ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: pacificcricket on March 01, 2017, 02:04:39 AM
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I know this has been discussed before, and dismissed as a valid approach, but there are some interesting improvements regarding solar panel tech.
This is currently on sale for $149 after coupon : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DXYNGA0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AY5XLL1NQPR7O&tag=tbdirect-20&ascsubtag=0206f078-6967-44ac-93c2-1cef42661020 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DXYNGA0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AY5XLL1NQPR7O&tag=tbdirect-20&ascsubtag=0206f078-6967-44ac-93c2-1cef42661020)
It is 100W with dimensions of 43.3 x 22.4 x 0.1 inches and slightly under 5lb of weight. Let's say one connects 9 of these in series and then
two of these in parallel for combined 108V and 1800W. Considering that would be DC, and can go straight into the battery via AUX port,
would it get us close to 4 hours of charge time ? Would additional charge controller be needed, or BMS can take care of that ?
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I'd settle for something I could roll up that would get me 30mi of range for 2-days charging, i.e. for desert trips.
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You'd need at least 9 of those panels connected in series to get the right voltage. That would be theoretically 900W, close to what internal charger is producing. Would be a fairly small package though, under 50lb.
Edit: well, actually they say the panel produces 18V, so perhaps 6 panels in series would suffice for the correct voltage.
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I'd settle for something I could roll up that would get me 30mi of range for 2-days charging, i.e. for desert trips.
A few of these and you're good to go:
http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?fm167200_120w_foldable_solar_panel&show=product&productID=271514&productCategoryIDs=6578,6579 (http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?fm167200_120w_foldable_solar_panel&show=product&productID=271514&productCategoryIDs=6578,6579)
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I'd settle for something I could roll up that would get me 30mi of range for 2-days charging, i.e. for desert trips.
A few of these and you're good to go:
http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?fm167200_120w_foldable_solar_panel&show=product&productID=271514&productCategoryIDs=6578,6579 (http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/?fm167200_120w_foldable_solar_panel&show=product&productID=271514&productCategoryIDs=6578,6579)
Their prices are crazy in comparison though. Couldn't find their 120W one, but 60W goes for $600 :
https://www.amazon.com/PowerFilm-Foldable-Solar-Panel-Adapter/dp/B00JOOFG8O/ref=sr_1_30?m=A1VOUFSIGRIGBC&s=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1488318630&sr=1-30 (https://www.amazon.com/PowerFilm-Foldable-Solar-Panel-Adapter/dp/B00JOOFG8O/ref=sr_1_30?m=A1VOUFSIGRIGBC&s=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1488318630&sr=1-30)
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The objective is a small enough package for travel, and probably a weight limit, while still being able to put a charge on the battery.
I have two 62W panels from Global Solar. They pack down really small. Open circuit voltage is about 28VDC each. If I *had* to, what kind of boost conversion controller could I try to charge the ZF13.0 pack?
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The objective is a small enough package for travel, and probably a weight limit, while still being able to put a charge on the battery.
I have two 62W panels from Global Solar. They pack down really small. Open circuit voltage is about 28VDC each. If I *had* to, what kind of boost conversion controller could I try to charge the ZF13.0 pack?
DC to DC upconverter can bump up the voltage, but from what I understand they're not super efficient. It would probably be better just to add two more panels, so you'd have 248W at 112V.
I've checked the specs, they seem to pack small, but are fairly heavy in comparison (3lb) and are extremely expensive, $955 here :
http://www.impactbattery.com/global-solar-62-watt-desert-camo-foldable-solar-panel-p3-62.html (http://www.impactbattery.com/global-solar-62-watt-desert-camo-foldable-solar-panel-p3-62.html)
As much as it is tempting to have something that folds that small, it's not necessarily the requirement. Those that I've linked above are just a bit over 40 x 20 inches, and are semi-flexible. While it would be a bit bulky, it is still possible to carry them on the back of the bike with tail rack installed.
Also, that same company has 50W model which is roughly 24x24x0.1 inches at 2.6lb. They're just not as cost efficient.
Six of those in series gives 300W at 108V, 15lb and under $800.
