice looking girls to keep you entertained while waiting for the Empulse to arrive. ;)
With a .. 180 lb rider (me), we have the following power/weight ratios:
2012 S ZF9 17.9 lbs/hp (geared for 88 mph top speed) .. ~10s 0-60
2013 FX ZF5.7 10.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed) .. ~5.5s 0-60
2013 S ZF8.5 9.8 lbs/hp (geared for 95 mph top speed) .. ~5.9s 0-60
2013 MX ZF5.7 8.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed.. yow!) .. ~4.4s 0-60
Estimated 0-60 times assuming motor has a similar torque curve to the 2012 motor. Probably a bad assumption - but there you go. I would be a little surprised if the FX pulled 4s 0-60 .. MX maybe. Still hugely faster than the 2012 bikes.
New lineup = ;D ;D ;D
For all you 2012 buyers; IF you had waited for the 2013's, what would you have got instead?
I'm guessing most of the SZF9 riders would go the SZF11.4
I would clearly have gone with the XU ZF 5.7 -- more like my 12SZF6 but better and cheaper.
One interesting thing I noted was the new sealed motors, unlike the open ones on the 2012s. I wonder if Zero foresees that open style being a problem long term.
New lineup = ;D ;D ;D
For all you 2012 buyers; IF you had waited for the 2013's, what would you have got instead?
I'm guessing most of the SZF9 riders would go the SZF11.4
Anyone else wondering what the ZF11.4 with a size 6 controller would be like? I know i am.
New lineup = ;D ;D ;D
For all you 2012 buyers; IF you had waited for the 2013's, what would you have got instead?
I'm guessing most of the SZF9 riders would go the SZF11.4
I would clearly have gone with the XU ZF 5.7 -- more like my 12SZF6 but better and cheaper.
I wonder if it would it be feasible to charge the battery modules for the FX at a desk on the second floor of an office?
Forks and shocks remain Fast Ace. It does have a bigger rear shock and the front forks are reworked.hi, great u ordered one ! do u ride one now ? :)
Passenger pegs are now standard.
I got this information from Josh over at Hollywood Electrics when I placed my order for one on Tuesday. ;D
Jose Soriano
They replaced the brakes (Nissin units), wouldn't be surprised if they replaced the forks as well. Zero seems to be on a slow but gradual progression away from its lightweight MTB roots - which is fine by me.
Zero will not reveal what’s in its consumer product development pipeline without ensuring that those products will be moved rapidly into customers’ hands.
I wonder if it would it be feasible to charge the battery modules for the FX at a desk on the second floor of an office?
The ZF-2.8 power pack should be about 42 lbs or so (FX-5.7 weight 275 lb, FX-2.8 233 lb), as long as you can bring that with you to the 2nd floor why not?
Regarding the smartphone app you will be able to limit top speed and configure how torque comes on as well as modes of regenerative braking. With all of these new features I would take a fairly educated guess that by your estimate of the FX being on the edge of the range you will easily be able to reach your destination by mapping your eco mode for a lower top speed and torque and rate of regeneration.
hi, great u ordered one ! do u ride one now ? :)
Brammo says they will begin deliveries in October...You forgot to mention what year; ups :-X
Hello!
New here but recognise some of the names from the Brammo and Elmoto forums!
Just placed an order for a 2013 Zero S ready February! ;D
I think the 2013 lineup for Zero looks great and I'm impressed by the fact that they appeared without extreme hype. I test rode a 2012 S but was a bit disappointed by the acceleration curve(I now know it can be modified) and range. The 2013 specifications have changed enough that I had to place an order. I was holding out for an Empulse but the S looks better IMHO and will be perfect for my commute.
Hello!
New here but recognise some of the names from the Brammo and Elmoto forums!
Just placed an order for a 2013 Zero S ready February! ;D
I think the 2013 lineup for Zero looks great and I'm impressed by the fact that they appeared without extreme hype. I test rode a 2012 S but was a bit disappointed by the acceleration curve(I now know it can be modified) and range. The 2013 specifications have changed enough that I had to place an order. I was holding out for an Empulse but the S looks better IMHO and will be perfect for my commute.
Where did you see out in person?
Jose Soriano
Where did you see out in person?
Jose Soriano
Well, I might ride my ICE Yamaha TW200 conversion trike in dirt again, because I don't have an electric trike.
I started a thread about the 2013 Zero line and provided a link to their "teaser" site on my BMW motorcycle forum - figuring that anyone that can afford a BMW motorcycle can likely also afford a Zero. ;)if u continue the good work u r in for a bonus or a free upgrade ! :)
I was surprised at the positive response that my posts received. I got 10 "likes", the most I can ever recall for one of my threads. I received a couple of "snide" comments about my experience being filmed for Zero's owner's experiences section of their website, but I responded with some level and honest comments that didn't generate any further response. So I think I shut up those two. ;D
It may not have a clutch lever, but I think I spotted some vitriol on it.
