ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: benswing on December 16, 2012, 05:09:11 AM
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So now that Zero has committed their 2013 line to the CHAdeMO style of charger that is popular in Japan and not the J1772 charger that we have here in the states, what's gonna happen?
I can buy a J1772 Level 2 charger at Home Depot for about $800 according to their website. Is there a comparable CHAdeMO charger available? I wasn't able to find one after a cursory look. Will Zero carry the chargers?
Is Zero looking into J1772 compatibility? Any insight is welcome.
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You are talking about 2 very different things. J1772 is just a higher current AC supply with a fancy connector whereas chademo is DC fast charging. J1772 has no real advamtage over the current IEC connector on the bike until you start carrying multiple onboard chargers.
What I see as the future is the tech Renault are helping develop as Harlan posted in another thread, where you use the controller as the AC to DC converter and the motor windings as a step down transformer. It means you can effectively charge as fast as you can discharge, I.e. 440 amps for the sevcon or whatever the limit of your AC supply is. Its so simple that it has to work.
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You are talking about 2 very different things. J1772 is just a higher current AC supply with a fancy connector whereas chademo is DC fast charging. J1772 has no real advamtage over the current IEC connector on the bike until you start carrying multiple onboard chargers.
What I see as the future is the tech Renault are helping develop as Harlan posted in another thread, where you use the controller as the AC to DC converter and the motor windings as a step down transformer. It means you can effectively charge as fast as you can discharge, I.e. 440 amps for the sevcon or whatever the limit of your AC supply is. Its so simple that it has to work.
AC Propulsion did this YEARS ago. Lots of ticks to keep everything isolated but yes they can put out ~20kw of charging through that system.
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Yes but renault are running with it and they claim to be able to charge from 415V 3 Phase which is far more useful than an 18KW limit when you have an 80KWh pack.
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The cheapest CHAdeMO station that I'm aware of is made by Nissan, and costs about $10k.
Maybe there are some cheaper ones now, but they're still mostly commercial-intent units with 480 V or 3 phase inputs.
Some of the chargers can operate at reduced power on 240V, so they could theoretically be installed in a home. That's fine for the 2013 Zeros; 240V 50A would still charge the bike in an hour, or a Nissan Leaf in about 2 hours.
The Orca Mobile (http://andromedapower.com/Orca_Mobile.php) is one such unit. Its price? A cool $24990 (http://andromedapower.net/ap-shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=3).
Nichicon JP announced a range of lower-power quick charger back in May, including a 10 kW charger, NQC-A102.
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/pr/topics_cf_ev.html (http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/pr/topics_cf_ev.html)
No price is available and I can't find anyone selling these yet, but it claims to be "low cost" and supports 208V 60Hz 3 phase input. Ideal for home use charging our Zero bikes, right? Not so fast - the lower-power chargers are limited by current. Even though the 2013 ZF11.4 bike could be charged in about an hour with say 120V 100A DC output (12 kW), the Nichicon range of chargers are current-limited at the 500V DC output voltage. So 10 kW supports up to 20A, 20 kW supports up to 40A, etc. I think the Zero S ZF11.4 is a 100 Ah bike.. so the smallest 10 kW charger would still take 5 hours to do a 95% charge.
Bottom line is that residential quick charging is virtually non-existent today, and very expensive. What we need to see for residential charging of our bikes is either chargers designed for lower voltage high current applications .. given that most cars are 300-400V and electric motorcycles are currently low volume, somewhat unlikely .. or redesign the battery packs to use the same high voltage charging that cars do. The way Zero builds its battery packs now (multiple modules in parallel) would need to change .. or they'd have to shift away from using large format pouch batteries back to cylindrical cells.
Edit: corrected Nichicon model number, added info about DC output current restrictions.
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I can't envisage many situations where you would need a 1 hour fast recharge at home. Let's say if you have an extra deltaq and can recharge from dead in 4 hours. How many times would you get home from a 100+ mile ride and then need to go out again for another 100 miles within 4 hours? Fast charging is really for motorway rest stops isn't it?
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I can't envisage many situations where you would need a 1 hour fast recharge at home. Let's say if you have an extra deltaq and can recharge from dead in 4 hours. How many times would you get home from a 100+ mile ride and then need to go out again for another 100 miles within 4 hours? Fast charging is really for motorway rest stops isn't it?
Yes. Always look at it in context. So lets hope that chademo standard gains full traction and is being added to each petrol station. By the way would that leave the battery swap stations in the dust?
