ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Harlan on November 30, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
-
Hello everybody. I just wanted to share some dyno data I took yesterday to give you some real numbers on the performance improvements of our controller upgrade.
Two bikes were tested on the dyno: a completely stock Zero S ZF9 (for a baseline) and a Zero S ZF9 with our controller upgrade installed. Both bikes were more or less the same state of charge, (nearly fully charged) and data was taken under the same conditions within a few minutes of each other.
As you can see, hp is boosted about 20% from about 30hp to over 36hp. Torque increases about 34% from 48 ft-lbs to nearly 65 ft-lbs.
The torque is really what makes the difference, improving acceleration drastically. I'll post more pics and performance metrics soon.
-
Huge upgrade. If that's not as much torque as the 2013 bikes, it's very close.
I wish Zero had sent down the TTX Zeros to the world championship, would have been neat to see them vs offthegrid's size 6 bike.
Now that the controller is removed as a limiting factor.. what can we do about cooling the motor? : )
-
I wouldn't worry too much, 600A isn't that much for that motor. For prolonged use at high speed a simple duct to blow air across would suffice from what I have seen on other bikes.
-
I wouldn't worry too much, 600A isn't that much for that motor. For prolonged use at high speed a simple duct to blow air across would suffice from what I have seen on other bikes.
I'm not so sure. There have been reports of thermal cutouts/limiting at high speeds (~75 mph or so) with the stock controller. The motor is probably robust enough, but its sitting in an air pocket behind the battery box probably doesn't help much. Then there are the low-speed, high-torque situations like corner exits in racing. I think the duct at the least would be useful, and maybe additional forced air for racing.
-
The thermal cutouts seem to be due to the (stock size 4) controller reaching its thermal limit. The motor has its own thermal limit which is normally not reached with the size 4 controller.
-
The thermal cutouts seem to be due to the (stock size 4) controller reaching its thermal limit. The motor has its own thermal limit which is normally not reached with the size 4 controller.
yeah, Zero seems to size their controllers tightly. I used to get thermal cut outs on my controller in quick accell situations on my 2011.
Wondering what the range ends up being with the size 6 controller....
-
The thermal cutouts seem to be due to the (stock size 4) controller reaching its thermal limit. The motor has its own thermal limit which is normally not reached with the size 4 controller.
yeah, Zero seems to size their controllers tightly. I used to get thermal cut outs on my controller in quick accell situations on my 2011.
Wondering what the range ends up being with the size 6 controller....
The same as the Size 4 if you ride at the same speed, thats the beauty of electric. Tuning doesn't mean you have to reduce your range if you dont want to. I doubt it would actually decrease range by the 30% increase in current because you wouldn't be using all of that increase in available power all of the time.
-
There are motor thermal "cutouts" and controller thermal "cutouts". "Cutouts" is probably not the best descriptor as the bike keeps running, just with reduced power. Unless you are on the freeway at top speed, they can be hard to notice. Controller thermal "cutouts" are much less an issue with the size6, in fact Terry is running his with no heatsink at all (his choice, not mine) and he has reported few thermal issues, probably mostly motor related.
When ridden side by side with the stock bike, you shouldn't lose range at all. Hammering the throttle the way us motorcyclists typically ride, there may be a slight decrease in range but I don't think it will be significant until you're hitting top speed on the freeway.
If you're following Terry's trip riding across the country, you may have seen a post early on about getting 111 miles on a single charge. It may be possible that the size6 (and I think he's got the bike regeared with a 25 tooth front sprocket) has given the bike a sweet spot in range at the speeds he is traveling. I'll have to get more details from him when he gets to LA.
-
One thing to remember is that the higher the current rating of the controller the more efficient it will be at lower currents. In order to get a higher rating they either have to put more MosFets in parallel or use spec lower "R-on" MosFets as the drivers. Either way there is less voltage drop in any controller rated at a higher current. This means that for normal riding there is lower loss in the controller, which equals longer distance on a charge.
BTW - Had a great 9 1/4 mile desert hike today. Wonder why my legs are more sore than they were yesterday riding my 2012 DS? ;)
Trikester
-
A couple of questions I want to address:
The kit comes with the controller, heatsink, new rear tail subframe, and motor leads. I will post pics shortly, just waiting on some parts to get back from anodizing and powdercoating. In my opinion, and I think anyone would agree, the new heatsink is more attractive than the stock one, albeit a bit larger. Other than the larger heatsink, the upgrade is hardly noticeable.
