ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: dhzehrbach on November 01, 2015, 05:36:14 AM
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The details of the new ZEV Electric motorcycle just launched this week are now up on the company web site at http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/30.html (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/30.html)
The goal was to drive down the price of a long range electric motorcycle and build in the on bike, in the body storage for commuters. The bike, despite the cost of a full fairing and a line of windshields from those shown to touring is offered at $12,490.
Range at 55 mph 129 km / 80 miles
Range at 70 mph 113 km / 70 miles
Max continuous speed 80 mph / 127 kmh
Continuous power output 13 kw
Peak power motor rating 45 kw
The bike has all of its battery low in the chassis--between 6 and 12 inches lower than other competitors and does not need to sacrifice the space of its "tank" storage for battery space. It has much larger brakes than all competitors, and with the range and body, offers more at a lower price. This bike is to be the low end anchor for this faired bike model with another expected about every 6 months during 2016.
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I definitely like the storage tank!
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/tank+storage+nobk2+wb.jpg)
And the blue glow lighting! Would like to see how it looks at night.
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M13+blueglo.jpg)
And the lights look pretty cool too!
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M-13+lftqtr+wb.jpg)
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/front+led+wb.jpg)
Having the motor controller hanging from the side of the bike like a muffler on an ICE bike is interesting. I imagine it's not any more susceptible to water than the motor controller on a Zero which is right above the wheel....although it seems like that would be a lot of weight to have on just one side of the bike. I wonder if they have done anything to balance the weight on the other side?
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M-13+right+side+wb.jpg)
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According to the site the charger isn't on the bike....really?!?! I would never buy an electric bike that I couldn't charge away from home without carrying a charger in a back pack....or using up all the space in that awesome storage tank.
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Glad to read that you like the storage tank.
The controller on the side is how we have made all of the ZEV except the smallest. It frees up space in the bike for battery and puts the controller in the best position for cooling. Its not that heavy and you cannot feel its weight.
The charger is radically larger in power output than a Zeros charger. 2100 watts draw. So this is under 4 hour charge. The issue with built in chargers revolves around the fact that they 1) must be smaller than non built in for getting it in the bike 2) chargers are the number one failure point in a well made electric bike 3) Not building them in lets customers swap out instead of taking a bike to a dealer.
As the designer, I prefer to have more battery space and nuts to charging. The goal is to stuff every ounce of battery in the bike and have it run so long you do not need to charge. I can put another battery pack in a bike for the cost of an onboard charger, and then the customer wants a faster off board unit for home anyhow. With the big tank storage, the bike will swallow the charger and leave room to spare.
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The charger is radically larger in power output than a Zeros charger. 2100 watts draw. So this is under 4 hour charge.
The stock charger for a Zero is 1.3kW. The new charge tank option adds another 2.5kW for a total of 3.8kW of onboard charging. That gets charge time on a 13kWh pack down to less than 3 hours. The M-13 S is only 8.4kWh (not sure if that's nominal or max) so you would be able to recharge in less than 3 hours...maybe like 2.5 hours in real world use.
The DigiNow Super Charger brings 7.5kW from a J1772 in addition to the 1.3kW from the stock charger for 8.8kW. Plug into a NEMA 14-50 and that bumps up to 10kW. This makes charge times of less than 1 hour possible.
It's infinitely more useful to be able to go 70 miles at 70mph and recharge in 1 hour than to be able to go 85 miles at 70mph and then have to wait 4-5 hours or more to recharge.
Can a top box and side cases be put on the M-13 S? It seems like the motor controller on the side would interfere with a side case. What is the pack voltage? Maybe the DigiNow charger will work with the M-13 S.
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With the big tank storage, the bike will swallow the charger and leave room to spare.
The storage tank doesn't look big enough for a helmet...which would be awesome....or a messenger bag with a laptop inside....which would also be awesome....but exactly how many liters of storage does it have and what are the internal dimensions?
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Look like it is using hub motor type. Interesting to see it can sustain 13kW and peak to 45kW.
Doc
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This is good , more competition and fairings as standard. Not bad for first motorcycle, hopefully they keep improving like zero does.
will be good to see comparison with similar speced Zero / Victory Empulse.
Hopefully Victory will release new models too.
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Glad to read that you like the storage tank.
The controller on the side is how we have made all of the ZEV except the smallest. It frees up space in the bike for battery and puts the controller in the best position for cooling. Its not that heavy and you cannot feel its weight.
The charger is radically larger in power output than a Zeros charger. 2100 watts draw. So this is under 4 hour charge. The issue with built in chargers revolves around the fact that they 1) must be smaller than non built in for getting it in the bike 2) chargers are the number one failure point in a well made electric bike 3) Not building them in lets customers swap out instead of taking a bike to a dealer.
As the designer, I prefer to have more battery space and nuts to charging. The goal is to stuff every ounce of battery in the bike and have it run so long you do not need to charge. I can put another battery pack in a bike for the cost of an onboard charger, and then the customer wants a faster off board unit for home anyhow. With the big tank storage, the bike will swallow the charger and leave room to spare.
Congratulations on the bike, it must be quite a step for a company that until now has focused primarily on scooter-esque motor.
Perhaps you can lift the curtain a little bit about the next bike in the pipeline?
Also, purely for clarity you might want to add to your signature that you work for ZEV and include a link to the site.
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Well this bike pretty much has all the things we talked about for the 2016 Zeros. Fairings lockable lid storage and an approach of easy fixing for me is great. That controller on the side makes for easy replacement if damaged or to upgrade or put one on the other side umm just to balance the weight not to make it faster or anything. Love the center stand for spring adjusting and tire removal and parking. Off board charger again for easy replacing if broken or upgrades are made for new charging types. If it can fit in the storage tank no net loss either way, also could take Cowboy's fast charger and fill up quick. It's a shame all these companies can't work together but money makes the world go round. ZEVROEGOLIGHTNINGBRO anyone? Nice bike needs more Kwhs and maybe faster but very good entry. Keep it up.
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Impressive range from the battery - aerodynamics adding a fair(ing) share of that.
I'm not hub motor phobic, so to my eye the bike legitimatizes the wheel bulk. Nice commitment to the front brakes.
