ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rayivers on July 18, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
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It's taken a while as I wanted to be absolutely sure this time, but my front brake is finally silent. I've done two extended pad/rotor break-in rides on the street and four 45 min. dirt/street rides, all without a sound. Brake operation is also much more consistent than before.
In a nutshell, the brake was a mess. The hub rotor flanges were angled every which way and two of the threaded holes were crooked, the rotor was warped from being tightened to them, the FastAce fork mounts held the caliper at a slight angle, and who knows what else. Rather than blueprint this rigid old-school design and hope for the best, I chose to add a little 'give' here and there to even out the misalignments, like most modern front brakes.
The plan was to thin / true the rotor to add flex & minimize pad chatter at the source, then reduce mechanical coupling between the rotor and hub to eliminate warpage & keep any remaining vibration out of the spokes and fork.
Here's the rotor (modified left, OEM right) - the swept area has been thinned .030" per side and trued L/R to within .0005", and bolt holes countersunk at 100°:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/F%20Brake%20Rotos%20OEM%20amp%20machined%20small.jpg)
Diagram for above:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/F%20Brake%20Rotor%20Diagram%20Photobucket.jpg)
The rotor has small copper shim washers (Grainger 5ZLU0) between it and the hub, and is held on with stainless M8x20 flathead screws (90° head angle) along with lockwashers / jam nuts on the spoke side of the flanges. These bolts were tightened to 1 (one) ft/lb, and the locknuts tightened. This setup has not loosened at all.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/F%20Brake%20Rotor%20on%20wheel%20close%20up.jpg)
It might be possible to use the FX rear rotor (same mounting circle, holes already counterbored) on the front with the flathead screws / copper washers / etc., but I haven't tried it and don't know if it would eliminate the noise.
The next challenge will be to get some acceptable braking power happening (neither of my Zeros can lock the front wheel on dirt, let alone pavement). The big-piston master cylinder should be replaced with something more correct for this small single-rotor system. Check out this thread on front master cylinder replacement (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4949.msg33743#msg33743).
Ray
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Great work Ray: I have the same squeal and have tried loads of things but not this.
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Thanks! One thing I forgot to mention is that you could test the rotor-isolation part of this fix easily, just by loosening your rotor bolts and then tightening them a bit more than finger tight. This should be fine for a short test ride, and if the squeal's gone, then you could decide what alternate method of rotor mounting you're comfortable with (my fix isn't the only way to do it). There's not a lot of clearance on the LH side of the rotor, and one of the spokes passes quite close to one of the hub flanges, so options are a little limited as far as rotor bolts / locking setups go (there's always Loc-Tite, of course).
Ray
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I know the Zero discs have a strange 4 bolt pattern, but a good thing to have would be a 260mm front disc and a different mounting bracket for the caliper to be re-positioned. My KTM and GG came stock with 260mm front discs, but I bought a 260mm EBC kit for my YZ. You wouldn't think it'd make much difference going from 240mm to 260mm, but it really does. I'm wondering how much it'd cost me to have a 4 bolt 260mm disc machined up. I'm thinking that a caliper mounting bracket already available for other brands should probably fit the Zero.
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I looked into putting a bigger disc on mine, but the caliper mount is cast into the LH fork leg so I figured it would be more trouble than it was worth - it looks like the '15 FX Showa fork is similar. The disc specs for the '14 FX are 240mm O.D., 105mm I.D., 4.90" / 125mm M8 4-bolt circle, 4.5mm thick.
I also looked around for a 240mm floating-rotor setup, but could only find a 220mm (Brake Tech BTD220R).
I really like the KTM 85 mounting method, which allows bigger rotors to be used just by changing caliper spacers.
My YZ's 250mm disc is incredible, I'm very happy with it.
Ray
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I looked into putting a bigger disc on mine, but the caliper mount is cast into the LH fork leg so I figured it would be more trouble than it was worth - it looks like the '15 FX Showa fork is similar.
Yeah, that's how it works; the adapter bracket bolts onto the original attachment points, and then provides new points for the caliper to mount to.
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This place seems to have a number of the adapters you mentioned, but i haven't contacted them about it:
http://www.moto-masterusa.com/photos/mx/rallye/supermoto-oversize-adapter-brackets (http://www.moto-masterusa.com/photos/mx/rallye/supermoto-oversize-adapter-brackets)
Perhaps they can supply one based on bolt-pattern and offset measurements, but it sure would be nice to have an OEM model that used the Zero caliper, or a Nissin part number, to give them as well.
