ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Rugby4life on August 17, 2018, 07:36:08 AM
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Every year when the rumors fly about a possible new model to be added to the Zero line, all the buzz is about some superbike class mystery machine. I understand they are "Halo" models to prove you're a "serious" manufacturer, but they are very thin slice of the overall sales pie. Due to their small sales volume and high development costs, the are seldom profitable.
Instead, I'd like to see Zero go fishing in the high profit categories where the characteristics of electric drive naturaly flourish. Cruisers are all about instant torque and stop light to stoplight acceleration. They don't need to be geared for 150mph or have a particularly long range. If it can make it through the typical poker run, you're golden. Touring bikes would be another natural fit as the smoothness of the electric motor makes gobbling highway miles a breeze. A Goldwing size EM could easily carry 30-35kw of battery and, with well designed bodywork, should be pretty efficient at 70-80mph. At this battery size DCFC would be essential. The most positive attribute in this category is that Goldwing/ElectraGlide/K1600GTL owners are used to spending $25-35k for their bikes. Just my 2 cents.
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I agree with you totally. The reason EVs vehicles have not been accepted beyond the paltry 1-2% is because of the failure to produce an EV pickup. Few want a little tin box car. PickupsSUVs are what sells. (Just the F150 model sells more a year than 3yrs of all EVs combined.) Same applies to motorcycles. Cruisers are what a majority wants. First company to produce a viable cruiser gets my business. Love my zero, but would love a Zero Cruiser way more.
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For some, max HP and track worthiness are truly valuable.
More many, many more, it's about compensation.
If I knew how to post a photo, it would be of a short ruler. No, I'm not going to explain.
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I'm personally a perfy sport-bike person, but I think we're all onboard with wanting to see Zero and e-motos in general hitting that mass-market volume-production-oriented model too :)
To be fair, I think Zero is at least attempting to medium-upper-end / somewhat volume market themselves and not go full custom made-to-order superbike.
The real production superbikes in the e-moto category are stuff like the Lightning LS-218, Mission RS, and Energica bikes, all of which are a significant price and rider-insanity-level bump up from the Zero.
If Zero doesn't make a heavy, not-absurdly-performant cruiser, I anticipate at least someone will fill the niche, whether it be some upcoming desperate attempt from Harley-Davidson to sell anything including e-motos to people less than baby-boomer age, or someone like Harlan offering a semi-custom Zero cruiser with more battery heft than raw power.
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Superbikes..
If you want to be taken seriously: prove it in racing.
That's just how it works for cars and bikes.
If it doesn't fail under high performance the general public will also buy your normal cars/products because they trust your product and want to have a 'winner' brand.
And why no EV Ford-F150?
Simple:
an EV has to be as light and slim as possible to be succesfull on range (for now). And what is a F150?..... Right 8)
So the challence would be too make a big very light frame wich is strong enough and doing so also doesn't go over the weight of a normal F150 with the very heavy battery needed for this sized car.
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Cruisers are what a majority wants
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I think not, but they should have a model cruiser, Zero would sell better in general.
They also should build a superbike and a chopper.
But don't forget Zero is focussing worldwide sales of their bikes, not just the 'me first' attitude and forget about the rest of the world.....
In Europe the real touring bike is: BMW R1200GS with all options available.
It's like they giving them for free or something, and they definitely aren't for free!! (touring version for >25000 euro)
So Zero came with the "Black Forest edition" of the DS.
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Press release | March 1st | Zero Motorcycles, the global electric motorcycle sales and innovation leader, today announced the release of the Zero Motorcycles DSR Black Forest Edition. Designed exclusively for European consumers, the new model has been developed to meet the growing demand of riding enthusiasts seeking to tour on electric. It offers the longest range of any electric dual sport by leveraging the highest power and energy density battery tech in the EV industry.
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https://electricmotorcycles.news/zero-motorcycles-announce-new-dsr-black-forest-edition/
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You are right dennis!
Does Tesla provide a pick-up? No and they are so successfull. OK, there is the TMX in the "big is beautiful" market segment.
