ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: guppie70 on July 26, 2016, 06:58:25 PM
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Hi,
This is my first post on this forum that seems to be the largest Zero forum on the internet. I am considering a Zero SR as my daily commuter and hope you guys can give me some advise if the Zero SR 2016 is mature enough to consider...
Some background info:
I am a pretty experienced rider (28 years of active driving) who has always used the motorcycle for commuting. We own a car, but it’s used mainly by my girlfriend and for vacation trips.
Have owned quite some motorcycles (among which a bandit 600, CBR 600/900) and am currently riding a BMW K1300s. I like fast machines, but am mainly using them for commuting.
My girlfriend owns a Harley 883 iron, and she get’s the HOG magazine. There was an interesting article about the Harley LiveWire electric motorcycle and a contest to win a demo ride. Harley invited me for the demo ride (first time I won a prize :-) ) and was blown away by the ride. So smooth, hardly any noise and a lot of usable torque. And the machine looked really nice. If this would have been a production bike, I would have seriously considered it. So I started to see if other’s were also producing electric motorcycles and I found Zero.
Tomorrow I will have a demo ride - then I know how it feels and how it compares to my heavy K1300.
My questions:
Range
Most of my commuting trips are about 20km. One or two times a week I need to make a highway trip of about 140km. When I am in the office I can charge the bike for about 6-8 hours on a normal 220V outlet.
Can a Zero SR 2016 make such a “long†trip? Should I consider the additional batteries?
Fairing
I would really like some sort of fairing for the longer trips.
Is there some real fairing that you can put on a Zero SR? If not: are there any windscreens that you guys recommend?
Cases
Currently I am using a 46 liter Givi topcase. Something like this one: https://www.louis.eu/artikel/givi-topcase-e460n-monokey/10027370?list=205643867&filter_article_number=10027370 (https://www.louis.eu/artikel/givi-topcase-e460n-monokey/10027370?list=205643867&filter_article_number=10027370)
Can you fit this on the Zero?
Would that influence the range (too much)? (I noticed that on the BMW, adding the case leads to minor instability - suggesting that there is quite some drag caused by the case)
Any help is appreciated!
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I found out the hard way that range on the highway can be seriously compromised if you're initially headed into the wind, and then when the time comes to head back, the wind shifts.
I put a fairing on mine (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5838.msg43255#msg43255 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5838.msg43255#msg43255)), but it's a fair amount of work. (I need to update the photos).
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@quixotic:
Wow! That fairing looks great! It reminds me a bit of this cafe-racer modification of a XR1200 that I have always really liked:
http://www.maxpowermotorcycles.com.au/harley-davidson-xr1200-cafe-racer/ (http://www.maxpowermotorcycles.com.au/harley-davidson-xr1200-cafe-racer/)
It must look smashing! Is it finished now? Would really like to see the end result :-)
What is the typical range that you get on the highway?
Does the fairing help?
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The Zero seems like it's most ideal for a commuter bike, above all else.
That being said, if reliability is a concern, and/or if you can't borrow another motorcycle or car to get to work if the Zero dies on you, then it might make since to include an older beater like a ratty old Ninja 250 or CB250 in your budget in case your Zero ends up in the shop for a month or two.
Other than that, enjoy the bike! There's no other bike that I've ridden that comes close to the smoothness and ease of riding the Zero.
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That being said, if reliability is a concern, and/or if you can't borrow another motorcycle or car to get to work if the Zero dies on you, then it might make since to include an older beater like a ratty old Ninja 250 or CB250 in your budget in case your Zero ends up in the shop for a month or two.
Why are you explicitly mentioning this? Is the Zero not very reliable? Or do you have experience with (very) long waiting times in case parts need to be ordered?
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The Zero SR will definitely handle 140km (87mi) in one charge. A 13kWh 2016 should be able to handle 100 highway miles (160km) easily, although variables like headwinds and high speeds without a fairing or windscreen will eat at that. The stock charger will recharge from completely empty in about 9 hours like the specs claim.
A top case is a great idea, and will not affect your range very much at all (no one has been able to measure a difference). Presumably the air as it goes around you just re-attaches around the smooth edges of a Givi top case, so there's only a tiny penalty at best. You won't notice - I use a Givi Maxia E55. The OEM side case option impacts range very slightly but only about 5% or so. Boxier side cases would make more of a difference.
Zero's touring windscreen is the best OEM option for drag/range and only mounts to the handlebars so is easy to deal with. It should give you about a 10% range increase and you shouldn't have to tuck much to get behind it.
I've gone further and installed a very large Parabellum windscreen which seems to offer 15% range increase at least: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525)
That said, I am looking forward to a prebuilt or DIY fairing like quixotic's.
I would say the reliability factor is just about the turnaround time dealing with a Zero problem, which can be highly dependent on your dealer or location in the world. I keep my very reliable V-Strom as backup, but I prefer the Zero whenever I can.
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@quixotic:
Wow! That fairing looks great! It reminds me a bit of this cafe-racer modification of a XR1200 that I have always really liked:
http://www.maxpowermotorcycles.com.au/harley-davidson-xr1200-cafe-racer/ (http://www.maxpowermotorcycles.com.au/harley-davidson-xr1200-cafe-racer/)
It must look smashing! Is it finished now? Would really like to see the end result :-)
What is the typical range that you get on the highway?
