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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: trikester on February 16, 2013, 12:51:10 AM
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Now that Zero is openly selling the components and kits for their entire 2013 power-train I will soon start a project to convert one of my home-built (Yamaha) trikes from gas to electric. The trike I will use is my second one, which was made from a 2006 TW200 dual-sport motorcycle. Both of the Yamaha conversion trikes I have built have been very successful dual-sport, street legal, ATC's and have seen lots of dirt and pavement. Now I'm so spoiled by electric propulsion I don't ride them anymore :-[
I will post the progress and photos under this thread so please don't hijack and change the subject in replies. Also I will answer any questions about the project, unless an answer would violate the non-disclosure agreement I will have with Zero.
The project will not start in earnest for several weeks as I clear my calendar of other things and will also be dependent on shipments from Zero.
I'll start now by attaching a photo of the trike I will be converting. This one is newer and has less mileage than my first trike.
Trikester
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Sweet! Looking forward to it :)
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This should be interesting. :)
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Looking forward to following this thread. Obviously I missed the fact that you can buy components. Can someone start a new thread with those details if this is not the right place.
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Inquire of Zero.
Trikester
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I was getting ready to sell my 2012 S-9 because I can no longer ride on two wheels.
I would like to do this trike conversion also. What parts are you getting from Zero?
Is the front end still available as a kit?
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I'll be getting the whole drive-train kit from Zero. I haven't decided yet for sure but at this point I'm planning on the 5.8 kw (2 batt modules) with the 400 amp controller and the 75.7 motor.
I built the two trikes each starting with a TW200 motorcycle and then using all of the front end components from the YFZ450, Yamaha ATV. Plus the sway-bar from the Yamaha Grizzly 660 quad. There has never been a kit for this and I definitely needed my machine shop tools (mill, lathe, shear, brake,etc.) Plus the services of an excellent TIG welding person and lots of chromoly steel tubing. The front end parts etc., cost in the neighborhood of $5K The first trike cost me about $12K and the second one about $10K to build (including the bikes). When I add the approx $7,500 for the Zero power-train to the second trike I'll be at about what I paid to buy my CanAm Spyder, when they first came out. But I'll bet I'll ride it more than the Spyder.
I'll attach a photo of both of my "Yamaha" trikes. The things that look like drum brakes on the front are not. They are adapters I designed and machined to adapt the TW200 motorcycle front wheels to the ATV hubs so I could use the stock hydraulic disk brakes from the YFZ450. I'm proud that both came out looking like they were factory built. That was the first comment a Yamaha dealer said when he saw them.
I doubt that Yamaha would ever produce a trike conversion kit because of the liability. They all got scared away by the rear-dual-wheel trikes commonly called ATC's and the numerous law suits. All trikes should be built with the dual wheels in front so that a tip-over can be stopped by quick deceleration or braking. The rear-wheel trikes just flip faster when you try to burn off speed. Also you can't run over your own foot if both wheels are in front. ;D Many of those law suits were about that.
Sorry I don't have an easy answer for you to build a trike from a 2 wheel motorcycle. But if you decide to go that route your have my many good wishes for success. 8)
I hope this serves to answer all future questions about building the trike itself. My focus here will be on the conversion to electric power. :)
Trikester
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Speaking of trikes: http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/patents-reveal-polaris-developing-trike-91521.html?utm_source=mo02212013&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly (http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/patents-reveal-polaris-developing-trike-91521.html?utm_source=mo02212013&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly)
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I will post the progress and photos under this thread so please don't hijack and change the subject in replies.
We do have a habit of going off-topic (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2503.0) on Trikester's threads, but let's not go to far on the discussion about 'the other trike' here. ;)
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We do have a habit of going off-topic on Trikester's threads, but let's not go to far on the discussion about 'the other trike' here. ;)
Thanks Tudor! :)
As I mentioned before I want to document the progress of the conversion of my gas trike to Zero's electric drive components here. Not discuss the merits or demerits of trikes, or brands of trikes, or building trikes. Someone else can start a thread on that if they wish, but I would think that unless their trike thread is all about electric trikes it wouldn't fit the electric forum purpose.
Triokester
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If all goes well with my return from Utah this week I will start dismantling the ICE parts from my trike in preparation for the electric conversion. I received the 2013 FX drive-train components just before I left for Utah, so I wasn't able to begin work on the conversion.
The first thing I need to do is to get my trike started so I can drive it to my shop. Last time I tried, the whole electrical system was dead. >:(
Been having fun in Utah but now it's time to get serious! ;D
Trikester
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Hi Trikster,
Now that you have your FX drivetrain, can you give us a better idea of the cost and the component list. This setup will be so much more reliable and complete than me buying a million parts from different vendors. I for one would appreciate it as I am working on a reverse trike too. I do not see this being offered through their website and do not want to start calling them until I have all the necessary details in place.
Thanks
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I purchased the FX drivetrain kit from Zero. "Out the door" total cost with CA sales tax was $8,800 and change. I had added the Hv to 12v converter for lights etc. I still need to purchase the throttle assembly which I didn't realize was not included. I guees that is because Zero doesn't know what the end use will be.
They have a complete list of kits and individual parts with prices. You will have to sing a non-disclosuer agreement and have that on file at Zero before any purchase.
I'm still waiting for a schematic, although it probably isn't necessary since things plug together. However, being a retired electronics eng It just doesn't feel right to proceed without a schematic.
Trikester
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Thanks a bunch Trikester and yes I will need the 12v converter too so the price with it is even better.
I am assuming that this is for the 5.7kw setup. BTW, I have looked and the off the shelf cost of something like the Agni with all the add ons is at leat $8000 brand new and it is not plug and play. I wish you and zero luck.
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A little spendy, but probably about right for an OEM-equality powertrain. I assume that's batteries + charger + controller + motor?
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A little spendy, but probably about right for an OEM-equality powertrain. I assume that's batteries + charger + controller + motor?
Correct, including wiring harness. As mentioned, I also had added the HV to 12 V DC / DC converter which isn't included in the kit. I still need the throttle assembly, but the throttle wiring was included.
As far as I know, the Bluetooth is not available, probably because Zero doesn't want other manufacturers to have their App software.
Trikester
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Started the tearing down process today. The E-conversion project is finally underway. :)
Sure hope I can make all of the Zero FX components fit. Of course I'll start with the motor position. Until the motor is mounted in the best position I can achieve, relative to the swing-arm pivot, I won't even think about the other stuff.
Photo is prior to start of tear-down.
Trikester
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Best you but a folding cot in your garage ;D
Will be thrilling to see your progress. I admire what you are doing 8)
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Yeah, I sure got "cold feet" at time while approaching this project. I had to keep reminding myself of how much I enjoy solving design and engineering problems, especially when the project is for me (no client or employer questions and objections to answer).
Since I retired in 2000 I've had several of these kinds of projects (like the two Yamaha trike conversions for example). I started to realize that it had been too long since I had started anything that took longer than a few days to complete. So here I am now and looking forward to a challenging project, even with the occasional "cold feet".
Several years ago I decided to find a way to put a hydraulic disk front brake on a 1947 Matchless motorcycle. I can remember going home (my shop is several miles from my home, and not in my garage, which she likes) several times in the evening and telling my wife that I had just spent a whole day problem solving.
Trikester
BTW - The front disk brake works great on the 1947 bike. See photo.
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Looks good,
did you remove the left fender mount for the photo or for ever?
I have to admit, I would like to have a fender like this at my DS, I somehow like this old stile and good protection but the mounting at the fork is not easy and if it is not trustable and got tangled I wouldn't like to ride my bike. Still playing with the 2012 XU fender idea.
