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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: sharagan on October 20, 2020, 04:16:52 PM
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Hi Guys,
I would like to ask about your observations on battery SOC drop on a parked motorcycle. I noticed a drop from 60% to 55% in 3 days and to 50% in a week.
I have a Zero FXS 7.2 2020. It is parked in a heated garage with 20 degrees Celsius and no direct sunlight.
Is this normal or should I be worried?
Otherwise the bike is great and I managed to put 1000kms on it in a period of a month.
Thanks in advance for your observations.
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That sounds unusually high; I thought figures of just a few % in a month were the norm, even connected to the BMS.
Cas :)
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Doesn't seem normal to me too, that is the reason why I wanted to check with you guys for comparison. By the way, I charge it with the onboard charger and the firmware is up to date.
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I have a 2020 FXS 7.2 as well. Mine does not do that.
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Do you think that leaving it for 24h on the charger and aligning the cells would resolve the issue? Thanks.
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Hi Sharagan,
as you wrote, try charging it up fully and let it sit for a day or two afterwards. This would rule out miscalculated SOC.
If it is still discharging then, something isn't right.
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Mine loses a % per day, but it depends upon what I left it at (higher == more loss) and what the temperature swing was. If the swing was 50° I'll lose several percent.
-Crissa
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Hi Crissa, did you by any chance consult it with the dealer? I'm interrested, what they had to say to it.
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Those number seem unusually high for a discharge rate even at that SOC. For long term winter storage on my 2018 FXS 7.2, I've seen a few percent drop over a month or two during a Chicago winter (temps ranging from -10c to 10c). This was following the manual and starting at 60% SOC.
Since the USA can't get their *stuff* together with the Coronavirus and I haven't been riding as much and I have seen some quicker drops from a 100% SOC in recent months. I was thinking it might be related to the battery getting older, but am now wondering if it has anything to do with recent firmwares. Time to test and gather some logs.
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The service tech said a small amount of loss is normal. My overall range is pretty near what you'd expect, so... I dunno.
I think it doesn't like temperature flux.
-Crissa
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1%/day on my 2020 FX7.2
I should specify that it was from 100% to 92% over 8 days plus minus a day.
I have my bike at a second mountain home so it spends a a lot of time in the garage.
This winter will be a good test of the storage mode that I read about here.
31% loss in 23 days (1.3%/day) of sitting in a cool garage.
Did we ever get an explanation of where the electrons are leaking to?
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Hi Guys,
I would like to ask about your observations on battery SOC drop on a parked motorcycle. I noticed a drop from 60% to 55% in 3 days and to 50% in a week.
I have a Zero FXS 7.2 2020. It is parked in a heated garage with 20 degrees Celsius and no direct sunlight.
1%/day on my 2020 FX7.2
WTF? That doesn't seem right.
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It really isn't. That's the discharge rate of an olde worlde lead-acid battery, not a state of the art lithium jobbie.
Cas :)
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Mine is currently at the dealer, they charged it to 100%, let it sit and same result 1% a day. This is roughly what I observed as well. Funny thing is that they compared it with one of their demo bikes and it was the same(in a heated workshop). Thanks Havec for sharing, glad I am not the only one. But still this is strange, hope it gets sorted. Next step is for Zero to log onto the bike.
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Hi, I have also a FXS2020, I have witnessed the same about 1% discharging a day. But as a remark I have also seen that this discharging rate is slowing down below 60% of load to about 1% every 3 days? I haven't questioned this until yet, please keep recording the feedback you receive from your dealer. For sure, it would be handy it the discharging rate would be lowered.
Jan :)
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Useful info here: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge
It seems that an average of 1% / day might be par for the course. Interesting how it discharges faster the warmer it is and the more fully charged it is.
Cas :)
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Hi Princec,
thanks for the article, it is interesting. It seems that you understood it a bit wrongly as it states: "5% in 24h, then 1–2% per month (plus 3% for safety circuit)" which is no way near to 1% a day or a drop from 60% to 50% in more than a week.
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Of course one problem here is that the SOC as shown on the Zero dash is not absolute number, it's been put through a couple of filters, algorithms, and lookup tables and so on until it arrives with a figure. Were I tasked with writing such a bit of firmware I'd be looking at the filtered measured voltage over the last several minutes, the time elapsed since the last known charge of any reasonable duration, the battery temperature, and a great big bunch of lookup table data collected from lab testing.
Cas :)
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Even if there are any claimed algorithms and filters in play to show an approximate or absolute number, it does not change anything about the fact that the SOC is decreasing more rapidly than it is normal for this type of battery.
