ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Jarrett on June 23, 2019, 02:37:27 AM
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Last week, I picked up the last DSR made in 2019 and opted for a Power Tank to be installed in it for additional range. Where I live, charging stations haven't made it yet. I rode the bike home 52 miles from the dealership and parked it feeling like I had made a mistake with the purchase. Initially, I called the dealer to talk about returning it, but eventually decided to go ahead and keep it.
At first, I was underwhelmed with the bike. From reading here and ZMOG, I thought it was going to be this torque monster the way people talk about it, but it doesn't feel excessive at all. I can't get the rear wheel to spin on pavement no matter what I try. It feels a little sluggish in Sport mode from 0-30, but after that it feels pretty good. I've got another ICE bike that claims 93 ft-lbs. of torque and it accelerates quicker than the DSR and feels more aggressive to ride. I just expected more out of 116 ft-lbs. of torque. It's also more top heavy than I was expecting with the Power Tank installed. Initially pretty off putting, but you get used to dealing with it.
Once I decided to keep it, I started riding it a bit and it started growing on me. I did a dual sport ride on it this morning. 133 miles total at 34mph with about 50/50 dirt. I was happy with the range. I think I could have gotten 150 miles, but I got bored and sped up at the end. The FX will only go about 50 miles at those speeds, so all of that extra range was nice. The DSR is surprisingly nimble in technical off pavement spots, not to mention a blast in the paved twisties.
When I got home from the ride, I immediately jumped on my daughter's NC700X DCT and it was night and day difference. Even though the NC is a relatively smooth running ICE bike, it felt like I had jumped on chitty chitty bang bang by comparison. After a 4 hour ride on the DSR, I was immediately hit with all the vibration, noise, heat and lack of torque on the NC700X. Aside from the brakes and ergonomics, the DSR felt like a better bike all around.
The other things that stuck out were vibration and heat. The NC is pretty smooth running ICE bike, compared to doing a few hours on the DSR, it was really shaky. The other thing that surprised me was the heat. I rode all morning in full gear and didn't really get that hot on the DSR, I just didn't think it was that hot outside. Then I jump on the NC, give it a few throttle whacks and all the sudden my legs are hot. Few more minutes that heat is rising up into the saddle and blowing on my chest and I start getting hot for the first time during the whole day.
The DSR is like two bikes in one. Put it in Eco mode and go down some two track and it reminds me of my old CRF250L. Just putts along rolling over everything. Jump on the twisties and put it in Sport mode and all the sudden, its a canyon carver pulling hard out of the corners. Another cool thing, it doesn't drop charge fast after 30% like the FX and you have speed limit power right to the very end. I was doing 60+ mph with like 3% or something.
Today's rides pretty much made the DSR a keeper for me. It's a pricey mofo, but it does some cool things that other bikes can't and I happen to dig those things enough to pay the asking price.
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Zero riders tend to be people who aren't that interested in performance so all the bikes feel ludicrously fast to them. Obviously they're not that fast but the crowd here mostly doesn't know that.
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ICE crowd: My liter bike is faster than that Zero.
Zero rider: Yep. Never said it wasn't.
ICE crowd: My liter bike can go further than yours and fill up faster.
Zero rider: Yep. Never said it couldn't. Of course I'm guessing you don't go that far because being rolled up like an armadillo and humping your gas tank gets old. Plus the heat, noise, and vibrations and looking for cops around every corner gets a little tiring too.
Have a nice day.
Either the feel of electric speaks to you or it doesn't. Gas goes faster and further and the bikes are cheaper .
For now.
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There are a bunch of ultra fast bikes that don't have supersport ergo. Zeros really aren't that fast. I like my FXS because it's stealthy and useful and FUN but even in supermoto terms it's neither quick nor fast.
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I've owned about 20 ice bikes before I got my dsr, mostly supersport and sport touring, but I'm convinced my dsr is the most fun bike I've ever ridden. It's low center of gravity makes it flickable and feel so much lighter than it is, comparable to my klx250, but much quicker. My last sport bike was a zx6 ninja and loved the sound and power, but at 60 years old, I don't miss it. I hope my Zero will last me as long as I do.
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I admit, I got suckered in by the marketing a bit. Zero does talk about their bikes have more torque than liter bikes on their website. That gives one the impression that it stacks up well against one in the acceleration department, but they don't. As mentioned, I have a slow sport touring bike that will walk off and leave my DSR.
But I like the electric ride so much, I keep buying Zero's and riding them as far as I can.