$105 here :
http://www.gearbest.com/power-banks/pp_503468.html?wid=27¤cy=USD&vip=760153&gclid=CjwKEAiA3NTFBRDKheuO6IG43VQSJAA74F77Wp-cXcHNMnycu5Z0EcWAljWxmtqwTGv8HNVSGSUb8BoC4nHw_wcB (http://www.gearbest.com/power-banks/pp_503468.html?wid=27¤cy=USD&vip=760153&gclid=CjwKEAiA3NTFBRDKheuO6IG43VQSJAA74F77Wp-cXcHNMnycu5Z0EcWAljWxmtqwTGv8HNVSGSUb8BoC4nHw_wcB)
Still, I'd like to see somebody comment on the electrical side of the question. How can we hook that stuff up to the battery ? Any concerns over max current ratings on the panels ? Any additional regulation required ?
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The rated wattage is about half what you will ever see. And voltage will drop based on the sun coverage. I would say get enough in series to get about 200 volts. Because sometimes with partial shade you will have much less. If the voltage ever goes below pack voltage you will get nothing. But even in full sun at 200 volts, your line voltage will always be within a volt of you pack voltage.
I think it would be possible to charge a Zero in about a week if you were camping and carried enough roll out flex panels.
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The rated wattage is about half what you will ever see. And voltage will drop based on the sun coverage. I would say get enough in series to get about 200 volts. Because sometimes with partial shade you will have much less. If the voltage ever goes below pack voltage you will get nothing. But even in full sun at 200 volts, your line voltage will always be within a volt of you pack voltage.
I think it would be possible to charge a Zero in about a week if you were camping and carried enough roll out flex panels.
How would you connect them to the bike though ?
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Former solar engineer who now works on battery tech stuff here.
I have helped charged Zero monoliths from some solar panels before and I am currently doing another setup where I have some big panels charging batteries that I use to charge a Zero nightly. Here are some things you want to consider before attempting to charge batteries via solar panels:
1) Solar panel ratings are always optimistic, I know cause I used to work on solar modules.
2) The output power isn't a continuous rating, you will see that the panels output peak power around 11am - 1am depending on your climate and how bright it is. Hot temperature decreases power output.
3) If you don't have an MPPT controller then you aren't going to get one then your efficiency will suffer a lot. The panel's behavior is defined by it's IV curve and there is a point on that curve where it produces the most power. This is where the MPPT controller will try to keep it at. For example if the panel has a Vmp (the voltage where it produces the most power) of 17.8v and your battery can be any where from 90v to 116v and you want to have 9 panels in series, at 90v each panel will be at 10v (assume they are balanced) which is far from their the 17.8v they should be at. At 116v they would be at 12v which is still far from the 17.8v. It might be more efficient to get an MPPT controller that outputs 120vac and just use your onboard charger.
4) You need a disconnect system, meaning when the voltage gets to 116v the panel better stop providing power or else it will over charge the cells. The BMS will open the contactor some where after 117v but opening a contactor under load stress the contactor.
5) Also make sure you have a way to prevent the battery from dumping current in to the panels. Yes this happens and the panels really don't like it. Just put a nice outdoor rated blocking diode between the panel and battery. The diode will always be conducting and producing heat so you got some power lost there and you have to make sure the diode can survive the constant stress and heat.
There are other things to consider but I don't want to get into this unless people ask for it. I am not trying to discourage people from using solar panels to charge things, in fact I do it myself and I have helped other people do it. But the I am fortunate to have lots of batteries and lots of panels so efficiency isn't a big deal for me. Solar technology is moving pretty fast but it will still be awhile before we get a small and simple solution that will charge our bikes within a day or two. I wouldn't recommend any kind of camping charging solution unless you plan to be charging for 1-2 weeks. Home charging solutions aren't super hard. Just make sure you are being safe and have an electrician or someone who knows what they are doing look at it. For most people I would recommend connecting panels to an MPPT controller that outputs 120Vac and using the onboard charger because it's safer, simpler, and probably more efficient then doing DC-DC charging.
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For most people I would recommend connecting panels to an MPPT controller that outputs 120Vac and using the onboard charger because it's safer, simpler, and probably more efficient then doing DC-DC charging.
While it would be pretty straightforward to go the AC route, what would happen if your production is less than the draw of onboard charger ? My understanding is it's about 1.3kW. That's quite a few panels to haul around to get anywhere near that output.
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There are other things to consider but I don't want to get into this unless people ask for it. I am not trying to discourage people from using solar panels to charge things, in fact I do it myself and I have helped other people do it. But the I am fortunate to have lots of batteries and lots of panels so efficiency isn't a big deal for me. Solar technology is moving pretty fast but it will still be awhile before we get a small and simple solution that will charge our bikes within a day or two. I wouldn't recommend any kind of camping charging solution unless you plan to be charging for 1-2 weeks. Home charging solutions aren't super hard. Just make sure you are being safe and have an electrician or someone who knows what they are doing look at it. For most people I would recommend connecting panels to an MPPT controller that outputs 120Vac and using the onboard charger because it's safer, simpler, and probably more efficient then doing DC-DC charging.
