ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Moidore on April 03, 2014, 02:57:10 PM
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I clicked into Zero website's accessory page and noted this paragraph on the J1772 charging adaptor/kit page:
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Please note, the SAE J1772 Charging Adapter will not speed up your motorcycle charge time, which is limited by the motorcycle's integrated charger.
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So unlike the CHAdeMO kit, the J1772 kit can only charge via the internal charger? Seems quite pointless!
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Pointless?
No not entirely. If you are travelling then finding a regular plug socket at a service station is, tricky, at best. (Aka impossible here in the UK...)
J1772 adaptors are far more common (again here in the UK there is also a Euro equivalent just to complicate matters), sure you are still charging at Level 1 standard, but at least you CAN charge... ;)
Frankly I wish the Zeros came with J1772 as standard, with an adapter for household sockets. I guess its a cost saving measure.
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Moidore,
I thought the same thing, especially when you consider how much difference an hour charging makes on the internal charger alone. However! I contacted Hollywood Electrics and they made me a J1772 adapter plug which allows me to connect not only the internal charger but I can connect two quick chargers as well. Yesterday I just strapped on one quick charger and went to the EV charging station at my local library. Plugged in both and it works well. The internal charger on the Zero's is fine for overnight charging but if you need to charge in the middle of a ride you really need to have at least one quick charger. And the Plugshare app on your smart phone is very useful to.
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+1 what ultrarnr said.
Hollywood Electrics can also set you up with an even faster Elcon 2500W charger (or two) and you can recharge even faster using J1772 plugs. I have 2 Elcon 2500W chargers and my charge time is down to 1.5 hrs from empty.
Your original point is valid though. There are plenty of external plugs "in the wild" and as long as you have permission to use one, then you are be able to charge just as easily with the regular cord instead of using a J1772 adapter with the onboard charger.
However, your life will change if you get some faster chargers...
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benswing,
How much did the ELCON 2500 watt chargers cost? With two of them have you ever had a problem pulling that much power from a J1772 plug?
Thanks,
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Each one cost about $1,000 plus about $400 for the associated wiring (splitter, J1772 plug, etc.). However, it has been amazing being able to ride out of the 'burbs, then get a charge, then ride the countryside with no range anxiety at all! It means carrying some extra weight, but it is totally worth it!
The J1772 plugs can all deliver at least 6.2kW (usually 6.6kW, and sometimes 7.2kW) and the chargers draw just under 5kW max, so getting the maximum charge is always available.
I believe Electric Cowboy is working on a charger that would sit in the place of the Power Tank of the 2014 bikes. That will be VERY interesting!
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I agree with what ultrarnr and benswing said. I as well got a J1772 and Elcon Chargers from Harlan at Hollywood Electrics. Hands down it is the most important upgrade you can do to your Zero.
The J1772 outlet can deliver 6600 watts of power. It is basically a fancy 208 volt, 32 amp plug with some protection circuits installed. But is becoming the mainstream way to source power in the wild.
I liked it so much and found so many J1772 sources in pretty much every state in America, that I installed more than one J1772, and even more Elcons. So I can pull 6600 watts from each socket I have on the bike.
Fast charging can let you go anywhere. I can't imagine riding a Zero without that capability now, I am so used to it.
The Elcons are rather expensive, but they are a much better price per watt than the Delta Q's. And much better power output per pound than the delta Q Quiq chargers. A delta Q is $599 and puts out about 850-900 watts avg and weighs 12 pounds. An Elcon puts out 2 1/2 to 3 times that power and weighs only 4 pounds more (16 pounds total) for less than twice the price.
So for about $1000 for the charger and I think about $400 for the plug and cables and connectors Harlan makes (a heck of a deal for that price!) you have a motorcycle that just became amazing. Go anywhere, do anything. With just one Elcon charger and J1772 you can cut your charge time on an 11.4 + power tank by over 6 hours!!! And you can add another to cut it down even more if you want. Everyone I know that got 1 Elcon from Harlan to start, later ordered another they loved it so much. Jeremiah Johnson uses 2 Elcons he got from Harlan to fast charge his Zero at the racetrack between sessions. Seriously we all need to thank Harlan for putting together aftermarket kits for us like this and the size 6 Sevcon kit. He is making the best electric motorcycles even better.
Download plugshare for your phone and you'll always be able to charge where ever you go quickly! Once you try it, you'd give an arm or a leg before you'd give up your ability to charge fast. Am I right Ben?
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Agreed.
Faster charging changes your ability to use the bike in more situations. You can ride longer and faster and not worry about range, which is a beautiful thing!