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Battery swapping seems incredibly unlikely to me for many reasons. Mostly because the capital investment required is massive. You would need probably 50% more batteries than vehicles sold and trucks to move the batteries around to where they are needed, just like rental car companies do now. Companies can't standardise on a charging connector so they sure as hell aren't going to standardise on an entire battery module. Also, a mum collecting her shopping isn't going to want to lug heavy modules around and if you make them smaller its going to be too many trips to change a whole pack.
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An article in my newspaper today regarding electric cars says that shopping centers with Level 2 chargers are seeing EV owners spend about four times more time shopping than the typical customer. Apparently the Leaf owner drives up, plugs in and heads off shopping, to the food court, or goes to the cinema, for the next few hours. Good for the shopping center, perhaps, but maybe not so good for someone else who also needs to recharge their EV to get back home from their shopping trip. I think the number of charging stations and the number of EVs needing a charge are going to be out of whack for some years to come. ???
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An article in my newspaper today regarding electric cars says that shopping centers with Level 2 chargers are seeing EV owners spend about four times more time shopping than the typical customer. Apparently the Leaf owner drives up, plugs in and heads off shopping, to the food court, or goes to the cinema, for the next few hours. Good for the shopping center, perhaps, but maybe not so good for someone else who also needs to recharge their EV to get back home from their shopping trip. I think the number of charging stations and the number of EVs needing a charge are going to be out of whack for some years to come. ???
I drove 55 miles one way with an electric car for work for some time. Charged while working then drove home. If I needed to go an extra 10 miles or more I still had plenty of charge left so I never needed to look for a place to charge. I'm not sure why on a day to day basis we are assuming that so many people are going to be push right up on the range limit of the electric car. I bet we will see range improve by ~5 miles on average for the next several years on the production electrics. Should really not be long till a typical production electric car will have a mixed driving range of close to 150 miles.
I live in Tacoma WA and the furthest movie theater that I could see ever wanting to go to is 35 miles away on the freeway in Seattle. Even if I just had a 2012 Nissan Leaf I wouldn't need to charge at the theater to make it back home.
I'm a big fan of charging stations but in some ways we are making a very small issue seem like Mt Everest.
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Two quick comments. First Tesla's Model S uses an on board 10KW chareger. A second can be added for $1500. They use ten of these to provide 1C charging of the 85KW Model S pack at dedicated Tesla SuperCharger stations (for free to Model S owners!).
At $1500 retail, the Tesla 10KW charger is not bad value.
Oh, it uses 240V 40 amp service.
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CHAdeMO (DC Fast -charging) is for the longer trips. I don't think a typical home even has enough electricity to power the thing.
I use it when I drive my LEAF on longer drives. I can charge the 21 KWh pack in about half an hour.
While I don't expect people to have a CHAdeMO charger at home I do expect them to be installed across the country so that people don't have to use their gas car (or bike) on long drives.
There is a company that makes DC fast chargers with both types of connectors (SAE and CHAdeMO) - sortof like having the same pump dispense regular gas and diesel, but with two different hoses.
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I think the mentioned Chameleon charger that's fitted on the Renault Zoe sounds very promising.
read more: http://www.plugincars.com/fast-charging-ev-acdc-questions-and-renaults-answers-125421.html (http://www.plugincars.com/fast-charging-ev-acdc-questions-and-renaults-answers-125421.html)
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One thing that most people don't consider but which is very important is that the electricity providers are actually opposed to fast charging. The reason being that they are already struggling to meet peak demand during daytime working hours so the last thing they need is thousands of people drawing 400A on their lunch break.
Overnight charging is a dream come true because they get demand during the night when half their power stations are just ticking over. If everyone was charging a car at night it would level out demand and efficiency would rise dramatically.
Its significant because people will look to the power providers to put up the capital for charging stations but I know that locally at least they will heavily subsidise a charge point on a daily timer but have no interest in Chademo.
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For wide-scale adoption of EV transportation it will be necessary to have charging options for longer drives. The DC fast charging is the solution for this, but people will use them just as frequently as they use the overpriced freeway off-ramp gas stations now.
Regardless of the DC fast charging availability most people will still charge overnight at home for their daily commutes/driving needs. (It's much more convenient and easier on the battery pack).
There is no need to fear a sudden, mass adoption of EV technology that will overload the grid. Even in the best-case-scenario it will take many years to see a significant percentage of drivers make the transition - plenty of time for energy providers to modify/update the grid.
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I agree with @oobflyer, there is plenty of time to adopt infrastructure for EV - but they better start now.