Does the fairing help?
I generally just do short commutes, so I don't have a good handle on my range. The fairing might help marginally, but I mainly got it for the aesthetics, and to reduce buffeting on my short highway stints. It certainly helps for that.
I'll try and post a photo or two tonight on the "fairing fitment" thread.
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That being said, if reliability is a concern, and/or if you can't borrow another motorcycle or car to get to work if the Zero dies on you, then it might make since to include an older beater like a ratty old Ninja 250 or CB250 in your budget in case your Zero ends up in the shop for a month or two.
Why are you explicitly mentioning this? Is the Zero not very reliable? Or do you have experience with (very) long waiting times in case parts need to be ordered?
I've had my 2013 for a few months now, and absolutely no problems with reliability. I love that thing! Much better than any internal combustion vehicle I've ever had...except for touring.
There are at least a couple of threads on this site relating to reliability, so if you're nervous, you might want the check them out. One thread specifically asks for anecdotal evidence from folks (like me) who have had very reliable machines.
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I'd say, keep two things in mind. First, nobody squawks when their bike doesn't break down, so there's a pretty significant confirmation bias. You only hear about the problem children. Problems are almost always reported, but the lack of any problems is rarely, if ever, reported.
Second, it may seem new and unfamiliar, but it's really just like any other vehicle. If it breaks down, you get it to the shop, get it repaired, you're back on the road. I suspect that for several years, Zero had more reliability problems than most motorcycle makes, and repairs may have taken longer, strictly because they're a new manufacturer and they are using a different drivetrain technology than the others use. But most of us with 2013/2014 bikes have found them quite reliable, and my understanding is the newer bikes are even better.
I think just about every single person on this forum would tell you not to let the fear of the unknown keep you from the wonderful experience these machines provide. They are WORTH it.
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I would say in general, the 2013+ models are reliable, witch is important to me. I've had my '15 DS for 1,5 year and had one charger failure, a wel known issue for a batch or two of the 2015 models.
My dealer (europe) fixed it in 1 day. Other than that, no problems.
As for range; why don't you wait for the 2017 SR? That should go for sale in the next couple of months, with slightly more range.
And i've got to say; i love the bike. Rode it today for 183 km's on a charge with some juice left... The SR would even do a better job
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If you're considering it for commuting, you can save a few thousand dollars by going for the "S" model instead of the SR. I was also originally planning on the SR, but after talking to my insurance company and looking at the prices I went with the S model with 13 kWh battery. Not only is it a few thousand dollars cheaper, but it is also significantly cheaper to insure.
All I needed was something capable of easily doing 70 mph (even though our State speed limit is still 55, if you do less than 70 you're likely to get run off the road) and a decent range at that speed. I could've saved even more money by going for the 9 kWh version, but I'd like to be able to take a lunch time ride, and do a little playing around after work too.
The S is also more than quick enough to beat all but the most exotic sport cars off the line, too.
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I was able to test ride the Harley Livewire. The Zero S is comparable, but I definitely wouldn't mind more torque with the SR. My 2013 S has over 24,000 miles (38,600 km) on it, and has never let me down. It's gone through the cold and the rain. Getting 140 km on the highway could be done on the 13 kWh battery. I've made similar trips on the 11.4 kWh pack, but winds and not paying attention to my speed hurt my range. The power tank option would probably spare you from having to worry about that.
The ranges stated on the Zero website has been pretty spot on for me.
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140km on the highway? At 55 mph or 70+ mph? You are right at the edge of the published 55 mph range, and with the range anxiety that you'll feel, you'd probably want to have a power tank. My rule of thumb is I want to plan to get home with 15-20% battery still showing.
I love my Zero and think everyone should buy one. But I don't think the reporting bias explanation for all the problem reported here holds much water, because this forum is a dialog: if for every person that posts a problem, you get ten people responding saying they never have a problem, okay. But that isn't happening here. Are people with no problems that much more shy than the people with problems? Maybe a little less motivated to post a response versus a complaint, but come on... The threads with people asking for feedback of owners without problems is mostly filled with people posting saying they've had problems (but are happy they bought the bike). Count me in that group. I had problems, they were dealt with under warranty at no cost to me, and I am totally satisfied with the bike. It seems that people here are enthusiastic about the bike, and so the problems they have are generally minimized (with some notable exceptions! ;D ). So there is bias in both directions, right?
I do think the Zero S has plenty of power for me, but I have had a handful of ~50 HP bikes that always felt fast enough for sane street riding. If you're used to 100+ HP bikes, go with the SR.
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I love my Zero and think everyone should buy one. But I don't think the reporting bias explanation for all the problem reported here holds much water, because this forum is a dialog: if for every person that posts a problem, you get ten people responding saying they never have a problem, okay. But that isn't happening here. Are people with no problems that much more shy than the people with problems?
You must realize it'd be time consuming, distracting, and frustrating for people to chime in like that. Etiquette demands that we respect the person with an issue by trying to focus on helpful comments.
