ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Justin Andrews on December 15, 2013, 05:35:42 AM
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I'm having an issue... Sad to say, and I thought I'd prevail upon the combined knowledge of people here.
A couple of weeks ago my ZF9-S (2012) decided it did'nt want to go. The exact symptoms were when I turned the key on, the lights come on, the dash board lights up and goes through the normal checks (the 2011 11 display, the speedo needle whizzing around etc) but no drive when turning the thottle, and no error lights.
The thing I really noticed was no click of the contactor. After leaving the bike for a day, I came back to find it fine, the contactor clicked on, as the bike drove normally. (Yey!)
Two weeks later, and it happens again (boo!) this time I've left it for a few days trying to turn it on occasionally, with no joy.
Does anyone have any ideas what might have happened.
I'm wondering if damp has gotten in some where, and the controller is deciding that as a result it is unwise to engage the contactor. Or maybe a loose connection.
Anyway the bike is under warrenty, so invoking that seems the sensible course of action, but I was hoping someone might have a solution, as I really could do with getting the ZF9 back on the road (as the Diversion is a the Garage having its rear brakes repaired... I'm clearly not having much luck with my bikes at the moment... :D )
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That is exactly what my bike does most (but not all) mornings, lately. But the contactor clicks and it starts up immediately after turning the ignition switch off and then back on again. And it is fine the rest of the day - unless it sits out in cold, windy weather for several hours and then the startup glitch will happen again.
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I could live with that if it were the case.
Sadly a few dozen attempts at switching off and on do nothing.
I'm confident its something stupid, and it'll be fixable, and I'll be back on the road again. :)
(Least its not like the three Suzuki bandits I owned, every one of which would die in heavy rain because the CDI unit got wet. That was really annoying.)
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To see if the Sevcon has a problem or the MBB BMS -> (I don't think so you should have an error code at the dash) - has one, you can remove the seat. You will find the sevcon covered with a plastic part the sevcon has a green LED it is right from the connector if you stand to the left of your bike. I am not sure if it is visible with the plastic cover or if you need to lift/remove it (take care with your warranty!)
The LED has a blinking code you will find in the attached pdf.
If you see a fault blinking maybe we find out what the reason is!
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Ok, at least the LED on the sevcon is really easy to get to. :) (Good design decision by Zero there.)
Its flashing three times, which looking at that fault guide you posted means:
The Mosfets in the Sevcon are faulty.
The Hardware over voltage has been detected. (Does this mean the Battery voltage is too high?)
Or an over current trip has activated.
I guess the third (over current) happens during operation / riding which is not the case here.
So battery over voltage or faulty Sevcon perhaps?
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The Hardware over voltage has been detected. (Does this mean the Battery voltage is too high?)
The battery can not be too high - the over Voltage value is a software setting in the Sevcon and ~103V at my controller.
It could be the voltage measuring has a problem and see more voltage but if your battery has 103V parked it would be not longer be IN the battery box in you bike!
Or an over current has activated.
If there is a shortcut in the motor it could detect maybe this - but it is very unlikely to me specially your bike run once again.
The Mosfets in the Sevcon are faulty.
So it looks to be a real HW defect to me - come over I have a size 4 on my table ;D.
Maybe a kind of faulty solder point?
I never heard of a defect Sevcon here so let us know what was the real problem!
Sorry I think you really need your dealer :'(
Hope things get OK in your case!
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For 2013 models this is a known issue, for which Zero dealers seem to have a fix (i'll try this this week). I really advise fixing this as soon as possible - my first zero (a 2012 XU, stopped for 6 months at Zero's service center without any news on when I will be able to have it fixed again) first had this issue before having more serious ones (stopping brutally into the traffic)...
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come over I have a size 4 on my table
Curse the channel / north sea, for it does get in the way sometimes!
(We should all sort out a European Zero Owners get together at some point, we UK zero owners feel kinda lonely over here... ;) )
Cheers for the help though.
I'll contact the service center tomorrow. I'll also be surprised if the Sevcon is faulty, as they are renowned for their reliability, but then nothing is fool proof either.
VChampion, I've had the fix for the glitch, so my bike no longer cuts out in traffic.
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Hmmm. After three days of rest my bike decides to fire up this morning...
So whatever the fault is, its intermittent.
I'm wondering if damp or something might be triggering a short somewhere, and thats causing the code 3 fault.
Grr, I hate intermittent faults more than any other.