Such specificity in the torque measurement "Motor Torque - 280 Nm (206 lb ft) at 170 rpm measured at the air gap OD at 180 amps" is this real world comparable is it still linear delivery ?
Such talk about the acceleration - and the braking... good logic in the narrative but does not really present a comparable.
0-60?
60-0? (in feet)
Being an early adopter might have its own benefits:
http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/14.html (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/14.html)
If this meets the hype, I'll be checking airfare (if you know what I mean).
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Is this a faired version of the Evoke?
www.evokemotorcycles.com/
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"Impressive"? What am I missing? Is this 2012? ::)
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-spec-battle/
(don't neglect the price there, too... and the NCM chemistry, even then.)
...and you don't need to be "phobic" to have an idea of what the physics of 60 or 80lbs of motor does to the handling of a bike in the bumpy-twisties. Not a fan.
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"Impressive" as I expected ZEV to use a larger than Zero battery to deliver Zero level ranges.
The physics and gyroscopic magnitude aside, I'll rephrase and say "My riding style and preferences doesn't automatically trigger hub motor phobia". I'd rather ride and decide.
I do have a challenge in the bumpy twisties of getting the front end to stay heavy (maybe a hub motor up there would help) through the apex short of climbing onto the handlebars.
Bulk too would help feel less twitchy at higher speeds. Realizing my non-Zero cycle weighs over 500 pounds. More weight in the rims would go a long way for adding a comparable feeling of substance. At interstate speeds my Zero feels little difference from a high speed bicycle by comparison.
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More weight in the rims would go a long way for adding a comparable feeling of substance. At interstate speeds my Zero feels little difference from a high speed bicycle by comparison.
But... but... that's what I bought my Zero FOR! Because it feels like a 250cc dirtbike with a Hayabusa engine stuffed in it that magically didn't get heavier.
Manhandling my FJR is a chore now. It's like flying a B-52 compared to an F-16. It gets ridden once or maybe twice a month now.
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"Impressive" as I expected ZEV to use a larger than Zero battery to deliver Zero level ranges. ...
If they're using LiFePO4, then they would be using a larger battery, not to pick nits. NCM is both more power- and energy-dense.
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Lots of questions. In turn
ERASMO -as you suggested- I note, I am the designer of the bike, the head engineer and the President of ZEV.
You asked --The next model will be a 10 kwh battery pack like the ZEV LRC scooter that now runs 140 miles at 55 mph. 84 volt nominal, 15 kw continuous. We will see if there is any request for an in the tank storage space range extender, ala ZERO power tank. Easily done.
There is a motor laying in the shop for 20 kw higher rpm running. We know from testing in coast down and in towed drag measurements, that the bike can run 100 mph on 20 kw or 118 on 24 kw. Maybe in 2017 and then make the parts available as retrofit for anyone. I just cannot get to this for awhile. This whole motorcycle project has taken several years. Just not enough hours in the day.
Beyond the 20 kw, there is a large faired cruiser type bike carrying 25 kwh of battery that runs over 300 miles on a charge. About $20,000-$22. Before committing on that bike we will see where this current model design leads us.
Mr. Wilson ---as you say, the ZERO charger is 1.3 kw, the standard ZEV is over 2. We could use the larger chargers, but the feedback from customers is they hate the price of the large chargers. Its cheaper to put extra battery in the bike. $3,000 of charger buys double the battery pack.
If I made the 15 kw, 84 volt nominal bike with the extra in tank battery for range, then added the fast charger, it would be cheaper to build the 300 mile range 25 kwh bike.
Survey of car owner show that over 90% never buy the extra charger. They just use the small one in the car and let it set 8-9 hrs. Bike use seems to follow this pattern. Its rare that anyone asks me for a bigger charger. They do ask for a bike design with more total range. But we are already seeing at the 140 miles of the LRC motor scooter that there is a new trend. Not charging. We are seeing that people buy bikes with the intent that they can drive 30 miles a day commute, and only charge every 4th or 5th day. Not good for the battery, and not what I intended, but it’s what they do.
We do have adapters available to go to 220 plugs and the charger has a 110/220 toggle switch on it standard for a faster charge than what we list.
The controller is inboard from where a pannier would hang on the rear. No interference.
Pack voltage on this first model bike is only 72 volts nominal.
CNTRBURN---Hub motors need not turn rpm, as even on the 84 mph LRC scooter with a 13 inch wheel, its never over 1400 rpm. On the taller 18 inch wheel, its really loafing. So the span of rpm between 0 and max is so little the torque is very linear.
We are a bit odd in that we heat the motors in a hot box to 300 degrees F, and then put them on the dyno. They run there at max power as we watch the temperatures come down while running full power. When the temps stabilize, we hold another 3 minutes of full power. Then we check the torque and rpm, etc. So the torque is sustainable.
The hub motor has some advantage in that it is not buried in the chassis like the ZERO motor so it gets good cooling air. Since it is turning, it is its own cooling fan. The entire wheel becomes heat sink/cooling fin.
TEDDILLARD – You are not even remotely in the realm of weight or logic. No hub motor on any of the bikes we make weigh remotely what you guessed. You must be thinking about big truck motors. To compare you would have to put a chain or belt type drive wheel on the scale, toss on the chain or belt, add the chain or belt sprocket. The guts out of the hub motor, is 9.4 kg leaving an outer wheel and rim of similar weight to say a ZERO. You will need to deduct back out of the 9.4 the chain or belt and sprocket drive to create an equal comparison. My guess would be about 5-9 lbs difference.
You have to consider also -Racers often load the axles of the bikes to deliberately make them heavy. When I drag raced my ZX, I used slabs of lead on the front fork legs at the axle to make sure the front stayed down and when coupled with the limit straps on the front, did not hook and eat me. Some guys fill the hollow front axle with lead. Similarly, and to address your claim, road racers run bikes with large hollow axles, so in traction challenging tracks, the “tune†is to fill that monster big hole in the axles with lead and sometimes to fasten slabs of lead on the rear swingarm. Usually the lead is worth about 3-5 lbs of load at the axle depending on the bike. When lead loaded, there is probably no weight difference vs the hub motor.
People are quick to talk about unsprung weight, but do not stop to think:
a) What does the chain, sprocket drive weigh?
b) What is the weight of the center of the chain drive wheel that the hub motor does not have?
c) For comparison, what is the weight of the ring and pinion and rear shaft drive parts in a BMW motorcycle?