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At least some of Zero's bikes do have more torque than just about any other bike. When measured AT THE MOTOR. But because the ICE bikes REQUIRE gears, they HAVE gears, which gives them an advantaged called "torque multiplication". (It's a real thing, look it up.) So they do put more torque to the ground, and can accelerate harder in the low gears.
So absolute torque isn't the attraction. What is? I think back to my first demo ride, and I think I was expecting a two-wheeled glorified golf cart. The 2013 S that I rode was far more than that, it was a real motorcycle, and not a disappointing one. It had decent running gear, decent brakes, decent suspension...nothing great, but definitely serviceable. But the thing that really caught my attention was it had some SNAP to it. I've driven some golf carts that have some snap, some can even lift the front wheels off the line, but this was smooth, it was controllable, and it extended well through freeway speeds. A beautiful testament to modern motor controllers (I'm an EE and appreciate things like that).
I have almost 47k miles on my bike, and the thing I appreciate most about it is the instantaneous nature of its response. Okay, the torque output can be exceeded with low gearing. Okay, maximum horsepower is fairly limited. But if I'm on the freeway, and decide I want to get around a truck, there are few bikes that can jump as lively as mine. You're NEVER in the wrong gear, it's not possible to be in the wrong gear, and the motor's maximum torque is available literally 100% of the time. ICE bikes will never be able to do that.
Call it what you will. Say it's "just fun to ride". Say it just has a charm all its own. Personally, I don't much care. Just throw a leg over one and see how it feels. I don't believe electric motorcycles are part of a bland, dull, boring future. It's an extremely bright future, and I'm very glad to be an early adopter in it.
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At least some of Zero's bikes do have more torque than just about any other bike. When measured AT THE MOTOR. But because the ICE bikes REQUIRE gears, they HAVE gears, which gives them an advantaged called "torque multiplication". (It's a real thing, look it up.) So they do put more torque to the ground, and can accelerate harder in the low gears.
Yes, they must multiply the torque because there is so little of it over the engine RPM range, unlike an EV that has so much torque over such a wide range that no gears or transmission is necessary.
I have also wondered why my Harley has six gears when three would be enough. My 1971 BMW only has four gears as a little 750 CC bike and I still have confused 3rd gear with fourth gear a few times. It has all the gears it needs--because it has enough torque for only having four gears. Harley has more than enough torque for only needing three gears, IMO.
So is more gears just because so many people think "more is better" so it's good for sales, even though the opposite is true on a touring bike?
Having more gears should be just a way of saying not much torque over a wide range, IMO.
I would actually prefer to only have three gears on my Harley than the six it has. Why shift and wear out the clutch more than necessary?
One of the reasons I ride my Zeros the most is because of that torque at any RPM--with no shifting necessary.
FWIW, I ride my two Zeros more than my other seven bikes combined.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I've owned about 20 ice bikes before I got my dsr, mostly supersport and sport touring, but I'm convinced my dsr is the most fun bike I've ever ridden. It's low center of gravity makes it flickable and feel so much lighter than it is, comparable to my klx250, but much quicker.
I do feel like my FX is the most fun bike I've ridden. It just begs to go hooligan. What I do like about the DSR and FX and generally the Zero bikes I've ridden is that they all feel more powerful than they should at their size, as you mentioned. I don't know of another dual sport bike under 465 lbs that can rip to 90 mph like the DSR can. That's another reason I like it. I suspect if I stripped it down and pulled the Power Tank and charger off the bike, it would be considerably quicker as well.
At least some of Zero's bikes do have more torque than just about any other bike. When measured AT THE MOTOR. But because the ICE bikes REQUIRE gears, they HAVE gears, which gives them an advantaged called "torque multiplication". (It's a real thing, look it up.) So they do put more torque to the ground, and can accelerate harder in the low gears.
I guess that's the semantics that I mean. Yes, it has more torque on paper, but if you line up a DSR and say a SV650 (with a good rider) at a red light and say go, the ICE bike is probably going to take that one, even if the run is just to 70 mph.
And that's only if the DSR has a lot of charge. If you happen to get caught at a red light race with 20% charge left, forget about it. On the other hand, if the SV650 is running low on fuel, its going to be even quicker. But reading Zero's marketing, you wouldn't think that would be the case as they say it has liter bike torque. It may have the torque, but it doesn't have that kind of performance.