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For the 2020+ models Zero had to add an always on OBD power supply and sometimes a second OBD port to meet European regulations. If you have one of those, that may increase battery drain. I don't know if they changed all bikes or just European ones.
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Even if there are any claimed algorithms and filters in play to show an approximate or absolute number, it does not change anything about the fact that the SOC is decreasing more rapidly than it is normal for this type of battery.
Well, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying... all you're seeing on the dash is a number that the software is coming up with. Think about it: how can the bike carry on going for a little while even when this number reaches 0%, indicating that it is totally empty?
Cas :)
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Because it is programmed to show 0% at a certain voltage ;) , but the accuracy of that figure is beside the point. My concern is that at this rate the battery looses around 30% of its charge in a month parked in a heated garage.
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The SOC is based on the voltage (as shown in the Unofficial Manual). The only filtering done on it will be to take an average reading over time so it's not constantly jumping up and down as the voltage drops under load and then recovers. The reason the bike can still ride at 0% is because, as Sharagan says, that just correlates to a certain voltage. That doesn't mean there's absolutely no energy left in the battery, it's just the lower safe voltage limit. For there to be any voltage at all there must be usable energy left.
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Even if there are any claimed algorithms and filters in play to show an approximate or absolute number, it does not change anything about the fact that the SOC is decreasing more rapidly than it is normal for this type of battery.
Well, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying... all you're seeing on the dash is a number that the software is coming up with. Think about it: how can the bike carry on going for a little while even when this number reaches 0%, indicating that it is totally empty?
Cas :)
I once rode my 2018 S with PT down to "00" SOC and then it ran another six miles and got me home. I don't know how much further it would have gone before I was pushing. On my 2014 S with PT I did the same thing and that bike stopped dead when the display showed "0" SOC. By turning off the ignition and turning it back on again I was able to travel another 100 feet before the power shut off again. I did that four times before arriving home. Personally, I prefer the 2018's programming that allows a little bit of SOC cushion. :)
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Hm yes my point is the number on the dash is a calculation not an absolute reading. Just because the number on the dash drops by 5 does not mean you have lost 5% of the actual state of charge in the battery. I do believe there is probably more going on than a simple interpolation over a voltage LUT. For all we know it's hardcoded to reduce the number by 1% a day whatever voltage it reads. I speak from the experience of conking out on an Energica that claimed to have 60% charge after just 2 miles of riding: the voltage clearly goes up slightly if it's left standing for a while, making the system assume 60% charge when in fact the bike had done 108 miles just a couple of weeks prior and hadn't been charged since.
Cas :)
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The claim of 1% a day being hard coded is just an assumption. Your further observations of the Energica are probably not relevant as it is a completely different bike. I have experience with electric motorcycles from KTM and these do not have a drop in SOC even after 6 months of storage, so it is something completely different aswell. Before starting this thread I called Zero and asked if the drop is normal, I was told that a drop of 2-3% per month are normal and that I should contact the dealer for further analysis. If it would be hardcoded as you assume, they would tell me that I am fine and that I am observing a completely normally functioning bike. Furthermore if your claim of an of the SOC percentage being just a number was true, we would observe random numbers not a steady decrease, also the BMS would not be able to stop charging when full and also the mileage prediction of the bike would not be accurate. So far when riding the percentage of the SOC was in perfect correlation with the miles I did on that charge. Therefore I can not agree with you on your theories.
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I make no claims whatsoever. I am proposing theories which might fit, with corroborating evidence.
Cas :)
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Yeah, if 0% was really 0 then the battery couldn't be recharged.
But that the SoC is a calculation is irrelevant to observations made using the same calculation.
-Crissa
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I see far fetched theories with no evidence at all :)
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I write firmware for electronics and we do this sort of shit all the time... and I see plenty of evidence for it, which is what I outline in the theories. I mean, I am just as likely to be wrong, but so far I don't see any alternative theories that explain it.
Cas :)
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My 2020 Zero FXS SOC is at 54% right now. It's 55F degrees in my garage. I'll check again in a few days.
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Hi Valnar, thanks for your input, I am curious about your finding afterwards :)
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It's been 72 hours exactly and my SOC settled at 53%. I think it was at 54% for a while, so I'd call that less than 1% in 3 days. Similar temperatures each day.
Edit: I just reread this post.
Hi, I have also a FXS2020, I have witnessed the same about 1% discharging a day. But as a remark I have also seen that this discharging rate is slowing down below 60% of load to about 1% every 3 days?
Mine falls into that category, so I'll check again in a few days. I'd rather not bump it up to 90% again since my riding season is over though.