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I am charging at 6.6kW ( 7.5kW max) with my ultra compact diy charger on my zero S 2012:
I also made a J1772 adaptor and it work really well !
(http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3085.0;attach=1788;image)
Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAh5pDG_wU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAh5pDG_wU)
That's the real solution for travelling!
My equivalent charging speed is about 100km/h and optimum total equivalent speed ( travel at 75km/h + charging) is about 45km/h. not bad and better than the leaf and many other EV!
Doc
Here is the thread:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.0)
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Here are few specs I measured about mu diy compact charger:
TESTED results:
Fast Charger efficiency measured: 92.5% ( 6980W AC 6460W DC out)
Fast Charger Current consumption ( at max output power): 30.5A AC
Fast Charger max power output ( mean at end of charge) 6.60kW
Fast Charger Voltage output: 74.0V ( adjustable from 29 to 76.8VDC)
Fast Charger Current output: 91A (0.75C charging rate)
Fast Charger weight ( including connectors and harness): 13.4lbs
Fast charger dimensions: L 13.2" x W 5" x D 5"
Fast charger max temp ( case): 43 celsius
ZF9 battery temp at end of charge ( internal OEM temp sensor): 32 celsius
ZF9 Battery measured capacity (with 2 bar flashing on the gauge): 6600Wh
Doc
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This is awesome Doc! For long trips this year I might try to get a setup like that to boost charging speed even faster as it is lighter. But for every day charging where it rains sometimes I would be concerned about those getting a lot of water in them and still working properly. Other than that I love it! I wish there was an IP67 solution for those that added minimal weight of an enclosure and heatsink. But then again that's basically what the Elcon 2500 is I guess. Great work with this! :)
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Size comparison (http://socialcompare.com/en/tools/compare-sizes/meanwell-rsp-stack-7-5-kw-vs-elcon-pfc2500-2-5-kw-vs-delta-q-quiq-1-kw-27xhh7zb) between the chargers.
(http://i.imgur.com/JMY2W3P.png)
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...I contacted Hollywood Electrics and they made me a J1772 adapter plug which allows me to connect not only the internal charger but I can connect two quick chargers as well.
Can you paste a pic of your J1772 adaptor? Is there a retail available version or is it a once off build for you by Hollywood Electrics?
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Each one cost about $1,000 plus about $400 for the associated wiring (splitter, J1772 plug, etc.). However, it has been amazing being able to ride out of the 'burbs, then get a charge, then ride the countryside with no range anxiety at all! It means carrying some extra weight, but it is totally worth it!
The J1772 plugs can all deliver at least 6.2kW (usually 6.6kW, and sometimes 7.2kW) and the chargers draw just under 5kW max, so getting the maximum charge is always available.
I believe Electric Cowboy is working on a charger that would sit in the place of the Power Tank of the 2014 bikes. That will be VERY interesting!
I was looking for the cost of the Elcon earlier to post up a reply and came across evwest.com selling them for $730 but I assume the stock connector wouldn't work with our bikes which might explain the $270 difference.
I bet someone could squeeze a charger into the 2013 tank space as well and make in integrated. I think my charger is under there right now but wont know till the bike gets here around 4/10. ^_^
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Right, at Hollywood Electrics, they take each charger, and but two new ends on it, an Anderson connector and extension to fit the Zero motorcycle and a higher current connector, instead of the C13 connector, they install a higher amp C19 connector and give you the matching end on the J1772 side. Then they also have each one programmed for the specific charging algorithm of the Zero, and fine tune and test it. Buying the materials on your own to perform this operation yourself would easily cost more than the difference and there is no way you would do as professional a job as they do. EV west is a cool place, but if you're going to get an Elcon for the Zero, get it from Hollywood Electrics. The support you get from them on how everything works together on the Zero is always just a phone call away and they understand right away exactly what to tell you. This is priceless in my opinion.
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Moidore,
Right now my SR is in the shop to get another (and hopefully last) Power Tank installed. My J1772 adapter is on the bike as I wanted to show it to my dealer. If you look at the photo of the adapter on Zero's web site just image two more plugs coming off of it. It is probably a one off that Hollywood Electrics made. But it only took them a day to make it and it looks very well made. I looked online and while you can find J1772 plugs I never saw anything like this. Not sure the market for something like this other than for Zero's.
