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[Tony]

Not sure if it is helpful, but before the MC thing happened again, I did a full range check, going from 100-0%, just to record just how much range the batteries could physically produce. Because I was suspicious whether the MC problem was truly resolved (it used to tell me max 80km), or if the software just believed it was resolved, and somehow in the end would give me rubbish range when pushed beyond a broken batterys limit.

However, I ended up with a healthy 212km range, which indicates the battery did its job well.

But, right after this experiment, the MC came right back following charging the bike all the way from 0 to 100%. Perhaps the BMS got confused due to the fully drained battery and went insane again, after it was temporarily sane after a BMS reset due to the recent service? This is one theory I have seen. However, this is contradicted by people saying this issue was permanently fixed for them after replacing the battery.

A lot of guesswork here, anyway I tried to have it serviced to cure this issue, didnt work. I need a fully working bike and not a puzzle, so probably will be forced to selling it. I have no clue what to do now, I doubt the engineers at my service spot suddenly can figure it out when they already thoroughly tested everything to their knowledges limit before.

The drain post is here btw:

https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12104.0

When you say the magic charging came back do you mean that you were only showing 80 km estimated range again after you charged it to 100% ? Did you charge till the charger shut off on it's own or did you stop the charge when it reached 100% on the dash?
I'm a little confused about your range test. If you rode a bike with severe magic charging like the one in Morgan's video on a bunch of short rides over the space of two weeks with periods of sitting in between wouldn't the soc just recalculate each time you parked it? When you did the test did the soc go up at all between rides?  If it showed 50% soc when you shut it off did it still read 50% a day later when you turned it on?

So, to make it clear: I used to have the magic charging for the whole summer, then had it serviced and they replaced some wires they found was "leaking electricity", to use their own words. Some more details earlier here.

After this, no trace of magic charging at all. The range estimate was completely accurate, and everything was great for a few weeks. Then I decided to do that drain test, just to really see how far I could go if I took it all the way to 0%. After this test, once I charged back from 0% to 100% (all the way, till the charger shut off), I got right back to where I was before the bike was fixed. With very pessimistic range estimates after a short ride. I was at 100% starting my short trip. About 15-20 km later, when returning home, it was at 50-60%, with the bike giving me a remaining range estimate of about 80km. I don't remember the starting range estimate, but it was lower than usual when it was behaving normally. Something like 170km.

At the moment, the autumn has hit here, so I did not ride much after this. and I haven't analyzed the recent behavior in detail. But traditionally, it would show me one range estimate and remaining power estimate when turning off the bike after riding, then a new longer range estimate and higher remaining power estimate when turning it back on later.

[electrictwowheeler]

Thanks for the clarification Tony. Yes, I read your post about the buss bar replacement. I suppose your only option is to take it back to the dealer. I can't imagine what running the battery down would do to cause the magic charging to come back after 2 weeks of normal operation. I did it at 10,000 miles and again at 20,000 miles and it didn't cause any change in the way my bike works. It appears to be a waste of time and battery. I can only say that I'm sorry you are having trouble.
It seems they did fix it for a couple of weeks. If we could only know what caused things to change it might shed some light on the problem.

Has anyone reading this thread had a permanent fix for the magic charging problem?

[NervEasy]

There is no fix for this problem at the moment. Some bikes have it some don't. I know of one bike that does not have this problem and I know of several more that do have it. The degree of the problem varies and mostly correlates how long you have been riding with the bike. I had 3 main batteries and their BMS's exhibit this problem and they all followed a similar trend. Starting of fine, first signs of the issue at 1500-2000 km and downhill from there. I have tried so many things to isolate the problem but nothing seems to have a lasting impact. The weird and dodgy consumption meter on the dash definitly does not help.

But yeah, no fix for almost 2 years know.

[electrictwowheeler]

There is no fix for this problem at the moment. Some bikes have it some don't. I know of one bike that does not have this problem and I know of several more that do have it. The degree of the problem varies and mostly correlates how long you have been riding with the bike. I had 3 main batteries and their BMS's exhibit this problem and they all followed a similar trend. Starting of fine, first signs of the issue at 1500-2000 km and downhill from there. I have tried so many things to isolate the problem but nothing seems to have a lasting impact. The weird and dodgy consumption meter on the dash definitly does not help.