We are building a 20 kw version of the hub motor with a spoked wheel and rim for a SuperMotard Racebike prototype. Pounding though the dirt and then onto the asphalt and back again will certainly show any issues.
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How about you just tell us what the complete motor/tire/wheel assembly weight is? Then it's a simple comparison, once you throw in half a belt's weight to a Zero assembly for good measure. I'm guessing your motor accounts for about a 30lb difference, based on the power claimed.
I've worked with a 10kW/20kW (peak) hub motor strung on a Ninja wheel. That assembly was easily in the range of 60-80lbs. "Not even remotely in the realm of weight of logic" indeed. ::)
People who "are quick to talk about unsprung weight" being insignificant are ignoring one thing - the entire body of suspension engineering work in the automotive and motorcycle industry. As I've said many times before, if you argue that it's not important or significant to your riding style or demands, fair enough. You prefer the feel? Fine. The tradeoff of available space makes it worth the hit on the handling? Be my guest.
If you're arguing that it doesn't have a negative impact on handling, or it enhances the handling in some magical way, you're simply misunderstanding, or misrepresenting physics. (Loading lead on racing suspension? Please. Be serious.) For those who want to learn more about unsprung weight, here's a good place to start: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/unsprung_weight.html (http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/unsprung_weight.html)
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Do you have something against hub engines? More unsprung weight shouldn't be a problem if the engineering behind it is solid. Both my Honda and BMW are shaft driven and those final drives aren't lightweight. But I guess now I know why insideeevs doesn't mention this new bike.
Lots of questions. In turn
ERASMO -as you suggested- I note, I am the designer of the bike, the head engineer and the President of ZEV.
You asked --The next model will be a 10 kwh battery pack like the ZEV LRC scooter that now runs 140 miles at 55 mph. 84 volt nominal, 15 kw continuous. We will see if there is any request for an in the tank storage space range extender, ala ZERO power tank. Easily done.
There is a motor laying in the shop for 20 kw higher rpm running. We know from testing in coast down and in towed drag measurements, that the bike can run 100 mph on 20 kw or 118 on 24 kw. Maybe in 2017 and then make the parts available as retrofit for anyone. I just cannot get to this for awhile. This whole motorcycle project has taken several years. Just not enough hours in the day.
Beyond the 20 kw, there is a large faired cruiser type bike carrying 25 kwh of battery that runs over 300 miles on a charge. About $20,000-$22. Before committing on that bike we will see where this current model design leads us.
Thanks, that intersting. It's good to see affordable faired bikes finally entering the market.
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Since when is factual information "having something against" something? (...and it's "motor", not "engine" 8)) Believe what you want, but if you want facts, as I said, follow the link.
I don't, and have done a considerable amount of research on them, if you'll read my blog. I think they're great on skateboards, scooters, trucks, and, like I said, if you're willing to take the hits that they impose, great on motorcycles. I've ridden them, worked on them, and have several friends who built hub-motor based bikes. I've had long conversations with both Mark at Enertrac about his 10kW motors and the dual-hub 20kW motors, as well as Jon from Catavolt who raced them very successfully in Australia, but ultimately found them to be not competitive at today's levels of performance.
Nowhere do I say I have anything against them. That's actually why I object to the term "phobia". It suggests an irrational fear. If you want to refer to a bunch of research, a solid understanding of motorcycle handling and fact-checking irrational, I don't know what to say.
Here's the summary: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/understanding-unsprung-weight-hub-motors/
What I do have an issue with is when people misunderstand or misrepresent the physics of unsprung weight to try to spin hub motors into something they're not. They are not, in any modern sense, a viable option for any performance-handling focused bike, and this bike doesn't compare in performance to a Zero SR past 2013.
They have significant drawbacks, too, which I don't really care to go into. I've done it all on the blog, as I worked out solutions for myself.
As far as your fairly off-topic snipe InsideEVs doesn't have a story about this bike because I'm the guy who generally writes about bikes and scooters, and over the last 6 or so years I've had correspondence with ZEV, it's pretty hard to get to the truth of the specs and claims. I was considering writing up this bike, in fact, but after visiting the site, there are so many stretched facts, omitted details and straight out untrue claims I don't have time to fact-check even just the ones on the bike and their top-end scooter. I'm not going to validate a product by writing a story on it without knowing as much as I can about it. Beyond that, we generally write about stuff that interests us on the site, because we do it out of passion, and frankly, this bike doesn't particularly interest me. I'll forward your interest to the editor and maybe someone else will be interested enough to write it up.
I've pointedly tried to avoid commenting on ZEV as a company, to try to keep the discussion based on the features of the bike, and the facts about hub motors.
You brought it up, sorry. :P
I will admit, however, I don't particularly like scooters, electric or otherwise. ...except silly ones. :D
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I tend to agree with Ted about the impact of unsprung wheel weight on motorcycle handling. I think it probably isn't that much of an issue on smooth roads, but can be a real problem when hitting pot-holed, bumpy and poorly maintained roads such as we have all over California. It is really tough for the suspension to deal with the inertia of a bouncing heavy wheel such as one containing a hub motor. Still, I can appreciate the simplicity of the design and the fact that it allows more room for additional batteries in the bike's chassis.
However, another concern for me (and one that I don't believe has been brought up yet) is how do you cool the motor? All of the hub motors that I have seen (such as the one used in the Vectrix) are completely sealed to protect them from the elements and can get very hot very quickly when asked to push the bike uphill or to high speeds for more than a few minutes. Unless there is some way to remotely cool the motor, such as via water cooling, the hub motor is going to quickly overheat and cut its power output - likely at a time when the rider might just need that power to prevent becoming a car's hood ornament. :'(
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They claim the motor is oil cooled. I was unable to determine which motors are oil cooled, how they're oil cooled (whether just by having oil passages in the motor, passively, which is what it sounded like to me when he described it to me a few years ago, or if there's a pump and a radiator, as most motors are that are "oil cooled") what the cooling options are (most motor manufacturers offer a few options on liquid cooling and air cooling) and how that figures into the load ratings. Maybe Mr. ZEV can answer. ::)
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Let me see if I can address these in turn.