So, you see where there's one reply maybe about the symptom not being common, but anything after that would be rude; no reason to dogpile on a frustrated owner.
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Moving along...
Yes my 2016 DSR with OEM touring screen accessory gets almost exactly (or a little better) than 1mi per percent state-of-charge, flat-out in economy mode. That's 100mi range going 70mph.
It costs about $20k usd with accessories and rebates factored in. About $4k usd of that is for a Diginow Supercharger which is a 1-hour charger accessory, yet to be received or installed. So let's call it a $16k usd bike (pictures attached).
Mine was purchased the middle of May this year and I've put over 3000 miles on it simply commuting and on some interesting adventures. Pictured here is the Givi V47 top case which I just installed today. I'd say the touring screen and top case storage are must-have accessories for commuter purposes.
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Do yourself a favor and buy one.
I commute 5 days a week on an SR. 45 miles each way, 2000 miles per month when the weather is good. I get to work with 55% remaining and some of my commute is at 80 MPH but I would guess the average speed is about 55 MPH. Get the SR if you like to have fun. I think 140 kM is very attainable as long as the speeds are not too high, just tuck in behind a big vehicle and you can go forever. I typically get about 100 miles per charge with the majority on highway.
I bought a puig universal windscreen and it is really nice. No helmet buffeting at all and the wind hits the top of my shoulders which is just about right. It is very adjustable and it adds to the styling.
You will love the SR, it is my all time favorite motorcycle.
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The Zero SR will definitely handle 140km (87mi) in one charge. A 13kWh 2016 should be able to handle 100 highway miles (160km) easily, although variables like headwinds and high speeds without a fairing or windscreen will eat at that. The stock charger will recharge from completely empty in about 9 hours like the specs claim.
A top case is a great idea, and will not affect your range very much at all (no one has been able to measure a difference). Presumably the air as it goes around you just re-attaches around the smooth edges of a Givi top case, so there's only a tiny penalty at best. You won't notice - I use a Givi Maxia E55. The OEM side case option impacts range very slightly but only about 5% or so. Boxier side cases would make more of a difference.
Zero's touring windscreen is the best OEM option for drag/range and only mounts to the handlebars so is easy to deal with. It should give you about a 10% range increase and you shouldn't have to tuck much to get behind it.
I've gone further and installed a very large Parabellum windscreen which seems to offer 15% range increase at least: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525)
That said, I am looking forward to a prebuilt or DIY fairing like quixotic's.
I would say the reliability factor is just about the turnaround time dealing with a Zero problem, which can be highly dependent on your dealer or location in the world. I keep my very reliable V-Strom as backup, but I prefer the Zero whenever I can.
Thanks for your response!
My main worry is the range, but judging from your response that should not be an issue. That is reassuring :-)
This afternoon, I will test-drive the SR and hope that I will like it. Will surely consider the touring windscreen if I decide to purchase the bike.
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I'll try and post a photo or two tonight on the "fairing fitment" thread.
Looking forward to see pictures of your fairing. I like the idea of mixing classic style with high-tech machines like the Zero.
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I'd say, keep two things in mind. First, nobody squawks when their bike doesn't break down, so there's a pretty significant confirmation bias. You only hear about the problem children. Problems are almost always reported, but the lack of any problems is rarely, if ever, reported.
Second, it may seem new and unfamiliar, but it's really just like any other vehicle. If it breaks down, you get it to the shop, get it repaired, you're back on the road. I suspect that for several years, Zero had more reliability problems than most motorcycle makes, and repairs may have taken longer, strictly because they're a new manufacturer and they are using a different drivetrain technology than the others use. But most of us with 2013/2014 bikes have found them quite reliable, and my understanding is the newer bikes are even better.
I think just about every single person on this forum would tell you not to let the fear of the unknown keep you from the wonderful experience these machines provide. They are WORTH it.
Reliability is very important for me, but not my main concern. My main concerns are:
- range (which should be OK judging from the response of @BrianTRice, @Blotman, @oregonrider89 and @Manzanita)
- price (is it worth the investment? for the same price you can get "premium" bikes like my current one with active suspension, traction control, corner ABS, etc.)
- road-handling, brakes, driving fun (which I hope to find out later today)
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I'll try and post a photo or two tonight on the "fairing fitment" thread.
Looking forward to see pictures of your fairing. I like the idea of mixing classic style with high-tech machines like the Zero.
The up-to-date photo is on the other thread now. Yeah, I'm a big fan of those curvy 1960's. Agostini's MV Agusta was perhaps the most beautiful bike ever made...in my opinion. These days, everything seems so angular ("reptilian" is how I heard someone describe it).
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driving fun (which I hope to find out later today)
When I did my test drive, I found that the most difficult thing was trying to wipe the silly grin off my face ;D
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Well Guppie,les us know how testdriving went..?