To install, the existing rear controller lugs must be removed from the frame to make room for the larger controller. The new rear subframe does double duty supporting the existing tail section and the heatsink.
The controller uses the latest firmware and I have kept the performance settings mostly stock, e.g. current in sport mode is 100%, eco mode is 70%, but I can custom tailor some of the settings to the customer at no additional cost. The regenerative braking is proportionally increased with the controller size so it is stronger in both sport and eco mode. Top speed increases slightly.
I have not changed any voltage safety cutoffs. Although in our test bikes, we have not altered the temp settings (with no noticeable performance decrease over the last few months), I plan on lowering the motor temperature cutoff for customer bikes as the motor will heat up faster with the higher current and may need a little extra time to respond to increased temperature and ensure the motor will continue to perform long term.
To properly configure the size6 controller, I will need the customer to send me their existing controller so that I can calibrate the encoder properly.
-
Ballpark pricing please.
-
A couple of questions I want to address:
The kit comes with the controller, heatsink, new rear tail subframe, and motor leads. I will post pics shortly, just waiting on some parts to get back from anodizing and powdercoating. In my opinion, and I think anyone would agree, the new heatsink is more attractive than the stock one, albeit a bit larger. Other than the larger heatsink, the upgrade is hardly noticeable.
To install, the existing rear controller lugs must be removed from the frame to make room for the larger controller. The new rear subframe does double duty supporting the existing tail section and the heatsink.
The controller uses the latest firmware and I have kept the performance settings mostly stock, e.g. current in sport mode is 100%, eco mode is 70%, but I can custom tailor some of the settings to the customer at no additional cost. The regenerative braking is proportionally increased with the controller size so it is stronger in both sport and eco mode. Top speed increases slightly.
I have not changed any voltage safety cutoffs. Although in our test bikes, we have not altered the temp settings (with no noticeable performance decrease over the last few months), I plan on lowering the motor temperature cutoff for customer bikes as the motor will heat up faster with the higher current and may need a little extra time to respond to increased temperature and ensure the motor will continue to perform long term.
To properly configure the size6 controller, I will need the customer to send me their existing controller so that I can calibrate the encoder properly.
"Torque increases about 34% from 48 ft-lbs to nearly 65 ft-lbs."
That certainly explains the crazy acceleration I experienced when I rode it in LA 2 weeks ago vs my stock ZF9.
The heat sink does look better. In fact, the whole treatment including the tail tidy mod makes the bike look and feel much more like a real motorcycle.
I could swear the bike is lower to the ground and handles better than my stock ZF9. No mods to the suspension?
Nice meeting you, by the way, and thanks for the detailed description of the mods.
-
Ballpark pricing please.
Price for the full kit is $2500. Trading in your old controller will bring the price down to $2000.
-
"Torque increases about 34% from 48 ft-lbs to nearly 65 ft-lbs."
That certainly explains the crazy acceleration I experienced when I rode it in LA 2 weeks ago vs my stock ZF9.
The heat sink does look better. In fact, the whole treatment including the tail tidy mod makes the bike look and feel much more like a real motorcycle.
I could swear the bike is lower to the ground and handles better than my stock ZF9. No mods to the suspension?
Nice meeting you, by the way, and thanks for the detailed description of the mods.
It was great meeting you too! Thanks for stopping by!
The bike you rode didn't have our final CNCed heatsink. It is much nicer. I will post pictures once it is back from getting anodized black.
The tail chop is IMHO compulsory, especially in LA where we hardly need the protection the rear fender provides.
We haven't made any modifications to the suspension, just some tuning. I think the modification enhances the overall quality of the riding experience. I especially appreciate the added stopping power of the increased regenerative braking.
-
Anyone thinking of a size 6 upgrade, do it! I have almost 5000 miles on the new controller now and have loved every minute of it! You will only have less range if you choose to ride real hard and use it, knowing there is a recharging spot close by. It makes the bike so fun to ride! Even on my trip carrying hundreds of pounds of gear (check some pictures, I seriously have 400 pounds of stuff), it makes pulling out in traffic, passing and weaving through traffic so easy your confidence is boosted as you know the bike has the power to get you out of any sticky situation. The bike with 400 pounds of gear feels so nimble with so much torque.