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I had to remove the lower left fender stay to make room for the brake caliper. I didn't want to alter any original parts so instead of cutting one side of the lower stay off, I fabricated a new right side lower stay that looks just like the original, on that side.
Very observant of you!
A lot of "head scratching" today in figuring out how I'm going to mount the two Zero batteries. Looks like they will go up where the gas tank used to be, so my knees will be gripping the sides of the batteries. Maybe I'll bond on a couple of those rubber John Bull - British gas tank knee pads. ;)
Here's a photo of the trike stripped of its former 200cc noisy glory. :o
Trikester
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Mounting the motor went very well. It looks simple now but of course it took some thinking to figure out what I was going to do. :P
I was able to utilize the main structural areas that were used to mount the gas engine. They worked out well for the rear of the Zero motor. The two areas were the swing arm pivot shaft and the front downtube. The mounting is very ridged and should have very little deflection under max torque.
There has been no modification of the trike frame at this point (other than cutting off some small unneeded flanges).
Trikester
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Here's a photo of the two batteries' base support "shelf".
After strapping the batteries in place, using a Harley Davidson brand bike strap (oh, the horrors of it all) I put the seat on and sat on the trike to see how it felt with the width of the batteries. It doesn't seem to be any problem and in fact it should be easier to stabilize myself going around curves. Remember, trikes don't lean - they try to throw you off.
I spent today thinking about how I was going to restrain the batteries on the shelf. I now have decided on a design for that function that I think will work well.
Trikester
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Great job,
the batteries are side by side, one right one left on the shelf?
I really like to follow your thread, can see your sleepless nights, hundreds ideas and study the pros and cons. It's the nature of a real developer heart.
The Trike looks like you can spend a whole day on it, I think (not taking money in account) I couldn't resists to but 2 more batteries like saddle bags on the bike and make it for longer distance.
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the batteries are side by side, one right one left on the shelf?
Yes, one on each side of the frame. Before I got into the project I thought I would have more room for the batteries.
I could probably carry one extra battery on the rear rack but it would need more support for the weight. I could then swap out one battery for a longer ride. I also could make a carrier for another battery on the front. A trike offers more possibilities for carrying stuff than a two wheeler. It's going to be interesting to find out how much less mileage I get with three wheels on the ground compared to my FX. Also, on the highway I'll have more wind resistance.
With the method for holding the batteries that I now have in mind, it would take longer to remove a battery than it does with my FX, but it still wouldn't be a big deal. Probably swap a battery in five to ten minutes. Not too bad considering, as we all know, we want to get off the bike for awhile anyway on longer rides.
Trikester
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Geees!!! you got that 75-5 motor?
How much did you paid it? moto only? ( i'm looking to get the 75-7 to upgrad emy 2011 Zero whne i'll finish the battery voltage upgrade..
did you bought the Sevcon size 4 gen4 too?
Doc
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Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« Reply #25 on: Today at 08:38:13 PM »
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Geees!!! you got that 75-5 motor?
How much did you paid it? moto only? ( i'm looking to get the 75-7 to upgrad emy 2011 Zero whne i'll finish the battery voltage upgrade..
did you bought the Sevcon size 4 gen4 too?
I bought the entire 2013 FX powertrain kit from Zero, The only extras I had to add (so far) were the HV to 12vdc converter and the throttle assembly plus the chain sprocket for the motor shaft.
Zero has a catalog of powertrain individual components and complete (mostly) kits, with prices. It includes the wiring harness. You can check with their marketing staff. They did require me to sign a non-disclosure agreement. :-X
I'm assuming that their business goal is to sell in quantity to other OEM's, not generally to hobbyists like me, but I'm pleased that they didn't exclude my "one off" project either. This business decision by Zero could lead to a lot of development by individuals (with the cash to spend) in the electric vehicle area. I'm waiting to see the FX power system in an ultralight aircraft! If I was 40 years younger that could be me. I was flying hang gliders back then. :o
Attaching a photo viewed from the front with the batteries temporarily strapped in place.
Trikester
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Beautiful work! One day when I grow up I hope to have some of those mad fab skillz.
I notice your brackets block the ends of about half the cooling fins. Do you think that will compromise the cooling much?
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I don't think there is much air flow off the ends of the fins. It's too bad that the fins aren't radial around the case but I can see how that would be very difficult to cast. Overall, the fins should be more exposed to airflow on the trike than they are on my FX. The motor on the FX is mostly buried down there. Time will tell if there is a cooling problem, and if there is, I can cut away portions of the plates to open up more exposure.
I haven't decided yet if I want to put a large hole in the middle of the front motor mount plate. I don't want to make it too flexible in twist under motor torque stress, because it's mounted at the rear of the motor instead of the shaft end. Under load the shaft end will try to rise up, so the mounting plates have to resist a twisting force as well as a vertical force.
Trikester
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I'm waiting to see the FX power system in an ultralight aircraft! If I was 40 years younger that could be me. I was flying hang gliders back then. :o
Trikester
Hmmm... You think it has enough power to do that?
now that certainly peaked my interest......
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OK, Trikster, I'm with you. Stumbled across this thread with a reverse trike / TW200 conversion that is slated to become electric. I have a 95' TW200 myself and love it.
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Hmmm... You think it has enough power to do that?
It has enough power, but I don't know what the flight time would be. It would be best if used to takeoff and arrive at altitude and then use thermals to soar to get an extended flight time. An electric airplane has set a 200mph speed record. Interesting that it was the same week that the electric motorcycle record of 200mph was set at Bonneville.
Trikester
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Here's an example ultralight:
http://www.beliteaircraft.com/ultralight-aircrafts/ (http://www.beliteaircraft.com/ultralight-aircrafts/)
The lightest configuration has a 28 HP F-33 Hirth (http://www.recpower.com/F-33%202%20cycle%2028hp.htm) 2 stroke single cylinder engine. Weight varies between 35 to 45 pounds depending on options. 5 gallon fuel tank will weigh about 30 pounds.
I don't know a weight for the 75-5 motor used in the FX, but I'll guess around 30 pounds .. each ZF2.8 battery module weighs 42 pounds. A Size 4 controller weighs about 6 pounds.
Call the remainder of the powertrain equipment - fuel pumps, fuel tank, fuel lines for the gas powertrain, copper cabling for the Zero - even.
65 pounds gas vs 120 pounds electric.. so 55 pound weight gain vs minimum weight Belite. That should still be in the right ballpark - the heaviest Belite configuration weighs approximately 50 pounds more than the F-33.
Belite lists a 55-62 mph cruise speed, with fuel consumption rates for the F-33 between 2.5 - 3.8 GPH (1.5 - 2.0 hours flight time). Looking at Hirth's website, this puts the HP ratings between 22-28 hp required (fuel consumption varies hugely based upon engine RPM).
At 22 HP = 16.5 kW output, the Zero battery pack would be drained in approximately 0.3 hours. At 28 HP = 21 kW output, the Zero battery pack would be drained in 0.24 hours.
So flight range would be much shorter in this application than two wheeled riding range, approximately 15-17 miles in the air versus ~45 miles on the ground.
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Thanks for the info but we are getting off my thread topic now. I'm not building an electric powered aircraft.
Trikester
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Here are a couple of photos of the battery retainer strap. It is shown closed with the battery in place and open with the battery out.
The upper part of this strap will be covered by the cut down TW gas tank which will be my trim over the batteries and the top tube. In order to remove the batteries in the completed trike, the seat and the dummy tank will have to be removed. Therefore it would be more difficult for someone to steal the batteries. I'm guessing that with dedicated tools I will be able to swap batteries in 5 to 10 minutes.