Most EV's will charge mainly overnight but we certainly need infra structure for fast charging as well, or EV's will remain a second vehicle type of choice.
The chameleon charger, I guess it's not very applicable for a Zero anyway. As from what I understand it requires more parts on the vehicle as opposed being in the charger unit, no?
-maybe this topic should be moved to general discussion? -
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Tesla is not waiting on anyone to enable their cars. They are installing fast chargers across the US. California already has sufficient stations to get from LA to San Fran. I believe they have the NY-DC corridor working and will soon have it extended to Boston. They are placed in 150 mile radius circles and provide roughly 100KW charging; the idea being you get 150 miles of charge in a half hour stop. Tesla is doing this with solar panel equipped stations that net meter to the grid with the capital costs being a marketing expense. Charging is free for Model S owners.
The above just might accelerate adoption of this new technology.
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I just did the LA to San Fran ride on the Zero and let me tell you the charging stations are a little thin between San Luis Obispo and King City. With it being below freezing overnight during my ride, and as loaded down and unaerodynamic as I was, I had to do a few level 1 charges waiting in the freezing cold while I wait for the slow drips of electrons at 110v.
San Francisco is even worse. That place sucks if you have an electric vehicle. On christmas, yesterday, I spent 8 hours riding around the city from charging station to charging station only to find they are all located inside a parking garage which is locked. Who the hell locks a freakin parking garage on Christmas??? Are they worried someone will steal their concrete floors or pillars?? I mean really!! San Francisco must hate the environment and electric vehicle owners as they try to look green and sustainable, at least I had that idea before I got there, but they are the worst, because the only reason they would torture EV owners like this is if really they hate us. Otherwise they'd make a rule that charge stations need to be available 24/7. I mean is it fair to say you can have a gasoline car, but you can only dispense gasoline 9-5 Monday thru Friday unless it's a holiday and then you can't dispense gasoline either. Just park your car and wait in it until Monday morning. Seriously? This is the only town I've ever been to that does this, and I've been to a lot of ChargePoint towns.
I'd rather a town only have 2 stations that are available 24/7 than a town have 300 stations and 298 are locked up and you have to drive by each one to find out. Bottom line San Francisco has got to be one of the worst places in the world to live. At least to pass through with some sort of decent expectations. Never again. I'll go out of my way to avoid this hell hole the next time I hit the west coast. People are mean too. No one wants to help, they will kick you out in the rain while trying to look up a charge station on your phone. I guess I'm spoiled by southern hospitality. No one would ever do that there.
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I won't argue with you about SF, Terry. I share your opinions, but there are a lot of people that live there that love the place. I am just one of those that don't get it and therefore live in the 'burbs. I am happy to hear that you made it out of SF without one of your wheels getting trapped in a streetcar or cable car track. Those things, along with all of the city's potholes and other vehicle obstacles, including pedestrians, are tough on motorcycles and scooters. The trolly car tracks parallel many of the streets, are very slippery and are difficult to cross safely when needing to change lanes.
I had no idea that it was going to take you so long to find a charging station in SF. That would have been plenty of time for you to visit my home (10 miles south) and plug into my 120V outlets. With some long extension cords that I have, you could have charged from several different outlets and avoided the universal 15 amp limit. ;)
I hope you were eventually able to find a charging station, survived the heavy showers that we had yesterday afternoon and evening and arrived at your destination safely. I am looking forward to seeing you on the way back. With any luck it will finally start to dry out and you will be able to get through SF without any more hassle. If you are coming down the 101 from the north, across the GG Bridge, I recommend taking the 19th Avenue exit, just past the toll booths, head south on 19th Avenue to the west edge of Golden Gate Park. Then take the last Park road to the right (at the signals) ride along that interior Park road until you come to Sunset Avenue (stop sign controlled), turn left and stay on Sunset until you reach the end of the road, turn right and then left on to Highway 1. Lake Merced will be on your left and the SF Zoo will be on your right. Then continue along Highway 1, which passes through Daly City and its "little boxes". At the top of the hill, you can either take a right and continue down to the coast and into Pacifica and towards my home, or you can go straight along what is now Highway 35, which will eventually take you to I-280 - the gateway to Silicon Valley and all points south.
P.S. I just heard that Highway 1 has been closed south of Big Sur due to a rock slide. CalTrans hopes to have it open sometime next week.
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Here's another question:
After following offthegrid's epic ride across the country and seeing that he did it by using multiple chargers to reduce his down time. Would it make sense for companies to build in multiple charging ports? For example have a 120V port and a J1772 port that can be used simultaneously in a stock bike.