(See pics of the size 6 on the bike, and all the luggage and follow the trip here: http://www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid (http://www.facebook.com/lifeoffthegrid))
As I said, if you ever wished your zero had a little more power, this is the simpliest upgrade. I rode home with the size 4 in the bike to see the package from Hollywood Electrics at my door, and less than an hour later, I rode it to the beer store with the size 6 installed and almost scared myself it was so fast. (Although the next day I did take it back out and remove 1/2 of a bolt hole on each side of the frame and then put it back it for a nice snug fit like the bike was designed for the size 6 and not the size 4 to begin with.
Still on track to hit Los Angeles by Friday if all goes to plan. Need to average about 500 miles a day on the Zero for the next 4 days like I did the first day of the trip. Stopped to see 2 good friends in Louisania I hadn't seen in 2 years and it stalled the trip a little, but back on the road this morning. Should hit Texas later today! When charge stations are close by ~50 miles or less, with the size 6 controller, the trip goes quick. Unplug, Zip through traffic fast in random towns with the torque feel of a 600cc sportbike, bulk charge only for 45 min, repeat.
As your doctor, I'm prescribing 660 amps to all of you. Take at least twice a day, and what ever ailment you may have, you will at least have a huge smile on your face you can't control when you twist the throttle. And as modern medicine believes, the more you smile and happier you are, the better the body can heal itself. So get the size 6! Doctors orders! :)
-
Would it be possible to get the encoder settings from a dealer laptop and send them to you to avoid sending the oem controller?
The subframe bit sounds very large. Is it a freight item or could you send it by air?
-
Wow, this really hurts! Continue to try to sell my 2012 9DS so I can buy the 2013 DS (with no trade in support at all from Zero) or upgrade the controller in my current bike and void the warranty. Ouch.
-
Or buy a 2013 and upgrade to size 6!
-
Or buy a 2013 and upgrade to size 6!
I think we have already established that the '13 pack can't deliver sufficient current for the size 6 to work at full potential.
-
Zero seems to rate the 2013 batteries for 8C discharge. (MX ZF 2.8 = 2.5 kWh @ 20 kW, MX ZF 5.7 = 5.0 kWh @ 40 kW)
ZF8.5 and ZF11.4 should be able to do something well north of 40 kW.
Anyhow, the biggest benefit will be at low speeds where the motor current is very high but the battery current is very low.
-
11400W/104V = near enough 110A. 8C would be 880A. 660/0.707 is 933A.
That is theoretical and controllers don't usually draw that much battery current so you may get away with it but its marginal. I suppose 8C is recommended by manufacturer and you could pull a bit more. Got to be worth a try eh.
-
11400W/104V = near enough 110A. 8C would be 880A. 660/0.707 is 933A.
That is theoretical and controllers don't usually draw that much battery current so you may get away with it but its marginal. I suppose 8C is recommended by manufacturer and you could pull a bit more. Got to be worth a try eh.
That amount of current would only be needed after you hit base speed on the motor. Also anything near 100kw on a motorcycle is going to be FAST.
-
I'm convinced (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2477.msg10754#msg10754) that ZF11.4 is 100 Ah.
-
My warranty expires in Feb 2014, just put it in my calendar to get a size 6 controller!
-
Hello everybody. I just wanted to share some dyno data I took yesterday to give you some real numbers on the performance improvements of our controller upgrade.
Two bikes were tested on the dyno: a completely stock Zero S ZF9 (for a baseline) and a Zero S ZF9 with our controller upgrade installed. Both bikes were more or less the same state of charge, (nearly fully charged) and data was taken under the same conditions within a few minutes of each other.
As you can see, hp is boosted about 20% from about 30hp to over 36hp. Torque increases about 34% from 48 ft-lbs to nearly 65 ft-lbs.
The torque is really what makes the difference, improving acceleration drastically. I'll post more pics and performance metrics soon.
I was wondering whether a ZF6 would have enough available current to justify the size 6 mod. Is there any data to show similar torque/hp improvement with the controller upgrade on a ZF6 bike???
-
If the bike puts 36-37 hp (28 kW) to the rear wheel, it probably pulls 32-35 kW from the battery pack at peak.
The ZF6 pack is 80Ah, 65V nominal. EIG cells are rated for 5C continuous (400A), 10C peak (800A). 35 kW would probably drop down to 60V, or about 580A .. so the ZF6 pack should be able to hit the same peak power numbers as a ZF9 bike with the size 6 controller. Sustained top speed might be a little than the ZF9 bike, but both bikes are probably limited more by motor heat soaking than anything else.