Trikester
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Here's an old TW200 gas tank cut to become trim over the batteries and upper frame. Also to support the front of the seat as the original was. The very clean tank that I took off the trike will be kept as is, to sell. I don't even remember how I happened to have this old tank but I'm glad I did.
Now I'm getting close to begin working with the cable harness and mounting the various electronic assemblies. This is the scariest part of the project. ???
Trikester
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I finally got the Sevcon 4 mounted inside the frame cage. I had to do some carving on the heatsink to miss some things but it all ended up pretty good. I can't put the whole unit in as one piece. I first put a thin layer of silicone grease on the heatsink and the back of the controller to fill voids and help heat transfer from the Sevcon to the heatsink. Then, like working a Chinese puzzle, I get the Sevcon into the frame cage. Next I bolt the heatsink onto its frame mount. Finally I bolt the Sevcon to the heatsink.
The photos are left side and right side views. In the right side view you can also see the Sevcon HVDC to 12 VDC converter mounted across the back of the motor mounts.
Next thing (& last) to find a mounting position for is the MBB. I think it will end up on the frame behind the steering shaft ("X" shaped member). The little basic dashboard they supply with the powertrain kit will go where the filler cap was on the gas tank. The tank has been cut and re-painted to be used as the body trim above the batteries and under the seat front.
I will be using the off-board charger so I don't need to find a way to mount that item.
Trikester
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Good progress.
Can you comment on how far away I can mount the battery modules from the controller and the motor.
1. Does the kit has long enough wires to move the battery by a few inches or by a few feet away from the controller?
2. Are you using any power extension chords for mounting the batteries side by side to fit?
3. If not, how much more room is left to move the batteries. I am trying to get a good handle of the tolerances I have to fit my design.
Also, I have read somewhere to keep the batteries as close to the controller as possible. Does this also hold for spacing between the controller and the motor if the correct wire gauge is used that avoid resistive losses. how much can I move the battery away from the motor specifically for the FX kit is my question. Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am a aerospace guy.
Also regarding using this for self launch gliders (not to take this thread away) as an aerospace engineer let me clarify a few things,
1. A modified Agni motor (from earlier year Zero) is available as a complete kit from electravia (http://www.electravia.fr/ (http://www.electravia.fr/)) for sometime now so this FX kit at a fraction can be directly plugged in at a max 3700rpm to a 50" prop.
2. The limitation is not the max power but "sustained" max powered for take off & climb(5 minute duration at 27HP/44HP for FX is required to reach altitude safely). I do not know if the motor can achieve enough air cooling
for 5 minutes. But if it can, this is indeed a plug and play aviation package and the "BEST" one out there too!
3. I do not want to get into the details of the flight but power relates to velocity^3. At 10HP you can still have fly at 70% of the top speed of the aircraft with a 28HP rated engine. Most gliders only need 3-10HP to sustain flight and that is the key that electric is so effectively used in self launch gliders now. You need full power for take off and climb and then reduce throttle to 15% and enjoy the scenery :).......BTW, an ICE is not even close to practical in doing so!
I hope it clarifies some facts and I hope to get back to this wonderful build thread.
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Directly relevant.
EarthStar eGull First Flight on 2013 Zero Motorcycles Electric Drivetrain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_8oQCjqPpo#ws)
I'm waiting to see the FX power system in an ultralight aircraft! If I was 40 years younger that could be me. I was flying hang gliders back then. :o
Trikester
Hmmm... You think it has enough power to do that?
now that certainly peaked my interest......
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I'm jealous! I never went from hang gliders to ultralights because I didn't want a screaming engine in my ears. I would love to fly electric launch glider (I fly the R/C ones now).
The wiring harness that comes with the kit is very restrictive. It is set up for the FX where the battery connectors are side by side. The negative high current cable is a "Y" that doesn't allow the batteries to move apart. I bought another negative cable and cut the "Y" section off of both of them. I will now run the two cables, one from each connector. There are also signal wires going between the battery connectors and I will splice longer wires into the center section of that bundle. There is a twisted pair in that signal cable so I sure hope I don't get electrical noise problems with it extended. Zero already warned me that I need to be careful routing the motor position sensor cable, especially if I extend it (I don't think I'll have to). They have had motor cut-out problems with noise pickup on that cable. I may have to shield it.
Basically, the factory harness has everything in close (like on the bike) so it is very difficult to work with on custom designs. I think I got everything except the battery connectors close enough that I won't have to modify any more of the harness than what I described. As for the motor, which is not very far from the Sevcon, I still needed to extend the three power cables (they are very short). I ordered three 19" (shortest I could find) automotive starter cables from Auto Zone (on the web). They are 4 gauge copper with lugs swagged on each end. I'll splice them onto the motor wires by bolting the lugs together. The motor cables are 2 gauge but I should still be OK using 4 ga extensions, since they will be in the moving air.
Since location of the battery connections seems to be the most difficult problem, because it involves large gauge high current cables, I would like to see Zero produce a plug-in extension (connectors on each end) for one battery. The stock cable could go directly to one battery and then the extension adapter from the other connector to the other battery.
I had assumed all along that the wiring would present more of a problem than the mechanical design. I'm beginning think that I was correct in that assumption.
Trikester
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I am following your progress with big respect, don't want to interfere always with commentary.
Talking of wiring, did you take in mind to make a revers "gear" to the trike?
I have rewired a lot of my 2012DS and did a revers switch as a gadget. But on your trike it could be a real advantage.
The Sevcon use an I/O Input as a Forward signal, Zero did all safety things (Side stand switch, main power, Throttle opened ...) inside their MBB. If all is OK the MBB switch the forward I/O Input active.
I have installed a second wire to a free I/O and use it as a revers input. A switch leads the MBB OK signal now to the forward or revers I/O Pin (It is a tactile always on(forward) and change to the second output as long as I hold it pressed (revers)). The nice thing it will always work with the original settings only the Revers is out of work when you get eq an update.
You need some one like Harlan to reprogram the Sevcon. BTW if you press it while running the bike it is the same as you do a regen brake. The forward to revers has a separate ramp setting and you can reduce revers speed separately . ;D but never slip off => you will accelerate again :o
Unfortunately I have no experience with the 2013 wiring!
If you need more details let me know.
BTW The 2012 has a "dead" line in the harness that "being brave" could be cut and used for that so you don't need to insert new contacts to the Secvon plug.
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Thanks for the detailed reply. I knew there was more going on the background than just your mechanical effort. Also this is the part about the design that makes me very nervous as I am not an electrical engineer. I am all ears and really appreciate you logging your progress here for people like me.
I also have another question about reverse. Your spyder RT has a reverse and I read on one of the forums that it is easy to incorporate reverse in a DC motor using the controller. You may not need it due to the low weight of your trike but is it something that can be incorporated in a strightforward way if needed?
Thanks again.
BTW, that gull is an excellent example of what can be done today with the Zero powertrain. Mark Beierle also posts every now and then on electric lazair 100%scale thread. The general aviation industry needs these desperately.
I'm jealous! I never went from hang gliders to ultralights because I didn't want a screaming engine in my ears. I would love to fly electric launch glider (I fly the R/C ones now).
The wiring harness that comes with the kit is very restrictive. It is set up for the FX where the battery connectors are side by side. The negative high current cable is a "Y" that doesn't allow the batteries to move apart. I bought another negative cable and cut the "Y" section off of both of them. I will now run the two cables, one from each connector. There are also signal wires going between the battery connectors and I will splice longer wires into the center section of that bundle. There is a twisted pair in that signal cable so I sure hope I don't get electrical noise problems with it extended. Zero already warned me that I need to be careful routing the motor position sensor cable, especially if I extend it (I don't think I'll have to). They have had motor cut-out problems with noise pickup on that cable. I may have to shield it.