Or perhaps 2 J1772 ports so you could plug 2 fast chargers in and save time!
Another idea I had was to make commercial chargers that use one plug with 3 lines, each connected to 240V of electric juiciness. It would probably be oblong, but looks aren't everything, especially if it could charge your motorcycle or car in 15 minutes!
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Benswing I use both the J1772 and 120v level 1 port at charging stations sometimes to pull over 8000 watts to charge in 45 min. Most times I just use the J port to charge at 7k-7200w. If I had a larger battery pack and could charge at no more than 1C I could easily use 2 J plugs as may times they are sise by side or many in a row and pull 14,000 watts. You can do anything you want. It's all about understanding what's available, and using it to the maximum if you're short on time, or softly charging at say 4,000 watts if you're taking it easy. Charging overnight at 1kw? I try not to sleep. Too much riding to do.
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offthegrid, how many of the J1772 chargers in the wild are 15A vs 30A?
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offthegrid, that is exactly what inspired me to post about this idea! Did you talk with Zero about building bikes with the hardware already installed to charge via J1772 and 120V simultaneously? I'm sure it would cost more, but I would love to have the ability to double charge on a production bike!
I think it would speed up the whole electric vehicle adoption by the general public by reducing charging times quickly without waiting for new technology to jump from the lab bench to production vehicles.
Also, did they mention anything about where they are going in terms of faster charging in the future?
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offthegrid, that is exactly what inspired me to post about this idea! Did you talk with Zero about building bikes with the hardware already installed to charge via J1772 and 120V simultaneously? I'm sure it would cost more, but I would love to have the ability to double charge on a production bike!
I think it would speed up the whole electric vehicle adoption by the general public by reducing charging times quickly without waiting for new technology to jump from the lab bench to production vehicles.
Also, did they mention anything about where they are going in terms of faster charging in the future?
As discussed earlier in this thread, the future of charging is going towards DC Fast Charging. The CHAdeMO allows fast charging times without the expensive and heavy equipment being on the bike. Terry is able to fast charge his bike using a J1772 and 120V plug simultaneously because he has a couple thousand dollars worth of chargers and more than a few extra pounds on board. Putting this hardware on board not only increases the price but increases the weight significantly which would seem to conflict with Zero's mantra.
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Putting this hardware on board not only increases the price but increases the weight significantly which would seem to conflict with Zero's mantra.
I agree. I suppose if I was only riding paved roads I wouldn't care if the bike weighed 1000 pounds. The reason I'm switching from the DS to the FX this year is because the 2013 DS has gotten too heavy for something I want to take through sand and rocks (I'm not talking pea gravel here). At least the weight increase in the 2013 DS has been primarily in battery capacity so it results in more mileage. A heavy charger on board doesn't do anything for the rider during the ride. If one wants to carry a heavy charger to get back on the road quickly then a good rear rack, to strap one on, is the ticket.
JMHO, Trikester
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Harlan, do you know how much a CHAdeMO charger costs? I thought the chargers themselves cost more since they have to convert AC to DC current.
I've seen J1772 chargers for residential use for about $800 at Home Depot. How much are CHAdeMO chargers? We don't have any in the NYC metro area.
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November 2011 Nissan announced a 600k yen ($6700 USD) and 800k ($8900 USD) yen indoor and outdoor CHAdeMO chargers.
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/111130-01-e.html (http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/111130-01-e.html)
June 2012 Nissan announced the US availability of the $9900 and $15500 basic and advanced chargers.
http://myelifenow.blogspot.com/2012/06/nissan-dc-quick-charger-arrives-in-us.html (http://myelifenow.blogspot.com/2012/06/nissan-dc-quick-charger-arrives-in-us.html)
Currently only the advanced unit is available at $15500.
http://nissanqc.com/ (http://nissanqc.com/)
Nissan's chargers all use 480V input, so very unlikely to be used in a residential setting. For residential service you would need something like the $25000 ORCA Mobile charger discussed here (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2604.msg11067#msg11067).
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I've seen J1772 chargers for residential use for about $800 at Home Depot. How much are CHAdeMO chargers? We don't have any in the NYC metro area.
As discussed in a few threads, a J1772 station is not a charger, it is AC outlet. That $800 is the cost of the plug, cable, some electronics and a relay to add some "safety" to the system. The actual device that converts the power to charge the battery is onboard the vehicle, and if you have a 9kW onboard charger, you paid several thousand dollars for that in the price of the car, and you carry it around with you everywhere you go. You can purchase a J1172 connector for around $100 and I believe you can wire it up to a regular drier plug (40A 240VAC) and get it to work with most cars. The new SAE J1772 plug with DC capabilities will be an actual charger, but the size of the connector is not something that will fit easily in a motorcycle.
