ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: cirrus pete on August 31, 2012, 03:05:19 AM
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http://jalopnik.com/5938778/in-this-electric-motorcycle-lies-the-future-of-hoonage (http://jalopnik.com/5938778/in-this-electric-motorcycle-lies-the-future-of-hoonage)
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It is nice to see that the highlights that this rider found in the Empulse were for the most part shared with what I have read in reviews and impressions of the Zero bikes, minus the 'tie fighter' whine.
Overall, it makes me anxious to see what Zero has in store for us in the coming months.
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Makes me glad I went with the Street Triple r although that was clearly not the intent of the cursory overview. That quick-in-the-tight-corner thing applies to the Ninja 250r as well. In fact, the Ninja 250r is the ICE bike that Empulse should be compared to. The Street Triple r goes 0-60 mph is about 3 seconds and goes 150 mph. leaving the Empulse in its dust beside or slightly behind the Ninja 250r. Better yet so you are not terribly disappointed, the Empulse should be compared to another electric bike like the Zero S. The Empulse may look like a sport bike, but it isn't.
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Speaking of the Kawasaki 250 Ninja, the latest word is that Kawasaki has received EPA and CARB approval for a 300cc version of that motor. That model should offer a more direct IC comparison with the Empulse.
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I think the Empulse sits between a 250/300 and a 650 in performance, both in a straight line and on a track.
We'll see when the Empulse street bike actually makes it out to the track, but I think 250-class performance is underselling it somewhat.
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Exactly...also a Ninja 400cc is a possiblity, both FI. Heck, even I might like another little ninja. Kawa has already shipped several new bikes for 2013 including the 650r and they released the 250r FI version in Indonesia, one of their best markets, so they still make the 250, but the fact they did not release a 250r yet in the US does make it look like they will make it a 300r for the US market...and increase the price to $4999. It's a gutsy thing to do to take the best selling bike and change it, but I like the idea. A little more torque in the lower gears would be welcome. Afterall, we aren't limited to 250cc in the US like some countries are for a first bike. They will still have a 250r for racing as well. Same with the 600. It is scheduled to change to 636 again for general sales. Sep 13 is the unveiling. I just got an email from Kawa. Meanwhile Honda with their CBR 250 single that vibrates and is comparatively slow is likely to lose even more market share. It points out the difference between ICE bikes and electric. Kawa will bore out the cylinders a little and add FI which has been around for years, so it's just tweaking, but the electric bikes have entirely new systems each year...almost everything on the Empulse is new. Look out. I feel a glitch coming on.
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Exactly...also a Ninja 400cc is a possiblity, both FI. Heck, even I might like another little ninja. Kawa has already shipped several new bikes for 2013 including the 650r and they released the 250r FI version in Indonesia, one of their best markets, so they still make the 250, but the fact they did not release a 250r yet in the US does make it look like they will make it a 300r for the US market...and increase the price to $4999. It's a gutsy thing to do to take the best selling bike and change it, but I like the idea. A little more torque in the lower gears would be welcome. Afterall, we aren't limited to 250cc in the US like some countries are for a first bike. They will still have a 250r for racing as well. Same with the 600. It is scheduled to change to 636 again for general sales. Sep 13 is the unveiling. I just got an email from Kawa. Meanwhile Honda with their CBR 250 single that vibrates and is comparatively slow is likely to lose even more market share. It points out the difference between ICE bikes and electric. Kawa will bore out the cylinders a little and add FI which has been around for years, so it's just tweaking, but the electric bikes have entirely new systems each year...almost everything on the Empulse is new. Look out. I feel a glitch coming on.
You don't suppose it's a series of glitches that have held up the Empulse production version vs the racing/demo/product review prototype we've seen these past 2 years?
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Is lack of money a glitch?
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I was reading over on the Brammo owners forum, and they are excited that they have recently received "Empulse Pre-ordernotification" via email. What surprises me is that there are apparently ~600 people willing to wait several years to spend $18000 on a sight-unseen motorcycle; when they could be riding a Zero S today. Is the Empulse really that much better than the Zero??
Wes Siler seems to think so. Remember his Zero S review: (Sorry about the painful memories)
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/)
In that Zero review he bitched about everything. From the headlight to the range to the charge time to you name it. Not sure if you could say he said anything positive about the Zero or e-moto's at all. In the Brammo review, he said not one negative thing.
In the zero review, he listed "5 inconvenient truths" related to charging & range; all of which apply (at least mostly) to the Empulse. Not one was mentioned in the Brammo review.
In the zero review, he listed "7 mandatory requirements" before buying a Zero; again all also apply to the Empulse. Not one was mentioned in the Brammo review.