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It is an interesting observation, thanks for sharing. Mine discharges faster, but it is still at the dealer, so I will have the opportunity to make new observations once it is back. It will be probably a month or two, before I have it home.
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Feel free to use me or anyone else in this forum to show that excessive drain is not normal. I can send my logs, if it helps.
Good luck.
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thanks for the offer, I will come back to you, if somebody tries to tell me that it is normal :)
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Today it was still at 53%, three days later.
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Consider yourself lucky, that is my goal :)
Please check again in a week and let me know, thanks.
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The weather is getting warmer so I'm going to charge & go riding. It was still at 53%.
Edit:
Correction. I did not have time to ride yesterday. Today however, I turned it on and it was at 47%. I started riding and it dropped fairly fast to 41%, then seemed to drop normally after that. That was weird. So maybe it just depends on the SOC, your blood type, moon phase and President-elect. Who knows.
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Hi Valnar, so it seems that you have 6-10%of discharge in 10 days depending on the fact if the drop after you started riding was due to the weather and your usage or the bike just corrected the reading. Could it be that the bike in its off state is not really off and consumes a fair amount of energy? The manual says, that the bike goes to long term storage mode after 30 days of not turning it on. I`m starting to have the feeling that this is either a design flaw or a normal characteristic of the bike. It would be a bit of a disadvantage as we have to keep it above 30% to avoid damage to the battery, but my main concern is if I have a defective bike or not. Thanks again for your observations :)
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I have only owned this bike over one Winter, which was this past year. I don't recall it ever going down that fast, but it could be my memory.
I'll charge it up to 70% when the snow finally falls and keep an eye on it.
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My SRF is parked in a non heated but well insulated garage and does around -1% a day at max. Often less.
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Hi Hans, could you please check how much it loses over the course of 10 days?
My bike so far (still at the dealer) was charged to 100% for observation purposes roughly in the mid of October, I was there to check on it on Nov 10th and the battery had 60%, so from that I suspect that the discharge is faster with a higher SOC.
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For 5 days I lost 2% going from 66% SOC to 64%
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Just a small update from my side. I received an email from Zero to my inquiry, that the decrease in SOC of 1% per day is not normal. The dealer did some troubleshooting on the software side, charged it up and they monitor it. I will know more next week. I will get it back if everything checks out fine. Will report back, once I hear from them.
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I noticed the same thing on my FX, but I wonder if it was the voltage / soc settling in cold weather? I accidentally charged to 100% so I went for a ride in 39F weather to get the battery down to the 60s. I turned it off at 66% soc, came out a few days later and it was at 53%. In the past week its gone down to 52% and I'm keeping an eye on it. This is a '18 7.2FX with 10k miles.
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Hi Guys,
there was a software troubleshooting last week and a week of observation comparing it to one of the demo bikes (Zero S) at the dealer. The demo bike stayed at 100% and mine dropped to 93%. So the situation did not change and they will try to find the root cause. One of the options I was presented with is a battery swap. I will report back once I have some news.
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Hi Guys,
there was a software troubleshooting last week and a week of observation comparing it to one of the demo bikes (Zero S) at the dealer. The demo bike stayed at 100% and mine dropped to 93%. So the situation did not change and they will try to find the root cause. One of the options I was presented with is a battery swap. I will report back once I have some news.
Thanks, keep us posted.
I'm done riding for the season, so I charged my bike up to 71% about a month ago and today it was at 65%. That was just a quick turn on/off though without any riding. Last time I rode it adjusted even more, but can't with snow+salt on the ground.
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The old bikes don't go into storage mode if you flip them on and off...?
-Crissa
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Hi Guys,
sharagan... Are you in the EU? I saw this post on Facebook and it was very interesting. I'd check my own bike except that's freezing outside here in Ohio.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/3552888761446973/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/3552888761446973/)
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Hi Valnar,
thanks for sharing, this is interesting and yes, I am in the EU. This explains a lot and makes me happy, that there should be no problem with the battery after all. However, the fact that I contacted Zero directly 3 times already if by any chance the 1% a day discharge is known to them and they were even not aware of it (did not share any such info with me) still in November makes me rather angry. I was instructed to take the bike to the dealer. The bike is there since September. It seems that communication within Zero or Zero and the dealers is not a strong side and things seem to take a long time. I will share this DC-DC issue with my dealer. Will post an update afterwards!
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....how can a DC/DC converter behind an OBD2 Socket with nothing in it draw so much power? :-\
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When you think about it 1%/day is a lot of electrons going somewhere and generating heat in the process. Maybe it is a design feature to keep something warm? I don't think your average 18650 lithium battery loses that much of a charge/day
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It comes out to around 2.6W (63Wh over 24 hours) so not enough to provide significant heating. In terms of 18650s it's about the same as losing ten 2500mAh ones per day.