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I just came back from my test drive on the Zero SR. The dealer just received a new demo SR and still had to remove the plastic foils that guard the fender/tank/etc when the bike is transported. Brand new :-)
Find it a bit difficult to describe my conclusion of the drive, because there are quite a few contradictions…
Let me first try to sum up the good and the bad:
Good:
- acceleration (even though it’s not mind blowing)
- stability on the highway
- weight
- manoeuvrability (of course related to the weight)
- belt drive (I hate chains)
- ABS
- relaxing (no sound, very easy to drive)
- warranty on battery
Bad:
- price
- design
- brakes (compared to my K1300 at least)
- mirrors
- charging times
- no traction control/corner ABS/other fancy driving aids
- very simple dashboard
- no fairing
Simply put: for more-or-less 20k EUR you pay a premium price, but do not get a premium bike (personal opinion of course).
I understand that it’s a lot cheaper to ride (energy costs, less chances for things to break because the whole concept is so much simpler than with an ICE, less costs for braking pads because of the regenerative brakes, etc), but why isn’t it at least a futuristic looking bike? The Harley looked stunning (en though it’s a completely different cruising-style machine) and also felt like it had more torque.
The acceleration is really good, but seems to slow down pretty soon after you have opened up the throttle. Since this is ride-by-wire it could be that the software is limiting it for some reason. It also does not lift the front wheel, which is something I would expect with that amount of torque.
The brakes were ok, not nothing compared to the stopping power of my K1300. I think it will improve when the brakes have settled in (the bike was brand new), but I really doubt if it can match the brakes of my current bike after that period. Why didn’t they put some high spec Brembo’s on it?
So:
Did I like it: yes!
Was I blown away: no…
My problem is that I do not want to own two bikes. I want one bike that does it all: safe commuting, low maintenance, decent fuel consumption. I understand that the Zero has it all, but with some (serious) limitations. For me, my current bike still has a better overall score. And you can’t really use a Zero for vacation trips to the Alps, unless you plan it really well in advance and that you can live with the charging times.
As it currently stands, I don’t think that this Zero would make me trade in my K1300. But maybe with some improvements in 2017?
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I'll try and post a photo or two tonight on the "fairing fitment" thread.
Looking forward to see pictures of your fairing. I like the idea of mixing classic style with high-tech machines like the Zero.
The up-to-date photo is on the other thread now. Yeah, I'm a big fan of those curvy 1960's. Agostini's MV Agusta was perhaps the most beautiful bike ever made...in my opinion. These days, everything seems so angular ("reptilian" is how I heard someone describe it).
Wow! That fairing looks stunning!
Compliments for taking such a gamble by ordering this non-OEM set from the internet, customising it and fitting it so neatly on your machine!
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For what it's worth, the economics dictate that half the price is for the battery which has a long lifetime. So, it's a good $8k bike with a powertrain that will outlive it.
I'm keeping this in mind while I try to figure out my plans for my 2013 DS...
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For what it's worth, the economics dictate that half the price is for the battery which has a long lifetime. So, it's a good $8k bike with a powertrain that will outlive it.
I'm keeping this in mind while I try to figure out my plans for my 2013 DS...
Well that is an interesting angle :-)
That put's the SR price in another perspective. With the progress that is being made in battery technology, I think that the battery is outdated faster than the rest of the SR hardware (chassis, etc.). Maybe Zero should be considering more premium base hardware with an option to upgrade the batteries at a reasonable price. Batteries can easily have a second life in houses for instance where they can be used for storing solar energy.
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For what it's worth, I was commuting 32 miles each way on my 2016 Zero S for months. I'd regularly have 35%+ left when I got home, which puts me roughly at [tap tap tap] 102 km = 65% of the charge capacity for 13 kwH battery.
Previously, I rode a 900+ lbs. cruiser. Which was nice and all, but a hard look at my motorcycle use made me realize that I commute on my motorcycle and not much else. I saw no reason to upgrade my bike to another monstrosity because the wife agreed to get on the back twice per year. In the meantime, I was heaving a huge motorcycle around a parking lot.
I believe we shop for vehicles by the edge cases. We buy huge trucks because twice per year, we haul something to the lake & back. Or we buy a huge 4-door saloon because we drive the coworkers to lunch once per month. Or we might want to store 3 bodies in the trunk. Whatever. 90% of the time, we just go to work and back and maybe run an errand on the way home.
I do love my Zero S. It's unlike any other ride out there. I liked Project Livewire when I saw it, but Harley Davidson is four years away from being where Zero is now, albeit with better styling. My Zero has enough torque to keep me entertained, enough range to get me where I need to go and can break the speed limit when I ask of it. I goes when I turn the key and twist the throttle. I don't really need anything more.
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...I don't really need anything more.
What about Pac-Man sound effects? I'm thinking about a sound generator that makes the chomp chomp noise at low speeds and plays the theme song at "idle".
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Well dammit... I didn't think I needed anything more. I stand corrected. ;)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxYzjjs6d1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxYzjjs6d1s)
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I believe we shop for vehicles by the edge cases. We buy huge trucks because twice per year, we haul something to the lake & back. Or we buy a huge 4-door saloon because we drive the coworkers to lunch once per month. Or we might want to store 3 bodies in the trunk. Whatever. 90% of the time, we just go to work and back and maybe run an errand on the way home.
I fully agree with you on the above!
That is why I have a subscription for a car sharing service for the few cases per year where I really can't use my bike.
To me this is not justifying the Zero SR price tag though.