But yeah, no fix for almost 2 years know.

Thanks for the input. I have followed your long saga closely and there is allot of helpful info there. You are the expert on this topic!

[NervEasy]

It's really frustrating... Especially as I traded in my Zero S MY 2019 with charge tank for this bike. That bike had stellar range and SoC stability. I was ok with a bit of range loss (going on from the specs from Zero's website). But in reality, this bike has about half of the range (that you can use in one go without having to stop and magicly recharge) and that is dropping at the moment, not speaking of the numerous weeks it has been in the shop. The deafening silence of Zero on this subject is a problem imho. At the moment I can only go on what my dealer tells me but it sounds like Zero isn't even telling the dealers much.

[Richard230]

Thinking about the problem for some time, my thought is that if the "magic charging" was the result of buggy firmware then every bike should be affected and I don't think that has been observed. Besides, if it was bad firmware I do think Zero would be dropping updates to solve the problem not long after it was reported to their dealers and giving their dealers headaches and irritation. (I think Zero is more concerned about the feelings of their dealers than their customers.)

My current speculation is that Zero received a big batch of bad cells from the Chinese factory a couple of years ago and has mixed them up with good cells in many of their battery packs used on the Gen 3 models. Those cells are not functioning or aging well and their voltage drops more than the good cells in the pack under a continuous load, resulting is a low SOC. Then after the bike has sat around for a while, they rebound resulting in a higher SOC. If this is the case, Zero would certainly be reluctant to replace all of the impacted battery packs to fix the problem due to the cost. Which might be why they are remaining very quiet about the issue. Perhaps they are negotiating with the battery factory about them paying for the cost of replacing affected packs and don't want to say anything in public until they know who is going to pay to fix the problem.    The covid lock-down situation in China might also be a factor in resolving the problem if it has resulted from badly manufactured cell pouches.

I experienced a similar problem on my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S when its 24 High Power prismatic cells were not up to the task of powering the bike and were of random quality. With individual mini-BMS devices attached to each cell, when a few would start to drop voltage faster then the others, the entire battery output would be affected, but would recover once the load was reduced or ended. Needless to say, that really reduced the bike's ability to travel any useful distance. Maximum range went from 40 miles at 35 mph when new to only 10 miles after 1200 miles.  Replacing individual cells with new ones helped for a while but eventually the bike was no longer very useful and had to be "recycled".

[DonTom]

Thinking about the problem for some time, my thought is that if the "magic charging" was the result of buggy firmware then every bike should be affected and I don't think that has been observed. Besides, if it was bad firmware I do think Zero would be dropping updates to solve the problem not long after it was reported to their dealers and giving their dealers headaches and irritation. (I think Zero is more concerned about the feelings of their dealers than their customers.)

My current speculation is that Zero received a big batch of bad cells from the Chinese factory a couple of years ago and has mixed them up with good cells in many of their battery packs used on the Gen 3 models. Those cells are not functioning or aging well and their voltage drops more than the good cells in the pack under a continuous load, resulting is a low SOC. Then after the bike has sat around for a while, they rebound resulting in a higher SOC. If this is the case, Zero would certainly be reluctant to replace all of the impacted battery packs to fix the problem due to the cost. Which might be why they are remaining very quiet about the issue. Perhaps they are negotiating with the battery factory about them paying for the cost of replacing affected packs and don't want to say anything in public until they know who is going to pay to fix the problem.    The covid lock-down situation in China might also be a factor in resolving the problem if it has resulted from badly manufactured cell pouches.

I experienced a similar problem on my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S when its 24 High Power prismatic cells were not up to the task of powering the bike and were of random quality. With individual mini-BMS devices attached to each cell, when a few would start to drop voltage faster then the others, the entire battery output would be affected, but would recover once the load was reduced or ended. Needless to say, that really reduced the bike's ability to travel any useful distance. Maximum range went from 40 miles at 35 mph when new to only 10 miles after 1200 miles.  Replacing individual cells with new ones helped for a while but eventually the bike was no longer very useful and had to be "recycled".

