Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ZeroSinMA]

I have the same comments that you do ColoPaul.  Of course the first thing that comes to my mind is that Wes got the deluxe treatment from Brammo.  He got the factory tour, got to ride with the Empulse's designer, a top racer and another member of their staff.  They rode really fast on twisty secondary roads to a designated restaurant which Brammo already knew that the bike would manage without running out of power.  There a quick charging station was available (paid for by Brammo).  They then had a nice lunch and after the bikes were recharged rode home along the same great scenic motorcycle-type roads in beautiful weather.  That might color your opinion of a test vehicle, compared with just picking up a Zero DS at a retail dealer and riding it around without any factory reps with you, having no place to recharge the bike and then riding home on a stinking LA freeway and staying on it (instead of getting off and riding on a frontage road at a slower speed) while the fuel gauge bars disappeared.  Finally, he had to take a leak and do so alongside the freeway, instead of at a nice restaurant, after having a meal paid for by the factory.  I can see how his opinion of electric motorcycles might have changed (been influenced?) between his Zero experience and his Brammo test ride.

It would have been nice if Wes had explained how and why his view about electric motorcycles had changed since his experience with the Zero.  Without that explanation, I'll have to draw my own conclusions.   

I put no stock in trade rag reviews of any product for this reason. Invariably the "journalists" that review products are influenced by manufacturers in various ways.

The Wired review ends like this:

http://www.wired.com/reviews/2012/08/brammo-empulse-r/all/

WIRED 50 miles of knee-down fun for just $1.25 of “fuel.” One of the best-handling bikes ever, regardless of power source. Visible batteries and electric motor connect electricity to lust. Gearbox re-instills rider involvement.

TIRED Clunky gearbox can be reluctant to shift. Heavy clutch could make city riding tiring. Ambient temperatures in excess of 105 degrees can limit performance. Low pegs limit lean angles.

Clunky gearbox, eh? Imagine that.

[protomech]

Clunky could mean that's it's stiff (might loosen up as it breaks in) .. or it could mean that the transmission / motor combination just behaves differently than Siler's expectations.

[manlytom]

clunky gearbox ? its all that metal, gears, stuff. ride my harley and you hear each shift, clunk. feel it anyway, how all the torque applies to the gears... yet for most riding rather go on the Zero...


 

[ZeroSinMA]

I have the same comments that you do ColoPaul.  Of course the first thing that comes to my mind is that Wes got the deluxe treatment from Brammo.  He got the factory tour, got to ride with the Empulse's designer, a top racer and another member of their staff.  They rode really fast on twisty secondary roads to a designated restaurant which Brammo already knew that the bike would manage without running out of power.  There a quick charging station was available (paid for by Brammo).  They then had a nice lunch and after the bikes were recharged rode home along the same great scenic motorcycle-type roads in beautiful weather.  That might color your opinion of a test vehicle, compared with just picking up a Zero DS at a retail dealer and riding it around without any factory reps with you, having no place to recharge the bike and then riding home on a stinking LA freeway and staying on it (instead of getting off and riding on a frontage road at a slower speed) while the fuel gauge bars disappeared.  Finally, he had to take a leak and do so alongside the freeway, instead of at a nice restaurant, after having a meal paid for by the factory.  I can see how his opinion of electric motorcycles might have changed (been influenced?) between his Zero experience and his Brammo test ride.

It would have been nice if Wes had explained how and why his view about electric motorcycles had changed since his experience with the Zero.  Without that explanation, I'll have to draw my own conclusions.   

Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?

He's a member of the Brammo forums...

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0

But not the Zero forums.

That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.

There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...

Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?

Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "

http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/

How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?

Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?

[Brammofan]

Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?

He's a member of the Brammo forums...

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0

But not the Zero forums.

That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.

Wes Siler does not work for Brammo.  He joined the Brammo forum because I invited him to defend himself following his article on the Zero S which included a lot of criticism of electric motorcycles in general.  If you would like to engage him in a discussion on this thread, perhaps you should reach out to him. 

There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...

Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?

Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "

http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/

How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?

Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?
[/quote]

[protomech]

Does Wes Siler work for Brammo?

He's a member of the Brammo forums...

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0

But not the Zero forums.

That alone is totally outrageous violation of journalistic integrity.