Basically, the factory harness has everything in close (like on the bike) so it is very difficult to work with on custom designs. I think I got everything except the battery connectors close enough that I won't have to modify any more of the harness than what I described. As for the motor, which is not very far from the Sevcon, I still needed to extend the three power cables (they are very short). I ordered three 19" (shortest I could find) automotive starter cables from Auto Zone (on the web). They are 4 gauge copper with lugs swagged on each end. I'll splice them onto the motor wires by bolting the lugs together. The motor cables are 2 gauge but I should still be OK using 4 ga extensions, since they will be in the moving air.
Since location of the battery connections seems to be the most difficult problem, because it involves large gauge high current cables, I would like to see Zero produce a plug-in extension (connectors on each end) for one battery. The stock cable could go directly to one battery and then the extension adapter from the other connector to the other battery.
I had assumed all along that the wiring would present more of a problem than the mechanical design. I'm beginning think that I was correct in that assumption.
Trikester
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I didn't know I could do a revers command to the controller. That's something to consider, if I decide to do that I'll get Harlan's help as suggested.
I've gotten pretty used to riding the gas "Yamaha" trikes without a revers but it would be handy to have.
Trikester
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Here's a photo of the finished and painted tank "body" on the trike. I'll machine a fitting for the old filler hole that will mount the simple "dash board" that comes with the Zero powertrain. The black vinyl trim around the tank edge is car door trim from AutoZone.
Trikester
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Hi Trikester,
How is the FX power train; at your 2012 (DS) we had the BMS in the battery-box and the MBB on the top of the battery-box. Do you have also some separate MBB?
Is your system assembled with the bluetooth interface?
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How is the FX power train; at your 2012 (DS) we had the BMS in the battery-box and the MBB on the top of the battery-box. Do you have also some separate MBB?
Is your system assembled with the bluetooth interface?
The MBB is a separate module which I will be mounting soon. I understand that it does have the Bluetooth in it. The MBB will be the first item to be mounted on the actual trike frame. Up until now everything has gone onto the original TW200 motorcycle frame.
It doesn't use a heatsink but I'm going to make an aluminum mounting plate for it just to give it more support. It's a potted module with a plastic mounting flange (one hole) at each end.
Today I extended the signal wiring between the two battery connectors. Had to make a twisted quad cable as a part of that 11 wire bundle. Those wires are easy to work with because they are all 18 gauge stranded. I learned today that Zero has an extender cable for sale but it was too late, I had already cut the bundle of wires.
Attached is a photo of the twisted cable going in. No replies about my messy work area please ;)
I just realized that there are a couple of old Lucas magnetos showing in the background. The motorcycle world has changed a lot since those babies were built. If someone had suggested a practical electric motorcycle they would have been laughed at.
Trikester
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Great work !
No worrie I know messy tables take a look of my 3 different project going on in a part of my lab :)
So i guess that you also have on the 2013 these important connections like what is called the: Battery Throttle Enable, ON signal to BMS etc?
I have discovered that on the 2010 and 2011 battery we can use the zero battery alone with any device that can work at that voltage and have the battery fully protected. We just need to properly connect these signals and have the BMS to start and also the contactor inside... without the need of the MBB.
This is really usefull when come the time to make some battery capacity test and have it to cut at the right low voltage.
Doc
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I always liked the saying: "A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind". ;D
I have not made any attempt at this point to determine what signals the wires are for. I did get a schematic (protected under the NDA I signed). It is so physically big that I had to print it on a number of letter size pages and tape them together, so it is difficult to use. I was so anxious to get my project started that I put off understanding the connections until later, since I didn't have to make up the wiring harness myself.
Now, at this point in the project, I'm thinking that before I install the harness I should identify connections with those on the schematic so that I understand my system better. I also got help from Zero's engineering on how to hook up a reversing switch electrically, but I will have to have Harlan's help in the program changes to make it work. I don't have the knowledge or the tools to make software changes.
Trikester
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Here's photos of the extension of the battery signal wiring cable, before protective covering and completed task.
Trikester
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I've mounted the MBB and the three low current fuse holders. Also, not wanting to work with all of this wiring with the battery connectors actually plugged into the batteries, I held them in position using some scrap Plexiglas and "C" clamps'. The clear plastic lets me see the connectors as I'm routing the wiring.
I have been working without the high current cables in the connectors to make it easier. After these photos were taken I installed the high current (+) & (-) cables and contactors. The three high current motor drive connections have also been extended and hooked up. Now back to the low current signal wiring.
When I'm finally done with Zero's cabling then I have to deal with Yamaha's 12 V wiring which right now is just hanging loose. I'll be doing the 12 V cabling and lighting connections from the DC DC converter last.
Trikester
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Here is a lot of the wiring harness in place and hooked up. Can you say "rat's nest"?
I have not had to extend any more wires after the cable between battery connectors. All connectors have been able to reach their intended sockets. I found a convenient place to mount the charger input connector right where it ended up on the harness (see photo). I was glad that the motor sensor cable reached without having to extend it. Zero Eng said I could run into RFI pickup problems if it got too long.
I have to decide if I'm going to use Yamaha's wiring and hook into it with Zero's 12 V supply or purchase Zero's lighting harness and rewire the whole lighting system. Zero's harness is $99 but in the end it could be easier and less messy than combining two different manufacturer's harness' and different connectors. In writing this I have just about talked myself into Zero's harness. :)
BTW - In their catalog they call it a lightning harness. I prefer lighting to lightning :o
Trikester
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Trikester, I would love to spend some time in your shop. Those trike projects are awesome and I would love to check them out.
I was interested in building a leaning side car for my WR250X so my dog could come out with me. I already drag a pretty decent trailer with it.
If you lived closer I could be a pest.
Great work so far. I am looking forward to the rest of the story and the adventures that follow.
Thanks for sharing.
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I'll keep posting as I progress.
I did decide to order Zero's lighting harness. I think it will be better to take Yamaha's harness completely off the trike and start from scratch.
As far as adventures after completion - the first is probably going to be some magazine coverage. A person, who is affiliated with a number of international motorcycle magazines, was in my shop looking at the project. He said that as soon as it's done he wants me to take it to a dirt riding area for photos. That will be interesting but of courser some prior testing, out of sight of cameras, will take place first. ;)
Trikester
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A good use for the old gas filler hole - the dash.
Zero supplies the MX dash with the powertrain kit. I had to extend the 5 wire cable by 6" so that I can plug the connectors together before mounting the body (tank). With the batteries in place there would be no way to reach the connector with the tank already in place.
Trikester
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That looks pretty clean. Getting closer...
Can't wait for video of the initial run.
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Nice use of the little tiny TW gas tank!
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Nice use of the little tiny TW gas tank!
Yeah, every TW owner is peeved by that little tank. The consensus of opinion seems to be that you don't need much gas to get around the island of Japan. ;)
On the other TW trike I built I had my welder expand the tank. That's one reason that I didn't pick that one to "electrify".
Trikester
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As a former owner of a TW200 and an XT250 I would have to say that Yamaha did not consider fuel range to be big consideration.
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Since I no longer have a clutch lever assembly to also act as a left mirror mount, I had to machine a mount. In doing that, I also made it a very convenient place to mount the MODE sw where I can reach it with my thumb while still gripping the bar. See photo.
The craft paper that Zero uses to pack items they are shipping makes for a very happy cat named Peaches. In the photo you can see that there are older layers of Zero's packing paper under the brand new one from the box that came today with my 12 V lighting harness in it. Those older layers have become somewhat shredded from Peaches livelier moments.