In the zero review, he complained bitterly and repetitively about the "60 mile effective range". In the Brammo review: "The best part? The 9.3 kWh battery pack lasts for about 50 miles"
In the zero review, he never once mentioned operating costs. In the Brammo review: "The cost for those 50 miles ... About $1.25."
I could go on, but you get the point.
So what is it? The added horsepower? The gearshift? The styling? The components? Or is Wes just unfairly biased for some reason?
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I have the same comments that you do ColoPaul. Of course the first thing that comes to my mind is that Wes got the deluxe treatment from Brammo. He got the factory tour, got to ride with the Empulse's designer, a top racer and another member of their staff. They rode really fast on twisty secondary roads to a designated restaurant which Brammo already knew that the bike would manage without running out of power. There a quick charging station was available (paid for by Brammo). They then had a nice lunch and after the bikes were recharged rode home along the same great scenic motorcycle-type roads in beautiful weather. That might color your opinion of a test vehicle, compared with just picking up a Zero DS at a retail dealer and riding it around without any factory reps with you, having no place to recharge the bike and then riding home on a stinking LA freeway and staying on it (instead of getting off and riding on a frontage road at a slower speed) while the fuel gauge bars disappeared. Finally, he had to take a leak and do so alongside the freeway, instead of at a nice restaurant, after having a meal paid for by the factory. I can see how his opinion of electric motorcycles might have changed (been influenced?) between his Zero experience and his Brammo test ride.
It would have been nice if Wes had explained how and why his view about electric motorcycles had changed since his experience with the Zero. Without that explanation, I'll have to draw my own conclusions. ::)
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yes, agree - Wes certainly biased. but then from Zero we expect now day to day reliability and a complete package on that level.
Now time will tell and competition is any case good will all help the cause.
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Bottom line is Zero actually produces bikes, and Brammo says they produce bikes while really just boiling water to make more hot air.
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Bottom line is Zero actually produces bikes, and Brammo says they produce bikes while really just boiling water to make more hot air.
+1
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I guess that review would about as useful as having the Republicans evaluate the Democrats or the Democrats evaluating the Republicans ;D
Trikester
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Wes Siler seems to think so. Remember his Zero S review: (Sorry about the painful memories)
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/)
In that Zero review he bitched about everything. From the headlight to the range to the charge time to you name it. Not sure if you could say he said anything positive about the Zero or e-moto's at all. In the Brammo review, he said not one negative thing.
In the zero review, he listed "5 inconvenient truths" related to charging & range; all of which apply (at least mostly) to the Empulse. Not one was mentioned in the Brammo review.
In the zero review, he listed "7 mandatory requirements" before buying a Zero; again all also apply to the Empulse. Not one was mentioned in the Brammo review.
In the zero review, he complained bitterly and repetitively about the "60 mile effective range". In the Brammo review: "The best part? The 9.3 kWh battery pack lasts for about 50 miles"
In the zero review, he never once mentioned operating costs. In the Brammo review: "The cost for those 50 miles ... About $1.25."
I could go on, but you get the point.
From his review:
Inconvenient truths.
Truth #1: Sixty miles is about as much as you’ll want to rely on.
Truth #2: Even with a quick charger, full recharges take five hours.
Truth #3: Easily accessible outdoor outlets are much harder to find than you think.
Truth #4: Plugging in for 45 minutes here or an hour there at some random outlet (the quick charger is too big to conveniently take with you) does absolutely nothing.
Truth #4: Distances aren’t one way when you can only really charge at home. A 10-mile journey has to be thought of as 20 miles, or one-third the 9kWh Zero’s effective range. That’s right, something that’s 10 miles away is one-third of your maximum reliable travel distance. You can travel there three times a day max and, once you’re there, your next move has to be limited accordingly.
#1 still pretty much applies to the Empulse. At best, the Empulse has 30% more range than the Zero. At very low speeds it may be worse.
#2 Wes states the quick charger was impractical to carry. Comparing stock to stock, in mixed riding the Empulse charges at approximately 3x the Zero's speed in terms of miles per hour.. which is still slow (22 mph vs 7 mph).
#3 J1772 plugs in the wild are much rarer than 120V AC outlets if you're willing to hunt for them. J1772 EVSE are more convenient to conventional parking areas where available -- such as at Brammo's carefully scripted lunch destination.
#4 Wes is technically wrong - the ZF9 bikes recharge 1.3 to 1.5 bars per hour in my experience. This is really just a variant on #2 above; and the displays on the Empulse give a better gauge of battery SOC than the 11-bar resolution Zero gauge. Stopping for an hour and seeing only a single bar in capacity gain sucks a lot more than seeing battery go from 40% to 69%.
#4.2 This is really a combination of #3 and #4. If you can't effectively charge while out and about, then range calculation always has to use round trip miles.