Ray
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Yeah, if the mounting point measurements are the same for j.juan as they are for nissin, then I think the spare adapter I have for my YZ should fit the FX.
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Hi Ray, I meant to post ages ago re the mounting points. I see what you mean, the spacing between the two mounting holes is much closer than on my YZ. I still need to look into trying to fit a bigger rotor and caliper mount adapter, 'cause my front brake still howls, it's the noisiest part on the bike! I noticed a while ago, while doing some research, that some Suzuki rotors use a four bolt pattern, but that was as far as I got.
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Ben,
Did you ever try loosening your rotor bolts to finger-tight for testing? I think decoupling my rotor from the hub using the copper washers was what finally got rid of my brake noise for good, although the Honda pads and rotor machining helped too.
Ray
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Great job…I can tell you knew what you were doing ;)
If I may suggest something (although it is unlikely you will face any issues with M8 bolts) get them replaced for DIN/SAE CL 8.8 or 10.9 grade bolts (12.9 might be too much/rigid). They will rust, which is not nice, but the level of safety will be boom proof...
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Thanks very much - I think I may have just gotten lucky. :)
The screws on there now are supposedly DIN7991, which is a 10.9-equivalent spec. I thought they were just generic A2 stainless (8.8 at most) and have been waiting for them to loosen up and need tightening, but not yet. I think the copper may have compressed a bit, as when I tap the rotor now it sounds quite dead and no longer rings like the OEM rotor did. I can't move the rotor by hand at all, though.
I'm going to try this same machining/mounting scheme on my J Juan rear brake next. It's not noisy, but it's weak and inconsistent like the front was and hopefully I'll get a similar improvement.
Ray
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Ben,
Did you ever try loosening your rotor bolts to finger-tight for testing? I think decoupling my rotor from the hub using the copper washers was what finally got rid of my brake noise for good, although the Honda pads and rotor machining helped too.
Ray
I tried them a bit loose, but not as loose as finger tight, I didn't really dedicate time to test properly. I'll give the copper washer trick a go. I was thinking, last night, and although it sounds ridiculous and will add weight, about deadening the spokes by running a strip of thin rubber through them so that the wheel doesn't resonate, just to see if that works. Pro Desert racers here cable-tie their spokes in pairs so that if one breaks, it at least stays in place, so I was wondering if that would be enough to deaden the sound too.
I think I'll give up on trying to fit a bigger disc, I still haven't found anything that'll fit. Getting a custom disc machined up is fairly common, but the tricky part would be to get an adapter machined up(if only I was a machinist, I'd make one!). Maybe a simple stepped, steel plate machined up could be used as an extender. Even a simple steel plate bolted to the outside of the fork attachment points, then bolts with spacers to hold the caliper would work, but might be slightly flimsy and dangerous, and obviously not ideal.
Hopefully ZERO will add a bigger disc with a caliper adapter to the FX in the future, so then I can just buy one!
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Thanks very much - I think I may have just gotten lucky. :)
The screws on there now are supposedly DIN7991, which is a 10.9-equivalent spec. I thought they were just generic A2 stainless (8.8 at most) and have been waiting for them to loosen up and need tightening, but not yet. I think the copper may have compressed a bit, as when I tap the rotor now it sounds quite dead and no longer rings like the OEM rotor did. I can't move the rotor by hand at all, though.
Mmm…DIN 79991 stainless flat head countersunk are not designed/intend for hard tightening applications…I would definitely replace them…If you had more than 4 bolts, you could be fine, but with 4, if I were you I would not take any risk...
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I've never tried the spoke thing, but I've heard of it before and it sounds like a good idea. When my front spoke broke, it very nearly snagged on the caliper.
A master cylinder from an '08 YZ250F dropped right in and made a huge difference - now it's a 2-finger brake. I think the extra pressure helped with the squealing too. It looks like Zero still uses the same MC as my '14 OEM unit with the ABS setup, so it should work with your bike too, I think.
Ray
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My front brake actually seems to work as well as any 240mm setup would, and can lock up on dirt with two fingers, but I prefer a 260-270mm setup. I was thinking that a bigger disc might also not suffer from the moaning, but maybe it still might.