Trikester
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Peaches requests that you order more Zero products. : )
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Peaches requests that you order more Zero products. : )
I may have to - considering that he (yes, Peaches is a neutered "he") is the boss around here.
As soon as I unpacked the latest box he spotted the new paper, which I had tossed on the couch, and jumped up there to get it. Of course, I stopped everything to lay it out on the floor for him. You see his next action (or inaction) in the photo. :)
Trikester
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I think the electric motorcycle forum has a new mascot!
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I think the electric motorcycle forum has a new mascot!
I agree and "he" tells us how we should spent our time!
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Oh, oh. Now he might get an agent and start making demands. However, he makes demands now, without an agent. ;D
Trikester
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Somebody is out having too much fun on their new electric trike or the cat has take over and won't release photos or video until Trikester orders a new controller and more batteries. Anything for more packing material for his den... ;D
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Somebody is out having too much fun on their new electric trike or the cat has take over and won't release photos or video until Trikester orders a new controller and more batteries. Anything for more packing material for his den... ;D
OK, I guess I've been silent too long. I also took a week away from the project to endure desert heat.
I'm still grinding my way through the 12 V bike wiring. Working out the connections to Yamaha's existing lights, switches, etc. Also changing connectors on Zero's harness since I don't have the mates to the connectors that were on the harness, as it came from the factory. I'm having to change them to Molex connector pairs (with crimp-able pins and sockets) which I can purchase in the local electronics store. Of course, I have suggested to Zero that they supply mating connectors with "pigtails" to buyers of their powertrain systems, but that won't help me now.
One thing I have worked out is using the now unneeded "neutral gear" dash indicator light as a right turn flasher indicator. The Yamaha only used a single light to show the turn flasher was on, so it didn't indicate direction. The three indicator lights on the Yamaha are: "Turn" on the left side of the dash, "high beam" in the center, and "neutral" is on the right. So I will connect Zero's left turn indicator wire to the one on the left and the right turn indicator wire to the former neutral indicator on the right side. Center indicator light stays as "high beam". I had been wondering what I was going do with that "neutral" indicator light. Pretty cool - huh? 8)
Trikester
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I like it, very creative... but we have come to expect that from you after getting to know your project ;D
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Since I no longer have a clutch lever assembly to also act as a left mirror mount, I had to machine a mount. In doing that, I also made it a very convenient place to mount the MODE sw where I can reach it with my thumb while still gripping the bar. See photo.
What if you incorporated the mode switch into the clutch lever… then it would be like a scooter brake!
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What if you incorporated the mode switch into the clutch lever… then it would be like a scooter brake!
I have removed the clutch lever, that's why I needed to machine a mirror mount. On the 2012 & 2013 I used a momentary lever switch instead of a clutch lever (see other posts under: "handlebar switch works great"). I haven't decided yet if I will do the same thing with the trike. I may just set up the front brake lever to put on the brake light before the brake starts to engage.
The reason for this change in my thinking is that with the ability to reprogram the ECO mode, with my iPod on the 2013 FX, I found that what I prefer is to set the regen in ECO mode to minimum (making it the same as SPORT) for the no brake light condition and set it to maximum for brake light condition. Torque is set at max and speed at max. Then I just ride in ECO most of the time and use the brake light on or off to determine my level of light or high regen deceleration. It becomes like SPORT mode with selectable high regen braking.
Using this method on my Klamath dirt rides I was able to descend thousands of feet each day, with tight 180* switchbacks, and never use my mechanical brakes. I just activated the brake light at the appropriate times.
Trikester
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The GREEN Light should, of course, indicate that Mr Fusion is active on the Trike.
:)
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I finished the trike e-conversion project today! :) Yahoooo! It's been a good fun project, but frustrating at times like all such projects are.
I used a power supply (one from my old company) to check all of the 12 V circuits (lights, horn, etc.) and it all worked. Now I just need some batteries from Zero and I can run the drive system. Last word from them is that they are supposed to ship Aug 12. Time will tell. ::)
I'll get some photos showing wiring and the switches I added for MODE and to kill the head light when in the low beam position on the headlight sw. The Yamaha uses a sealed beam headlamp so I'm stuck with it's wattage. Low beam is 50W @ 12V and high beam is 60W. So if I'm trail riding for four hours and I kill the low beam I've saved 0.2 kWh which is good for about two extra miles. The other lights, tail and running, draw a total of 20.4W and they will still be on, which costs me about another mile over four hours, depending on the ride of course. The Yamaha TW200 uses two running lights of low wattage, one in each front turn signal fixture.
Trikester
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Here's a couple of photos. I'll have to dribble them onto this thread a couple at a time because of the file size limitation. I have reduced them to under 300 kb.
I had the head tube badges made (my design) a number of years ago when i was building off road recumbent mopeds with very fat tires for desert sand. You can see the date that I finished building the original trike (the badge has gotten a little beat up over seven years). Other photo is instruments except the MX instrument panel which is on the "tank". I caught the right turn indicator flashing.
Trikester
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A couple more photos showing wiring harnesses. Orange is powertrain and black is 12 VDC lighting and accessory.
No way to make this look neat without making skins to cover everything. I don't plan to do that now, but may later.
Trikester
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Nice; sorry your batteries are not ready.
I really understand now your headache with wiring. It looks a bit like the inside of a particle accelerator ;D
You should definitely drive to a Motorcycle Garage and ask them to adjusted your idle mixture.
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I was recently one of a lucky few who got to tour the SpaceX factory in Hawthorne CA (an awesome place). As I looked at the electrical cabling on a space capsule under construction I was instantly reminded of my trike, which incidentally I had completed the day before.
Trikester
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Two more photos. This is the completed trike but still without batteries.
In the front view you can see my "ZERO" decal right above the "YAMAHA". The left side view shows the guard over the front sprocket which was the last piece I fabricated to complete the trike today. Yesterday I made the rear wheel sub-fender forward mud guard by cutting and heat forming a plastic clipboard from Staples Office Store (partially shows in the photo).
The battery connectors are still clamped in place because without batteries they are free-floating and would be hanging down.
Hopefully, the next photos I post will be the trike on street or dirt, under power.
Trikester
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Great project Trikester! :) I have had a couple of trikes over the years, it would be awesome to have an EV :)
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Seeing your Trike without batteries is like itching and you can't scratch.
Ned: I really like your "Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul! 8)
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Amazing project Trikester. Zero needs to get you some batteries!! We need to see this thing come to life.
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For a while I have had instructions from Zero engineering on how to wire the controller to have a reverse function available. I had decided to not do that because I wanted to get the system running without modifications possibly causing problems. However, since I now have time to kill waiting for batteries, I will go ahead and make the wiring mod. It will also require some reprogramming by Harlan to get the revers option working, so for my first tests of the running system I will leave the F / R switch in the forward position which will make it the same wiring as before modification.
As of now I'm planning to locate the F / R switch on the "tank", on the right side of the dash board (see photo), so that I won't accidentally switch with my hand still on the throttle. Not sure what would happen if I did that, but I don't wish to find out the hard way. :o
During the years that the trike was gas powered I got along without revers because the trike was easy to push backwards when in neutral. Now, with the electric motor always being connected to the wheel, it will be more difficult to push back with the added friction of spinning the motor (just like the Zero motorcycles are more resistant to pushing than a gas bike in neutral.).
Trikester
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When the bike is "off" then it should be no more resistant to pushing than a gas bike in neutral.