Wes recaps later:
It’s not so much the maximum range that’s the limiting factor, it’s actually the recharge time. Essentially relegated to overnight for anyone that doesn’t sit still all day, it makes the Zero utterly inflexible transportation.
I agree about 80% with this conclusion. Provided that you can conveniently and quickly charge - only part of this is the bike, part of this is your local infrastructure - then range is largely alleviated as a concern.
Unfortunately, today J1772 outlets are rather uncommon on the ground in much of the US. Unless you happen to have access to J1772 EVSE at places where you spend large amounts of time - movie theaters, shopping outlets, workplaces, home / apartment buildings, parking garages - then you have to budget enough range to get you there and back again.
The Empulse's charging capabilities make it a significantly more flexible bike than the Zero, in theory. Wes's canned demo with the Brammo guys is a nice snapshot of the future many municipalities are working towards.
I disagree with a portion of his 7 requirements to own a Zero, but they all apply as much to the Empulse as they do to a 2012 Zero ZF9.
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I have the same comments that you do ColoPaul. Of course the first thing that comes to my mind is that Wes got the deluxe treatment from Brammo. He got the factory tour, got to ride with the Empulse's designer, a top racer and another member of their staff. They rode really fast on twisty secondary roads to a designated restaurant which Brammo already knew that the bike would manage without running out of power. There a quick charging station was available (paid for by Brammo). They then had a nice lunch and after the bikes were recharged rode home along the same great scenic motorcycle-type roads in beautiful weather. That might color your opinion of a test vehicle, compared with just picking up a Zero DS at a retail dealer and riding it around without any factory reps with you, having no place to recharge the bike and then riding home on a stinking LA freeway and staying on it (instead of getting off and riding on a frontage road at a slower speed) while the fuel gauge bars disappeared. Finally, he had to take a leak and do so alongside the freeway, instead of at a nice restaurant, after having a meal paid for by the factory. I can see how his opinion of electric motorcycles might have changed (been influenced?) between his Zero experience and his Brammo test ride.
It would have been nice if Wes had explained how and why his view about electric motorcycles had changed since his experience with the Zero. Without that explanation, I'll have to draw my own conclusions. ::)
I put no stock in trade rag reviews of any product for this reason. Invariably the "journalists" that review products are influenced by manufacturers in various ways.
The Wired review ends like this:
http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/08/brammo-empulse-r/all/ (http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/08/brammo-empulse-r/all/)
WIRED 50 miles of knee-down fun for just $1.25 of “fuel.†One of the best-handling bikes ever, regardless of power source. Visible batteries and electric motor connect electricity to lust. Gearbox re-instills rider involvement.
TIRED Clunky gearbox can be reluctant to shift. Heavy clutch could make city riding tiring. Ambient temperatures in excess of 105 degrees can limit performance. Low pegs limit lean angles.
Clunky gearbox, eh? Imagine that.
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Clunky could mean that's it's stiff (might loosen up as it breaks in) .. or it could mean that the transmission / motor combination just behaves differently than Siler's expectations.
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clunky gearbox ? its all that metal, gears, stuff. ride my harley and you hear each shift, clunk. feel it anyway, how all the torque applies to the gears... yet for most riding rather go on the Zero...
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I have the same comments that you do ColoPaul. Of course the first thing that comes to my mind is that Wes got the deluxe treatment from Brammo. He got the factory tour, got to ride with the Empulse's designer, a top racer and another member of their staff. They rode really fast on twisty secondary roads to a designated restaurant which Brammo already knew that the bike would manage without running out of power. There a quick charging station was available (paid for by Brammo). They then had a nice lunch and after the bikes were recharged rode home along the same great scenic motorcycle-type roads in beautiful weather. That might color your opinion of a test vehicle, compared with just picking up a Zero DS at a retail dealer and riding it around without any factory reps with you, having no place to recharge the bike and then riding home on a stinking LA freeway and staying on it (instead of getting off and riding on a frontage road at a slower speed) while the fuel gauge bars disappeared. Finally, he had to take a leak and do so alongside the freeway, instead of at a nice restaurant, after having a meal paid for by the factory. I can see how his opinion of electric motorcycles might have changed (been influenced?) between his Zero experience and his Brammo test ride.
It would have been nice if Wes had explained how and why his view about electric motorcycles had changed since his experience with the Zero. Without that explanation, I'll have to draw my own conclusions. ::)
Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?
He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.
There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...
Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?
Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/ (http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/)
How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?
Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?
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Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?
He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.
Wes Siler does not work for Brammo. He joined the Brammo forum because I invited him to defend himself following his article on the Zero S which included a lot of criticism of electric motorcycles in general. If you would like to engage him in a discussion on this thread, perhaps you should reach out to him.