It has the battery cells of the MotoCzysz, the MT-03 headlight of the Zero, and the "tank" of the Empulse. Whose work is this?
we Brits aren't known for design prowess, are we?
Well i have to say i'm a little miffed as my ZF9 limited edition is due to arrive in a crate from Belgium next week. Having said that the 2013 range looks great and i imagine in the future it would be relatively simple to 'upgrade' to 2013 parts without having to buy a whole new bike.
Anyone else wondering what the ZF11.4 with a size 6 controller would be like? I know i am.
I learned a long time ago never buy something just before a product year/model change and never look at the new line up in the year after buying something. You'll only regret what you were happy to have before. Go enjoy your 2012 models and come back to looking at the new features in the fall of 2014. If trends continue, Zero will have advanced so much ranges will be infinite and the bikes will have a zero point energy source!! LOL ;D
I figure all I have to do is avoid test-riding the new models. That way, I'll continue to be happy with the one I have Smiley
However, it would be nice if the designers thought about the extra money they could make selling the next gen powertrain for 'old' model owners to fit who aren't content with a slower shorter range bike because they can't afford 10k every year for an upgrade.
I agree that Zero will eventually need to settle down and develop their models once the technology matures. But I think they have to continue to improve the models every year as long as that can be done. That is the only way to advance the the performance of electric motorcycles and make them more desirable to future customers. I also understand that current customers will be left in the dust. But I don't see any other way for them to proceed, if we want the best performance available as soon as possible. In my case my 2012 ZF9 Zero S meets my transportation requirements, no matter how good the new models are. Fortunately, I can afford to buy a new one and take a loss on my current bike if I had to. I think this is just something that we are going to have to live with for a few years. The alternative is to have a company like Brammo that fully develops the technology for several years before placing their models on sale to the public. But that has its flaws, too. Just pick your poison.
But unlike computers, the environment they're being used in - software applications vs road applications - is not necessarily becoming more intense each year.
But unlike computers, the environment they're being used in - software applications vs road applications - is not necessarily becoming more intense each year.
Also a good point. However, did all computer early adopters upgrade because they needed to run more complicated software or for other reasons ie keeping up with the Jones', convenience, not wanting the hassle of archiving stuff onto floppy, prettier graphics? I think it's less about the environment(no pun intended) and more about what else is available for similar purchase/running cost.
Why would anybody want a modern sport bike unless they had a licence losing fettish? And yet after mopeds and 125s the biggest selling big engine bikes in the UK for 2011 were the Fireblade and BMW GS. What environment are these riders in - one where speed limits are reduced and speed bumps have increased?
I think the point where electric bike sales will overtake ICE equivalents will be when the performance surpasses that of the ICE options. Not logical, but how many sport bike sales are logical decisions?
Here is one big difference. AT&T charges me $200 every two years to move to the latest phone.... They hide the true cost of ownership.
Zero can improve the cost of ownership equation if they want. The dealers will see the wholesale to resale spread while the resale number will be higher due to Zero's participation.
Lastly, I checked on the battery for my 9DS before I bought the bike. Dealer $3950 ish, retail $4800 ish. The CoGS are less than you have estimated. I suspect the overhead is greater (small volume applied to a necessary infrastructure)
My first "computer" was an English-made Sinclair that I bought in 1978. It used a 3" reel-to-reel tape recorder as a storage device and a TV as a monitor. It was about the size of a soft-bound novel, as I recall. The only program that I had was an airplane flight simulator that had a black and white screen. I don't believe that it had a keyboard. My memory is kind of fuzzy after all these years. I do know that I lost interest in the thing after a few months and junked it as it just didn't to much, since there were very few programs written for the device and without a keyboard or printer you couldn't even use it as a word processor.
Here is one big difference. AT&T charges me $200 every two years to move to the latest phone.... They hide the true cost of ownership.
Zero can improve the cost of ownership equation if they want. The dealers will see the wholesale to resale spread while the resale number will be higher due to Zero's participation.
Lastly, I checked on the battery for my 9DS before I bought the bike. Dealer $3950 ish, retail $4800 ish. The CoGS are less than you have estimated. I suspect the overhead is greater (small volume applied to a necessary infrastructure)
No they can't. They don't have enough gross margin to meaningfully subsidize upgrades. Even if you're right and GOGs is $9,000 and GM is $5,000, they still need to give the dealers 15% and the total gross profit without cost of sales, G&A, etc. (fully loaded cost) is less than the depreciation on the bike in one year. They could maybe shell out $1,000 to soften the $4,000 depreciation hit but I think they are better off putting it toward R&D and making the bike better and getting the word out and getting new customers. Later once the company is established and has a large installed base then it makes sense to spend on upgrades, maybe. No ICE maker offers upgrade pricing that I'm aware of. At the point the company has to drive hard toward profitability in the company's investor's timeframe, which I'm guessing is 2 - 3 years. Spending on upgrades to a small installed base won't help get them there.