Edit: perhaps the better phrase is "little mroe resistant" .. see below : )
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When the bike is "off" then it should be no more resistant to pushing than a gas bike in neutral.
It is definitely more resistant to pushing than an ICE bike in neutral. The magnetic drag on the rotor (and some general friction) does not disappear when power is off. Remember, you are geared up from wheel to motor when driven from the wheel so torque at the motor shaft is reduced and RPM increased. It takes more effort to overcome that magnetic drag and friction than a gear box in neutral.
I carry pliers to remove the quick link in the chain on my Zero bikes in case I ever have to push one any significant distance. Also, without the motor physically connected, the bikes will coast freely down even very shallow slopes.
Trikester
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Two more photos: A close up of the forward / reverse switch installed and a rider's eye view of all of the instruments and switches.
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I have this revers push button at my zero it will not do bad things when switching during you drive.
Actually it will depend how you do set up the Sevcon, you actually could use it like a Regn Brake but I will not advice to do because if you switch accidentally back your breaking will and in accelerating :o
(you can setup it that your throttle give the acceleration/breaking torque like the throttle at a Vectrix but you distinguish the direction with the switch and the torque is always with opening the throttle (dangerous)!
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I just gotta say, that trike looks sweet.
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Amazing project Trikester. Zero needs to get you some batteries!! We need to see this thing come to life.
I want my batteries first... sure his project is cool, but I need to get to work!
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Have you guys sent in the sizes for your free riding jacket and gloves? I did that yesterday.
Trikester
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Have you guys sent in the sizes for your free riding jacket and gloves? I did that yesterday.
Trikester
errr.... what??
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A letter went out from Richard Walker, Zero's CEO, offering the warm weather riding jacket and gloves free to those of us who are waiting for our batteries to be replaced. It requires going to a web page and giving your sizes.
I won't show the web address because everyone qualified should have their letter from Richard first. If you fall into this group and haven't received the letter, then inquire of Zero.
I didn't know about the letter until I was communicating with Zero engineering and was told about the letter and that I should have received it already, which I hadn't. There was some kind of problem with my snail mailing address according to them.
Trikester
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I live in the virgin islands, there's problems with everything comming from out side to here... haha
I'll shoot an email their way, I'd love a jacket/gloves (hopefully its SUPER warm weather jacket.. it doesn't really get lower than 75* here)
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Oops! I realized a couple of days ago that I need to add another switch to my "dash". This required making a new mounting plate for the low beam kill sw and the new sw to sit in.
When I was installing Zero's cable harness I checked to see that they had already put a shorting jumper on the kick stand sensor connector so that the motor would run without a kick stand sensor switch (I don't need no stinkin' kick stand!). However, I realized that I would need to have a "kick stand down" indication if I was going to program the ECO mode with my iPod, since it requires that (plus having the key on and the kill sw off).
I added a weather proof rocker sw (similar to what Zero uses for their ECO switch) to my "dash". But, since the kick stand sensor uses three wires I needed a SPDT switch. They use 5v, com (gnd), and signal connections. I didn't need a very noticeable switch since it would be in the "kick stand up" position most of the time. It also could be used as another theft deterrent.
I've attached the photo showing the current locations of all the switches now. The new sw is close to the center of the photo.
Wish i had a better way to label these switches :-[
Trikester
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Wish i had a better way to label these switches :-[
"Program"
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You can get tapes for the dymo label printers that are black text on metallic silver. looks pretty good and a coat of laquer would protect it.
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You can get tapes for the dymo label printers that are black text on metallic silver. looks pretty good and a coat of laquer would protect it.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have considered buying a Dymo label maker for a long time but never did. Maybe this is my "excuse" to get one. I'll look for the black on metallic lettering tape at the same time. I always coat my hand lettering with a clear coat but I didn't know if I could do that with Dymo labels. Glad to read that I can do that.
BTW - I was puzzled by Hein's reply until I figured out that he thought I was trying to think of a better word to use for the "stand" switch. I should have been more clear, but you got my meaning NoiseBoy, thanks. 8)
Trikester
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Hein has a point though. 'Program' would be better!
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Cancel everything about the kick stand switch!
Zero eng said I can program the ECO in the MBB with the kick stand up. As I had recalled the app instructions said; "Kick Stand down, key on, kill switch off". Maybe they were just cautioning against the bike falling over while the owner is messing with the app. Apparently, the kick stand sensor isn't actually a controlling factor.
I have removed the switch, and cut the panel down narrower to just mounting the "Low Beam Enable" switch.
I now have a Dymo Label maker and will re-label this switch and the ECO switch. I will go with black on clear because Staples was out of black on silver. Since my mounting panels are unpainted metal the clear tape should work well. Silver would probably not have matched enough to disappear.
Trikester
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Here's a photo of the Dymo labels for the switches. I used black on clear and then a clear coat on top. I also used the Dymo for some of the fuses (not shown).
Thanks NoiseBoy for the good tip! 8) It looks a lot better than my hand squiggles.
Trikester
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Hi Trikester,
I hope you get your battery pack so we can get a good read on your test drive. I am also working on designing my reversetrike and have tried to do the best to get all the weight and balance in place. As I am not an electrical engineer, I have tried my best to stick with the known Zero configuration for FX ::) I do not want to hijack your thread but would appreciate it if you can comment on my basic powertrain location and if extending the controls/display on the handle bar to the rear mounted powertrain will work by just adding an extension(74" as shown in the drawing) to the existing harness. The thought process is to keep all the HV stuff as is and also use the FX frame where I can to minimize machining. If you want me to take this offline and PM you please let me know.
(http://)
Thanks.
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I don't think there is a problem with extending the controls and display wires. You seem to have the high current wiring, batteries, and motor controller (Sevcon) clustered together which it should be. If you can maintain the stock length on the encoder cable from the motor to the controller, that is recommended. Zero engineering said they had noise pickup (causing motor dropouts) when they extended that particular wiring in one of their projects. They mentioned that they were able to solve the problem with reprogramming, however (I wouldn't know how to do that).
I'm hoping that I don't have wiring sensitivity problems when I finally get to run mine. I'm going to Utah for two weeks in Sept and with the new battery shipping date now in early September, I probably won't have time to test my trike before I go and have to wait until I get back to run it. :(
Trikester
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Thanks Trikester for the reply but I am confused regarding your comment about the encoder cable from motor to the controller. In the setup I have suggested that cable should be exactly where it is by default in the FX or not? :-\
Is there anything else that I should be concerned about in my setup? I am sorry but I am not an electrical engineer and do not understand the complications involved so I am trying to do the minimal amount of changes I can to the FX powertrain. Also, I cant get the powertrain kit from Zero because I am an individual and not a company so I will have to get a FX and then use as much of the standard bike I can to get to where I want.
I do appreciate all your help and comments.
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I didn't realize you were starting with an FX, I thought you had managed to get a Powertrain kit (somehow) and were building from scratch. Then I assume everything is stock except for the two cables you asked about (refer to my previous answer about those). So you should be OK in all areas then.
A big advantage to the way you are going is that you will have the full dash display. The Powertrain kit only comes with the MX dash which is very minimal (see my photos showing that). I don't know Zero's reason for that. You will also have the built-in charger. In my case I wouldn't have room for the built-in charger even if I wanted it.
Trikester
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Thanks for the clarification. The reason for going with the FX Vs the MX was,
1. Comes with the DOT tires
2. Turn signal lights and switches in place because the less I need to do any electrical the better it is for me :D
3. High torque
4. Full Dash
The biggest advantage that I see for the MX is the horsepower. My trike will be about 600 lbs when all done but I am also considering a genset at the front in the nose which will make this weight go up 100+ lbs so I am torn between the added 10 hp of the MX. Being an aero engineer, I have a good hold on the aerodynamics and the trike will have at most 1/2 the drag of the current FX.