There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...
Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?
Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/ (http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/)
How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?
Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?
[/quote]
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Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?
He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.
#1: I'll grant you that this is the most popular Zero forum. He is a member of both forums, and basically joined to defend criticism of both the RideApart Zero review and the Empulse "first ride" (yes, on the Brammo forum).
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664;sa=showPosts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664;sa=showPosts)
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5272;sa=showPosts (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5272;sa=showPosts)
#2: Are you confusing him with FreepZ on the Brammo forums? He's hardly a regular poster on either forum .. and I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...
Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?
Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/ (http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/)
How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?
Maybe because there's some truth to Wes's claims behind his hyperbole.
Lipo423 probably would not have needed to upgrade the brakes on his Zero if they came with the Empulse's dual Brembos. On the other hand, if the Empulse didn't weigh 470 pounds maybe it wouldn't need dual rotors.
Offthegrid wouldn't need to upgrade to 4x chargers + J1772 inlet if the Zero had a 3-4 kW J1772 charger.
Numerous people here complain about the forks on the Zeros.
The Zero isn't a bad bike; the 2012 bikes have been shipping for the better part of a year, and there's a huge price gap between the entry Zero S and the Empulse R. When the Empulse R ships, it will probably be closer to the 2013 Zeros than the 2012 .. and they may be significantly more competitive. We'll see when we have information on the 2013s and we know when they and the Empulse R will actually ship.
"Consumer-ready" doesn't mean currently shipping. It just means you don't have to use the "good for an electric" excuse. The Zeros are fantastic bikes for the thousand or so people that own them. Dropping that excuse is one of the things electric motorcycles must do to pick up sales beyond a few hundred bikes per year.
Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?
Probably Wes is his own editor. Wired, Jalopnik, MCN have all published modified versions of his first ride report, presumably as a guest writer. He's written extensively for Jalopnik and Wired in the past.
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My main problem with Wes is not that he's biased -we all are- but that he's a megalomaniac. It's all about him, and if you don't agree his views you're an idiot. He doesn't see that the Zero may be the right bike for some people.
He writes his reviews basically like this: "I don't like the Zero, so clearly it's for lame, stupid, pussy scooter riders with money to throw away. There is nothing good about the Zero. However, I like Brammo, so clearly it's for intelligent, ballsy manly-men, serious real motorcyclists. Everything is good about Brammo.". ::) A good reviewer would list the pros and cons of both bikes, taking into consideration different viewpoints of a wide audience.
But who knows. If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias". I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. :(
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He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
As noted by protomech, Wes Siler's actually been a member of EMF since May 2012:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664)
If someone is going to accuse a journalist with an "outrageous violation of journalistic integrity," he should take 30 seconds to research whether his claims have any basis in fact.
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I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. :(
As you say, we need reviews which accurately portray both the benefits and drawbacks of an electric powertrain, and provides enough information to allow a reader who is not actively hostile to electrics to determine whether a particular bike is right for him/her.
The RideApart video review of the DS was unduly negative, putting the bike in a contrived situation and crabbing about it when it performed to the range specs claim.
The Empulse review first ride report was unduly positive, again putting the bike in a contrived, idealized situation and gushing over it.
I think the Life Electric series on the Zero DS came closest to being balanced, of all of Wes's pieces. It was largely negative, yes, but read carefully much of that negativity is due to a poor fit between Wes's depicted freewheeling lifestyle and the inability to rapidly charge while out and about. I think it would have been improved by additionally examining a counterpart lifestyle which DOES work with the electrics, and allow the reader to do some navelgazing and determine whether their particular situation is closer to one or the other.
Wes isn't an electric "true believer", but he is interested in the technology. As he mentions in Ted Dillard's Q&A, he's been covering the electric bike scene for many years; his 2008 Quantya Strada review was the trigger for my interest in electric motorcycles. He's a good stand-in for the average motorcyclist who is open to electrics, and because he's not a "true believer" his reviews carry a lot of weight with those guys & gals.
I just wish the recent reviews weren't so flawed.
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My main problem with Wes is not that he's biased -we all are- but that he's a megalomaniac. It's all about him, and if you don't agree his views you're an idiot. He doesn't see that the Zero may be the right bike for some people.
He writes his reviews basically like this: "I don't like the Zero, so clearly it's for lame, stupid, pussy scooter riders with money to throw away. There is nothing good about the Zero. However, I like Brammo, so clearly it's for intelligent, ballsy manly-men, serious real motorcyclists. Everything is good about Brammo.". ::) A good reviewer would list the pros and cons of both bikes, taking into consideration different viewpoints of a wide audience.
And readers eat this stuff up. You see this kind of shill-as-reviewer crapola in many consumer product industries like audiophile.