The price of Chademo chargers is coming down, perhaps by companies wanting to get them installed quickly so that people start using them, and don't start making competing charge "standards" (Tesla, and SAE already have) Maybe there will be smaller 3kW or 5kW Chademo compatible chargers for home use available for $2k, if there were a market for it.
-ryan
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offthegrid, how many of the J1772 chargers in the wild are 15A vs 30A?
I don't know any public stations that are 15A. I think all are 30A or 32A. A few stations in Florida I could run 3 delta Q's and 2 elcons and pull 7600 watts briefly when the pack voltage was low from just the J port. But out west I've blown 50+ stations using just 2 elcons and 2 delta Q's. (Blown meaning I get an overcurrent fault from the station and it shuts down and has to be reset.) Chargepoint is just north of Zero HQ in Campbell and I was supposed to stop in 2 weeks ago and talk to them about this. I did stop by and talk to a lot of their engineers but the specific person was gone for the holidays.
The fault lies first whether the service feed is 208V 220v 230 or 240. 208v@32A=6.66 kw vs. 240v@32A=7.68kw Also if the property owner decided to put the station on the far corner end of the parking lot and there is a long copper run and he cut installation cost by going with the minimum gauge wire required by code, there will be a small compounded voltage drop. To compensate, and output the same wattage, the current has to go up.
Since the Tesla model S also charges at 7 kw from J1772 ports, Chargepoint wants my log of all the crappy stations I've visited across the country with poor installations that won't deliver 6600 watts without faulting and I've been to quite a few.
Some of those stations i was the first to ever use, and most others in dense areas the station gets used often by Volt's and Leaf's and MiEV's but never has ever had to deliver more than 3.3kw until I plugged my bike in and shut the whole thing down.
Harlan was with me in Beverly Hills the second day I was in town on the way to the IMS with him and Brandon when I faulted a charge point station in the parking garage of the Tennis Club, AND with a low battery (constant current chargers pull less watts when the pack voltage is low). That poor station in Beverly Hills could barely do 6100 watts.
But this year with the 7kw charging Tesla S and the 2013 Leaf which will charge at 6.6 kw, so there is an incentive to fix these below par stations quickly. Like the ones is slumlord towns where they cut costs on installations like Beverly Hills. ;)
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offthegrid, that is exactly what inspired me to post about this idea! Did you talk with Zero about building bikes with the hardware already installed to charge via J1772 and 120V simultaneously? I'm sure it would cost more, but I would love to have the ability to double charge on a production bike!
I think it would speed up the whole electric vehicle adoption by the general public by reducing charging times quickly without waiting for new technology to jump from the lab bench to production vehicles.
Also, did they mention anything about where they are going in terms of faster charging in the future?
Ben as Harlan and Biff mentioned here, I don't think production bikes will come with lots of onboard AC chargers installed. It's possible as chargers get more efficient, more powerful, smaller, lighter and less expensive you might see aftermarket upgrades to allow faster AC charging.
But remember, the more times you charge faster, the more you heat the battery pack, and eventually you will see a slightly reduced range, granted it may be over 1000 cycles like this but still if you don't need to charge quickly, don't do it on a regular basis. Even with all my chargers, when staying in a hotel, I charge with just 1 Delta Q overnight, unless I'm going to sleep for less than 4-6 hours to get back on the road, then I might use 2.
To go back to charger technology, there is a company I believe called ElTek that is making a 3kw automotive charger in 3 flavors between 70v and 420v DC in a small form factor that weighs about 6 pounds. (about 1/2 the weight and 3.5x the power of a Delta Q) They have extremely high efficiency and so generate less waste heat than the PFC chargers from Delta Q and Elcon which are already better than non Power Factor Corrected chargers. But it may be a few years before the price on those is reasonable.
I believe because the Nissan Leaf has a built in CHAdeMO, and there are Leafs everywhere now, I think in the next few months, these chargers will start popping up everywhere.
My recommendation to everyone here is to talk to Harlan from Hollywood Electrics and place an order for a 2013 model Zero. ***ESPECIALLY*** if you look at the map and you already have tons of CHAdeMO stations in your area!!! - (Washington, Oregon, San Fran, LA/San Diego, Houston, Dallas, Tennessee, Phoenix, Chicago, Indianapolis and more growing every day! Each time i look at the map there's a handful more stations that weren't there the other day.