Mr. Dillard
Since you stated "be serious" in the reference to lead loading of axles. Please search articles on MotoGP. You can start with Cycle World's November 2015 issue, "Feeling the Edge", page 67. "The usual fixes(like lead-filled axles---worked for Honda but not for Yamaha." I would admit that it is probably hard for you to find information such at that as most race bike tuners and engineers like myself do not publish their trade.
See also the forum that a quick search turns up on page 1, http://www.psychobike.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37028.html (http://www.psychobike.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37028.html)
RICHARD 230
The Vectrix motor is not a hub motor. Its a small high rpm motor mounted in the side of the swingarm, not in the wheel. The motor shaft sticks through the swingarm and into a planetary gearbox. You are correct, that motor, sealed up and under a cover with air flow does get quite hot.
At the 13-20 kw level, there is no need for cooling by any pumped flow means. The oil cooling is passive. On a 15 kw motor --After running sustained 80 mph on local mountain roads for 13 miles, then up an 8% grade, 5 miles long, at full throttle, with two 80 lb sandbags and a 168 lb rider, on a 92 F degree day, the motor reached 132 degrees F on the hottest point inside the motor. It showed 123 F on the motor side plates. The advantage is that the motor is turning in the breeze, and not relying on passing air entirely. It gets both. We are also using the entire wheel and spokes and the rim as a heat shedding surface. That is a lot of surface area spinning at over 1200 rpm and finned. The surface area without the fins on the ZERO motor is about 30% less than the surface of the ZEV motor without counting the total area including the wheel and rim being used to dump the heat. That spinning and resulting high velocity air scrubs off the heat over the large surface area.
That is a lot more effective than a motor such as the ZERO, which while heavily finned, sets passively buried in the chassis with no cooling air ducts to it, and the fins turned sideways to the forward motion. Further, fins on a motor are not very effective if the heat does not get to the finned area. The ZEV motor is finned on the inside also for that reason.
GENERAL
Within the confines of street bike spirited riding, even at high lean angles, but without dragging the slider pucks on the knees of my leathers, the hub motor weight is of no consequence. People worry to much about the weight. If it was all about ounces, then no bike would add a second iron disk and caliper on the front for more braking. They would ponder the weight shift of the change to inverted front forks. They would run smaller tires to cut tire weight.
The motor in the rear wheel weighs 9.4 kg. You need to deduct the weight of the chain drive sprocket or belt sprocket and the chain/belt on a non hub to have a comparison. Both types have an axle. That weight would be in common. We can assume that the weight of the wheels themselves without the motor would be similar.
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Why don't you have the weight of the assembly? Seems like that'd be data you'd have at your fingertips, considering the suspension had to be designed around it. (As far as your link, drag racing doesn't, last I checked, involve much in the way of bumps and twisties. When it does, things are going badly. ;D) I'll stick to the advice of my MotoGP tuner friends, thanks.
This is what I mean. WAY too much effort to get simple facts.
Back to what unsprung weight is all about if anyone still cares, it's important, too, to understand how incremental weight turns into significant weight with the addition of a few Gs. If you have one pound of unsprung weight, hit a bump, and get 2Gs, you now are suspending and damping 2lbs. Now, imagine the ZEV is a miracle motor and weighs 20lbs (the legendary ETEK is about 25lbs and is 7.5kW, if memory serves), you hit a bump, get 2G, now you're looking at 40lbs of inertia slapping your bike around. This is why stuff like inverted forks (which are stronger, as well as having less unsprung weight, to answer that question), trailing calipers, stuff like that is so important. Ounces DO matter. A pound here and a pound there, pretty soon you have a nice little tank-slapper going.
OK, I'm done. I've done this before, not going down this road again with the guy. Ciao.
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Ted Dillard
The 9.4 kg is the weight of the motor assembly as you asked. The wheel it fits in is 7.8 kg.
I see you ignored the MotorGP article on lead filling axles and choose to seize upon a claim that drag racing does not count in your book --regardless of speeds or track conditions. Ever been down the strip at 150+ Ted? Think the straight on a drag strip is different than the straight on the highway or on a road course? Think there no bumps and dips on drag strips? Ever been on the Ohio Mile, or other such runs?
Actually, you argue against yourself with the no twisties comment. The more a bike heels over, the less suspension in the bike. When upright the suspension works fully. At the extreme, when the bike is really heeled over, the force vector is into the side of the wheel and little if any suspension movement occurs. So on really bumpy tracks, its common to see race engineers run higher sidewalls in the tires so that becomes the suspension. The chassis also has to be made to flex. There was a time when chassis flex was the huge enemy, and chassis got more stiff --right to the point when bikes started handling badly, worse than ever, and flex was re engineered back into the chassis a few years back.
Your argument is incorrect in that 1 lb weight does not jump to a 2 lb weight with 2 g. You assume it accelerates with the weight of a feather, but weighs like an anvil when in motion. So back to the lead weights in the axle - higher weights resist g force by their inertia and do not just jump like you imagine. Further, any such action is further dampened by the tire sidewalls. Still further, such action is complicated by the rim width to tire width ratio mitigated by the sidewall height.
A common mistake is for people to assume that the reason engineers work on the weight of wheel assemblies is all about unsprung weight. The main factors are to reduce rotational enertia so the bike will accelerate and stop quicker, and total vehicle weight, as in how it effects power to weight.
While trying to make a point on the unsprung weight issue, do you have a clue what rear wheels on motorcycles really weigh? What does the rear wheel full assembly of a Honda SV1300 weigh, Harley anything, Hayabusa etc. We are not designing a MotoGP bike here Ted. This is about street bikes where bikes do not go into tank slappers because their rear wheel weighs more than that on race bike.
For the ultimate in what is very high unsprung weight, do you know what the entire motor and rear wheel assembly in a Suzuki 650 Burgman weighs? Now its not just the scooter drive train in a small diameter wheel, the twin cylinder engine is on that swingarm also. Yet big scooters like the Burgman or the Honda SilverWing have no issues running well over 110 mph and faster, faster than the bulk of the electric motorcycles that have been made--and doing it on 13 and 14 inch tires.