Instead of trying to mimmick a F150-like EV, it seems more logic to focus on what "enlighted people" really need. Those F150 lovers are dinosaurs. They will never switch to EV, just let them disappear through natural selection.
Zero Motorcycles cannot afford so far the design of a superbike, and even less a racing subsidiary.
Classic age people want a brand which wins races.
New age people check the forums like this one to know from non-biased sources what's really good for them. And yes, these people are still a minority!
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Agree, cruisers are the best selling category in the US because most motorcycle buyers are over 50. I think when the market changes the type of bikes will change too. I don't see Zero selling many cruisers if they offered them. The people buying cruisers will never give up their exhaust notes and manual transmissions either.
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Right now the hot market for motorcycles is the GS-style off-road/SUV look. Zero may have a small finger in that styling pie with their DS models, but they need to step up their game with a larger chassis and a more rugged look. Right now you can hardly see the difference between the S and DS models.
As for a Zero cruiser, that is going to cost a bundle to design and develop. I am not sure that Zero has the resources to carry that out.
Also, it is interesting that none of H-D's EV concepts seem to be heading in that direction, no matter what their customers would probably want. ??? I can offer no explanation for their apparent future EV plans that don't show any type of cruiser platform other than that they don't want to alienate their customer base who would make fun of an electric cruiser.
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"I don't see Zero selling many cruisers if they offered them. The people buying cruisers will never give up their exhaust notes and manual transmissions either."
Agreed; there's probably not a motorcycle market segment less likely to adopt electric than the traditional cruiser segment. That's a market that's defined by perception: appearance of the bike, sound of the bike, and brand of the bike. 90%+ of the cruiser market (in the US, at least) is so averse to anything removed from those criteria that they wouldn't even buy the v-rod. If water cooled and low slung from HD doesn't get bites, nothing else will. Silent, electric, and no transmission? Non-starter for those folks.
And the tech isn't yet up to par for the vast majority of the touring segment. Even with a range of 300+ miles you're not going to get bites from those guys until you're looking at 10-15 minute charge times off of any 110V household outlet. I love my FXS, but I absolutely would not have bought it if I didn't already have an ICE bike in the stable. Great for my 40 mile commute, great for quick errands, and superb for screwing about on backroads, but if I'm headed anywhere involving real distance or carrying anything weighty, I'm hopping on a gasser.
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It is the same with me.
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It is the same with me.
Neh, will never drive a gasbike again, will work around it.
But cruisers, why not?
If you have a stock Japanese or even HD you hear almost nothing already (in Europe?)
Owners transform them.
So they could with a sound system?
Neh, they won't.
Owned a Guzzi and the sound of engine and vibrations :D :D :D.
But not needed for riding a cruiser.
If they make the Guzzi electric, I buy it, Guzzi is more than just the engine, it's the driving position, handling and looks.
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"But cruisers, why not?"
In Europe, sure.
But in the US, really unlikely -- the cruiser thing in the US is dominated by a very specific culture to which change is abhorrent. And I'm not just talking in terms of the bikes they use (the sound, look, all that hasn't really changed since the 1940s) but the kind of people in the US who buy the bikes. Overwhelmingly white, conservative, and either blue collar or want to fit the image and all the baggage that comes with it. It's a shockingly uniform culture and scene and, at least here, very hostile to change. I mean, look at how many people (in the US, at least) who are furious that HD is offering an unusual headlight shape on the Fat Bob -- like raging angry about it. And the moaning about the Street lineup. It's bizarre to witness.
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I just like sportbikes because:
They're comfortable at speed.. and thats how I am when I am riding them around here.. its all highways and interstates, very little inner city/down.
They're safer. You can stop faster. Your only limitation is traction and your skill level.
They're safer. You can turn easier, both lowspeed and highspeed. Doesnt matter if I am doing 90 on the interstate a little push-push and I can move over anywhere with precision.
They're narrow. Just because you can stop on the interstate, doesnt mean the guy behind you can. you can cut between cars accurately and then nail the brakes to stop. While other bikes can also do this, most are wider.