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Here are few specs I measured about mu diy compact charger:
TESTED results:
Fast Charger efficiency measured: 92.5% ( 6980W AC 6460W DC out)
Fast Charger Current consumption ( at max output power): 30.5A AC
Fast Charger max power output ( mean at end of charge) 6.60kW
Fast Charger Voltage output: 74.0V ( adjustable from 29 to 76.8VDC)
Fast Charger Current output: 91A (0.75C charging rate)
Fast Charger weight ( including connectors and harness): 13.4lbs
Fast charger dimensions: L 13.2" x W 5" x D 5"
Fast charger max temp ( case): 43 celsius
ZF9 battery temp at end of charge ( internal OEM temp sensor): 32 celsius
ZF9 Battery measured capacity (with 2 bar flashing on the gauge): 6600Wh
Doc
Doc, how do you manage and limit the current output on the RSP-2000 Meanwell power supplies when the battery requires constant current charging? Most switching supplies will foldback the output voltage when the current demand exceeds the maximum current output of the power supply. I am designing a current limiter circuit for my RSP-2000 units running in series but have not tested them under a battery load at this time. I would appreciate your feedback on this.
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what is fantastic is that the RSP have current limiting feature and also power limiting feature! ;) They limit to 125% rated current wich are doing it really well and I could say FOR YEARS in my situation without overheating or blowing.. these are tough!.. RSP serie rock!
read the spec you will find!
Doc
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I haven't owned my zero long enough to experiment with this but I read somewhere that the charge rate is not linear. So, if you were planning a trip that required charging, would it make sense to make your stop(s) when the battery will take a charge the fastest? I know it charges more slowly when nearly fully charged. Is the rate of charge effected when it is low?
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I haven't owned my zero long enough to experiment with this but I read somewhere that the charge rate is not linear. So, if you were planning a trip that required charging, would it make sense to make your stop(s) when the battery will take a charge the fastest? I know it charges more slowly when nearly fully charged. Is the rate of charge effected when it is low?
When I ran my battery down to zero, it took a long time to recharge. It required 8 hours of continuous charging just to get the battery pack back up to 50%. My observation is that the pack charges faster when it is not so depleted and that is supported by the Kill-A-Watt meter, which shows a power consumption of about 1150 watts when charging an empty battery, which rises to 1350 watts as the pack nears being fully charged. So it would seem that you get more charge for your time if you don't wait too long to recharge during a ride.
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I was thinking that we might be better off keeping the charge level in the sweet spot range with several stops than one long one. For example, if it charges quickly in the 25%-75% range, plan a stop before falling below 25% and don't wait around to top it off. Leave at 75%. You may only get 50 miles between stops but the total amount of charge time required to get to your destination would be minimized.
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I was thinking that we might be better off keeping the charge level in the sweet spot range with several stops than one long one.
Just FYI: Some chargers cost money, with a minimum fee plus a per-hour fee on top of the minimum. For example: $2 per hour, minimum 2 hours. Using two chargers means paying the minimum fee twice, regardless of how quickly you get enough charge to make it to your next charger or destination.
Just another tradeoff to consider between reducing time spent charging and reducing money leaving your wallet.
Still, with combo L1/L2 EVSE being replaced by L2-only EVSE in my area (including my employer's parking garage), the J1772 adapter is like an insurance policy. Even these AAA Roadside Emergency Charging trucks (http://www.plugincars.com/aaa-introduces-roadside-emergency-charging-electric-cars-107663.html) appear to support only L2 and CHAdeMO, not L1.
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Question - I was thinking about taking a regular Zero Quick Charger with me when traveling longer distances (over 75 Miles). I spoke with Charge Point and they said I could use the J1772 Charger Adapter to plug in my Zero Motorcycle into their Level 2 port and then plug in the Zero Quick Charger in the Level 1 port. Each of there charging stations typically have Level 1 and 2 Ports. The only issue is I would have to pay for each connection. That's not an issue if you are charging for 2-3 hours to get enough charge to get home. What's your thoughts - has anyone done this.
Sy
2014 DS 11.4
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Yes I have done this. First go to plugshare.com for a better picture on available J1772 outlets around you. Many allow you to charge for free. You could go to Hollywood Electrics and get a J1772 adapter that will allow you to plug both your internal charger and your Zero quick charger into a L2 J1772 outlet. Better yet get a J1772 adapter that you can plug three chargers into in case you decide to upgrade later.
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Great idea - that way you are only paying once at the charging station - if there is a cost - did you find carrying a quick charger with you beneficial? Did you attached it to your bike Or did you carry It in your luggage/storage? And what made you make the leap from carrying the quick charger to the elcon's
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Sy Gray,
When I first bought my SR I also bought 2 1000 watt quick chargers from Zero. When I first tried to charge at level 2 outlets I simply placed them in my top box. I rode up to a mall in Raleigh and had 32% charge remaining. It took 3:20 to reach 98%. It was great to test out the J1772 system but the long charge time became difficult. I looked into the Elcons which were mentioned in one of the threads here. I decided to try them to see if the charge times would be short enough to make longer trips possible/practical. From 32% the Elcons can charge to 100% in about 1:25. This is a lot more manageable than 3:20.