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The trike was powered on for the first time with the new batteries and worked flawlessly, after an initial re-boot with the key switch. I was amazed with the power and acceleration and then I discovered that I had forgotten to plug in one of the batteries, so it was only running on half power! After connecting the other battery I felt like it could lift the front end if I gave it enough throttle. :o
So far no more re-boots have been necessary. Bluetooth is working also. :)
1st ride was 14.4 miles total pavement to the monthly VintageBikeOC meet and back (even though it wasn't vintage it got a lot of attention). Back in April I rode the trike there with it's ICE still powering it so people were surprised. It was a blast to ride compared to it's original gas powered state! 8) There are other electric trikes but I wonder if this is the first dual-sport and aimed principally toward dirt riding?
It is now going to Utah with the FX and will see some dirt there for the first time as an electric. After the Utah rides I'll be posting ride data and ride photos of the FX and E-trike under a new thread.
See photo of its first roll-out from my shop and ready for the first ride.
Trikester
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Love it!
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Compliments for the go(o)d development,
It's good to know you got the batteries on time. Have a lot of fun riding at Utah!
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Great job Trikester. Can't wait to see the ride report.
Just one thing, do your knees not foul the battery boxes when you sit forward on the bike?
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I thought the width with the batteries might be a problem. However, I found that I like the extra width for the following reason. When riding anything that has more than two wheels the rider gets tossed from side to side on rough roads or dirt terrain. I found that I can "lock" myself in better with the wide area for my knees to grip. That, combined with the big ATV foot pegs I had mounted on the original trike, makes me more secure when the trike is being pitched from side to side.
I might eventually mount some kind of cushion (like the old Brit bikes had on their tanks) on the batteries for my knees to press against.
Thanks for the nice comments, everyone.
Trikester
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If you ever get a chance, get someone to film you riding on it!
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By pure luck, a guy who works for Zero, but lives near my SoCal shop, dropped by just as I was ready to turn on the switch for the first time. He took video with his smart phone, but I haven't seen it yet.
I'm sure there will be other chances to get video as well.
Frank
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Trikester, where and when do you plan to go riding in Utah? I would like to meet up with and ride with fellow dual sport EV riders and could possibly rendezvous if the timing was right.
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I happened to be staying in Bluff Utah while the annual Navajo Fair is going. This morning I entered the parade with my e-Trike. The speed of the parade was slower than most people would want to walk. It was great with electric drive not having to mess with gears and slipping a clutch to go that slow. And since a trike doesn't have to balance, the slow pace wasn't a problem with that. People were lined up solid along both sides of the road and many got a kick out of seeing my trike, especially after they realized it was electric.
Every so often someone would think that Yamaha was making these now and I would have to set them straight about that.
I jumped off, when the parade briefly stopped, to snap a photo of the trike in the parade. I was following a couple of small front loaders that are gaining popularity among the Navajo on the reservation.
JefRo, I haven't planned any of my rides yet.
Trikester
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I will going thru Bluff on the way to Mexican Hat later this week with motorcycle, not electric. Bluff is a great little town and the Comb Ridge area is full of obscure ruins and pictographs, most within EV range from your location, if you are so inclined.
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Thanks JefRo. Yes there is a lot of very nice hiking to ruins and rock art panels, mountain biking, and dirt bike riding. This my 33rd year of coming to Bluff at least once per year, boating the river and doing all of those other activities, and I always stay at the Recapture Lodge. Today I put on the San Juan River for a three day solo trip to Mexican Hat. I come off the river on Wednesday afternoon. I won't have computer contact between now and then.
If you come through Bluff, after I'm back from the river, stop in at the Recapture and ask for the guy with the electric bikes.
Trikester
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I have stayed at the Recapture, a great place to stay. Will be coming through Bluff Thursday afternoon and will look for you if you are around. Expecting nice weather for the rest of the week.
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It's Thursday morning now. I'll be around all day because it's my cleaning river gear and physical recovery day.
Trikester
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Today I'm going to repeat, with the trike, a dirt ride I did on the FX Saturday to see how much less mileage I get on the trike. I lost a day of activity yesterday due to frequent lightning, and occasional brief downpours, during most of the day starting at sunup. :(
I'll be reporting all Utah ride results after I get home from the trip. The trike results will be posted here and the FX will be in this 2013 forum. Spoiler alert: the FX seems to be getting better mileage than the 2012 DS (I also saw this when I was riding in the Klamath Forest last June).
Going to be a beautiful sunny day today, light wind, with the high in the upper seventies. 8)
Trikester
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See the other posting "2013 FX & e-Trike dirt ride data - Utah USA" for my trike ride data.
The trike appears to be have a slightly better mileage than my 2012 DS on this same ride in 2012, and uses about 13 1/2% more energy than my 2013 FX on a similar ride (maybe less because conditions were worse for the trike ride). This is better than my expectations.
Trikester
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Nice Photo greet view.
Seeing your bike there standing a question crossed my mind - Do you have something like a parking break?
Certainly a small rock will always work!
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Seeing your bike there standing a question crossed my mind - Do you have something like a parking break?
I used an ATV front brake master cylinder that has a little spring loaded device that can be pushed into a slot when the lever is pulled back. When the lever is released the device holds it from retracting. As soon as the lever is pulled back again the device springs out of the way. As long as there are no fluid leaks in the system it works well.
I needed that larger ATV master cylinder anyway, to drive two wheel cylinders, so I made sure I got one that had the holding device. A lot of ATV's use a separate parking disk brake on the rear axle so I had to do some product searching to find this brake master cylinder with the device.
Trikester
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Awesome didn't know something like this is on the market.
I would really like to see your trike in real!
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I would really like to see your trike in real!
I wish everyone on this forum could ride it. JefRo got to, when he stopped by the motel I was staying at in Bluff Utah.
It is definitely a different experience than two wheels, and some motorcycle riders feel uncomfortable when they first ride something so different. One thing I like (I suppose ATV riders feel the same) is more confidence in really nasty spots of dirt riding because there is no minimum speed to maintain control, so I can go as slow as I want. This is especially true with electric drive since the torque is always available no matter how slow I take it, like climbing over rocks, etc. It would be fun to build one with Xero's motors on each wheel for three wheel drive and have a real "rock crawler". The controller would have to sense individual wheel slip and assign a percentage of power to wheels accordingly. I'll bet the military would be interested in something like that! ;) Zero what about it?
On my John's Canyon FX ride I walked the bike (using power assist) up a short but very intimidating steep climb that was heavily eroded, narrow, and had a 150 foot cliff drop-off on the left. However, walking the bike was almost a disaster and a poor choice as it turned out. Next time I will just hit it with some speed and power and ride it, but had I been on the trike I would not have hesitated in riding up it when I came to it. I did ride down it with some speed coming back and was happy to finally be at the bottom (I'd been thinking about it all the way back since it was early in the ride out). I did manage to ride all of the other places of heavy erosion and was glad I was riding an electric (no stalling out in the middle).
When you young, aggressive, dirt riders look at the photo remember I'm 78 and don't heal fast. Just out of view on the left is the 150 foot vertical. Any of those rocks on the far left slope, if pushed, would roll over the edge and not strike anything until the bottom. The far right route looks good in the photo but there is a bedrock edge sticking up in front of it that is out of view. One would bounce up over that rock just before hitting the slope. Of course Jeeps have no problem here, just as I wouldn't have on the trike.
Trikester
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Awesome to see you using the trike.
I hope we get some video.... Thanks for sharing.