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I added the diagram for the rotor machining. The front brake is still working great, no noise and great power. I machined the rear rotor too; like the front, it improved consistency but not power. I'll be working up a rear master-cylinder mounting plate to hold it at a different angle, allowing a new clevis-pin hole to be drilled in the brake pedal closer to the pivot for more mechanical advantage on the piston (I'll post a new thread once it's completed).
Suggestion to Zero; go with standard high-pressure brake designs for 2018 (or earlier if possible).
Ray
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My brakes howled at the dealership when I first picked up the bike. They said to wait 200 miles for them to break in. Why did you have to deal with this yourself? Isnt this something the dealer/Zero should fix?
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I am reading this thread with some interest, because at about 700 miles on the odometer so far on my '15 SR, both the rear and front brakes squeal quite loud when braking gently.
I found that if I do a series of hard stops downhill, that seems to set the brakes and then they are quiet for the next few stops. But the squealing returns after a few gentle stops. I think the pad material is not great, because by now the pats should have set to the rotors.
As for braking power - the bike has more than enough for street riding. The ABS will kick-in during a hard stop and I don't think I am applying excessive amounts of pressure with my foot or hand to do so, so no problems with that. Just the noise, mainly from the rear for me.
I will complain about it to my dealer when I take the bike for an unrelated repair soon, but what can they do? The factory pads I think are not good and I doubt they can do much about it, short of putting aftermarket pads, which might not be covered by warranty and I can do it myself... What they should to is log the problem with Zero, so that issue is addressed down the road, hopefully retroactively so owners of current bikes can benefit from it too.
My brakes howled at the dealership when I first picked up the bike. They said to wait 200 miles for them to break in. Why did you have to deal with this yourself? Isnt this something the dealer/Zero should fix?
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My response is, we bought premium bikes. The brakes shouldn't howl/squeal. Zero or the dealer should fix it. Im willing to wait another 100 miles before going back to the dealer. At least I'm only a 25 min drive. I feel bad hearing of people who have to drive hours!
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I also have that terrible squealing nose on my 2016 SR at 3000 miles. I am very disappointed that ZERO has not addressed this long ago. When I'm driving my Zero down the road I'm so proud of my purchase until I have to stop and let everybody next to me know that my motorcycle has braking problems and it also makes me feel like I'm drive a cheap bike. I love my Zero but as much as I paid for it I'm very disappointed that I have to hear this every time when I have to come to a stop.
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For context, this was true on the 2013 models as well. My 2016 DSR has not squealed at all getting close to 3k miles now.
The issue is definitely a combination of the kind of parts they can afford to source to assemble the brake package; there's definitely a design flaw allowing for vibration modes. Search for "brake pads" on the forum and you'll find alternates for most model-years. I know Zero won't bat an eye if you swap pads as long as those pads are the right fit.
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Why wouldn't our warranty cover this? Why do we have to just accept an obvious problem?
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Why wouldn't our warranty cover this? Why do we have to just accept an obvious problem?
Simple: It doesn't exactly affect motorcycle performance or function. The brakes work just as well.
Our comments on the forum do not fall on deaf ears, and the brake situation has been mentioned a lot. I met a mechanical engineer there and we shared a desire for dual front disk brakes but he alluded to the basic constraint of component cost at scale as limiting what they can do year over year.
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For context, this was true on the 2013 models as well. My 2016 DSR has not squealed at all getting close to 3k miles now.
My 2016 SR front brakes speak like they're made of mice. Very annoying. Waiting until 500 mile service / inspection to mention it.
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The front Nissan brake of my 2014 S has never squeaked and neither has the J.Juan rear brake. :)
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If you can find vibration dampers for the brake pads your bike uses, they should at least reduce the squeal and might even eliminate it.
The pads below fit my '14 FX J Juan rear brake - notice the snap-on metal covers:
(http://makinaparts.com/650-1092-thickbox/43105kz1415-honda-rear-brake-pads-cr-xr-en.jpg)
Each of these holds a Teflon vibration-damper insert (not seen in the photo) against the rear of the pad plate. This kind of damper is used on auto brakes and apparently does work, although this brake didn't squeal so I didn't need them.
If you can find equivalent Big 4 OEM part numbers for the pads on your Zero, you may get lucky with Google Images to see if the replacement pads come with these dampers, then get the pad kit just for the dampers (and if you order them from your local ICE dealer and they don't come with dampers, they can be instantly returned unopened - I've done this many times with all sorts of stuff). Maybe the pads will even work well. :) I've been unable to find motorcycle-size damper kits separately, but I haven't really looked that hard.