#1: I'll grant you that this is the most popular Zero forum. He is a member of both forums, and basically joined to defend criticism of both the RideApart Zero review and the Empulse "first ride" (yes, on the Brammo forum).
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664;sa=showPosts
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5272;sa=showPosts

#2: Are you confusing him with FreepZ on the Brammo forums? He's hardly a regular poster on either forum .. and I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

There must be a reason why he says things like this re the Zero vs Empulse...

Q: Why did the Empulse work so much better for you?

Wes: …as a serious motorcyclist, I just want a serious motorcycle, not a loose conglomeration of parts that are vaguely capable of transporting me a short distance. The Empulse is a full-realized, consumer-ready product that goes and stops just like an ICE bike and handles even better than one. There’s no cut corners and no bullshit. "

http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/zero-zf9-vs-brammo-empulse-r-talking-with-wes-siler/

How can the Empulse be a "full-realized, consumer-ready product" when it still isn't shipping and the Zero has been shipping for more than two years?

Maybe because there's some truth to Wes's claims behind his hyperbole.

Lipo423 probably would not have needed to upgrade the brakes on his Zero if they came with the Empulse's dual Brembos. On the other hand, if the Empulse didn't weigh 470 pounds maybe it wouldn't need dual rotors.

Offthegrid wouldn't need to upgrade to 4x chargers + J1772 inlet if the Zero had a 3-4 kW J1772 charger.

Numerous people here complain about the forks on the Zeros.

The Zero isn't a bad bike; the 2012 bikes have been shipping for the better part of a year, and there's a huge price gap between the entry Zero S and the Empulse R. When the Empulse R ships, it will probably be closer to the 2013 Zeros than the 2012 .. and they may be significantly more competitive. We'll see when we have information on the 2013s and we know when they and the Empulse R will actually ship.

"Consumer-ready" doesn't mean currently shipping. It just means you don't have to use the "good for an electric" excuse. The Zeros are fantastic bikes for the thousand or so people that own them. Dropping that excuse is one of the things electric motorcycles must do to pick up sales beyond a few hundred bikes per year.

Doesn't Wes have an editor who checks facts or is Wired one of those rags that chooses a manufacturer for the ad revenue?

Probably Wes is his own editor. Wired, Jalopnik, MCN have all published modified versions of his first ride report, presumably as a guest writer. He's written extensively for Jalopnik and Wired in the past.

[ColoPaul]

My main problem with Wes is not that he's biased -we all are- but that he's a megalomaniac.  It's all about him, and if you don't agree his views you're an idiot.  He doesn't see that the Zero may be the right bike for some people. 

He writes his reviews basically like this: "I don't like the Zero, so clearly it's for lame, stupid, pussy scooter riders with money to throw away.  There is nothing good about the Zero.  However, I like Brammo, so clearly it's for intelligent, ballsy manly-men, serious real motorcyclists.  Everything is good about Brammo.".    A good reviewer would list the pros and cons of both bikes, taking into consideration different viewpoints of a wide audience.

But who knows.  If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias".   I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. 

[Brammofan]

He's a member of the Brammo forums...

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0

But not the Zero forums.

As noted by protomech, Wes Siler's actually been a member of EMF since May 2012:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664

If someone is going to accuse a journalist with an "outrageous violation of journalistic integrity," he should take 30 seconds to research whether his claims have any basis in fact. 

[protomech]

I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. 

As you say, we need reviews which accurately portray both the benefits and drawbacks of an electric powertrain, and provides enough information to allow a reader who is not actively hostile to electrics to determine whether a particular bike is right for him/her.

The RideApart video review of the DS was unduly negative, putting the bike in a contrived situation and crabbing about it when it performed to the range specs claim.

The Empulse review first ride report was unduly positive, again putting the bike in a contrived, idealized situation and gushing over it.

I think the Life Electric series on the Zero DS came closest to being balanced, of all of Wes's pieces. It was largely negative, yes, but read carefully much of that negativity is due to a poor fit between Wes's depicted freewheeling lifestyle and the inability to rapidly charge while out and about. I think it would have been improved by additionally examining a counterpart lifestyle which DOES work with the electrics, and allow the reader to do some navelgazing and determine whether their particular situation is closer to one or the other.

Wes isn't an electric "true believer", but he is interested in the technology. As he mentions in Ted Dillard's Q&A, he's been covering the electric bike scene for many years; his 2008 Quantya Strada review was the trigger for my interest in electric motorcycles. He's a good stand-in for the average motorcyclist who is open to electrics, and because he's not a "true believer" his reviews carry a lot of weight with those guys & gals.

I just wish the recent reviews weren't so flawed.