I am in this business to make vehicles, not just motorcycles, and not just to bench race. We make good solid value motorcycles/scooters/trikes that have sold worldwide for now coming on 10 years. There are clearly a lot of owners who do not get on the forums and complain that the unsprung weight is so terrible as Ted Dillard claimed. Never one. The absolute absence of such comment should be proof enough. After 10 years, you seem to claim that we must be blind to the issue and that all of those ZEV owners must be suffering catastrophic handling issues. Sorry Ted, its just not the case.
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Last try. I did not ask for the weight of the motor assembly. I clearly asked for the wheel, motor and tire assembly, thus eliminating any doubt as to the additional parts and pieces you feel will add up to what? Almost the weight of the hub motor? Preposterous.
...and I did not ignore your MotoGP comment. Did you not read my response? This is ridiculous, good luck selling your "motorcycle".
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/305128_2450967233061_761481547_n.jpg?oh=4a2de78b2b2b3efe5b0ed4fb60b49f4c&oe=56F9EDA6)
(update: I just had a conversation with a friend who's got to remain unnamed, but suffice to say he's one of the foremost authorities on motorcycles in general and MotoGP in specific. It's absolute "bunk" in his words, that tuners will add lead for unsprung weight for handling. They will, occasionally, add weight to meet minimum requirements, but that will be near the CG of the bike, which is not, by the way, as low as possible - in fact, good handling demands a higher CG than what might be intuitive. Any handling work is always - always - about lowering the unsprung weight.
Though I don't have weight on a Zero SR rear wheel assy, best guess is not more than 20lbs complete. A good forged wheel the same size is 10lbs, you have your brake rotor, your cush drive and your axle etc, plus the pulley. I figure that all weighs no more than 5lbs, but to be conservative I'll give it 10, until someone weighs a wheel for me. That doesn't include the tire. So your rear hub motor with wheel is a claimed weight of just short of 40lbs, 37 something, almost 20lbs heavier than the Zero. ...though, frankly, I find it hard to believe that motor can take that kind of continuous power rating - but that's me being particularly skeptical.
Was that so hard? :o )
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As I said Ted, the motor is 9.4 kg, the wheel is 7.8. 17.2 kg total including the axle and nuts and hardware.
Tires weigh all sorts of different weights so lets stick to the hard parts.
The race ready ZX10R Galespeed front wheel is 10.45 lbs. and rear 18 lbs even for forged aluminum for the bike. Most bikes are not as light as the ZX10. These are naked wheel weights, no disks, etc., no sprockets., fasteners.
Now add the axle and nuts for the ZX wheel and the ZEV wheel in full, motor and wheel is 8.62 kg heavier than the ZX10R
Thanks for the best wishes on the sales. The bike was first launched outside of the USA. It is doing quite well, better than expected or planned.
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dhzehrbach do you have plans to release a bigger scooter?
And by bigger I mean bigger wheels? I was talking with vetter about your scooter a year ago or so and he mentioned the tires were too small for stability with a streamliner (he speaking from experience with his little helix vs his previous bikes which had 16" tires)
He said he would have considered it had it had 16" tires on it because most of the work would be done to get the rider low.
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Hi Burton,
The plans now are only with the 13 inch wheels and tires. The CG is real low now, and no stability issues. Probably the main difference between Craigs Helx and the LRC is about 12-15 inches more wheelbase. That is a huge stabilizing factor that overwhelms tire diameter influence. With the 15 kw LRC I can run 83-84 mph. With a 20 kw bike that I am playing with I run 93-94 on the GPS. The only straight I can get that is flat here in the mountains is a long bridge over a gorge where side winds are always present. No problem though.
The LRC is a bit of a streamliner as it stands. That is why it gets the 140 miles on a 10 kw battery while the ZERO cannot do that at 55 mph on a 16 kw battery. We have looked at adding some panels to go run in Craigs Ohio run of 140 miles total and putting in a 80 mile booster pack under the seat. The total height of the LRC is lower than the new motorcycle which effects the drag also.
I invite you to come drive the LRC and see for yourself.
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You could easily make the scooter more streamline and give it a tail etc to compete ... you could even smooth out the front with some simple foam if you wanted to go the extra mile :D
I should be able to compete in the next Ohio challenge as by then my vetter fairing will be on the bike. I plan to run with the gas bikes when I do.
What is the range at 70mph+ (most vetter challenges are 70-80mph highway) and have you done any streamlining test beyond the final design ?
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Burton
The range at 70 we advertise at 70 miles. The battery company increased the battery capacity a bit, and customers report 80 and even 90 miles ( 90 is with a 140 lb rider) One fellow in Atlanta is running 80 miles on the Interstate commuting. But that will not get you the 140 miles at 70 that Vetter runs.
There was a Tesla Canada to Mexico rally schedule about 2 years ago that one of the customers was going to run in pulling a little trailer about 19 inches to the trailer top that had 2 LRC battery packs in it so he could run 280 miles at Interstate speeds. (Rally was cancelled)
We have done some more streamlining. Basically we need to close up the holes in the cowl for no through body air flow. That was the trick on this new motorcycle. The handlebars are pretty wide on the LRC and could be moved inboard so the hands were behind the fairing. We switched front fenders to a new more streamlined shape and partially hid some of the brake. See attached bike being assembled. The seat can be lowered easily and the windshield height reduced for some quick reductions.
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The 140 miles in the Ohio challenge wasn't in one go ... it is in two 70 mile sprints ;) http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2015-Challenge-pages/2015-VMD-Challenge-results.html (http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2015-Challenge-pages/2015-VMD-Challenge-results.html)
If you tack on some good chargers, button it up a bit, it will likely ride with the gas bikes just fine.
You can also cover the top half of your front wheel to get some added range as well. I would love to see a relatively unknown competitor come in and snatch the vetter challenge away from everyone with a production model bike which has little modification :)
Of course you could always tow extra batters as well ... some EV competitors do this.
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Burton
The range at 70 we advertise at 70 miles. The battery company increased the battery capacity a bit, and customers report 80 and even 90 miles ( 90 is with a 140 lb rider) One fellow in Atlanta is running 80 miles on the Interstate commuting. But that will not get you the 140 miles at 70 that Vetter runs.