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Gah, one light rain shower half an hour later and the bike decides to go back to sulking.
I think Zero need to help me on this one. :)
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I feel sorry for you!
How is your dealer situation in the UK?
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I feel sorry for you!
Cheers, its one of those things that happens though, not worth getting unhappy about.
How is your dealer situation in the UK?
Not great if you want to buy a new Zero, but Zero has a deal with a dealer in Bedford to handle warranty work at their garage, so its not all that bad either.
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Just tested the bike again, and its working again.
I suspect that something has not been sealed completely somewhere (maybe a connector) and damp is getting in.
Its not something that any other Zero owner has reported here though, so it must just be "one of those things", hopefully Zero will be able to look into it.
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My recollection is that Zero had a recall of the BMS board that corrected a moisture problem in the early 2012 bikes. Perhaps your bike has not been updated with the new waterproofed board?
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Seems somewhat unlikely that its that Richard, as my bike has just had the waterproofing on the board done the other month. :)
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Hmm.. when I had a BMS glitch due to dampness (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.msg6949#msg6949), the bike error indicator did show information. So I think this is probably not a BMS problem .. I think you're right to look at the Sevcon.
The Sevcon should be rated at IP67 but perhaps a seal on the controller or a connector has failed. Not sure if applying a hairdryer to the controller would be helpful or not - it might force moisture farther inside.
Agree that this probably requires dealer service, unfortunately.
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Spent the day looking into this after I had to have the bike rescued earlier in the week.
I now suspect that the problem occurs when the motor is cool (so it can't easily dry off any water) and it gets wet.
I'm wondering if the Sevcon perhaps has some level of RCD protection when its precharging on switch up and when the motor is wet there is a tiny amount of current leakage. Not sure, but the motor being wet seems to play a part in the problem I'm having.
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Yep it appears, that the contactor fails to throw when the motor is wet.
Any ideas why?
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Hello Justin,
The RCD idea – I don't know how it would be done. We have Battery + / – and the M1, M2, M3 line at the sevcon. For a RCD we would need an earth wire like potential. Maybe the heat-sink could work but you can have connected a battery + or – also to your vehicle body.
But there might be a protection if a leakage current between the heat-sink or M1-M2-M3 windings exist.
An other question have you ever opened the connector from the Sin-Cos wires to the sevcon.
There is a connector ~15cm from the motor. It has a kind of a splint to fix the engage mechanism.
It connect the Sin-Cos, 5V, GND and the temperature sensor to the sevcon.
If there is some moister maybe it will do things wrong.
I think if I run my sevcon “on my desk†without motor and sensor it showed a blinking code 11 that the “Encoder fault†appeared. (what is understandable to me but I talk of my remembrance nearly 1 year ago) .
First maybe you can see something when the connector is open (moisture) and if the sevcon is still doing your 3 times error code and not doing a 11 times it will likely not be the Sin-Cos nor Temp-sensor.( I think you should shut off the bike when opening the wires and it makes analysis harder – not knowing if the fault still is present. How repeatable is the fault?)
You cold also remove the M1 to M3 cables in each combination to see if one will be the reason for the fault. (remember the cable order – mine as been marked with dotes 1 to 3). Maybe the enamelled wires inside the motor has a fault.
If the fault exist when all M1-3 and the connector is open – it will be inside the sevcon (in my opinion)
The Sin-Cos encoder seams to make problem with the glitch thing but it has only a magnetic connection(I think a hall sensor.) There is a magnet on the end of the crankshaft rotating in-front off the sensor - at the fan side .
The temperature sensor might be in/between the windings and could lead to a leakage current.
Maybe some ideas to try. Have you been at your dealer? I know if the fault comes and goes it is pretty hard to find!
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Thanks BSDThw that's really useful info.
Sorry, I was'nt talking about adding an RCD, I was wondering instead if the Sevcon was acting like an RCD.
By this I mean that when the Sevcon is precharging before engaging the contactor, its seeing current leak across the motor (due to the damp) and going into a fault mode. This might trip the three blink over current detected.
But there might be a protection if a leakage current between the heat-sink or M1-M2-M3 windings exist.
I suspect that something like this is what is causing the problem.
I'm not sure the sin/cos encoder is involved here, especially as my one is supposed to be on of the repotted & waterproofed ones...
I'm pretty certain that the ZF9 should not start simply because the motor has got wet. I've also raised this with Zero themselves (due to lack of dealer support here in the UK at the moment.)