But who knows. If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias". I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. :(
If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a bigot, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.
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He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
As noted by protomech, Wes Siler's actually been a member of EMF since May 2012:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664)
If someone is going to accuse a journalist with an "outrageous violation of journalistic integrity," he should take 30 seconds to research whether his claims have any basis in fact.
The link above is where Wes is on the Brammo forum responding to members who are asking him to hurry up and publish he latest Zero-bashing, Brammo lauding review. Really? Can you imagine a Consumer Reports product reviewer, one with a reputation for giving positive reviews of that manufacturer's product, posting a comment on a manufacturer's forum explaining why his review is late? Ridiculous.
He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a Brammo bigot.
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Wes Siler does not work for Brammo.
He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a shill for Brammo.
Brammofan earlier refuted the bit about him working for Brammo. I'm with you at "I don't like his review, it has serious issues", but you lose me when you jump to "he must be a shill". Since you claim that his shilling is beyond dispute, do you have information on a hidden link between Brammo and Wes?
Wes via HFL and other means has disclosed:
* he's reviewed the Brammo Enertia and numerous Zero models in the past
* he ate at Brammo's hospitality tent at Laguna Seca and visited with the Brammo folks, I believe the first ride report was arranged there
* per the Jalopnik review, he was flown to Brammo's HQ on Brammo's dime and presumably put up in a hotel also on Brammo's dime
We also know that he was given loaned a Zero DS and a quick charger for a number of weeks in his Life Electric review. Should we claim he's a Zero shill as well now?
But who knows. If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias". I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. :(
If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a shill, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.
Maybe Zero should send a pre-production 2013 Zero S and a quick charger for you to review and keep as a counterpart to the Empulse review. Then you could change your nick to Zerofan ; )
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Wes Siler does not work for Brammo.
He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a shill for Brammo.
Brammofan earlier refuted the bit about him working for Brammo. I'm with you at "I don't like his review, it has serious issues", but you lose me when you jump to "he must be a shill". Since you claim that his shilling is beyond dispute, do you have information on a hidden link between Brammo and Wes?
Wes via HFL and other means has disclosed:
* he's reviewed the Brammo Enertia and numerous Zero models in the past
* he ate at Brammo's hospitality tent at Laguna Seca and visited with the Brammo folks, I believe the first ride report was arranged there
* per the Jalopnik review, he was flown to Brammo's HQ on Brammo's dime and presumably put up in a hotel also on Brammo's dime
We also know that he was given a Zero DS and a quick charger for a number of weeks in his Life Electric review. Should we claim he's a Zero shill as well now?
But who knows. If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias". I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. :(
If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a shill, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.
Maybe Zero should send a pre-production 2013 Zero S and a quick charger for you to review and keep as a counterpart to the Empulse review. Then you could change your nick to Zerofan ; )
But I don't represent myself as a journalist and reviewer. I'm a Zero customer so I'm obviously biased.
No real journalist allows a manufacturer to pay for his flight, hotel, and meals for the simple reason that it creates an obligation, or at least the appearance of one, which is bad enough. His publisher pays for these to ensure that there is no obligation to the subject of the story.
Imagine a New York Times reporter going to cover a story on Brammo and allowing Brammo to pay for his trip. Never in million years.
But Wes is not a journalist working for a newspaper. He's this new creation of the Internet that came about when self-promoting bloggers learned that no one cared whether they are biased or not. They learned that most readers don't want a well-edited, fact-checked, even-handed review or story. They want an entertaining writer who presents a point of view they are inclined to agree with. They don't want facts they want opinions. Wes's target audience is macho motorcycle riders. He makes no attempt to be even-handed because he knows his readers enjoy his contemptuous dismissal of any electric motorcycle that isn't Brammo.
Now that Wes is by reputation firmly planted in Brammo's camp, you could argue that Zero just hasn't been agressive enough at developing a Zero-promoting blogger. Or maybe Zero doesn't want to play the game of cultivating a blogger with perks. Maybe they're old school. Maybe they are aiming to get reviewed by real, credible journalsits.
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No real journalist allows a manufacturer to pay for his flight, hotel, and meals for the simple reason that it creates an obligation, or at least the appearance of one, which is bad enough. His publisher pays for these to ensure that there is no obligation to the subject of the story.
Really?
While I agree with you about the New York Times and most other newspapers, motorcycle journalism has a different way of doing things. (I'd suspect it is the same way with automobile journalism as well, but motorcycle journalism is the only industry I'm familiar with.) Manufacturers have a long history of flying journalists from the leading magazines (Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Bike, MCN, etc) to exotic locales for lengthy road trips on their bikes, paying for track time, sometimes paying for spouses and families to accompany the journalists, providing tracksuits and other gear free of charge, etc.