There was a Tesla Canada to Mexico rally schedule about 2 years ago that one of the customers was going to run in pulling a little trailer about 19 inches to the trailer top that had 2 LRC battery packs in it so he could run 280 miles at Interstate speeds. (Rally was cancelled)
We have done some more streamlining. Basically we need to close up the holes in the cowl for no through body air flow. That was the trick on this new motorcycle. The handlebars are pretty wide on the LRC and could be moved inboard so the hands were behind the fairing. We switched front fenders to a new more streamlined shape and partially hid some of the brake. See attached bike being assembled. The seat can be lowered easily and the windshield height reduced for some quick reductions.
Stop making us envious! ;D If it weren't for the fact that you can plug them into DC fast chargers I would have ordered one already ;D
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I see on the Vetter site, that they do stop at the end of the 70 mile run for lunch. About an hour. So you are correct, I had not considered that before. The 18 amp standard charger, if coupled with the underseat battery pack could make the trip. If they have a place so that I could switch the charger to 220, its more than possible with only minor streamlining consisting of air gap closure, and a rear box behind the rider to hold all of the grocery bags that would blend in the tail more. If I were to run the Challenge, I would prefer to do it with a stock looking bike if possible. But the seat is an arc underneath and a lot of space there, so it could be lowered another 3-5 inches without touching the bodywork and then the windshield cut down to match (or eliminated)
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There are several places to charge around the hall of fame where we stop. All are 220v with some charge point at L1
See if you can get a crew out there next year ;) Or sponsor one of your current owners to do it. :D
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Sir what is the closest airport to you?
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That would be probably http://www.morgantownairport.com/ (http://www.morgantownairport.com/)
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CNTRBURN---Hub motors need not turn rpm, as even on the 84 mph LRC scooter with a 13 inch wheel, its never over 1400 rpm. On the taller 18 inch wheel, its really loafing. So the span of rpm between 0 and max is so little the torque is very linear.
We are a bit odd in that we heat the motors in a hot box to 300 degrees F, and then put them on the dyno. They run there at max power as we watch the temperatures come down while running full power. When the temps stabilize, we hold another 3 minutes of full power. Then we check the torque and rpm, etc. So the torque is sustainable.
The hub motor has some advantage in that it is not buried in the chassis like the ZERO motor so it gets good cooling air. Since it is turning, it is its own cooling fan. The entire wheel becomes heat sink/cooling fin.
dhzehrbach
Hype is good and you certainly have something you are proud of, but it does tend to stray from the question.
I do feel that I've created a dialog where you shouldn't have to re-prove the validity of hub motors.
I'd like to compare your torque measurement (however it was done) to the behavior of other cycles also of Known torque (Zero S and Zero SR) that I have ridden. As the details of your methodology is more information... it still lacks the comparative. We know the front tire will not wheelie... as we try to determine what does it do with those 206 torques...
0-60?
60-0?
These do merit direct answers, and will really help establish comparatives.
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I like the fairing! You should sell it to zero so they improve their range a little bit more ^^
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ermmm.... I'm a little concerned about this right here (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2015-new-electric-sports-motorcycle-HONDAGT_60348908211.html) on alibaba...
Are these guys just switching out the powerplant?.... are they even switching out the powerplant? - that hub motor looks pretty close too.
ZEV M-S
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M-13+wb.jpg)
alibaba ZX3000GT
(http://g04.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Xd9aKXXXXXXgXXXXq6xXFXXXH/2015-new-electric-sports-motorcycle-HONDAGT-with.jpg)
ZEV M-S
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M-13+front+view+wb.jpg)
alibaba ZX3000GT
(http://g03.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iqRIKXXXXXbVXVXXq6xXFXXXq/2015-new-electric-sports-motorcycle-HONDAGT-with.jpg)
ZEV M-S
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M-13+meter+panel+wb.jpg)
alibaba ZX3000GT
(http://g04.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1GTN9KXXXXXbOXXXXq6xXFXXXh/2015-new-electric-sports-motorcycle-HONDAGT-with.jpg)
Now I'm not for one minute suggesting that there wouldn't be added value in the work that could be done with this chinese import chassis if it were the case that things are how they appear to be from the pics above... but it does seem a little disingenuous, particularly when they claim to be a US manufacturer (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/13.html).
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Anyone else starting to get a Kiwami / Terra Motors vibe here.
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Spoonman
I recommend that before going off on a tangent, you look at the bike you just presented and its specs.
The page you sent us to shows this Chinese bike to be:
1) Powered by little 35 ah lead battery, not 100 ah cells like the ZEV, so only 2.52 kwh which you should then realize or indicate to you that the frame is not the same. So only 1/3rd the battery capacity indicating that this bike must be much smaller than the ZEV.
2) The wheel sizes are not 18 like the ZEV, but 17 front, and 16 inch rear. So the frame geometery, if the same frame, would be all wrong.
3) Max power 3,000 watts, not 13,000
4) The motor is not the same at all such that besides the wrong size wheel, the right hand view of the motor shows it is made differently.
5) Swingarm is different
6) Bottom of the cowl has openings and you can see daylight clear through the bike. So different bodywork on the cowl, even if it appears they must be buying the same light.
7) Brakes do not match
8) No controller visible
9) The cowling side has see through V panel, not the blue translucent panel on the ZEV.
10) The view of the right side does not seem to show a foot brake which is required on motorcycles in Western country.
11) Max speed claimed of 60 mph.
12) Further indicating that the bike is a much smaller bike, is the weight at only 142 kg.
11) The price of the bike is $1380. That alone should have given you pause. What do you think that you get for $1380.
If you or anyone else think this is a ZEV, you certainly should order one or hundreds. The price is $1380. Save yourself $11,110 compared to a ZEV. Such a deal
What this does point out is one of the issues in developing products. We use plastic mold houses in China to produce the parts. You get 2 year maximum agreement to not sell anything you design to anyone else. Development times on bikes run longer than that. So sometimes at the tho year mark you can see versions of your design pop up with modifications so they can say they do not sell exactly what you designed. At the 4 year mark they just sell your original. We have seen this on some of the scooters.
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Looking at at least one of the pictures on ZEV's site I can see the same swing arm and brakes as on the Chinese bike.
My guess is that ZEV are buying these in from China as cheap Gliders and then fitting their own power train, swing arm, brakes and other items.