Bottom line: It's happening, and coming to a town near you. Get a 2013 Zero and save yourself a lot of headache, cost, weight, cords and installation complication. Just my 2 cents, but then again, having "been there, done that" I hope my opinion means something to you guys here.
Plus I've seen the 2013 Zero's first hand. Trust me, this is what you want. Did I mention that brand new designed 102 volt motor with a built in heatsink all around it and 50% more power? I mean is it even a question?
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Bottom line: It's happening, and coming to a town near you. Get a 2013 Zero and save yourself a lot of headache, cost, weight, cords and installation complication.
Thanks for the response, offthegrid. I was thinking about buying a 2013 bike, but need to wait at least one more year before buying a new vehicle (bought a car in '11 and a Zero S ZF9 in '12). Also, the nearest CHAdeMO charging station to me (near NYC) is in Toronto, Canada about 470 miles away. Once there are CHAdeMO chargers available nearby, I will be more tempted to make the jump.
Also Biff, thanks for the explanation of the differences between the J1772 outlet and the CHAdeMO charger.
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Unfortunately Terry we can't all afford to blow £12k on a 2013 having just spent the same 6 months ago on a 2012 so extra chargers are still worth researching.
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Man, I'd love to. Part of me wished I had waited, as I'm riding very little at the moment. But I have a house to buy first, and I want to let the 2013s "age" a bit and get any recalls out of the way :)
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Ben as Harlan and Biff mentioned here, I don't think production bikes will come with lots of onboard AC chargers installed. It's possible as chargers get more efficient, more powerful, smaller, lighter and less expensive you might see aftermarket upgrades to allow faster AC charging.
But remember, the more times you charge faster, the more you heat the battery pack, and eventually you will see a slightly reduced range, granted it may be over 1000 cycles like this but still if you don't need to charge quickly, don't do it on a regular basis. Even with all my chargers, when staying in a hotel, I charge with just 1 Delta Q overnight, unless I'm going to sleep for less than 4-6 hours to get back on the road, then I might use 2.
I think we'll slowly see faster AC charging - between the better efficiencies of the 2013 bike and the 1.3 kW charger, it charges twice as fast as the 2012 bikes in terms of highway miles per hour. Extreme modifications to bike packaging probably aren't worthwhile in commuter applications.
To go back to charger technology, there is a company I believe called ElTek that is making a 3kw automotive charger in 3 flavors between 70v and 420v DC in a small form factor that weighs about 6 pounds. (about 1/2 the weight and 3.5x the power of a Delta Q) They have extremely high efficiency and so generate less waste heat than the PFC chargers from Delta Q and Elcon which are already better than non Power Factor Corrected chargers. But it may be a few years before the price on those is reasonable.
The Empulse uses the Eltek 3500 charger. It's liquid-cooled. I'd really like to see Brammo offer a two-charger configuration for touring purposes - giving the same 30A AC charging capability as your bike - but I understand the first charger already compromises packaging by elevating the pillion seat position.
I believe because the Nissan Leaf has a built in CHAdeMO, and there are Leafs everywhere now, I think in the next few months, these chargers will start popping up everywhere.
CHAdeMO definitely has a head start on SAE/J1772 DC, but I think we're going to see a significant standards war that hurts charger infrastructure rollout. BMW, GM, Ford, VW are committed to the SAE DC plug. Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and now Zero support the CHAdeMO plug.
It's a mess. And it makes me mad. There probably are some technical advantages of the SAE plug, but this feels very much like a political fight .. and it'll be EV owners, would-be owners, and early infrastructure supporters that get burned.
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Nissan is pledging to bring 500 new CHAdeMO quick chargers to the US over the next 18 months, including 40 to the DC area.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/)
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Nissan is pledging to bring 500 new CHAdeMO quick chargers to the US over the next 18 months, including 40 to the DC area.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/)
Way to go, Nissan! ;D
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CHAdeMO definitely has a head start on SAE/J1772 DC, but I think we're going to see a significant standards war that hurts charger infrastructure rollout. BMW, GM, Ford, VW are committed to the SAE DC plug. Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and now Zero support the CHAdeMO plug.
This is my understanding of the situation as well. Thanks!