As protomech stated, Zero provided Wes with a bike that he rode for about a month.
Brammo flew a journalist from Cycle World up to their headquarters up in Ashland, Oregon, to review the Empulse a few days after Siler's trip. These are just the two that I know of.
The world of motorcycle journalism can only support a few writers at any time because it's not particularly lucrative. One of the perks is that they get flown to various places by the manufacturers. No, the publishers do not pick up the tab -- they are struggling as well. Are the journalists expected to remain unbiased? Yes. Are they, in fact, unbiased? No - probably not. The magazines they write for have advertisers that expect to be rewarded with favorable stories.
I suspect that bias creeps in at some point in the process, no matter what the integrity of the writer might be. It has to go through the editor and the publisher. A publication like Hell For Leather has fewer points of weakness than most because it does not have advertising and Siler (and the other writers) are their own editors.
But, if it helps you cope or if it keeps you happy or whatever, ignore everything above and keep on believing that the deck is stacked in Brammo's favor and against Zero. It may or may not be the truth. The only reason I keep on commenting on this particular thread is to try to clear up inaccurate information like whether Siler works for Brammo, whether motorcycle journalists pay their own way (or whether their publishers do), and whether membership or participation in forums is some sort of violation of journalistic integrity. The answer to all of the above is 'no.'
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Now that Wes is by reputation firmly planted in Brammo's camp, you could argue that Zero just hasn't been agressive enough at developing a Zero-promoting blogger. Or maybe Zero doesn't want to play the game of cultivating a blogger with perks. Maybe they're old school. Maybe they are aiming to get reviewed by real, credible journalsits.
I don't see him "firmly in Brammo's camp" at all. I simply see the Empulse as more his kind of bike and the Zero as not. I don't think Zero could have gotten a better review of the 2012 ZF9 out of him, given his bias, if they had flown him to the Swiss Alps and provided him with bikes for the rest of his life. It doesn't meet his criteria. I think he would have given a similar review to an Enertia. He's a fan of the Empulse because they are targeting his preferences.
And, this style of polarized perspective-oriented reviews is not isolated to the blogosphere. Top Gear is one of the top rated shows in the world and thrives on blatantly opinionated reviews (a reality that it would have served Tesla to have realized before they convinced Jeremy Clarkson to review the Roadster, unfortunately).
People can, by and large, read through hyperbole based on opinions (a few people in the Tesla forums tried to point out that they found the Top Gear review mostly positive and it actually got them interested in the Roadster because they could read through Clarkson's hyperbolic lines, but their remarks fell on the deaf ears of a fan base that felt betrayed). It's not the ideal way to learn about a product, but unfortunately opinions make reviews more colorful and entertaining and increase their popularity - so we hone those skills and move on.
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Really?
While I agree with you about the New York Times and most other newspapers, motorcycle journalism has a different way of doing things. (I'd suspect it is the same way with automobile journalism as well, but motorcycle journalism is the only industry I'm familiar with.) Manufacturers have a long history of flying journalists from the leading magazines (Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Bike, MCN, etc) to exotic locales for lengthy road trips on their bikes, paying for track time, sometimes paying for spouses and families to accompany the journalists, providing tracksuits and other gear free of charge, etc.
This is, in fact, why Consumer Reports goes so far out of its way to stress the extreme lengths that they go to in obtaining unsolicited products to review - because this kind of treatment is not just common - it's the primary way that consumer reviews happen in every segment of the industry outside of Consumer Reports.
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This is, in fact, why Consumer Reports goes so far out of its way to stress the extreme lengths that they go to in obtaining unsolicited products to review - because this kind of treatment is not just common - it's the primary way that consumer reviews happen in every segment of the industry outside of Consumer Reports.
Exactly!
Now, let's wait for CR to review the electric motorcycles on the market.
When they do (or more accurately, if they do), we'll read about here, no doubt.
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No real journalist allows a manufacturer to pay for his flight, hotel, and meals for the simple reason that it creates an obligation, or at least the appearance of one, which is bad enough. His publisher pays for these to ensure that there is no obligation to the subject of the story.
Really?
While I agree with you about the New York Times and most other newspapers, motorcycle journalism has a different way of doing things. (I'd suspect it is the same way with automobile journalism as well, but motorcycle journalism is the only industry I'm familiar with.) Manufacturers have a long history of flying journalists from the leading magazines (Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Bike, MCN, etc) to exotic locales for lengthy road trips on their bikes, paying for track time, sometimes paying for spouses and families to accompany the journalists, providing tracksuits and other gear free of charge, etc.
As protomech stated, Zero provided Wes with a bike that he rode for about a month.