But see message number 48, where it says the voltage only raises a negligible amount. If that is accurate, there goes OUR theory.


I say "our theory" because otherwise I would agree with you. 


My Zero DS, when the battery started to fail, it had the "magic charging" issue big time. There was no doubt that was a battery problem and not a SOC problem. Other symptoms were the much faster charging to full, seemingly much better regen (related, of course) and a range of a third or less. But a range of perhaps 50% if I let it "magic charge" every few miles or so. When the battery was replaced under warranty (a 7.2 KWH replaced my 6.5KWH) every trace of the "magic charging" went away for good and had more range than ever before. Very noticeable difference.


So, one thing I know for 100% sure is that "magic charging" can be caused by a defective battery. Absolutely no doubt possible--my own experience of a bad battery. But that is not solid proof of it being the "magic charging" problem on the 3rd gen bikes. But it only some bikes have the issue, and some don't that would be a big clue that it is. But then there is that reply number 48 in this thread that indicates it is not the problem.


If that check was done correctly, I don't know what to think. But otherwise, sure sounds like a battery problem to me too.


-Don- Reno, NV

[NervEasy]

it can be a shit calibrated way of measuring current and voltage. Where some bikes are in spec and others have a drift that causes shit readings.

[MVetter]

My current speculation is that Zero received a big batch of bad cells from the Chinese factory a couple of years ago and has mixed them up with good cells in many of their battery packs used on the Gen 3 models.

The packs come preassembled. They're not shipping raw cells from Farasis to Zero. Farasis builds the monoliths, long bricks, and short bricks fully made and potted.

[Richard230]

My current speculation is that Zero received a big batch of bad cells from the Chinese factory a couple of years ago and has mixed them up with good cells in many of their battery packs used on the Gen 3 models.

The packs come preassembled. They're not shipping raw cells from Farasis to Zero. Farasis builds the monoliths, long bricks, and short bricks fully made and potted.

If that is the case then any factory battery issues are Farasis's responsibility. And they need to find a solution and to foot the bill for replacements.

[MVetter]

Not if they're firmware-related...

[Richard230]

Not if they're firmware-related...

Very true. Place your bets on either a battery issue or firmware needing a major update due to a crawling bug. 

[Demoni]

My current speculation is that Zero received a big batch of bad cells from the Chinese factory a couple of years ago and has mixed them up with good cells in many of their battery packs used on the Gen 3 models. Those cells are not functioning or aging well and their voltage drops more than the good cells in the pack under a continuous load, resulting is a low SOC. Then after the bike has sat around for a while, they rebound resulting in a higher SOC.

But see message number 48, where it says the voltage only raises a negligible amount. If that is accurate, there goes OUR theory.

-Don- Reno, NV

I suspect the issue is not directly firmware related, however software may help mitigate the issue. Since we have no idea what parameters Zero uses to calculate SOC we can only guess.
Pack voltage only tells part of the story to fully understand what is going on; individual cell voltages are required. Like Richard is theorizing even a single chain of cells with a greater voltage sag under load could be a factor. A .5-1V discrepancy at the cell level is massive but that same difference when looking at total pack voltage would be inconsequential.
Being able to log cell voltages when the battery is under load would give a much clearer picture.

Another theory...Defective BMS components or possibly some BMS units with bad software? If the data the bike's ECU is receiving from the BMS is inaccurate, that may cause fluctuations to SOC?

[NEW2elec]

Isn't this part of the BMS's job to monitor the cells and thus the whole battery to give the MBB the SOC figures?
And if so shouldn't that be where to look for either a program fault or faulty hardware?

Sounds like a good place to start to me.

[Skidz]

If Farasis is providing the bricks as an assembled unit, then it might be that behind the scenes Zero is fighting a battle to get this issue to be determined battery-related. And Farasis might be blaming the software.