In my opinion Tesla understands the customer better: they offer a premium product for a premium price with an adequate range. Maybe the quality is not on Mercedes/BMW level, but it comes really close. Tesla even offers more: all sorts of gadgets that might not be necessary (super large color display, auto pilot, wifi in the car, fancy LED lights, updates over-the-air, etc. etc.), but somehow justify the price. And the car looks (ehm...) "different", drives "different", accelerates in a "different" way.
To me the Zero doesn't have the above. So why spending all that money and not getting something really special (or "different") in return?
Personally I am willing to live with the range shortcomings of the Zero SR, but really only if there is something else to get exited about every time I get on it. Or it should be priced at about 10k EUR.
Eager to hear your thoughts :)
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Tesla also was able to raise billions of dollars in venture capital money to get off the ground. C'mon, man, cut Zero some slack. They've done an amazing job given the resources they have. It's early in the development curve, and prices are high. You can either dive in, or wait. Your choice.
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Tesla also was able to raise billions of dollars in venture capital money to get off the ground. C'mon, man, cut Zero some slack. They've done an amazing job given the resources they have. It's early in the development curve, and prices are high. You can either dive in, or wait. Your choice.
You're right. Guess I am not your typical early adaptor... So I guess I'll wait what Zero will release for 2017. Maybe they'll read my review :)
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Hrm. Well, I'm not a salesman. I don't think I can convince you to buy a Zero if the price per performance isn't going to work for you.
IMHO, it's a bit of a disservice to only look at the Zero in terms of cost per newton-meter. There are cheaper options available if your goal is to accelerate. Each of us has a hierarchy of factors that go into deciding on such a purchase. A quick list is torque, comfort, price, ride feel, estimated hassle, aesthetics, social positioning, customizability, and so on and so forth. In my specific case, I'm a tech geek. I love me some new technology and I am an early adopter of a lot of nifty things. The price premium to get on an electric motorcycle is worth it to me. It may not be for you.
I'm sure someone on this board is all about smoothness. Surely someone is all about noise. And I am positive there are several people who want lower emissions. These are areas that add value to the bike. How much value is an individual decision. If those don't matter to you all that much, then an electric motorcycle is probably not worth the cost to you.
I do think that Zero could expand their appeal by focusing a bit less on trying to make it "just like any other motorcycle, but with some nifty advantages" and more towards "check out the cool state of the art bike!". However, that is just a hunch. In addition to not being a salesman, I'm not a market researcher. I have seen a lot of people expressing contempt for electric bikes because they're too different as they are. I'm not sure if it's worth the loss of those potential customers in order to gain the gadget aficionados.
So here's the question: If the Zero SR had LED lighting and reworked plastic, would you buy it at the current price?
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@Semper Why
I think that I could live with the limited range and the hassle of having to charge it on a client location for 6 hours in order to be able to get back.
A more high tech package would indeed seriously make me consider buying it.
This would then need to include:
- reworked plastic that includes a fairing (would probably increase the range as well)
- high tech forks/brakes with real stopping power
- traction control
- corner ABS
- LED lighting
- color dash display with the option to modify the layout (like on the Ducati Multistrada)
Acceleration and top speed are just fine.
It would be nice to have the torque not building down so fast so that you can also wheelie the bike, but that is obviously not a necessity :)
Like I mentioned, I am convinced that the end is near for ICE powered cars and bikes. The smoothness of an electrical drivetrain, the simplicity and the efficiency gains are very attractive. It would be fantastic to put some solar cells on the roof of my house to be able to charge the bike.
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Question for the OP: When you were doing your demo ride, what mode was the bike in? I find it hard to believe that anyone would find the acceleration of a 400 lbs motorcycle sporting 102 lbs/ft of torque "unimpressive." When I did my demo of the SR last year, I, too, found the acceleration oddly disappointing... then I noticed the "Mode" switch by my right thumb and discovered the bike was in "ECO" mode. When I clicked it to "Sport" the only thought that came to mind was "YEE-HAH!!!"
Even my S is deceptively quick. It just doesn't "feel" that fast because it's so smooth and quiet, and you don't have the sensation of clicking through gears. However, recently I went riding with a friend of mine who wanted to try out my S. He rides a KTM 1290 Superduke, and if you've read the reviews, that thing is no slouch when it comes to acceleration. When we swapped bikes I found I had to really work the gears to keep up with him every time we launched from a traffic light.
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@JaimeC
The sales person put the bike in ECO mode at the start of my drive. I had a similar experience as you had, so after 500m or so I stopped and put it into SPORT mode. That helped!
I have to agree that it's hard to judge the acceleration without the noise of the engine being present. Maybe it's indeed as fast as they claim on the Zero website, but it did not feel like that. Maybe it also does not help that the front wheel seems to be glued to the tarmac... The KTM you are mentioning must be a wheelie monster that also makes you feel that you are accelerating really hard.
Also I think that because the bike accelerates so effortlessly without any shifting, you are probably accelerating faster than 99% of the other vehicles. Every time - without really "going for it". Hope you understand what I mean.
See my previous reply on what I am missing to consider buying it.