However, a really neat thing about the motor controllers is they can put out 660A at low RPMs = low motor voltage when the battery pack draw is small .. the ZF6 at full throttle probably doesn't start to draw more than 5C until 40-50 mph, so the low speed torque should be just as good as the ZF9 bike.. and the ZF6 is significantly lighter.
-
Electric Cowboy is running a size 6 controller on his ZF6 race bike with good results.
-
Price for the full kit is $2500. Trading in your old controller will bring the price down to $2000.
What is included in the full kit?
-
What is included in the full kit?
The full kit includes the new controller, heatsink, subframe and motor leads. Here are a couple pics of it installed in a bike.
-
Hi harlan,
Awesome job looks perfect. Tempting to order; would you send it abroad?
I play the squeaky wheel and ask more questions. ::)
Terry wrote: ...Although the next day I did take it back out and remove 1/2 of a bolt hole on each side of the frame and then put it back it for a nice snug fit like the bike was designed for …
Do we need to do this too with your Kit?
The plastic cover at the bottom has to be adjusted by ourselves to fit?
Is the subframe a substitude for the fragile construction from the heatsink to the plastic cover and light?
Personally I like the look of your tail chop, but I will run in trouble with TÃœV and Police and I have a sideback frame which is fixed to the rear fender. ( see pics )
Is it possible to install the subframe with the original fender so my frame will still fit?
-
Hi harlan,
Awesome job looks perfect. Tempting to order; would you send it abroad?
Thanks! Yes, no problem.
I play the squeaky wheel and ask more questions. ::)
Terry wrote: ...Although the next day I did take it back out and remove 1/2 of a bolt hole on each side of the frame and then put it back it for a nice snug fit like the bike was designed for …
Do we need to do this too with your Kit?
Yes, you do need to remove the rear mounting holes for the controller to fit in the original position.
The plastic cover at the bottom has to be adjusted by ourselves to fit?
Yes, you will also need to cut the plastic cover to make room for the larger heatsink.
Is the subframe a substitude for the fragile construction from the heatsink to the plastic cover and light?
Personally I like the look of your tail chop, but I will run in trouble with TÃœV and Police and I have a sideback frame which is fixed to the rear fender. ( see pics )
Is it possible to install the subframe with the original fender so my frame will still fit?
I've attached a pic of the old and new subframes side by side. As you can tell, the new subframe has an additional piece that is used to support the rear of the heatsink. The new subframe is made of steel vs. the original alloy and has an additional cross member so it is a bit stronger. I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to use the original fender although we have removed it in all the bikes the size6 is fitted.
-
Will the topspeed change in any way? I guess not - right?
Will the sustained speed (before running into temp warning) stay the same at ~112km/h or increase/decrease for some reason?
-
Both top speed and sustained top speed should increase. The first thermal limitation on the stock 2012 bikes is the motor controller; with the Size 6 controller the next thermal limitation becomes the motor.
-
I would really love to see a comparison chart of 0-30 and 0-60 times (with same rider weight) for
- stock 2012 S ZF9
- stock 2012 S ZF6
- stock 2012 S ZF9 - sevcon 6
- stock 2013 S ZF8
- stock 2013 S ZF11
- stock 2013 S ZF11 - sevcon 6 (hollywood indigo package)
- all other 2013 models FX, etc ...
is something like this out somewhere?
-
I upgraded my 2012 Zero S ZF9 to a Size 6 contoller and love it! I didn't measure 0-60 times yet, but with the new controller, the bike feels twice as powerful. For example, my Eco mode is currently slightly stronger than my Sport mode used to be (with the size 4 controller). Hope this helps.
-
Damn it's looking good !!
You say ECO with size 6 is twice more powerefull than SPORT mode with size 4 !! :o
If i remember correctly size 6 is 200A more ( 33% more) current right?
Doc
-
Size 4 = 420A
Size 6 = 660A
ECO mode ~ 70%
660A * 0.7 ~ 460A
So ECO with 70% is a bit more power than a normal size 4 Sport mode ;)
You say ECO with size 6 is twice more powerefull than SPORT mode with size 4 !!
I believe you got it wrong I understand: SPORT mode with size 6 feels twice more powerful than SPORT mode with size 4 !!