Ray
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Hello to the Forum guys
I had the squealing noise on the rear brake and I made change the original pads with SBS pads even I had to pay extra to the Dealer but it suppressed the noise and I am happy, now I can enjoy a silents brakes even there is a little clonk when I use it but that's a lot better now.
I can confirm that the nasty squeaky sound came from the original braking pads that were probably to hard or maybe just low quality.
Just like the Dealer's Service Customer if now I can enjoy my Zero is because I found a Professional Service that corrects all the nasty repair of the Dealer's Services.
I would like to help others Zeroers to avoid all the mistakes I first did it but the Forum help me to understand better and I would like to give a little contribution.
From Ginoverg.
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Thank you! Which part number for the SBS pads?
Hello to the Forum guys
I had the squealing noise on the rear brake and I made change the original pads with SBS pads even I had to pay off the warranty of the Dealer but it suppressed the noise and I am happy, now I can enjoy a silents brakes even there is a little clonk when I use it but that's a lot better now.
I can confirm that the nasty squeaky sound came from the original braking pads that were probably to hard or maybe just low quality.
Just like the Dealer's Service Customer if now I can enjoy my Zero is because I found a Professional Service that corrects all the nasty repair of the Dealer's Services.
I would like to help others Zeroers to avoid all the mistakes I first did it but the Forum help me to understand better and I would like to give a little contribution.
From Ginoverg.
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Mister Kocho,
Hello.
I don't have the pads references available because I am travelling at the moment. I will post photos of the packaging as soon as I came back home but I think you can look for any quality pads that are compatible with the Juan rear caliper.
Please keep me informed.
Kind regards,
Gino Verg
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It's possible they are SBS 675 pads, perhaps these 675RQ 'Carbon Tech' ones (I got 604RQ's from Zero to fit my bike):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/675RQ-SBS-Carbon-Tech-Racing-Rear-Brake-Pads-Stock-01621675-/131675362043?hash=item1ea87692fb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/675RQ-SBS-Carbon-Tech-Racing-Rear-Brake-Pads-Stock-01621675-/131675362043?hash=item1ea87692fb)
Ray
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I'm going to try a few things to stop the squeal, it's driving me nuts!
I'm going to take the pads off and sand with 1000 grit paper and also apply brake quiet grease to the rear of the pads.
Hopefully this will stop the squealing.
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I'm going to try a few things to stop the squeal, it's driving me nuts!
Please share your results!
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I notice on my '15 SR the front pads have a perforated metal plate on the caliper side, which probably controls the squealing. The rear pads do not have that and are much noisier on mine. Do you guys who say your brakes are quiet have metal plates? Also, do you tend to stop aggressively? As I said, a few hard stops cure the squeal for me, but it returns after a few gentle stops....
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no simple fix. The sanding and brake quiet goop didn't fix it. I'm going to take it to the dealer, I'll be angry if they don't fix it. I'll probably put the bike on a trailer and take a little vacation down to Santa Cruz...
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Just dropped the bike off at the dealer. Without even listening to the howling, they were setting me up for not doing anything about it. I'll be pissed if this doesnt get fixed. No dealership would accept that in a demo bike, why should I have to tolerate it?
To the person who said it doesn't affect performance or function, what if the paint started peeling off after a year? That doesnt affect function, and I would expect a warranty would cover that. You can't exactly call the bike Stealthfighter if it howls at stops so loud people look over to see what's making that sound.
It makes me hesitant to use the brakes in the normal way, I'd say thats affecting performance.
I'll report back...
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My front squeal encourages me to use the back more, so maybe that's a good thing.
Manufacturers seem to get away with saying brake squeal is just a fact of life. My SO's rather expensive car squealed for years and the dealer tried to fix it once, and then just shrugged and say "eh, what can you do?"
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I'll make a recording of it. Squeal isnt the right word, its a howl. I can actually feel the vibration of it in the handlebars. Sounds like a tractor trailer
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I said it doesn't affect performance or function, and I know exactly what symptom you're talking about. I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying, I'm just explaining that you don't have literal leverage to force them do something on warrantee.
I don't know why a 15+ bike would do that, when the brakes are more robust. Try the solutions mentioned above; for me, the problem fully went away upgrading from 13 to 16, and even the 13 I managed to keep it under control under most conditions. It is a frustration and the design should be fixed, but the frustration is probably magnified by having a silent bike with no other maintenance issues.