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Add Tesla to the list as supporting CHAdeMO as well, via an adapter. At least in Japan, and there's some noise (http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-and-chademo) about bringing this to the US sooner rather than later.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/11/tesla-model-s-will-have-available-chademo-adaptor-in-japan/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/11/tesla-model-s-will-have-available-chademo-adaptor-in-japan/)
So there's something like... 40k Nissan Leafs sold worldwide, maybe 5k Mitsubishi i-MiEVs, and 3k Tesla Model S vehicles that support CHAdeMO. 2000+ chargers on the ground right now.
SAE DC?
0 cars in customer hands. Chevy Spark EV coming this year. BMW i3 coming who knows when.
0 public charging stations. Possible to adapt some existing CHAdeMO stations to SAE.
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It seems likely that there will be chargers that have both SAE Combo, and Chademo connectors, since the power electronics actually doing the work are the same.
I did a quick search, and it seems that this company is doing just that.
http://www.ies-synergy.com/en/chargers/keywatt-charging-stations-power-modules/chademo-combo-modules-public-charging (http://www.ies-synergy.com/en/chargers/keywatt-charging-stations-power-modules/chademo-combo-modules-public-charging)
Electric vehichles are still in there infancy, what are the chances that either of these standards are still the leader 10 years from now? Who still regularly uses their VCR?
I know it hasn't been brought up yet, but the first thing that comes to many peoples' minds when looking into the future is Wireless charging. Wireless charging is a dream. Until you get 99.9% efficient wireless transmission of power, you are wasting a significant amount of money to save yourself from a maximum of 10 seconds to plug in your vehicle, and then if your technology gets outdated, there may be no way to use the "new and improved" wireless charging stations. With wired technology, you should always be able to have some sort of adaptor box, as long as your battery voltage is in the range of the new charger, that would let you plug in with minimal difficulty.
I imagine that since electric vehicles are much more expesive that VCR casettes, and we don't predict battery voltages changing drastically over the next 10 years, these companies are expecting their standards to last a long time.
I still think that most chargers 5 years from now will have both Chademo and SAE J1772 combo output cables, and that you will be able to purchase a device that converts one to the other, but it won't be cheap since the connectors themselves are a couple hundred dollars each right now.
-ryan
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It's smart for the charger manufacturers to hedge their bets for now. So dual cable chargers may become the norm.
Adapters, at least at first, will likely cost a couple grand. Zero's CHAdeMO inlet is reportedly $1800 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1814.msg13904#msg13904). I could see prices for adapters dropping to a couple hundred dollars in significant volume .. with time.
Wireless charging can be pretty efficient. I see numbers around 90% efficient (just the transmission link). For opportunity charging (7 kW AC) that's probably fine. You probably wouldn't charge at home with wireless.. but who knows. A Leaf charged on wireless will be more efficient than an electric SUV charged with a wired connection.
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I guess the thing that most irritates me about J1772 DC is that it's a hypocritical standard.
SAE makes the following arguments:
1. A combo inlet which offers compatibility with the thousands of installed J1772 EVSE is very important. Slimmer, more elegant designs like the Tesla Model S that transmit AC/DC power over a common set of conductive pins are disqualified for this reason.
2. A combo inlet which breaks compatibility with the thousands of installed CHAdeMO chargers is of no consequence.
3. Every existing J1772 AC-compatible EV owner? Yeah, fuck you.
J1772 combo offers compatibility in only one direction: J1772 combo inlets on NEW vehicles can accept either existing J1772 AC or J1772 combo.
J1772 AC inlets on EXISTING vehicles do not appear to be physically compatible with the AC component of the combo plug - perhaps by design. Not the Empulse. Not the Leaf. Not the Focus EV or Volt (remember that both Ford and GM are SAE supporters). This means charging existing vehicles will either require a separate J1772 AC EVSE or separate AC and DC cablesets and plugs on the SAE charger. Same thing that CHAdeMO must do.
Going forward, J1772 combo offers IMO only one advantage over CHAdeMO: J1772 combo inlet is about as big as CHAdeMO inlet, and about half the size of J1772 AC + CHAdeMO. Inlet costs hopefully will drop (CHAdeMO inlets are not inexpensive, see above) .. and may not, depending upon the cost of the Homeplug Green PHY adapter. So there's that.
But still .. the J1772 combo smells. It smells like "not-designed-here" disease.
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My concern about charging stations near public shopping areas and businesses is that they will be used for long-term parking, as well as charging, meaning that when you drive up to a charging station you will not be able to use it until the owner of the car returns from shopping, watching a movie, or at the end of the work day. Fast charging on the road is great - but only if you can find an open charging station - and of course one that has been properly maintained or has not been vandalized and that still works. I don't know what the solution is for this issue. ??? Maybe charging by the minute for parking as well as the electrical usage?