[ZeroSinMA]

My main problem with Wes is not that he's biased -we all are- but that he's a megalomaniac.  It's all about him, and if you don't agree his views you're an idiot.  He doesn't see that the Zero may be the right bike for some people. 

He writes his reviews basically like this: "I don't like the Zero, so clearly it's for lame, stupid, pussy scooter riders with money to throw away.  There is nothing good about the Zero.  However, I like Brammo, so clearly it's for intelligent, ballsy manly-men, serious real motorcyclists.  Everything is good about Brammo.".    A good reviewer would list the pros and cons of both bikes, taking into consideration different viewpoints of a wide audience.

And readers eat this stuff up. You see this kind of shill-as-reviewer crapola in many consumer product industries like audiophile.

But who knows.  If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias".   I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. 

If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a bigot, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.

[ZeroSinMA]

He's a member of the Brammo forums...

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1518.0

But not the Zero forums.

As noted by protomech, Wes Siler's actually been a member of EMF since May 2012:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1664

If someone is going to accuse a journalist with an "outrageous violation of journalistic integrity," he should take 30 seconds to research whether his claims have any basis in fact. 

The link above is where Wes is on the Brammo forum responding to members who are asking him to hurry up and publish he latest Zero-bashing, Brammo lauding review. Really? Can you imagine a Consumer Reports product reviewer, one with a reputation for giving positive reviews of that manufacturer's product, posting a comment on a manufacturer's forum explaining why his  review is late? Ridiculous.

He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a Brammo bigot.

[protomech]

Wes Siler does not work for Brammo.

He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a shill for Brammo.

Brammofan earlier refuted the bit about him working for Brammo. I'm with you at "I don't like his review, it has serious issues", but you lose me when you jump to "he must be a shill". Since you claim that his shilling is beyond dispute, do you have information on a hidden link between Brammo and Wes?

Wes via HFL and other means has disclosed:
* he's reviewed the Brammo Enertia and numerous Zero models in the past
* he ate at Brammo's hospitality tent at Laguna Seca and visited with the Brammo folks, I believe the first ride report was arranged there
* per the Jalopnik review, he was flown to Brammo's HQ on Brammo's dime and presumably put up in a hotel also on Brammo's dime

We also know that he was given loaned a Zero DS and a quick charger for a number of weeks in his Life Electric review. Should we claim he's a Zero shill as well now?

But who knows.  If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias".   I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones.  

If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a shill, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.

Maybe Zero should send a pre-production 2013 Zero S and a quick charger for you to review and keep as a counterpart to the Empulse review. Then you could change your nick to Zerofan ; )

[ZeroSinMA]

Wes Siler does not work for Brammo.

He's not a journalist. A journalist doesn't refer to a one product he's reviewing as perfect and the other as a "loose collection of parts." He is indisputably a shill for Brammo.

Brammofan earlier refuted the bit about him working for Brammo. I'm with you at "I don't like his review, it has serious issues", but you lose me when you jump to "he must be a shill". Since you claim that his shilling is beyond dispute, do you have information on a hidden link between Brammo and Wes?

Wes via HFL and other means has disclosed:
* he's reviewed the Brammo Enertia and numerous Zero models in the past
* he ate at Brammo's hospitality tent at Laguna Seca and visited with the Brammo folks, I believe the first ride report was arranged there
* per the Jalopnik review, he was flown to Brammo's HQ on Brammo's dime and presumably put up in a hotel also on Brammo's dime

We also know that he was given a Zero DS and a quick charger for a number of weeks in his Life Electric review. Should we claim he's a Zero shill as well now?

But who knows.  If Wes was dissing Brammo and hyping up Zero; we'd probably all love him, and over on brammoforum there'd be cries of "unfair" and "bias".   I just wish he'd promote both e-moto's; we need positive stories about e-moto's not negative ones. 

If this is the way the motorcycle trade rags operate then Zero needs a shill, too, so that readers get both sides of the story.

Maybe Zero should send a pre-production 2013 Zero S and a quick charger for you to review and keep as a counterpart to the Empulse review. Then you could change your nick to Zerofan ; )

But I don't represent myself as a journalist and reviewer. I'm a Zero customer so I'm obviously biased.

No real journalist allows a manufacturer to pay for his flight, hotel, and meals for the simple reason that it creates an obligation, or at least the appearance of one, which is bad enough. His publisher pays for these to ensure that there is no obligation to the subject of the story.