-
Ben, Can you comment on range with the controller upgrade? Obviously, dumping more power on acceleration will decrease range if you use that power.
Also, is the 2012 motor able to take the heat from this much more current? Is it possible to overheat the motor causing shutdown or permanent damage?
-
You say ECO with size 6 is twice more powerefull than SPORT mode with size 4 !!
Yes, and it seems the calculations agree with that analysis! I didn't mention Sport mode with a size 6, but it's pretty awesome!
Ben, Can you comment on range with the controller upgrade? Obviously, dumping more power on acceleration will decrease range if you use that power.
Also, is the 2012 motor able to take the heat from this much more current? Is it possible to overheat the motor causing shutdown or permanent damage?
My range hasn't been affected much. On the size 4 I made 2 trips over 100 miles (106 & 114.1mi). Over the past 2 days I made 2 trips of 80 miles, with a predicted range just over 100mi on each. You are still fully in control of how much juice you use while riding, you just now have the option to use more.
-
On the 2013 bikes a size 6 would be even more fun!
-
1 important question I would looove to have clarified:
How does a SevCon 6 2012 ZF9-S compare to a stock 2013 S-Model?
-
1 important question I would looove to have clarified:
How does a SevCon 6 2012 ZF9-S compare to a stock 2013 S-Model?
I asked Terry this on Facebook after he went for a ride alongside one. He said the 2013 was alot faster in every speed range.
-
I would guess the size 6 2012 S is around 7s 0-60 and the size 4 2013 S is around 5.5s
-
1 important question I would looove to have clarified:
How does a SevCon 6 2012 ZF9-S compare to a stock 2013 S-Model?
Good timing! I just met up with some Zero guys in NYC and they let me ride a 2013 FX and 2013 DS! First of all, the FX is ridiculous! I did wheelies all the way down 9th avenue as we headed to the Ear Inn for bike night. However, to compare the 2012 Zero S w/ size 6 controller to the 2013 Zero DS w/ a stock controller, here are a couple of observations.
The 2013 bikes have a little more mass, so some of the added power goes to moving that mass. They are definitely a bit faster, but I didn't feel put out getting back on my 2012 S. In fact, I felt vindicated that I made the right decision sticking with the smaller bike with a big controller. The 2012 S is more nimble since it has less mass and with the boost in power it's really fun!
You'll probably be happy with either decision. If you like the size/weight of the 2012, then upgrading is a good choice. If you want a better overall quality machine go with a 2013.
-
I agree with Ben here.
For those that are having any issues with cutouts however, you should be thinking one of 2 things for sure. Do I upgrade to the size 6 controller? Or do I trade in on a 2013? Just be a motorcycle enthusiast and do something different this month to your ride than it is now.
And making it faster will make you smile more and live a happier life and therefor longer. Take your long term health into consideration and get a size 6 upgrade on your 2012! Or get a 2013! Or a 2013 with plans for a size 6! <--- warning!, being that happy could cause unknown results and or pain in your cheeks from too much smiling under your helmet, and/or outliving your retirement and social security. Proceed with caution.
-
I agree with Ben here.
For those that are having any issues with cutouts however, you should be thinking one of 2 things for sure. Do I upgrade to the size 6 controller? Or do I trade in on a 2013? Just be a motorcycle enthusiast and do something different this month to your ride than it is now.
And making it faster will make you smile more and live a happier life and therefor longer. Take your long term health into consideration and get a size 6 upgrade on your 2012! Or get a 2013! Or a 2013 with plans for a size 6! <--- warning!, being that happy could cause unknown results and or pain in your cheeks from too much smiling under your helmet, and/or outliving your retirement and social security. Proceed with caution.
I agree with Terry ;D I just can't imagine that smile with the 2013 and a size 6 :o 8)
Doc
-
Just to add more complication to the decision. I'd love a 2013 but it would have to be the 8.5 because I found the 11.4 DS a bit too heavy for my riding style (and the 8.5 range is plenty) however I suspect that the new cell's used in the MY13's can't provide a high enough discharge rate for a size 6 controller, from the smaller pack. Any thoughts?
-
MX ZF5.7 has the same Sevcon Size 4, 75-7 motor as the S bike. With two modules it has a peak power output of 40 kW. So ZF8.5 S/DS with 3 modules should be able to drive a 60 kW motor, at least for a short time.