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I find that the SR accelerates so effortlessly and so fast I think it'd be more fun if it were slower (but I'm not going to turn it down). I'm at the speed limit so quick I have to roll back and sit up before I'm through the intersection, and that's with lots of head checks and a smooth roll out. At that point I'm just rolling along, ho hum. It's also at that point I again see other bikes that were waiting for the light. Maybe there aren't a lot of commuters on faster machines.
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I have a 2015 SR with 18,000 km and no real problems. I had it in the dealer shop for a battery % display issue at 700 km. They just tweaked the software and the problem disapeared.
As for range - if you only do 140km once a week you can always slow down a bit and range increases.
The price is high but if the claimed life of the battery is true 550,000 km at city speeds ( more like 300,000 for mixed riding) then thats better than a lot of cars, let alone bikes (you may have to replace 2 motor bearing and some wheel bearings but thats nothing really). How many km do you expect to put on your BMW before selling it? After 300,000 km you expect it won't need any parts?
The SR isn't as fast as big ICE bikes, but its not bad. Most riders I know use the clutch to lift the front wheel.
Zero's goal is to make an affordable electric motorbike. With batteries so expensive something has to give.
Tesla model S is not a $30,000 car. If you want premium, look at the Lighting LS218 (when it goes on sale), its less expensive than a tesla, but a lot more than a Zero!
I think you will be happy with its acceleration (and top speed).
The SR is no miracle machine but with the current state of technology (read batteries) Zero has done an amazing job.
The thing I love most is that instant torque when you turn the throttle. Put your BMW in top gear at 500 RPM and turn the throttle (you get the idea). If I am in cruse mode and all of a sudden I need acceleration all I have to do is turn the throttle, instantly I am out of trouble, no fumbling for lower gears, first.
That's what makes it so easy to ride. But it may not be the bike for you (yet).
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The thing I love most is that instant torque when you turn the throttle. Put your BMW in top gear at 500 RPM and turn the throttle (you get the idea). If I am in cruse mode and all of a sudden I need acceleration all I have to do is turn the throttle, instantly I am out of trouble, no fumbling for lower gears, first.
That's what makes it so easy to ride. But it may not be the bike for you (yet).
And thats the problem I have with it.
You DONT ride a normal bike in 4th gear all the time... so while you do have to shift, you end up with several times the torque of the SR. Put the bike in a lower gear and it has instant power too.
so for those of us that DONT have a problem riding normal bikes, the SR is legitimately lacking. that 102 ft lbs mentioned above is misleading, as the actual torque put to the tire and ground is far far less than that of even a middleweight bike.
is it quick enough for riding around? sure.
but its not comparable to an ICE bike that makes 100 ft lbs.... If you look at the total gearing, in 1st gear most sporty US market bikes make more than twice the torque at the wheel.
so of course it feels unimpressive to an experienced rider that has been talked up about "instant torque"
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Do count gas and maintenance costs per commute distance over time. Riding the Zero plateaus your monthly expenditures. Look at it as a commuting investment. 70k miles seems to be the "free" point (TCO less than a free motorcycle) but the calculation depends on local petrol prices versus electricity and the cost per 10k mi/km traveled of tires.
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"If you look at the total gearing, in 1st gear most sporty US market bikes make more than twice the torque at the wheel."
Source, please? I've seen LOTS of torque curves, but I can't remember one sport bike that ever hit 204 lbs/ft on the dyno in ANY gear.
Well... the Lightning LS218... but that doesn't really count here.
UPDATE: I just checked. The Lightning "only" puts 168 lbs/ft of torque to the pavement, which is roughly twice what a Ducati Panigale produces.
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"If you look at the total gearing, in 1st gear most sporty US market bikes make more than twice the torque at the wheel."
Source, please? I've seen LOTS of torque curves, but I can't remember one sport bike that ever hit 204 lbs/ft on the dyno in ANY gear.
Well... the Lightning LS218... but that doesn't really count here.
UPDATE: I just checked. The Lightning "only" puts 168 lbs/ft of torque to the pavement, which is roughly twice what a Ducati Panigale produces.
Dude, pick a literbike... the current 08-now honda is the least powerful so lets pick that and its brother, the CBR600.
The literbike will go over 90mph in 1st gear. Look at its redline 13,000. about twice that of the zero motor.
tires are the same OD.
So its fair to say that in first gear, the literbike is geared 2:1 compared to the zero.
OVER 100% (due to flywheel inertia and the clutch) of the engines torque is available at any given time.
do the math yourself.
same thing applies to the 600cc bikes, but they redlines at just over 60mph... the old rumor for this is that it makes for good magazine numbers. 0-60 mph and 0-100kph... really it means its geared so it has to shift compared to the zero, but from 60mph and below its fair to say it has far more torque.
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ICE bikes in first gear have more torque at the wheel but only when its reving hard. It would start out with less torque than the Zero (litre bike) but build to have more (much more with the gear multiplication at peak torque). Each time you change gear there is a dramatic drop in torque until you hit peak torque (but it is less because of less multiplication from the higher gear). But you can't always keep the motor at peak torque when ridding, so you have to fumble around to change down to get the "instant torque". But then thats not instant!