I suspect that the list above is a list of changes to the Chinese gliders... ;)
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I also notice on the Chinese web site that this bike is not certified anywhere for legal sale, not EEC, definitely not the USA.
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The Zev Site is really weird, one of the pictures of the bike really does appear to the chinese bike, motor and swing arm, others seem to show the motor and swing arm have been replaced.
You can see it in the pictures Spoonman posted, the Top picture of the Zev-MS clearly has the same motor and swing arm of the Chinese bike, and that picture is the same one as the first picture on the http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/30.html (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/30.html) page.
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Interesting...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hey Zev - I'm out.
Airplanes, shipping damage, now EV motorcycles.
O U T out.
Just Zero's for me.
Even if a Zev passes me on the road.
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What this does point out is one of the issues in developing products. We use plastic mold houses in China to produce the parts. You get 2 year maximum agreement to not sell anything you design to anyone else. Development times on bikes run longer than that. So sometimes at the tho year mark you can see versions of your design pop up with modifications so they can say they do not sell exactly what you designed. At the 4 year mark they just sell your original. We have seen this on some of the scooters.
I'm going to go ahead and say that you got access to their bike, and this is not your design. It certainly explains why the ZEV has such a dinky swing arm compared to the original.
(http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/resources/ZEV+M13+left+side+wb.jpg)
And why the controller is mounted externally. I do hope your modifications are worth the $9,730 price difference between the two bikes, as you were so generous to point out. You don't want your customers wondering where their money went.
In all seriousness, everyone here understands how difficult it is to develop a new electric motorcycle. It's perfectly forgivable to start with someone else's architecture and go from there, but that should be disclosed from the start. That it took an enthusiast to uncover it makes us ask what else you're hiding.
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Spoonman
I recommend that before going off on a tangent, you look at the bike you just presented and its specs.
Slow down there dude - I'm not tangenting anywhere - hell, that wasn't even an attack, I was just looking for some clarfications.
You can't deny that it looks like the same chassis, that's undeniable no matter how you cut it; and I've no doubt that the drivetrain you specify is different to that advertised in the add I linked, but that's something that's well within the capabilities of chinese manufacturers to produce as well at simple email request.
I even stated that there was plenty of space for added value in the development of that chinese chassis, were that what you are in fact doing.
The only real question was with regard to how the company can claim to be a US manufacturer in light of the existence of that product.
Now, if you're telling me that they've taken your plastics which you had them manufacture, and thrown them onto their own product, then OK, despite the idendical clocks and screw placements, which indicate absolutely no change whatsoever from your design, I'll agree to go along with that for the moment.
The front calipers, forks and triples all look shockingly similar as well though.
Yes, you've changed the wheel sizes, and the brake disks, looks like the rear caliper too; but the swingarm still looks too similar for comfort in many of your shots, and even the motor, though unquestionable different, has the same housing style as the original - you've even a picture elsewhere on your site of the 5kW motor which is undeniably similar to that offered on several other chinese offerings.
Of everything though, the one single detail that really sets me off - is that center stand.
That odd, unfinished angle that it hangs at.
You're trying to tell me:
- that there's a centerstand that hangs at that god awful angle,
- on two unrelated bikes
- which just happen to differ only in basic configuration changes (as far as can be told from the photographs)
- and that these bikes aren't produced by the same manufacturer??
That's thin dude - that's seriously thin.
What exactly are you manufacturing in the USA?
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That easy to answer ,that joke of a swingarm. ,lol. At least Zero has always stated whats their own design and what parts they source from other manufactures.
Zevs website is very lite on details and no high res photos.
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Yeah China bike from the looks of it but... I still like a lot of the features. I think the tank storage is niiiice. I'm sorry but a "good" center stand may not look cool but it makes life much easier for adjustments. I don't know enough about hub motors to say good or bad but I know you can't get the mechanical advantage of gearing so that's limiting. And hey fairings fairings fairings give that china link to Zero.
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I'm sorry but a "good" center stand may not look cool but it makes life much easier for adjustments
I couldn't agree more - a *good* centerstand is a fantastic addition to anything but a trackbike.
A *good* centerstand usually folds neatly up to the underside of the chassis as well though.
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Heh, for the LoLs I decided to do a reverse image search on other ZEV bikes.
This 150cc (Russian?) Scooter looks familiar.
https://tehnosklad.com/300_Motoczikly/47927_Motoczikl_tachilla_galaxy_ry150t_39_belyj (https://tehnosklad.com/300_Motoczikly/47927_Motoczikl_tachilla_galaxy_ry150t_39_belyj)
Or this
http://agromototehnika.com/p34662883-ckuter-skybike-master.html (http://agromototehnika.com/p34662883-ckuter-skybike-master.html)
How about this one
http://agromototehnika.com/p19498882-ckuter-yiben-yb150t.html (http://agromototehnika.com/p19498882-ckuter-yiben-yb150t.html)
;)
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No response from dhz yet. This is why industry managers should avoid getting too into forum discussions.
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https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/zev-does-it-again-launches-motorcycle-bs/ (https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/zev-does-it-again-launches-motorcycle-bs/)
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https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/zev-does-it-again-launches-motorcycle-bs/ (https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/zev-does-it-again-launches-motorcycle-bs/)
I don't know why I'm getting into this discussion, but this blog is from the same guy who was arguing on pages 1 & 2. I haven't been coming around enough to know everyone's background, but the fact that he unregistered and now has guest status makes me suspicious. As a Zero SR owner, I wish all e-bikes the best of luck. Maybe this guy is selling vaporware, but if so, he's one hell of a con.
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He just wanted some simple questions answered. And I also want EV to succeed but i also don't want people to spend money on vechicles that dont meet the specs advertised and poorly made. Buyer beware.
I think ted makes some valid point and asked the right questions.
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He just wanted some simple questions answered. And I also want EV to succeed but i also don't want people to spend money on vechicles that dont meet the specs advertised and poorly made. Buyer beware.
I think ted makes some valid point and asked the right questions.
I have been reading up on the topic since that post. It does seem as though important questions are consistently avoided. Another point made by someone else was the lack of video. I shot video of the first time I rode my Zero SR. It was very simple and I don't understand why there is nothing but old scooter videos on YouTube. If I had put in all the work to build this bike, I'd have tons of videos showing all the details I could.