They're fun. Your limitation of acceleration is limited by your center of gravity. Not traction (in good conditions of course).. and certainly not power.
They make amazing touring bikes... On the interstate or hwy you dont have to downshift to pass... you just roll the throttle back and it has plenty of power. You get to your destination, and you have something you can enjoy riding there... not a boat.
They're nicer to your neighbors... just like it doesnt need a downshift on the road, you can also keep it up a few gears in the neighborhood... and as long as you're not a dipshit with a aftermarket exhaust it will be almost silent...
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I just like sportbikes because:
They're comfortable at speed.. and thats how I am when I am riding them around here.. its all highways and interstates, very little inner city/down.
They're safer. You can stop faster. Your only limitation is traction and your skill level.
They're safer. You can turn easier, both lowspeed and highspeed. Doesnt matter if I am doing 90 on the interstate a little push-push and I can move over anywhere with precision.
They're narrow. Just because you can stop on the interstate, doesnt mean the guy behind you can. you can cut between cars accurately and then nail the brakes to stop. While other bikes can also do this, most are wider.
They're fun. Your limitation of acceleration is limited by your center of gravity. Not traction (in good conditions of course).. and certainly not power.
They make amazing touring bikes... On the interstate or hwy you dont have to downshift to pass... you just roll the throttle back and it has plenty of power. You get to your destination, and you have something you can enjoy riding there... not a boat.
They're nicer to your neighbors... just like it doesnt need a downshift on the road, you can also keep it up a few gears in the neighborhood... and as long as you're not a dipshit with a aftermarket exhaust it will be almost silent...
But they are not selling all that well in the current fickle market. Everyone wants ADV bikes right now. ???
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But they are not selling all that well in the current fickle market. Everyone wants ADV bikes right now. ???
Posers want whatever is popular.. and then they usually want to lower them so they can flat-foot it.
Previously it was hipster-ish older bikes... before that it was motards (that I also love) and before that everyone wanted "a ninja"...
For the people riding to be cool, they go with the trends.
You shouldnt expect superbikes to sell well.. the only way to ride them safely is to first get beginner riding out of the way, then progress through slower sportbikes, before you stick your butt on a sub-400 pound machine with more power than most cars.
So only a small subset of experienced riders should even be sitting on them. Even if you've been riding for decades, if you havent been working on that skillset, and just putting around town occasionally, you probably should not be on one.
If I bought my CBR1000RR when I started riding, I probably would have killed myself.. same for my CR500... To this day, if I havent ridden the 500 for awhile I ride around on something slower like a 450 four-stroke for a bit to get my bearings before going all hooligan on the CR. These machines are great if you're used to them, respect them and have the ability to safely ride them... they are not great for posers, newbies, squids, etc.
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And why no EV Ford-F150?
Simple:
an EV has to be as light and slim as possible to be succesfull on range (for now). And what is a F150?..... Right 8)
So the challence would be too make a big very light frame wich is strong enough and doing so also doesn't go over the weight of a normal F150 with the very heavy battery needed for this sized car.
Right, anyone who would try to build a big heavy EV truck must not know anything about how electric vehicles work.
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That was like shooting fish in a barrel. Model X weighs 2.5 tons, and the S almost as much. Batteries are heavy.
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I agree with you totally. The reason EVs vehicles have not been accepted beyond the paltry 1-2% is because of the failure to produce an EV pickup. Few want a little tin box car. PickupsSUVs are what sells. (Just the F150 model sells more a year than 3yrs of all EVs combined.) Same applies to motorcycles. Cruisers are what a majority wants. First company to produce a viable cruiser gets my business. Love my zero, but would love a Zero Cruiser way more.
Only in the bizarre US are pickups a thing. Nowhere else are pickups used primarily for personal transportation, so they're not a good model choice for a company that wants to sell globally (as Zero does -- they sell in several dozen countries).
And ditto for cruisers. The market segment that wants cruiser motorcycles isn't going to appreciate electric motorcycles, for the most part.