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so for those of us that DONT have a problem riding normal bikes, the SR is legitimately lacking. that 102 ft lbs mentioned above is misleading, as the actual torque put to the tire and ground is far far less than that of even a middleweight bike.
is it quick enough for riding around? sure.
but its not comparable to an ICE bike that makes 100 ft lbs.... If you look at the total gearing, in 1st gear most sporty US market bikes make more than twice the torque at the wheel.
so of course it feels unimpressive to an experienced rider that has been talked up about "instant torque"
Finally some evidence to support the experience I had while driving the SR.
As I mentioned before, it's hard to compare acceleration on two totally different machines when one of them makes no noise or vibration at all!
What I meant by saying an ICE bike is faster when "going for it" was indeed using maximum power/throttle in the right gear.
It's all about expectation management: the marketing lady I spoke before my test drive said that the power of the bike was comparable with a litre bike (something like my K1300). Well: it's not... I actually never studied the specs/theory like @MrDude_1 did, but I really think he's right.
Full acceleration (in the right gear of course) on my K1300 is so much faster than the Zero SR. You also really have to lean forward to avoid the from wheel from lifting (and even when you do it might lift).
But - as mentioned by others - it's probably “effortless†acceleration aspect on the Zero SR that makes it a fast machine on average.
Thanks to @MrDude_1 for his remarks :)
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Something else I was wondering about.
If you look at the specs of the Zero SR on the website (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr)), you'll see that adding the power tank option costs 0.6 seconds in acceleration time (0-60).
Is that just due to the added weight (about 25kg according to the sales person)? Or is there some software limitation kicking in?
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I definitely feel my DSR is a touch more sluggish after adding 25lbs of accessories...
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25 kgs? Or 25 lbs? But yeah, weight is huge. Rider weight, especially: say 125 lbs versus 170 lbs. That works out to about 10% of the gross vehicle weight.
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As I mentioned before, it's hard to compare acceleration on two totally different machines when one of them makes no noise or vibration at all!
That's the part that has me totally hooked!
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What I meant by saying an ICE bike is faster when "going for it" was indeed using maximum power/throttle in the right gear.
It's all about expectation management: the marketing lady I spoke before my test drive said that the power of the bike was comparable with a litre bike (something like my K1300). Well: it's not...
You are correct, it's not as fast as a litre bike. That was an over reach by the sales person. I tell people it's about the same as a 650 twin. I have never ridden a 650 twin but a reviewer stated it.
, so I go with that. Many youtube videos state a similar thing. Some show a drag with a 600cc and a 1000cc. The 600 stays with it early until it hits max RPM in first gear, the 1000cc is quicker at all stages.
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With the Zero it is the relative ease with which one can get more consistent acceleration times vs. a bike where one has to switch gears and be worried about controlling wheel spin and front wheel lift. On the SR it is just twist and go - on a good dry pavement on a straight line it won't spin the rear tire, it won't lift the front tire. At least with my 200+lb on it is nothing to get scared from. I have not measured my 0-60 times, but I would think they are over 4s but not much more than that. While a 600cc bike (or a liter bike) is certainly capable of faster 0-60 times with a skilled rider, I would think on the average it won't beat the SR/DSR by any margin that matters whatsoever on the street and in terms of quick reactions the SR is always in the right gear and quick enough, so might actually have an advantage on the average. Now, if you want to wheelie, that's a different story - the SR is a sore looser in that department (although I find it mostly a benefit since I don't have to worry about it wheeling from under me unexpectedly :) )
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With the Zero it is the relative ease with which one can get more consistent acceleration times vs. a bike where one has to switch gears and be worried about controlling wheel spin and front wheel lift. On the SR it is just twist and go - on a good dry pavement on a straight line it won't spin the rear tire, it won't lift the front tire. At least with my 200+lb on it is nothing to get scared from. I have not measured my 0-60 times, but I would think they are over 4s but not much more than that. While a 600cc bike (or a liter bike) is certainly capable of faster 0-60 times with a skilled rider, I would think on the average it won't beat the SR/DSR by any margin that matters whatsoever on the street and in terms of quick reactions the SR is always in the right gear and quick enough, so might actually have an advantage on the average. Now, if you want to wheelie, that's a different story - the SR is a sore looser in that department (although I find it mostly a benefit since I don't have to worry about it wheeling from under me unexpectedly :) )
because of similar redlines and similar gearing, you dont have to shift any of the 600cc bikes to get to 60, They're all right at 2.8 seconds. the literbikes are all at 2.6 now, but the 06 GSXR 1000 claimed 2.3-something.. I dont buy that one. lol.
yes a fast ICE bike start doesnt start at idle RPM so some skill is required, but even a non-pro overweight rider that has only the most basic concept of a launch will be deep in the 3 second times.
Its the CG, gearing, and traction that are the limitation, not power. In the case of the zero, its the power.
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I hear at least one shift from the bikes behind me as I'm lifting off at the speed limit (please reference my previous post). Maybe riders with gearboxes don't want their bike to sound like they're racing and draw the kind of attention that results in citations. I, of course, don't have that issue and when I sit up I think I'm sending the signal that I'm trying to be a law-abiding angel.
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That being said, if reliability is a concern, and/or if you can't borrow another motorcycle or car to get to work if the Zero dies on you, then it might make since to include an older beater like a ratty old Ninja 250 or CB250 in your budget in case your Zero ends up in the shop for a month or two.