Here is one big difference. AT&T charges me $200 every two years to move to the latest phone.... They hide the true cost of ownership.
Zero can improve the cost of ownership equation if they want. The dealers will see the wholesale to resale spread while the resale number will be higher due to Zero's participation.
Lastly, I checked on the battery for my 9DS before I bought the bike. Dealer $3950 ish, retail $4800 ish. The CoGS are less than you have estimated. I suspect the overhead is greater (small volume applied to a necessary infrastructure)
No they can't. They don't have enough gross margin to meaningfully subsidize upgrades. Even if you're right and GOGs is $9,000 and GM is $5,000, they still need to give the dealers 15% and the total gross profit without cost of sales, G&A, etc. (fully loaded cost) is less than the depreciation on the bike in one year. They could maybe shell out $1,000 to soften the $4,000 depreciation hit but I think they are better off putting it toward R&D and making the bike better and getting the word out and getting new customers. Later once the company is established and has a large installed base then it makes sense to spend on upgrades, maybe. No ICE maker offers upgrade pricing that I'm aware of. At the point the company has to drive hard toward profitability in the company's investor's timeframe, which I'm guessing is 2 - 3 years. Spending on upgrades to a small installed base won't help get them there.
I would not expect Zero to provide cash incentives to retain customers as there is no one capable of poaching their customers. There is simply not a better option out there.
My point was that Zero can affect the total cost of ownership by taking an active roll in generating and facilitating a secondary market. My local BMW dealership will take my trade in (at wholesale with a small bump from time to time to keep me coming back) when I "upgrade" to a newer car. The dealer then goes through the car and, if it meets their quality standards, presents it on their lot as certified pre-owned. There is no better place to move a used BMW then from the CPO lot at a dealer. Those that want a quality used car will go there first while those that can not quite get the scratch together for a new car can be moved to pre-owned.
Some owners will sell their cars on the private market for a retail'ish number. I've done that from time to time but normally give up the small gain once the trade in sales tax credit is taken into account for the ease of simply giving the dealer my car back in a single transaction. I am suggesting Zero follow this model. More revenue will go through each dealer (new and pre-owned sales) and more Zero product will make it to those not well healed enough just yet to buy new. Those customers will have a relationship with Zero and Zero can follow though with the warranty in addition to opening up sales opportunities for extended warranties and the like. Existing Zero customers will get the benefit of better resale value which lowers total cost of ownership; this is also a plus for Zero.
No one but Zero can do this. If they choose not to, they run the risk of their product appearing overpriced given its relative value on the secondary market. There will always be people out there buying the bikes at the current and MY13 pricing. The question for me is what does it take to get beyond those customers?
When I told my wife that I had decided to buy the 2012 DS model even though my 2010 DS wasn't even a full two years old yet, she said; "well you know they will keep imroving them, why not wait until some future year's models come out. My reply; "I'm 77 years old. How many years should I wait to start riding an improved version"? Her answer; "oh".
Trikester
BTW - Spent today cleaning out the carb on my Yamaha conversion trike. Ugg! :(
A local Honda car dealer had one of those on display, as a attention getter, a couple of years ago. I very much wanted to see the engine but the guy couldn't get the hood open for some unknown reason :'(
Trikester
Thovas and I (Ed Cook) just got back from the Zero dealer meeting. We got to ride all the new 2013s....they are AWESOME!!!
100% waterproof, as they said one big fleet customer is requiring that they can run submerged in standing water in so many feet of water. They better waterproofed lots of other areas on the bikes too.
Thanks for that info, Ed. Do you think Zero is planning to offer factory discounts on the leftover 2012 models? Realistically, the difference in performance between a 2013 and 2012 would be slightly less important to me since I already have a fast bike. If the price difference is just a couple thousand, I'd go with the 2013, but at a discount of $3000 or more, the 2012 would start to look good.
I'll bet there will be a few used MY12s available Smiley or at least one.
Thanks for that info, Ed. Do you think Zero is planning to offer factory discounts on the leftover 2012 models? Realistically, the difference in performance between a 2013 and 2012 would be slightly less important to me since I already have a fast bike. If the price difference is just a couple thousand, I'd go with the 2013, but at a discount of $3000 or more, the 2012 would start to look good.