Brammo flew a journalist from Cycle World up to their headquarters up in Ashland, Oregon, to review the Empulse a few days after Siler's trip. These are just the two that I know of.
The world of motorcycle journalism can only support a few writers at any time because it's not particularly lucrative. One of the perks is that they get flown to various places by the manufacturers. No, the publishers do not pick up the tab -- they are struggling as well. Are the journalists expected to remain unbiased? Yes. Are they, in fact, unbiased? No - probably not. The magazines they write for have advertisers that expect to be rewarded with favorable stories.
I suspect that bias creeps in at some point in the process, no matter what the integrity of the writer might be. It has to go through the editor and the publisher. A publication like Hell For Leather has fewer points of weakness than most because it does not have advertising and Siler (and the other writers) are their own editors.
But, if it helps you cope or if it keeps you happy or whatever, ignore everything above and keep on believing that the deck is stacked in Brammo's favor and against Zero. It may or may not be the truth. The only reason I keep on commenting on this particular thread is to try to clear up inaccurate information like whether Siler works for Brammo, whether motorcycle journalists pay their own way (or whether their publishers do), and whether membership or participation in forums is some sort of violation of journalistic integrity. The answer to all of the above is 'no.'
This is very helpful. I appreciate your thoughtful comments on this.
If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then motocycle trade magazines are as corrupt as automobile trade magazines.
For this reason the only auto news and review site I read is the editorially independent TruthAboutCars.com. You can read about them here, if you are not already aware of the site:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/faqs/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/faqs/)
Is there is no equivalent in the motocycle industry?
Sounds like an opportunity to me!
If this is the way motorcycle reviews advertisements work, Zero needs to get with the program and buy themselves some journalists opportunistic writers with free trips, meals, track time, etc., or they're going to get buried in the competition's propaganda.
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He's a member of the Brammo forums...
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0)
But not the Zero forums.
As noted by protomech, Wes Siler's actually been a member of EMF since May 2012:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664)
If someone is going to accuse a journalist with an "outrageous violation of journalistic integrity," he should take 30 seconds to research whether his claims have any basis in fact.
The link above is where Wes is on the Brammo forum responding to members who are asking him to hurry up and publish he latest Zero-bashing, Brammo lauding review. Really? Can you imagine a Consumer Reports product reviewer, one with a reputation for giving positive reviews of that manufacturer's product, posting a comment on a manufacturer's forum explaining why his review is late? Ridiculous.
As for fact checking.
Actually, no, the link above is where Wes is writing a review (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2012/08/honda-nc700x-the-swiss-army-knife-of-bikes/) for Hell for Leather magazine and protomech quoted that external article in the Brammo forum. Wes never posted those words on the Brammo forum - protomech forwarded them there.
Here is the original post (linked from that forum posting that you linked to) where he attributes the source of Wes's comment: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1467.msg11153#msg11153 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1467.msg11153#msg11153)
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If this is the way motorcycle reviews advertisements work, Zero needs to get with the program and buy themselves some journalists opportunistic writers with free trips, meals, track time, etc., or they're going to get buried in the competition's propaganda.
I think what they did was fine, but they need to find a journalist (hopefully one that is well read) whose bias accepts the design constraints of their bikes.
Or one of the blog/journalists who pride themselves on unbiased reviews (though I imagine they are less entertaining and likely less widely read)...
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If this is the way motorcycle reviews advertisements work, Zero needs to get with the program and buy themselves some journalists opportunistic writers with free trips, meals, track time, etc., or they're going to get buried in the competition's propaganda.
I think what they did was fine, but they need to find a journalist (hopefully one that is well read) whose bias accepts the design constraints of their bikes.
Or one of the blog/journalists who pride themselves on unbiased reviews (though I imagine they are less entertaining and likely less widely read)...
Without financial independence there can be no editorial independence. The economics of the motorcycle trade mags is such that no periodical can afford to pay its writers' expenses; editorial independence is economically impossible.
That's fine as long as readers know they are not reading truly independent reviews. I bet most do not.
Reminds me of Jim Cramer's Mad Money show. The innocent think the show is about investing in stocks. In truth the show is about getting viewers to watch the show and trade stocks so that the show's producers and distributors earn advertising dollars from brokerages that earn fees when investors trade stocks. Statistically viewers lose money by following Cramer's advice. Millions watch him because he's entertaining as hell and they don't know that they will lose money if they follow his advice. There used to be a site that you could go to that tracked his calls but TheStree.com's lawyer's shut it down. A boring stock advice guy who actually makes viewers money will have a tiny audience that doesn't make the shows distributors money. These are the guys who sell expensive newsletters.
Consumer reports is a consumer products version of an investor newsletter. The reviews are independent because readers pay CU to pay for the tests. CU controls every aspect of the tests to make sure they are fair and comparable, and does not accept advertising.