I agree that this is still a pioneering phase, Toyota an Tesla are the only one who have something in the works right now (https://electrek.co/2017/02/28/tesla-model-3-solar-roof-panasonic/), and that is more of a ''Hey we have a glass roof anyway, might just as well shove some cells between the layers.'' product.
If you already have a Vetter fairing on your bike you could do a super long ride on PV only today:
(http://i.imgur.com/RN8W1T2.jpg)
Stick 2-3 high power flexible panels with smart stringing options on the tail and you should be able to squeeze out a few extra km per leg and there is plenty of room in the tail to store flexible panels like in the starting post. It will probably take some time to do a USA coast to coast or something but it is totally do-able today for the first pioneer that wants to make a point.
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Marking this for a wiki article since the topic is ongoing and worth tracking as it becomes more feasible. We need a similar article for household power backup.
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I agree that this is still a pioneering phase, Toyota an Tesla are the only one who have something in the works right now (https://electrek.co/2017/02/28/tesla-model-3-solar-roof-panasonic/), and that is more of a ''Hey we have a glass roof anyway, might just as well shove some cells between the layers.'' product.
If you already have a Vetter fairing on your bike you could do a super long ride on PV only today:
(http://i.imgur.com/RN8W1T2.jpg)
Stick 2-3 high power flexible panels with smart stringing options on the tail and you should be able to squeeze out a few extra km per leg and there is plenty of room in the tail to store flexible panels like in the starting post. It will probably take some time to do a USA coast to coast or something but it is totally do-able today for the first pioneer that wants to make a point.
That's not what I had in mind. The goal is not to charge the bike from solar at all times, but to charge it when it's parked by deploying the solar panels.
I was thinking something like making a solar blanket by threading a paracord through the gromets on the panels, and attaching that blanket to the handlebars and tail on one end, and to ground stakes on the other end (trying to get some 30 degree angle). The other option would be to use some kind of collapsible / folding poles.
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The possibilities are more or less endless in how you want to rig it. The blanket should work but you could also just lay it on the ground.
This thread reminds me of a solar moped that has been on the internet for ages:
(http://i.imgur.com/S2bNKlD.jpg)
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The possibilities are more or less endless in how you want to rig it. The blanket should work but you could also just lay it on the ground.
This thread reminds me of a solar moped that has been on the internet for ages:
(http://i.imgur.com/S2bNKlD.jpg)
I did some testing with a 100W panel I have. In mid Summer, around noon, I am getting about 86W when it's correctly pointed to the South at 30 degrees. When
laid flat, output goes to about 69-70W. This is in Portland, Oregon btw.
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Another solar eng. here with 40 years exp. If you're going to do the 6-9 module route then don't make a dedicated to bike charger but instead do a grid-tie and continue to charge off of 120Vac. This has multiple advantages - you can get by with far less PV wattage as it will accumulate power and credit your utility account on days when not charging. Also, when you're fully charged the PV continues to contribute to your needs or making credits. Also, go with much cheaper higher wattage modules of 260-345W that are typically used for grid connect systems, you could see 1/2 price per watt.
I live off-grid with a stand-alone battery based system (12V at 18kWh) I just added another 945W of PV to my system for a total of 4.4kW of PV. I can do a full recharge for my Zero in 1-2 days with just my surplus power without tapping my home batteries.
If one must for some reason desire a PV to bike direct then I would inquire with Zero or the charger manu if your charger can take ~120Vdc input as many AC-DC chargers can, this gets around regulation issues however, I would be very concerned about "brown outs" from passing clouds giving the charger fits.
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If one must for some reason desire
The reason being to charge while away from home, such as when camping :) I also have a 2.16kW grid-tied system at home, no need to invent the wheel there.
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Okay say you don't get any real range extension, can you effectively use the bike's battery pack as a power source and replenish the power you use?
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I am presently ( mostly ) running my 1800 sq ft home on a 4K solar panel system jerry-rigged with 24K battery pack ( 16 ten year old 12v 125 ah agm batteries ),
a 2K pure sine inverter and a 3500 modified sine inverter. The solar runs parallel to the grid with no interaction between the two systems. If it is cloudy more than
a day or two, I unplug from the inverters and back into the grid. I know that there are inverters with auto switching, but as I am not an electrition, and am doing
this mostly myself with advice from the internet, this is the way that works for me. I converted my 240v water heater to 120v. I have DC elements for the water heater but, have
not yet put them in to go direct from batteries to water heater. I ended up with this set up last year after the Public Utilities Commission decided to screw the
residents of Nevada. ( Long story, not pertinent to this thread ). I charge my electric vehicles around town and use the batteries to top them off if necessary at home.