Why are you explicitly mentioning this? Is the Zero not very reliable? Or do you have experience with (very) long waiting times in case parts need to be ordered?
I had a ton of problems with my 2012, both with the bike and with getting any work done on it (under warranty) through the local dealer. Then I got a new 2014 model S and a month into owning it I ended up dead in the water for a month, just to get a single circuit board replaced. Feel free to read through my comment history, or just start here:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5949.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5949.0)
But basically, the bikes should be incredibly reliable, there's less that should wear out, etc; but if something does break, their undiagnosable by oneself or any other local mechanic (since Zero doesn't release a factory service manual), and even after taking it to a Zero dealer the dealer mechanics are dependent on the factory for remote diagnostics, much less actually getting parts ordered and actually shipped out.
Thus, it's the complete opposite of a cheap beater 250 that anyone can work on, even if over the lifetime of the bikes the Zero may require less often repairs, it seems you'd be less likely to be stuck without transportation for months with a cheapo gas bike as a backup.
The Zero is certainly way cooler, but read around the comment histories for other people's repair times and make a decision for yourself.
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Second, it may seem new and unfamiliar, but it's really just like any other vehicle. If it breaks down, you get it to the shop, get it repaired, you're back on the road. I suspect that for several years, Zero had more reliability problems than most motorcycle makes, and repairs may have taken longer, strictly because they're a new manufacturer and they are using a different drivetrain technology than the others use. But most of us with 2013/2014 bikes have found them quite reliable, and my understanding is the newer bikes are even better.
I think just about every single person on this forum would tell you not to let the fear of the unknown keep you from the wonderful experience these machines provide. They are WORTH it.
Of course if it breaks down you get it to a shop, and wait for it to be repaired. But unless you happen to break down next to not just any motorcycle shop but a Zero dealer, and the repair and parts takes a couple of days instead of a month or more, then it's not like owning any other vehicle. The problem with my new 2014 in another thread is an example.
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I hear at least one shift from the bikes behind me as I'm lifting off at the speed limit (please reference my previous post). Maybe riders with gearboxes don't want their bike to sound like they're racing and draw the kind of attention that results in citations. I, of course, don't have that issue and when I sit up I think I'm sending the signal that I'm trying to be a law-abiding angel.
I agree with this entirely. I've smoked every gas bike that's pulled up next to me at the light and revved. Some I've beat repeatedly at lights ahead and they keep trying. You've hit the nail on the head - people don't want to rev to 12,000RPMs to be in proper launch range, they don't want to attract the attention. So they end up giving it a bit of gas, and ramping it up as they go. Maybe reaching 4 or 5 seconds 0-60. I've timed myself at 4 seconds, but I'm carrying more weight on me than the 130 pound test rider that did it in 3.4 or whatever.
Also, those gas bikes that do 2.x or 3 flat - that's with a 130lb professional drag racer. Most commuters or just casual riders aren't comfortable with redlining and dumping the clutch, but leaving just enough in to keep the wheel down. They also weigh more than that 14 year old pro drag racer that gave the bike the official 2.x second 0-60. Real world, for so many reasons, I can do 0-60 in 4 seconds off of every light and never be bothered by police, and no gas biker yet has been crazy enough to do more than barely keep up with me.
That's just my experiences though. Notice that I'm not saying that a professional drag racer on a decent street bike wouldn't fly past me off the line - there's just very few of those around, and ever fewer that are willing to risk their license doing it and making all that noise on the suburban streets.
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Think it's really cool that so many persons on this forum take the time to share their ideas and comments!
My personal conclusions thus far:
* Zero SR performance
The fact that the marketing person of Zero told me to expect “liter bike performance†set my expectations too high. Guess that @grmarks is about right - the acceleration performance is about the same as a SV650 (or something like that).
In order to accelerate hard, the Zero SR takes no effort at all: just twist the throttle and off you go. In “real life situations†you will probably be quicker than an ICE bike because of this.
Torque on an ICE bike is bigger because the gearbox multiplies the torque before it’s sent to the rear wheel. On the Zero SR there is a direct connection so the claimed torque of the engine is also available (minus drivetrain losses) on the rear wheel.
* Zero SR range
This should be sufficient for my commuting needs. For sure if I would opt for the extra power pack.
* Zero SR package
This is very personal, but for EUR 21000 this is simply too basic to justify such an investment. Even if the running/maintenance costs are much less than my current machine.
For me the SR is missing: distinct styling, proper fairing, proper brakes and forks, etc. (see earlier post).
As I can only own one bike, the 2016 SR at this price level is not going to persuade me to trade in my current bike...
But who knows what Zero will come up with in 2017?
Maybe this could act as an inspiration: http://www.bikeexif.com/custom-zero-sr-electric-motorcycle (http://www.bikeexif.com/custom-zero-sr-electric-motorcycle)
Note how the page is mentioning "The price might be steep, but the Zero’s performance is breathtaking: Your right hand controls 106 ft-lb of instantaneous torque, which is more than an EBR 1190RX or Suzuki Hayabusa.". This is how the confusion starts...