So absolute torque isn't the attraction. What is? the thing that really caught my attention was it had some SNAP to it. I have almost 47k miles on my bike, and the thing I appreciate most about it is the instantaneous nature of its response. You're NEVER in the wrong gear, it's not possible to be in the wrong gear, and the motor's maximum torque is available literally 100% of the time. ICE bikes will never be able to do that.
That is a pretty nice feature. Honda's DCT tech closes the gap on that bit, but not all the way.
Call it what you will. Say it's "just fun to ride". Say it just has a charm all its own. Personally, I don't much care. Just throw a leg over one and see how it feels.
Yeah, when you add it all up, I prefer the Zero ride.
So is more gears just because so many people think "more is better" so it's good for sales, even though the opposite is true on a touring bike?
I don't know, but I think it might have something to do with comfort and mileage at highway speeds.
FWIW, I ride my two Zeros more than my other seven bikes combined.
Yes, all of this aside, I ride my Zero's pretty much every day, while the ICE bikes collect dust and wait for the long trips.
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At first, I was underwhelmed with the bike. From reading here and ZMOG, I thought it was going to be this torque monster the way people talk about it, but it doesn't feel excessive at all. I can't get the rear wheel to spin on pavement no matter what I try. It feels a little sluggish in Sport mode from 0-30, but after that it feels pretty good.
Try running it in custom mode with 100% power and torque and 0% motor regen and see how you like it.
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I will try that on my next ride.
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At first, I was underwhelmed with the bike. From reading here and ZMOG, I thought it was going to be this torque monster the way people talk about it, but it doesn't feel excessive at all. I can't get the rear wheel to spin on pavement no matter what I try. It feels a little sluggish in Sport mode from 0-30, but after that it feels pretty good.
Try running it in custom mode with 100% power and torque and 0% motor regen and see how you like it.
That's how I have my custom settings, but I also have brake regen at 100%. I never tale it out of custom mode.
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That's how I have my custom settings, but I also have brake regen at 100%. I never tale it out of custom mode.
Yep, same here.
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0, but after that it feels
Try running it in custom mode with 100% power and torque and 0% motor regen and see how you like it.
Try 20% deceleration regen and see if you notice any difference at all in how well it coasts.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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There are a bunch of ultra fast bikes that don't have supersport ergo. Zeros really aren't that fast. I like my FXS because it's stealthy and useful and FUN but even in supermoto terms it's neither quick nor fast.
You gotta deathify it. A DeathFX can and will shame almost everything in acceleration.
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How bad is the top-heavyness? Worse than a full safari tank?
Are you going to buy a set of 17" wheels for a big supermoto setup?
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There are a bunch of ultra fast bikes that don't have supersport ergo. Zeros really aren't that fast. I like my FXS because it's stealthy and useful and FUN but even in supermoto terms it's neither quick nor fast.
You gotta deathify it. A DeathFX can and will shame almost everything in acceleration.
We might need a deathify fx thread. I'm increasingly interested in eventually doing the swap and have a ton of questions. Does it still have the same 0-30 lull of the SR given its the same powertrain?
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Jesus no. It tries to flip you over backwards from 0-80 unless you actively fight it.
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Is there any way to get rid of the 0-30 lull?
I could use some more acceleration in the DSR if its possible.
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How bad is the top-heavyness? Worse than a full safari tank?
Are you going to buy a set of 17" wheels for a big supermoto setup?
Wasn't sure if you are asking me or Morgan.
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Is there any way to get rid of the 0-30 lull?
I could use some more acceleration in the DSR if its possible.
If you had someone who is trained and knows what they're doing remap the SevCon there is a lot of room for the bike to become peppier. Also, and this should go without saying, battery temperature and SoC will play a big factor into acceleration. If it's cold or low SoC it'll be noticeably sluggish. Worse yet if both.
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Where would I find such people?
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Mvetter is being coy. They need to post some videos of their "death" bikes though to show what can be done. I'm pretty certain death mapping would void your warranty so you'd need to wait a few years.
Jarrett there is or was a "more torque" gearing kit that Zero offered but you lose top speed. Also your a big guy and you can't break the laws of physics so your range and acceleration will be worse than Zero's, and other riders, posted numbers.
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Mvetter is being coy.
That is definitely part of it, but legitimately DO NOT mess with the SevCon if you don't know what you're doing. It is very easy to put values in that will endanger the rider. Example? After 15mph the thing accelerates and doesn't stop regardless of rider input. Or, even simpler, bike does full acceleration backwards.
But yeah here's my SR with some spicy tuning doing 0-60 in 3.00 flat. https://www.instagram.com/p/ByqKeOcnuN2/