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I am getting my bike back now. Conclusion: the battery discharge is normal for European bikes produced 2020 and later due to the always on OBD2 port.
It turns off in long term storage mode and does not drain the battery. But from my understanding the storage mode kicks in after 30 days and according to the manual I should check my SOC level once a month, so without a manual switch this mode is not usable.
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I'm done riding for the season, so I charged my bike up to 71% about a month ago and today it was at 65%. That was just a quick turn on/off though without any riding.
'First time I touched my bike since this post -- It was at 54% today.
Assuming the discharge is linear (which it probably isn't), I might need to charge it just one more time before riding season.
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Hi Valnar,
I wonder what eats that roughly 10% per month in your case without the OBD2 port. I will try to disconnect the main fuse or the low power B+ fuse when the bike is at 40% and give it 2 weeks and check again.
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With regards to the information that the EU models have an always on OBD2 connector, which is powered even if the bike is turned off (backed up by the SOC drop of 1% per day) I assume that the DC DC Converter is always running. When searching on the internet I found the information, that this Sevcon converter has a life expectancy of 60000 hours, which translates to 6.8 years and also taking into consideration all the other upstream and downstream systems that are always on due to this and their life expectancy I would like to ask your opinion about a way to really turn off the bike for winter storage or if you think it is not necessary and complete overkill.
Thanks in advance for your insight.
PS. If I should create a new thread for this topic, please let me know :)
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I just bought a 2020 FX in the US and it has this the battery drain issue.
My previous Zero SR 2014 (with battery from 2016) didn’t have it so I could leave it at 50% in a cold storage unit with no power.
I just dropped the bike off to have the tires upgraded and I also asked them to contact Zero about the battery drain bug.
My hope is that they’ll figure out what fuse needs to be pulled when it’s left in storage.
I’ll report back with findings soon.
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When you get it back, can you check to see if it has the 2 different OBD ports as described in the other thread? https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10779.msg99997#msg99997
I found both of them, one is under the seat, the other is in front of the battery and sticks out of the side next to the side panel.
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I assume that the DC DC Converter is always running.
Hi! Fun to see my FB-post linked :)
There's allegedly an additional DC/DC converter ziptied to the MBB on the newer (European) models which powers the second OBD-port.
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Has anyone confirmed (or not) there is one on the USA models?
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Has anyone confirmed (or not) there is one on the USA models?
You could just lift the seat and see for yourself (just two screws)
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There is one for the usa models, at least my 2021 FX has one
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That's what I'm worried about. I don't quite have access to my FXS until the Spring.
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I have an observation to share regarding the discharge on my FXS 2020.
Janaury 22nd 52%
February 6th 42%
February 13th 42%
The battery discharged from 100% to 42% and at this point it seems to have stopped. The bike is stored at a constant 20 Celsius.
I will observe it further and report back.
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The safety cutoff for the obd power supply is supposed to turn it off between 40-50 percent to prevent batteries from dying.
It sounds like you have hit it. The test would be whether you have 12v power on your second obd port.
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that is great news, so I do not have to pull any fuses :) I'll check the voltage on the OBD port tomorrow. Which one is the 2nd EU specific OBD2 port, under the seat or on the side?
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On the 2021 FX. I believe the one under the seat is the secondary connector. But you could check both, if they both come up without 12V, that'd be it.
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I can confirm the 2nd OBD port is the one under the seat (2020 FX)
Riccardo
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The information I saw from zero was that it'll disable the second port at 7% to not damage the battery. Mine keeps draining below 30% but not sure how much further as I'll charge it. Pulling the main fuse will stop it all of course so that's one way of storing.
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maybe the last firmware update adjusted the cutoff percentage for the OBD2 port (just guessing)
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damn, it was just a SOC calculation glitch. Now the bike shows 35% SOC.
The OBD2 port under the seat is still live, it shows 13.9V.
The one on the side has no reading when off and when turned on only 0.6V.
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maybe the last firmware update adjusted the cutoff percentage for the OBD2 port (just guessing)
I was hoping that too but doesn't seem like it unfortunately :(
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damn, it was just a SOC calculation glitch. Now the bike shows 35% SOC.
The OBD2 port under the seat is still live, it shows 13.9V.
The one on the side has no reading when off and when turned on only 0.6V.
On my 2018 FXS the 12v pin does not even exist on the side OBD port. If that pin is in there, that is very odd that it would only have 0.6V.
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my bad, you are correct, there is no pin....don't know, how I got that reading :o