The most efficient way to charge a Zero would probably be straight DC but, this would be more complicated and potentially more dangerous. The simple way would be to use
batteries and inverter. With DC to DC, you go directly to the battery pack with dc voltage. If you go with an inverter, panels go to batteries, batteries go to inverter,
stock charger plugs into inverter. It sounds more complicated but, nothing has to be modified on the Zero for this path.
If the charger is 80% efficient, you would need to produce around 16 KW to charge a Zero 13. There is also loss due to conversion.
DC to AC to DC. Your total output would probably need to be in the 20 KW range. A 4KW system with 5 hours of daylight should meet this need.
Be careful if deciding to go with a Net Metering Grid Tie arrangement. Many municipalities around the country are working on scrapping those agreements or
making them cost prohibitive by way of various fees. A Dedicated 4K system just for charging might be a better route, but, still probably not cost effective.
If going full solar, just add extra panels ( If allowable ) ( not allowed in NV ). Extra panels are easily added after the fact but more cost effective if done all at once.
Sorry for rambling.
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I got a reply from PowerFilm and they say as a rule they do not market any panel with a voltage over 30VDC for safety reasons. Higher voltage panel layouts are possible to produce but they would have to be sold without any electrical terminations.
That makes sense if you grab the wrong bit and the panel is rolled out it could be a nasty surprise / shock.
Also I got a reply from Genasun makers of small scale MPPT boost-capable charge controllers. Their blunt answer is yes it's a total waste of time to make a portable PV system that puts energy into a high voltage DC battery system. Anyways it was suggested that a separate 12VDC battery system to hold power for camping would be a better plan.
What is the best way to get power out of a ZF13.0 battery? Should I have the bike on and run an inverter from the DC-DC converter? Could I safely access power out of the AUX charging port?
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I got a reply from PowerFilm and they say as a rule they do not market any panel with a voltage over 30VDC for safety reasons.
I am preparing for getting a ham license (technician), and the study guide lists 30V as the smallest potentially deadly voltage.
So that kind of makes sense. Most panels seem to be intended to be connected in series anyway, as DC-AC conversion is more efficient when input DC voltage is close to output AC voltage.
Also I got a reply from Genasun makers of small scale MPPT boost-capable charge controllers. Their blunt answer is yes it's a total waste of time to make a portable PV system that puts energy into a high voltage DC battery system.
It is also a waste of time to make an electric motorcycle, why can't people just use gasoline ? :) These guys simply aren't
on the same page, and don't understand the use case.
Do we need an MPPT boost-capable charge controller, or we can get away with something simpler, like a voltage regulator of sorts ? Basically if the solar output drops beyond certain point, just cut it out completely, instead of trying to compensate.
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I don't want to tell you that you can't do something but let me explain why Genasun said it's a waste of your time to make a portable PV charging system for a Zero.
The current state of solar technology just can't produce the power to charge a Zero in a reasonable amount of time (2-3 days) and be portable and small. I know the argument here is that the technology will get better and that some day we will have panels that can supply so much power. This is true, panels will get better, but they will never get to the power level you need. The highest consumer solar cells right now are like 22% efficiency (SunPower and SolarCity cells, not counting space-space solar tech) and there are some gallium arsenide cells that approach 32% efficiency and they will get better but even at 100% efficiency it still won't be enough. This is because there is only about 1kw/m2 of solar power hitting the earth's surface, this is what people mean when they say an irradiance of "1 Sun". There are some high altitude areas where I have seen 1.2 Sun (1200kw/m2). So if you had a solar panel that rolled out to be a meter squared and had 100% efficiency (not possible btw look up Shockley–Queisser limit) you would only generate 1kwh every hour ( assuming 100% efficiency in wiring, charger, module glass, and DC-DC converter). There are only 2-3 hours in the day where you would get peak power so you would generate maybe a max of 4kwh a day. So to charge a ZF9.8 you would need a little more than two days using the 100% square meter of PV and both days would have to be fair sunny. By the time we get this 100% efficient panels battery tech will have advanced so far that you may not need to charge at all. If you still want to pursue this portable camping PV charger let me know if you make any break through because if you can generate more than 1Kw/m2 using PV I would like to invest in whatever company you plan to start.