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I hope we get some video.... Thanks for sharing.
I need to get a GoPro one of these days. However, I'm usually riding by myself so I still wouldn't have any video of me riding, just the scenery going by.
Trikester
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I've copied and pasted the e-trike ride data here, from my other posting of data from the Utah rides. I should have done that at the time I posted it on the other page.
Trikester
e-Trike, Valley of the Gods to Muley Point and back
Total miles: 52.3
Elev. gain / loss: 2,000 ft (all in 3 miles), 4% recovered charge on descent.
Terrain: rough, newly eroded, dirt road, frequent up & down, strong headwind going out, temp: upper 60's
Trip moving average speed: 15.6 mph
Batt. remaining: 26% = max miles: 70.7
Bars showing: 1 red on MX dashboard
Wh/Mi (using recharge):79.541 (this is 13.4% more Wh/Mi than FX & a little better than my 2012 DS in 2012) this exceeds my expectations for the trike.
Recharge: 4.16 kWh
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I finally got around to trucking the trike to Harlan (Hollywood Electrics) and got the re-programing done for the reverse switch. Man it is easy to burn rubber in reverse! It sure is nice backing out of parking spaces.
He also worked with Zero engineering to install a firmware change to both the MBB and Sevcon. I was having a trouble light start blinking and shut down the charger when the batteries were only about 1/2 charged. Unplugging the charger from the trike and re-plugging would start the charge again and then it would go to completion. Zero eng explained to me that sometimes, due to a software problem, the system would interpret a bike charging (technically the bike is on and running) and not moving for a while as a failure of the motor sensors and shut everything down. The firmware update eliminates this situation. This is the same drive system as my 2013 FX but I have not seen that problem on the FX.
I also had Harlan do some other programming changes for me. One was to set the SPORT regen to 0% for no brake light and 15% for lighted. Up until 2013 this change to 0% would go back to the 7% default setting the next time the bike was powered up but according to Harlan that isn't the case with the 2013's. We checked it out and the 0% setting held through power cycling.
Another change created a funny situation for us. I asked him to reduce the dead zone before the throttle starts activating. In doing so he made an error that caused the controller to greatly reduce the torque. Harlan test rode the trike, after the changes, but before I did and he came back all smiles. Then I rode it and came back scared. Pulling out in traffic I had very slow acceleration - ouch! I brought it back and told him that it was gutless for some reason. He had never ridden it before the changes so he didn't know it was not always that way. :-) So he backed out the changes and then added them back one at a time until he found it was the throttle programming where he had made the operator error. Once fixed he was then able to ride with the normal "blazing" acceleration and realized the difference.
Advice to snow country Zero riders: If you want anything done to your Zero, by this very knowledgeable guy (I can't imagine some of those other dealers, I've read about, figuring out what to do, or what went wrong after doing it) plan a winter vacation to SoCal and Hollywood Electrics.
Trikester
BTW - I have the e-trike at my desert cabin for the first time and will do some of my local desert riding this week. The daytime temps are running in the eighties, so it's going to be very nice riding weather.
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Have fun doing your desert riding,
Did Harlan set the speed limit to a low value in revers?
I did, but I still have a lot of torque for the first some seconds in reverse.
Would be nice to see some Photos of your desert rides specially if it will start to snow over here :'(
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Did Harlan set the speed limit to a low value in revers?
I did, but I still have a lot of torque for the first some seconds in reverse.
Harlan was told by Ryan @ Zero that the speed is already factory limited to 5 mph in reverse. However, I've experienced what you mention - it doesn't seem to kick in right away. You can start back in a blaze of glory before a limit kicks in. :o
Today I did a short ride where the summer thunderstorms had left the double-track roads in deep soft sand. Something you wouldn't want to have to walk on. Twice my rear wheel spun and dug a hole for itself. I lifted the wheel out of its hole and got back on and just slowly eased the throttle on. The trike started moving without spinning the wheel and as speed picked up I would give it a little more throttle. That kind of precision control of torque to the driving wheel is almost impossible with ICE power. An automatic transmission comes the closest to that. I was able to creep forward and slowly build up some speed.
Trikester
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An update to the e-trike project. I added a built in charger so I would now have an on-board charger.
I used two Mean Well 320W, 57.5V supplies in series (115VDC total) just like the built in charger on my 2013FX and mounted them on the front frame of the trike. The tricky part was figuring out how to get the MBB to connect the charging circuit just as it does with the DeltaQ external charger. The key to this is the wht/blk wire that goes to the external charge connector (a small pin). It has to have a small current flowing in (+) (1ma or less) to enable the contactors to pull in and connect the batteries to the charge connector.
Got it worked out! If the wht/blk wire is connected to B(+), through a 100K resistor, it closes the contactor when some voltage is present (wide margin here). If there isn’t enough residual voltage present then momentarily turning on the key will provide the voltage to turn the contactors on.
Here’s what I have done: I have a separate three pin charge connector for the output of the Mean Wells. The bike side is wired to the B(+) & B(-) going to the external charge connector. The third pin is connected to the wht/blk wire also going to that connector. In the mating plug (the Mean Well side) the B(+) & B(-) connect to the series wired Mean Well supplies (+) & (-). The third wire has a 100K resistor in series and then connects to the B(+) connection at the Mean Well. When the connector is plugged together, with the AC off, cycling the key switch will pull in the contactors. Then the AC is applied to the Mean Wells and they begin charging. The voltage out of the Mean Well supplies must follow the closing of the contactors. If it is present before the contactors close then they won't close. With the key turned off the charging will continue until the batteries are charged. When that level is reached the bike disables further charging and the current from the Mean Wells goes to zero.
See photo, note the new charge connector (white blocks, unplugged) down by the steering damper below the supplies.
Trikester
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Cool Stuff,
why didn't you ask Harlan if he has a CCU left,I have a second at home, because my friends using the FX as a racebike cleand out all chargers and 12V stuff. The adventure the CCU will do a perfect current limitation so the charging is adapted to your battery need. The CCU is not big I assume your cable harness has the CCU connector!
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I appreciate your suggestion but Harlan and I talked about going the CCU route when we were at Pikes Peak. I decided not to use it. I didn't want to have to try to mount it someplace in addition to the Mean Well supplies (at the time I didn't even know where I would mount those). Brandon (Electric Cowboy) agreed with my decision to not add more circuitry when it was not necessary.
I set the constant current on the Mean Wells to 5.6A and the output voltage to 57.8V ea for a total of 115.6VDC so the CCU would just be redundant. It isn't needed when charging with the DeltaQ externally, so why mess with having another piece of electronic gear mounted somewhere (especially now that I know how to activate the external charge circuit).
My charging is similar to the external DeltaQ except for the lower power. The DeltaQ is 1100W input. If the AC outlet supports 1800W or more I can use both charging systems (on-board & outboard) for a faster charge.
Trikester
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An update to the e-trike project that has many postings in its history. Harlan came through with a 2013 FX dash, so now I have replaced the MX "bare bones" dash that came with the original Zero powertrain. The FX dash wouldn't fit in the former gas tank filler hole like the MX dash did so I mounted it where I took off the Vapor dirt bike speedometer. The powertrain cabling had connections for either dash so I didn't have to do any wiring changes to connect the FX dash. It's nice to have the smaller increments of the FX "fuel" gauge as compared to the MX.
Trikester
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And you have a new bike with 0 miles in the odometer 😉
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,,,
I was interested in building a leaning side car for my WR250X so my dog could come out with me. I already drag a pretty decent trailer with it.
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Hey, Mr. Fisherman, what trailer do you use and how do you like it? What's the attachment point? Can you give us a photo?