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Thanks Ultrarnr - I think I will have to go the way you did once I determine how far out I will typically ride. I wish Zero had more education and product offering. If it wasn't for you and this forum I would be lost
Sy
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I spoke with Charge Point and they said I could use the J1772 Charger Adapter to plug in my Zero Motorcycle into their Level 2 port and then plug in the Zero Quick Charger in the Level 1 port.
Hi Sy,
When I use a ChargePoint L1/L2 combo EVSE that costs money to use, I must swipe my RFID card* to unlock either the L1 door or the L2 holster. When I choose one, the other is locked, so I cannot access both at the same time. If I swipe the same RFID again with the intent to unlock the other charger, it is the signal to end my charging session, not begin a new charging session with the other charger. How did ChargePoint advise you to get around this problem?
I wonder if you have to open two accounts with ChargePoint so that they will issue you two different RFID cards.
* The RFID card identifies you as a customer of ChargePoint for access and billing purposes.
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Thanks,
Michael
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Hey Michael - they are sending me 2 cards (2 accounts) in order to do so :) your reasoning was correct :)
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Used to use 2 Chargepoint cards before getting a splitter from Harlan at Hollywood Electrics. Now 1 session does the trick.
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I'll speak with zero motorcycle and wow motorcycles to see if they will refund the J1772 I purchased and call Harlan and get the right one ;)
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Used to use 2 Chargepoint cards before getting a splitter from Harlan at Hollywood Electrics. Now 1 session does the trick.
I also got Harlan's J1772 adapter kit, along with a pair of 2.5kW ElCons. Still refining the bracket design to mount them on my Givi brackets... a latch mechanism is the next challenge!
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50MPH 8)
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50MPH 8)
Zero, if you're reading this forum - please make this an option for a built in charger :)
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RickSteeb,
Welcome to the world of L2 charging! Don't forget to post photos of your Zero charging at L2 charging points on Plug Share! Benswing and I have done this a lot! Also know that GE Wattstations will not allow you to charge. Most of the time on Plug Share it will say when a charging station is a GE. But the charging stations at Whole Foods are an example where it doesn't. If you look close at the photos you can tell.
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I haven't owned my zero long enough to experiment with this but I read somewhere that the charge rate is not linear. So, if you were planning a trip that required charging, would it make sense to make your stop(s) when the battery will take a charge the fastest? I know it charges more slowly when nearly fully charged. Is the rate of charge effected when it is low?
When I ran my battery down to zero, it took a long time to recharge. It required 8 hours of continuous charging just to get the battery pack back up to 50%. My observation is that the pack charges faster when it is not so depleted and that is supported by the Kill-A-Watt meter, which shows a power consumption of about 1150 watts when charging an empty battery, which rises to 1350 watts as the pack nears being fully charged. So it would seem that you get more charge for your time if you don't wait too long to recharge during a ride.
Is it not a rising voltage system when charging the battery?
If Amperage stays the same and consistent throughout most of the charge, then for voltage to rise, wattage has to rise as well?
I don't think you're observing what you think you're observing.
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I haven't owned my zero long enough to experiment with this but I read somewhere that the charge rate is not linear. So, if you were planning a trip that required charging, would it make sense to make your stop(s) when the battery will take a charge the fastest? I know it charges more slowly when nearly fully charged. Is the rate of charge effected when it is low?
When I ran my battery down to zero, it took a long time to recharge. It required 8 hours of continuous charging just to get the battery pack back up to 50%. My observation is that the pack charges faster when it is not so depleted and that is supported by the Kill-A-Watt meter, which shows a power consumption of about 1150 watts when charging an empty battery, which rises to 1350 watts as the pack nears being fully charged. So it would seem that you get more charge for your time if you don't wait too long to recharge during a ride.
Is it not a rising voltage system when charging the battery?
If Amperage stays the same and consistent throughout most of the charge, then for voltage to rise, wattage has to rise as well?
I don't think you're observing what you think you're observing.
Yes, that's correct. With a slow < 1C charge, a fixed-current charger will deliver more power into the battery as the SOC increases until it ends the bulk charge, which is typically above 90%. The bike has a slightly higher effective miles-per-hour charge rate at higher SOC, until it ends bulk charge. Probably not worth planning a trip around, but it should be slightly faster to charge 30 miles of riding if you start at 90% than if you start at 40%.
This changes when talking about a quick charge > 1C, where the charge rate is limited by battery temperature. Charging at low SOC will allow the battery to accept more current safely, and the effect is significantly more pronounced than the slow charging above.