I think your time and money is better spent on getting a fast charger and using the RV plugs at camp sites to charge. This is something I do and it works great. I just find an RV 14-50 socket and then in an hour I am almost full on my ZF9.8.
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I don't want to tell you that you can't do something but let me explain why Genasun said it's a waste of your time to make a portable PV charging system for a Zero.
As is crossing the continent on an electric motorcycle ;) It would be cool to be the first to do it on solar that you bring along.
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I don't want to tell you that you can't do something but let me explain why Genasun said it's a waste of your time to make a portable PV charging system for a Zero.
As is crossing the continent on an electric motorcycle ;) It would be cool to be the first to do it on solar that you bring along.
What an inappropriate comparison! The speed of travel implied by solar rates here means you'd probably travel faster on a bicycle and even save money.
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There's a german dealer who has a solar system running, but they use a bi-directional inverter attached to the aux port and apply voltage to the small aux contact to close the contactor. The inverter also features things like over-/undervoltage protection and more. It is programmed to a certain voltage and individual charge curves depending on the type of the battery attached.
The idea in this case is to make use of the Zero as a home storage in times when you're not using it, which at least in Germany is a major part of the year. Don't want to start a discussion here whether that makes sense or not, but it seems to work quite well.
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@Lenny sounds good, do you have more information where to buy or how to build?
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I don't want to tell you that you can't do something but let me explain why Genasun said it's a waste of your time to make a portable PV charging system for a Zero.
As is crossing the continent on an electric motorcycle ;) It would be cool to be the first to do it on solar that you bring along.
What an inappropriate comparison! The speed of travel implied by solar rates here means you'd probably travel faster on a bicycle and even save money.
If I wanted to travel cheap and fast coast to coast I'd just buy a plane ticket. This is more of a because you can scenario, pushing the envelope while having an adventure.
For example, lets take a look at the route of the World Solar Challenge:
(http://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/files/616_2015_aus_map_route.png)
Most of those legs are around 300km, with one that is 440. A full streamlined electric motorcycle should be able to do that in one charge. A Zero would be actually ridiculously overpowered to do this, IIRC most solar racers have only a 1500W motor.
But let's say you take a 8kW motor, more than enough to drive at normal road speed. You do have the sun in your back which isn't optimal but with smart placement you should be able to get 200W continuous(this is a rough eyeballed amount) while driving in good daylight and the tail has more than enough place to store 1-2kW flat panels that you can use with a proper DC-DC inverter to charge via the aux port.
Will it be cheap? No. Will it be easy? No. Will it be a cool adventure? Definitely.
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Saw this on YouTube and thought of this thread
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=b9_xXY7Ez7A
Is this possible ?
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Yes, but it will take a looong time with only one panel.
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The rule of thumb is that in bright, direct sunlight, about 1kW of light energy falls on a square meter of surface area. At 20% efficiency, a high but generally achievable number, that would mean you'd be able to collect 200W continuously. The realities of keeping the panel aimed, etc., and real-world efficiency numbers might bring that down to a more realistic 100W continuous per square meter of collecting area. I'm not sure I'd want a 1 sq-m sail on the back of my bike, but it wouldn't be THAT bad.
But that would keep you going. Not all that fast, and only while the sun is shining, but it would keep you moving. I'd bet our Zeros could maintain 35 mph on 100 watts. In ten hours, that's a 350-mile day if you never took a break (or had multiple riders riding in shifts).
Is there something wrong with the back of my envelope here?
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I think your usage estimate is way too low. Let's say you have some fairing and do 40Wh/km when riding 50km/h, you are already using 2kW continuously.
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Thank you. The number on the app is per km (or mile?), not per hour.
Okay, yeah, snot gonna work then.
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*moderator edit* was off-topic and link spam.
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Thank you. The number on the app is per km (or mile?), not per hour.
Okay, yeah, snot gonna work then.
Since this topic was kicked anyway, most ebikes are around 200-300W. Use one of those motors, narrow tires and a bit of fairing(preferably made from flexible solar) I think it should be do-able.
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100-200W? At what VDC? How do you propose taking a 12 or 24vdc solar panel, and converting it to a VDC that could charge a zero battery? Are there even inexpensive DC-DC converters at that high voltage?
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Sorry I meant drop the Zero because it isn't that efficient and use another base.
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Zero's pretty damn efficient for the speed.
You might get better efficiency at bicycle speeds.
Or with a Solar Challenge vehicle.
https://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/