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Only really two things you can do:
1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.
I like #2 more than #1.
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Only really two things you can do:
1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.
I like #2 more than #1.
Another couple advantages to #2 is that you could put more charging stations without the shops being concerned that you are essentially removing some prime parking spots infront of their establishment, so more places woud be willing to have them installed, and that they would likely be closer to the roads where they can actually be seen by more people. The down side is that power might be more difficult to access away from already established structures.
in your previous comment Protomec you make some good points. My opinion of EV wireless charging doesn't change with the power of the charger. Even at home with a 2kW charger or something, you still want to fill a your battery, and you would pay for 10%less energy if you plugged it in vs using a 90%efficient wireless charging method. I can see how some people might think that it is worth paying a 10%preimium on electricty to charge their car with the convenence of a wireless charger, but I don't see the appeal to the added expense / careless use of our resources.
-ryan
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3. Every existing J1772 AC-compatible EV owner? Yeah, fuck you.
J1772 combo offers compatibility in only one direction: J1772 combo inlets on NEW vehicles can accept either existing J1772 AC or J1772 combo.
The picture of the combo plug I see is unfortunately blocked by the bodywork of most existing J1772 compatible vehicles, but the AC portion looks the same. I wonder if the plug could be easily engineered so that the DC terminals are on a separate sliding sub-chassis and you can plug in just an AC plug, or slide the DC portion forward to plug in together. If the DC terminals are not slid forward when the AC starts communicating with the car, they would be disabled for safety.
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Only really two things you can do:
1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.
I like #2 more than #1.
Another couple advantages to #2 is that you could put more charging stations without the shops being concerned that you are essentially removing some prime parking spots infront of their establishment, so more places woud be willing to have them installed, and that they would likely be closer to the roads where they can actually be seen by more people. The down side is that power might be more difficult to access away from already established structures.
in your previous comment Protomec you make some good points. My opinion of EV wireless charging doesn't change with the power of the charger. Even at home with a 2kW charger or something, you still want to fill a your battery, and you would pay for 10%less energy if you plugged it in vs using a 90%efficient wireless charging method. I can see how some people might think that it is worth paying a 10%preimium on electricty to charge their car with the convenence of a wireless charger, but I don't see the appeal to the added expense / careless use of our resources.
-ryan
I dont believe that current wireless charging is anywhere close to 90% efficient. Part of the point of an EV is that we arent wasting energy. Is plugging in a single cable really that difficult?
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I dont believe that current wireless charging is anywhere close to 90% efficient. Part of the point of an EV is that we arent wasting energy. Is plugging in a single cable really that difficult?
Well, that's the claim.
From a BBC report (http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121120-pulling-the-plug-on-electric-cars) on wireless car charging:
“Tests show the system is more than 90% efficient compared to a cable charge,†he says and the car does not even need to be perfectly aligned with the device. As a result, it could be built into low street curbs over which the car-borne magnet (which is installed under the bonnet) would hang, he says.
From an efficiency point of view, I agree that wireless charging is never a win. However, consider that wireless charging is still generally more efficient than an ICE vehicle - so if it sways someone to choose electric over gas, then it is probably a net win.
Wireless charging also has a huge convenience advantage over wired charging for short stops. A 15 minute stop may only give you a few miles - you might not bother to plug in with a wired connection, especially if your hands were full on either end. But that's still a few miles worth of charge.
Wireless charging also *should* be more resistant to vandalism - thick lengths of copper cable are sometimes snipped & stolen - and it may even be cheaper to lay out new parking lots with multiple units vs buying a J1772 EVSE for every 2-4 parking spots.
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Another company that seems to be putting its eggs in all the baskets: ABB
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02/abb-20130213.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/02/abb-20130213.html)
http://www.abb.com/product/seitp332/4c1445c10a695472c1257a9a0035bd9a.aspx?productLanguage=us&country=US (http://www.abb.com/product/seitp332/4c1445c10a695472c1257a9a0035bd9a.aspx?productLanguage=us&country=US)
-ryan
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Without reading this entire lengthy thread (sorry, I only stop by once every 2 months!), my vote is for compatibility with Tesla Superchargers :) Seriously, all it NEEDS is a NEMA 14-50 plug, and it will be fine, and these are all over the place (RV parks) and CHEAP to install. In an emergency, most houses have them if they have relatively new ranges. It's what I use with my Tesla at home and is completely sufficient. Road trips where you are time-limited are the only situations where you need anything more.