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Talked to the dealer, Zero told them to add brake goop to the pads.
I had cleaned it off before taking it to the dealer, not wanting them to say "why did you add that crap"?
I doubt it will fix it. Zero apparently said they don't know why some bikes do it, and others don't.
The only leverage I have is a bunch of complaining. I hate when people ask me how I like the bike, and I say "It's great! But the brakes howl like a tractor trailer" They usually respond with, "I've never had a bike do that, it's under warranty, right?"
Every time I stop, I feel like I'm riding a piece of shit and I wish I still had my XR400. Then I accelerate, and I think Holy F%$#.
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It does affect performance. Zero bills the bike as being silent and quiet. Thats the biggest reason I bought it. If it can't be quiet, i would have spent thousands less on an ICE bike.
None of the videos and promo that zero produced have the brakes howling.
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I have the same problem with people that ask me how I like the bike and all I can think of is how loud and discussing my brakes sound almost every time I stop. its something that I would not tell them at first but now I let them know about how loud the brakes are and they are so suppressed and said they have never heard of anything like that on a new bike and they always say, its going to be cover under warrantee right? Mine had the high dollar brake goop applied with no luck at all. when I bought the motorcycle I always figured that it would turn heads for how quite it is but they look at me when I'm coming next to them at a stop light sounding like a semi truck that's coming to a stop with bad brakes. I just don't get it. I love my motorcycle but its hard not to get mad when it sounds so cheap. I have the 2016 SR
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Time for a poll to work out which models are squealing? Might help Zero diagnose it. And fix it.
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No squealing at all from my 2014 S, built near the end of December, 2013. It sounds to me like Zero's chosen brake pads and the disc brake steel are not getting along very well. I would say that either one or the other needs to be changed to stop the brakes squealing. Since changing the brake pads is a lot easier and cheaper than replacing a disc, that would seem the way to go, while Zero is coming up with a permanent solution. Perhaps trying a softer brake pad material (one that is not sintered metal), might be worth a try? ???
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NEWS FLASH: I just eliminated the front brake squeal on my street FX, with only a pad change. I used Brembo 07KA1705 carbon-ceramic pads I got from Mad4Brakes.com in Italy, which feel more powerful and come on more quickly (with less lever pressure) than the stock TT2508HH pads. They also broke in easily, in maybe 10-15 light applications. There's a possibility the squeal will return, but none of the other pads I tried got rid of it completely, even temporarily.
Ray
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I can confirm that these pads work on my SR too. Just received and installed the same carbon-ceramic front pads and drove for a couple of miles. You can look-up the various other models available at Brembo's web site - they list fitment for Zeros. These are the quietest yet and no squeal. Got them from the same place in Italy, delivered via FedEx to the US pretty quickly - less than 10 days from order to delivery. About $50 all said and done.
While at it, I also cleaned and lubricated the front caliper pins (I used synthetic caliper grease that seems to work great in my cars). I can tell you the caliper was not well lubricated from the factory and felt a bit sticky. After the lube, now it seems to be smooth and there is no pad dragging. I highly recommend you check your calipers too - mine feels much better after the lube.
NEWS FLASH: I just eliminated the front brake squeal on my street FX, with only a pad change. I used Brembo 07KA1705 carbon-ceramic pads I got from Mad4Brakes.com in Italy, which feel more powerful and come on more quickly (with less lever pressure) than the stock TT2508HH pads. They also broke in easily, in maybe 10-15 light applications. There's a possibility the squeal will return, but none of the other pads I tried got rid of it completely, even temporarily.
Ray
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I'm glad those pads worked well for you too. I've got another Mad4Brakes order en route - I figured if the carbon/ceramic pads worked so well, I'd try out a few other Brembos too.
Yes, the caliper pins are critical, especially on Zeros. I've been lucky with my Nissin fronts - both came well greased, and still move freely. Not my J Juan rear calipers, though; one 25mm is OK, but the other 25mm - and the new 30mm I installed recently - both had sticking & galling pins. I figured the clear grease in the new 30mm must be OK - hey, it's brand new! - so I left it in, but it started scraping & seizing up after 2 days of light use. It's not a huge deal to pull the wheel off and re-grease it, but I feel like such a fool to have trusted J Juan not to use crap grease despite knowing full well what a half-assed outfit they are.
Ray
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One of the first things I did to my FX was replace the front pads with EBC Carbon X (TT in Europe). From howling embarrassment to stealth fighter.
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