A CU review of Brammo vs Zero will be boring as hell but balanced and informative.
CU only reviews shipping, production products, so that will have to wait until the day Brammo has one that competes with Zero.
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I have a friend who is an independent journalist and wrote a lot of motorcycle reviews during the 1990's. He particularly favored BMW motorcycles and was flown and wined and dined by BMW, along with many other motorcycle journalists, all over the World when they had a new model to introduce. In addition to that, he got to ride the new motorcycle on race tracks and/or exotic highways in the country and always ended up with lots of nice swag. It was a very pleasant lifestyle and he wrote favorable articles about every new BMW model, got paid for it and made a reasonable living doing so (in addition to writing technical journals) .
Finally he bought a new R1000S in 1999 - with his own cash. Then he started to have problems with the bike and when he tried to get BMW to make warranty repairs to what he considered legitimate build-quality problems, they blew him off (in his opinion). After that, in the article about the next new model that he reviewed, he outlined its warts and little design problems that a new owner might want to hear about. That was too much for BMW and not only did they not invite him to any more new model introductions, but they actually "blackballed" him in the industry. None of the major motorcycle magazines would print any of his articles about anything for the next 10 years. Only recently has he been able to write motorcycle review articles for a local free motorcycle publication and he never gets to review BMW motorcycles, but has been testing and reviewing every other brand. If you write articles for manufacturers that have a large advertizing budget, you have to leave some of your objectivity behind - otherwise you will be out in the cold.
As far as Consumer Reports goes, you never want them to review any type of motorcycle. :o I have been subscribing to their magazine for over 40 years and they have only reviewed (IC) motorcycles three times, twice during the gas crisis of the 1970's and once a few years ago. Each time they were not very complementary to two-wheeled vehicles (they keep falling over when you stop them and are not safe when you run into a brick wall). I don't even want to think what they might write about an electric motorcycle, but I am sure that it wouldn't be anything that would help the industry much. :(
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CR does follow motorcycles. I don't know if they don't make it to the magazines you receive, Richard230, but they've even covered the Zeros.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/07/zero-s-electric-motorcycle.html (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/07/zero-s-electric-motorcycle.html)
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/03/new-electric-motorcycle-zero-xu-is-easily-charged-anywhere-.html (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/03/new-electric-motorcycle-zero-xu-is-easily-charged-anywhere-.html)
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/11/new-zero-electric-motorcycles-promise-100-mile-plus-range.html (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/11/new-zero-electric-motorcycles-promise-100-mile-plus-range.html)
TTAC is the only automotive news site I follow on a somewhat regular basis. They typically pass on the press junket, though I recall that even they get flown out from time to time on a manufacturer's dime to various events. They're good about disclosing it, as Wes did in the Jalopnik review. Of course, like every other news side aside from CR TTAC receives and reviews press cars, and the manufacturer can and will cut them off from future press products if they dislike the review (see: Subaru Tribeca "flying vagina" and JB from all porsche things forever).
Particularly with pre-production models, Brammo doesn't have time to ground ship a bike to a reviewer. It's faster (which == cheaper) for them to fly a journalist in to ride and report on the bike. In an ideal world, the publication would pay for the journalist's air fare and lodging.
We don't live in an ideal world. I would bet that CycleWorld didn't pay their own airfare either, and further that it won't be disclosed.
Wes claims (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.msg11244#msg11244) HFL has a higher reader count than any print magazine in the US. That may or may not be true - no idea what his number of unique visitors is - but it's certainly true that his review has been published for 3 weeks, and we haven't seen a peep out of CycleWorld.
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I have never seen any of those articles in the CR magazine. I haven't heard motorcycles even mentioned since their November 2010 issue, when they reviewed the Aprilia Scarabeo 200 and the Honda SH150i. Prior to that they tested small motorcycles and scooters in their June 1981 and had a general article about motorcycles in their January 1973 issues. And that is it for their their monthly print magazine over the past 40 years.
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The more I think about this the more I think it's a waste of time to think about how Brammo and Zero market their products.
I came to this after reading Richard230's story about his friend who was a BMW employee for 10 years plus without, apparently, knowing it.
How could he not understand that treats and money for good reviews was the deal?
Denial, I guess.
I see these hugely fat dudes on Harley's riding down the highway in t-shirt, shorts, flip flops and no helmut and I wonder what kind of fantasy world they're living in.
If they don't die from a head injury the fat-clogged ticker will get them. All part of the same romantic philosophy of life, I suppose.
Motorcycles attract people who are trying to escape reality. What makes Zero riders different is that we are very much into reality. We're just trying to figure out how to ride quietly through it. ;D