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Unless a video can prove you wrong.... Probably make sure that video never came out if you could....
To me I don't understand how the hub can stay clean or suspended if I go through a big puddle or anything g like that what about jumping off a curb will that impact hurt the hub motor?
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I have been reading up on the topic...
lol - fivespeed, if you don't know who Ted Dillard is then you've still got a hell of a lot of reading to do. ;-)
I'd recommend starting here: From Fossil to Flux (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fossils-Flux-Third-Ted-Dillard-ebook/dp/B00E6TZ3G2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1447151113&sr=8-2&keywords=ted+dillard)
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I don't know why I'm getting into this discussion, but this blog is from the same guy who was arguing on pages 1 & 2. I haven't been coming around enough to know everyone's background, but the fact that he unregistered and now has guest status makes me suspicious.
FYI, that guy is also in the process of writing what will probably be the definitive history of electric motorcycles.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/952491968/power-in-flux-the-history-of-electric-motorcycles (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/952491968/power-in-flux-the-history-of-electric-motorcycles)
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FYI, that guy is also in the process of writing what will probably be the definitive history of electric motorcycles.
Ok, so what's up with the "guest" status?
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FYI, that guy is also in the process of writing what will probably be the definitive history of electric motorcycles.
Ok, so what's up with the "guest" status?
He's taking a break from the discussion boards to focus on the book. I think he got kinda fed up with some of the discussions recently, particularly about safety. He's a good guy, knows his stuff, has a temper. We've got all kinds of characters in our little EV world!
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I like Ted, he speaks his mind, and is forthright.
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I like Ted, he speaks his mind, and is forthright.
My only issue with him was the unregistering. Maybe it had to do with alerts, who knows. He certainly made some good points and asked several important questions and got only a few answers, without much to back it up.
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I like Ted, he speaks his mind, and is forthright.
My only issue with him was the unregistering. Maybe it had to do with alerts, who knows. He certainly made some good points and asked several important questions and got only a few answers, without much to back it up.
I would'nt sweat it, Ted recently secured money through crowdfunding to write a book about the history of electric motorsports, chances are, as Ben suggests, that he is withdrawing from the online world for a while to concentrate on it.
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maybe these guys are using the same Chinese supplier too
http://voltmotorcycles.com/electric-motorcycle-volt220 (http://voltmotorcycles.com/electric-motorcycle-volt220)
-ryan
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Interesting how this thread took off and ran in many directions... jus wanted to throw my two cents in.
My '07 Vectrix has a hub motor (unsprung weight) - I now have over 17K miles on it and it still runs strong. BUT, it has neve done well with bumps/potholes. Each bump I run over means a harsh jolt to the bike (and to me!). I learned this early on, of course, so I carefully avoid all bumps/potholes as much as I can. My Vectrix is almost 9 yrs old now - and I've never had any problems with it - so I can't say that hob-motor design has any disadvantages as far as longevity, power, etc.
My '15 Zero SR, on the other hand, does just fine over bumps/potholes - although I still try to steer clear when possible ;-)
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maybe these guys are using the same Chinese supplier too
http://voltmotorcycles.com/electric-motorcycle-volt220 (http://voltmotorcycles.com/electric-motorcycle-volt220)
-ryan
yup, I expect they are - missed the CEO at a conference there recently, had been looking forward to grilling him on exactly that point.
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Sorry, not to hijack the thread, but ZEV and Volt Motorcycles are NOT Evoke Electric Motorcycles.
www.evokemotorcycles.com (http://www.evokemotorcycles.com)
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I have been reading up on the topic...
lol - fivespeed, if you don't know who Ted Dillard is then you've still got a hell of a lot of reading to do. ;-)
I'd recommend starting here: From Fossil to Flux (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fossils-Flux-Third-Ted-Dillard-ebook/dp/B00E6TZ3G2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1447151113&sr=8-2&keywords=ted+dillard)
OK, this made me LOL. I'm thinking of making T-shirts.
Exactly, Ben. I did get off the forums to complete Power in Flux... I just find them (all of them, not just this one...) to be even more of a time-sink than Facebook, which is sayin' something. :o
Why that should be an issue (@Fivespeed302) I have no idea, but I was able to double down and get the book done. The funniest part of that process was, about a month before I thought I had it wrapped up, an insider buddy said, "OH! have you spoken to my buddy ELY? You really should..." Well it turns out that "Ely" is Ely Schless, who, basically, is the grandpappy of everything you know and love about electric motorcycles. Three more chapters and I was ready to go to print. 8)
Anyway, I'm back (I guess, though I've kind of moved on into robotics a bit) and wanted to thank the community again for the support the book got, and continues to get. Sorry to hijack this moldy old thread, but I couldn't resist...
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OK, this made me LOL. I'm thinking of making T-shirts.
Exactly, Ben. I did get off the forums to complete Power in Flux... I just find them (all of them, not just this one...) to be even more of a time-sink than Facebook, which is sayin' something. :o
Why that should be an issue (@Fivespeed302) I have no idea, but I was able to double down and get the book done. The funniest part of that process was, about a month before I thought I had it wrapped up, an insider buddy said, "OH! have you spoken to my buddy ELY? You really should..." Well it turns out that "Ely" is Ely Schless, who, basically, is the grandpappy of everything you know and love about electric motorcycles. Three more chapters and I was ready to go to print. 8)
Anyway, I'm back (I guess, though I've kind of moved on into robotics a bit) and wanted to thank the community again for the support the book got, and continues to get. Sorry to hijack this moldy old thread, but I couldn't resist...
Welcome back. De-registered accounts break the user experience somewhat as the profile is deleted and you cannot click on a deleted user profile and view their posts. If there were a way to re-activate a deleted account I would do that for you, but I don't see any option to do this. Admin might be able to run a database query and move your old posts onto the new user account, to restore continuity, and if that is something you would like please file a moderator report and I will follow up with them. I think that the appearance of abandoning the forum (versus "on holiday" from the forum) is what some people are referring to. Sorry about that, I agree the forum software should allow someone to go into hibernation without breaking the user experience.
The book is awesome!
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Thanks - Glad you like it!
No worries, I'm good with it.