Imagine a New York Times reporter going to cover a story on Brammo and allowing Brammo to pay for his trip.  Never in million years.

But Wes is not a journalist working for a newspaper. He's this new creation of the Internet that came about when self-promoting bloggers learned that no one cared whether they are biased or not. They learned that most readers don't want a well-edited, fact-checked, even-handed review or story. They want an entertaining writer who presents a point of view they are inclined to agree with. They don't want facts they want opinions. Wes's target audience is macho motorcycle riders. He makes no attempt to be even-handed because he knows his readers enjoy his contemptuous dismissal of any electric motorcycle that isn't Brammo.

Now that Wes is by reputation firmly planted in Brammo's camp, you could argue that Zero just hasn't been agressive enough at developing a Zero-promoting blogger. Or maybe Zero doesn't want to play the game of cultivating a blogger with perks. Maybe they're old school. Maybe they are aiming to get reviewed by real, credible journalsits.

[Brammofan]

No real journalist allows a manufacturer to pay for his flight, hotel, and meals for the simple reason that it creates an obligation, or at least the appearance of one, which is bad enough. His publisher pays for these to ensure that there is no obligation to the subject of the story.

Really?
While I agree with you about the New York Times and most other newspapers, motorcycle journalism has a different way of doing things.  (I'd suspect it is the same way with automobile journalism as well, but motorcycle journalism is the only industry I'm familiar with.)  Manufacturers have a long history of flying journalists from the leading magazines (Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Bike, MCN, etc) to exotic locales for lengthy road trips on their bikes, paying for track time, sometimes paying for spouses and families to accompany the journalists, providing tracksuits and other gear free of charge, etc.

As protomech stated, Zero provided Wes with a bike that he rode for about a month. 

Brammo flew a journalist from Cycle World up to their headquarters up in Ashland, Oregon, to review the Empulse a few days after Siler's trip.  These are just the two that I know of. 

The world of motorcycle journalism can only support a few writers at any time because it's not particularly lucrative.  One of the perks is that they get flown to various places by the manufacturers.  No, the publishers do not pick up the tab -- they are struggling as well.  Are the journalists expected to remain unbiased?  Yes.  Are they, in fact, unbiased?  No - probably not.  The magazines they write for have advertisers that expect to be rewarded with favorable stories. 

I suspect that bias creeps in at some point in the process, no matter what the integrity of the writer might be.  It has to go through the editor and the publisher.  A publication like Hell For Leather has fewer points of weakness than most because it does not have advertising and Siler (and the other writers) are their own editors. 

But, if it helps you cope or if it keeps you happy or whatever, ignore everything above and keep on believing that the deck is stacked in Brammo's favor and against Zero.  It may or may not be the truth.  The only reason I keep on commenting on this particular thread is to try to clear up inaccurate information like whether Siler works for Brammo, whether motorcycle journalists pay their own way (or whether their publishers do), and whether membership or participation in forums is some sort of violation of journalistic integrity.  The answer to all of the above is 'no.'

[flar]

Now that Wes is by reputation firmly planted in Brammo's camp, you could argue that Zero just hasn't been agressive enough at developing a Zero-promoting blogger. Or maybe Zero doesn't want to play the game of cultivating a blogger with perks. Maybe they're old school. Maybe they are aiming to get reviewed by real, credible journalsits.

I don't see him "firmly in Brammo's camp" at all.  I simply see the Empulse as more his kind of bike and the Zero as not.  I don't think Zero could have gotten a better review of the 2012 ZF9 out of him, given his bias, if they had flown him to the Swiss Alps and provided him with bikes for the rest of his life.  It doesn't meet his criteria.  I think he would have given a similar review to an Enertia.  He's a fan of the Empulse because they are targeting his preferences.

And, this style of polarized perspective-oriented reviews is not isolated to the blogosphere.  Top Gear is one of the top rated shows in the world and thrives on blatantly opinionated reviews (a reality that it would have served Tesla to have realized before they convinced Jeremy Clarkson to review the Roadster, unfortunately).

People can, by and large, read through hyperbole based on opinions (a few people in the Tesla forums tried to point out that they found the Top Gear review mostly positive and it actually got them interested in the Roadster because they could read through Clarkson's hyperbolic lines, but their remarks fell on the deaf ears of a fan base that felt betrayed).  It's not the ideal way to learn about a product, but unfortunately opinions make reviews more colorful and entertaining and increase their popularity - so we hone those skills and move on.